Anti-immigration riots in South Africa

[communard resolution]

Scary. 20+ dead so far. Weird how to some fascists it's your 'race' that determines whether you're friend or foe, while to others (usually the more mainstream ones) it's your citizenship. National Bolsheviks in Russia claim dark-skinned Russians can still be 'good Russians' as long as they're non-immigrants and nationalists. Despite their antisemitic history, the BNP in the UK now have Jewish councillors while agitating against Muslim and Eastern European immigrants with old-school fascist fervour. Just shows how arbitrary the targeting of minorities is.

But I'm drifting off topic. I read a lot of news reports on the events in South Africa today, but I haven't been clued up about the broader background at all. Does anyone know more about the situation in South Africa? Who are the instigators that provide the rioters with the 'theorerical framework' for their actions? What political parties and what media agitate against immigrants in SA? Surely these scumbags didn't all wake up one morning and decided they hated immigrants so much they would have to go out and murder them? What broader political climate has contributed to making these sad events happen?

[mykittyhasaboner]

the mobs were angered mainly at the recent plentiful immigrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique. supposedly the recent high rate of immigration have resulted in a decline of jobs available for South African citizens, and a higher crime rate too. the mobs mainly attacked neighborhoods that where predominately made up of immigrants from the 2 countries mentioned above.

[rampantuprising]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't engish the official language of south africa? if europeans have been residing in south africa for this long, then why the hostility towards immigrants from zimbabwe and mozambique?

[communard resolution]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't engish the official language of south africa? if europeans have been residing in south africa for this long, then why the hostility towards immigrants from zimbabwe and mozambique?

I guess people are happy when they find somebody even lower in the social hierarchy than themselves who they can shit on. An oppressed moron is still a moron, an oppressed fascist is still a fascist.

[turquino]

This could be a failure of the left. Properly focused, their anger should be directed against the capitalist system responsible for their unemployment. What makes it especially troubling is that this phenomenon is not isolated, nor is it confined to Azania. In many areas of the world revolutionary right-wing ideas have replaced the left as the popular opposition to global capitalism.

[mykittyhasaboner]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't engish the official language of south africa? if europeans have been residing in south africa for this long, then why the hostility towards immigrants from zimbabwe and mozambique?
the nationalist attitude towards immigrants from other parts of africa most likely is a product of the "westernization" of south africa. think about it, the average working class south african must think they are better then these "petty immigrants" who are taking their jobs. the same thing is happening in the US. mainly the mexican immigrants who work for next to nothing. im sure its the same case in south africa. plus i think most of the rioters were africans, not europeans. to simply put it, nationalism is at fault here. where ever wealthy capitalist nations go, nationalism follows.

[mykittyhasaboner]

i know its BBC but the video gives a decent visual interpretation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7407914.stm


I guess people are happy when they find somebody even lower in the social hierarchy than themselves who they can shit on. An oppressed moron is still a moron, an oppressed fascist is still a fascist.
indeed, it seems to me the rioters must have been angered by something more than lack of jobs. a foreigner was wrapped in a blanket and burned alive....wow. this is reminiscent of brutal ethnic conflict, rather than xenophobia.

[Mujer Libre]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't engish the official language of south africa? if europeans have been residing in south africa for this long, then why the hostility towards immigrants from zimbabwe and mozambique?

English is one of 11 official languages.

And yes, Europeans have been in South Africa since the 17th century. However, the hostility towards other African migrants (which is a relatively recent phenomenon, obviously, having begun since the demise of apartheid) is something generally common to ALL South Africans, regardless of their ethnic background.

There are the usual stereotypes about "thieving Zimbabweans/Mozambiquans/Zanzibari's" or about them "taking our jobs." Basically the worst of the ill-feeling towards these people come from the South African working class (who are majority Black, obviously) who feel that their livelihood, already incredibly tenuous thanks to the injustices of capitalism, is being further jeopardised by the presence of more competition for jobs.

Of course that doesn't excuse violence against people who've come to South Africa in search of a better life, it just provides a social context. It's particularly sad that people are reacting to their situation with violent nationalism, rather than anger directed at capitalism and a government that has completely sold out to capitalism, at the expense of its workers.

[communard resolution]

the nationalist attitude towards immigrants from other parts of africa most likely is a product of the "westernization" of south africa. think about it, the average working class south african must think they are better then these "petty immigrants" who are taking their jobs. the same thing is happening in the US. mainly the mexican immigrants who work for next to nothing. im sure its the same case in south africa. plus i think most of the rioters were africans, not europeans. to simply put it, nationalism is at fault here. where ever wealthy capitalist nations go, nationalism follows.

That makes a lot of sense. It would also explain the rampant xenophobia in former Eastern Block countries such as Poland, Russia, and East Germany. Friends from East Germany are telling me xenophobia was never an issue in Eastern Block days although they did have a Vietnemese immigrant community even then. That changed drastically when capitalism was introduced overnight. In Russia racism and xenophobia are even worse, possibly because capitalism there is a lot more reckless, laissez-faire and anti-social. I'd like to take this opportunity to once again refer everybody to my "Russian neo-nazi murder" thread and encourage everybody to organize demonstrations near their local Russian embassies - this is an important issue and, as in South Africa, a matter of life and death. We can't wait for the revolution to happen until we start acting about this.

