The Machine is after us... - Oh, come on guys, stop lying to

[Hattori Hanzo]

Is anyone else sick of the endless commercials? Cars that consume the world's natural resources, a military that bullies the poor nations of the world, bankers thirsting for money?

My good friend mentioned the other day something very true- the national bird should not be an Eagle, rather it should be a vulture

[Mazdak]

Yes, but the eagle is perfect. It represents imperialism. the eagle bullies all other birds.

[Nateddi]

Whats wrong with imperialism, mazdak?

[Pinko]

The American Eagle is the perfect symbol of the USA, it has been driven to near extinction by the actions of the very country that uses its image as its emblem.

They rape the land and kill the people. Their time must end.

[Anonymous]

I heard the turkey was originally going to be the national bird. However, I think the Eagle suits us just fine.


BTW, what IS wrong with a little imperialism? :smile:

[Pinko]

[Dark Capitalist]
"BTW, what IS wrong with a little imperialism?"

By its very nature, imperialism supresses the people of the target nation. It limits freedom and imposes others' views on an often incompatible culture. Imperialism ammounts to nothing more than conquest