However, I'd like to know more specifically about the 'Westernisation' of South Africa and the current political conditions. Also, whose rhetoric was it that led to last weekend's acute situation? Could somebody clue me up or refer me to a good source of information?

[BobKKKindle$]

The Anti-Privatization Forum (APF) has called for a solidarity march to demonstrate the common interests of South African workers and the immigrant community - this will give the people who oppose the recent violence an opportunity to make their voices heard, and so it is important that this march takes place.

This violence is an expression of popular unrest as a result of the lack of employment opportunities, and the failure of successive governments to address the concerns of ordinary people who have not been able to benefit from economic growth - and these events affirm the need for a vanguard party which is able to engage with the working class, and provide a radical program based on a recognition of the need for solidarity between all workers, regardless of nationality.

Why does no vanguard currently exist?

[Revolutiondownunder]

The Anti-Privatization Forum (APF) has called for a solidarity march to demonstrate the common interests of South African workers and the immigrant community - this will give the people who oppose the recent violence an opportunity to make their voices heard, and so it is important that this march takes place.

Good to hear.. The pictures of people being burnt alive are horrible, I never could believe that something like this could happen in South Africa. I thought the ANC were socialist [yes I know different now].


Why does no vanguard currently exist?

Are there socialists still in the ANC

[redSHARP]

i always viewded the ANC as a blotted shell of it former self (i still love mandela). are the commies still outlawed?
this could destroy all the progress that SA has made after the fall of apartheid. with tourists scared, the economy will suffer and the worst case senario for SA (among others), would be the world cup being moved, which could have farther reaching effects than just the cup moving. its sad to see such a great land be on the brink.

[Devrim]

i always viewded the ANC as a blotted shell of it former self (i still love mandela). are the commies still outlawed?

Er...no, the SACP is in government with the ANC.

Devrim

[communard resolution]

i always viewded the ANC as a blotted shell of it former self (i still love mandela). are the commies still outlawed?
this could destroy all the progress that SA has made after the fall of apartheid. with tourists scared, the economy will suffer and the worst case senario for SA (among others), would be the world cup being moved, which could have farther reaching effects than just the cup moving. its sad to see such a great land be on the brink.

Apparently, South Africa still has one of the highest unemployment rates in the world. Depending on the source, it's between 30% and 40% for black South Africans, dunno about the overall rate. Makes me wonder about the 'socialist' credentials of the ANC and the 'greatness' of the land.

[communard resolution]

Er...no, the SACP is in government with the ANC.

Devrim

This is what Mandela has to say about the SACP in his autobiography: "There will always be those who say that the Communists were using us. But who is to say that we were not using them?"

Looking through earlier threads on South Africa, it seems that the ANC are a corrupt capitalist clique who lost whatever socialist credentials they had long before power was handed over to them by the National Party/Apartheid regime. The National Party wouldn't have handed over their power had the ANC posed any kind of serious threat to the bourgeoisie. Apparently, the ANC have since demonstrated that they're even more capitalist than the National Party by privatizing state-owned industries on a massive scale. Small wonder South Africa's socialist movement have chosen to go by the name Anti Privatisation Forum.

Haven't the ANC even merged with the remains of the National Party back in 2005?

It appears that the liberalization of the country in 1994 and the ANC's "socialism" were one big sham. I wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out that it was the ANC and their media who agitated against immigrants, scapegoating them for the ill-effects of their economic policies same as capitalist governments do in most countries in the world (in ever-so-subtle ways). However, I haven't got enough info on this and can't be sure - hence my original question if anyone knows who's behind the political climate that led up to last weekend's tragic events.

[Revolutiondownunder]

Looking through earlier threads on South Africa, it seems that the ANC are a corrupt capitalist clique who had lost whatever socialist credentials long before power was handed over to them by the National Party/Apartheid regime. The National Party wouldn't have handed over their power had the ANC posed any kind of serious threat to the bourgeoisie. Apparently, the ANC have demonstrated that they're even more capitalist than the National Party by massively privatizing state-owned industries. Small wonder South Africa's socialist movement have chosen the name Anti Privatisation Forum.

Sad to hear, esp considering how the broad left came out in mass numbers to help put pressure on aparthied.

Mandela is such a heroic figure I guess I just wanted everyone else in South Africa to be like him.

[communard resolution]

Sad to hear, esp considering how the broad left came out in mass numbers to help put pressure on aparthied.

Mandela is such a heroic figure I guess I just wanted everyone else in South Africa to be like him.

Yeah, but as my Mandela quote demonstrates, he wasn't a real leftist, he was just using leftists. Judging by the relatively little information I have got, Mandela helped create a country comparable to the UK: one that is nice and liberal and 'multicultural', but also savagely capitalist and turning against the lowest in the social hierarchy (in SA's case: Zimbabwean immigrants) the moment the economic ill-effects of capitalism become too apparent.

[Mujer Libre]

Some have suggested that there is a "third force" operating to incite these riots (I think that would be white supremacists such as the shadowy group known as the Broederbond if there is such a third force.)

However, someone from CNN (of all places) got it right when she said on Australian SBS news that the underlying cause of these riots is the suffering of the working poor, and the complete lack of delivery of change on the part of the ANC- rather than any deliberate anti-immigrant stirring, and that bring in the issue of a "third force" (whether made up of racists or the ANC) clouds the issue by taking the focus off the underlying causes.

[communard resolution]

Some have suggested that there is a "third force" operating to incite these riots (I think that would be white supremacists such as the shadowy group known as the Broederbond if there is such a third force.)

However, someone from CNN (of all places) got it right when she said on Australian SBS news that the underlying cause of these riots is the suffering of the working poor, and the complete lack of delivery of change on the part of the ANC- rather than any deliberate anti-immigrant stirring, and that bring in the issue of a "third force" (whether made up of racists or the ANC) clouds the issue by taking the focus off the underlying causes.

But that would imply that the South African working poor somehow 'naturally' or 'automatically' turned against Zimbabwean immigrants in reaction to the government's economic policies? This doesn't make any sense. To my knowledge, this would be the first time in history that xenophobic or racist pogroms occur without prior systematic agitation. I find that very, very hard to believe.

[Mujer Libre]

Caligula- that's ridiculous! Where's your historical evidence? Are you saying that the working class has only ever held discriminatory attitudes because they were directly pushed in that direction by the ruling class?

That's a ridiculously reductionist view.

I think it's self-evident in situations like this that the working class of south africa are in such a marginal position, due to the fact that the ANC has wholeheartedly embraced capitalism, and that is what has created this xenophobic climate.

Can you see the difference? Things aren't always black and white, you know?

[communard resolution]

Caligula- that's ridiculous! Where's your historical evidence? Are you saying that the working class has only ever held discriminatory attitudes because they were directly pushed in that direction by the ruling class?

That's a ridiculously reductionist view.

I think it's self-evident in situations like this that the working class of south africa are in such a marginal position, due to the fact that the ANC has wholeheartedly embraced capitalism, and that is what has created this xenophobic climate.

Can you see the difference? Things aren't always black and white, you know?

No, I'm saying that I wouldn't know of any large-scale xenophobic or racist pogroms in history that were not preceded by some sort of build-up, be it xenophobic statements made by politicians or a systematic media campaign. I haven't collected any historical evidence for this as I was never asked to prove what seems like a fairly common mechanism to me. In any case, the 'historical evidence' you are asking for would require from me to list all pogroms that ever occurred in history, no? That seems like a lot of work. You, however, are welcome to cite that one famous historic example where people turned against their brothers and sisters without having been agitated by the ruling class first.

I don't believe people arrive at the conclusion "it's the immigrants' fault" by themselves when enduring a situation of economic hardship - it's an absurd line of thinking, and one which they are compelled to adopt by the ruling class. I'm not sure if the working class has never held discriminatory attitudes without being pushed, directly or indirectly, but I would guess they haven't. Not strongly enough to make them go and murder people, for sure. Xenophobic and racist views don't really make any sense and are not a natural train of thought to take - they don't come out of nowhere.

I completely agree with you that the ANC's embracement of capitalism has created a climate of anger and desperation - I am not trying to disassociate the pogroms from that, on the contrary. I just think that in such situations, what usually happens is that the ruling class will do their best to direct people's anger at minorities (immigrants, Jews, Muslims, ...) to distract from the true causes. My impression is that it has always been like that (please don't ask me to provide evidence for all cases in history when this occurred), and I don't see why it shouldn't be the case this time around. Even the Nazis attempted to make the Kristallnacht pogroms look like "a spontaneous outbreak of the people's anger", and I'm sure these days the ruling classes have more sophisticated ways of doing so.

I don't see what is "ridiculous" about my view?

[MarxSchmarx]

updating all that there were counter-demonstrations today denouncing the anti-immigrant violence::)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/25/content_8248402.htm

[Cheung Mo]

The Anti-Privatization Forum (APF) has called for a solidarity march to demonstrate the common interests of South African workers and the immigrant community - this will give the people who oppose the recent violence an opportunity to make their voices heard, and so it is important that this march takes place.

This violence is an expression of popular unrest as a result of the lack of employment opportunities, and the failure of successive governments to address the concerns of ordinary people who have not been able to benefit from economic growth - and these events affirm the need for a vanguard party which is able to engage with the working class, and provide a radical program based on a recognition of the need for solidarity between all workers, regardless of nationality.

Why does no vanguard currently exist?

The fact that the "Communist" Party is in coalition with an ANC that has privatised the shit of everything (making me wonder why the likes of Reagan and Thatcher supported Apartheid to begin with) at a rate that would have made even Mike Harris' head spin isn't helping things much.

[Revolutiondownunder]

Some have suggested that there is a "third force" operating to incite these riots (I think that would be white supremacists such as the shadowy group known as the Broederbond if there is such a third force.)

.

Is that plausible?

What are the white working class doing in South Africa now? I saw on SBS that they are complaining a lot, but wouldnt the government break up any racist organisations?:confused: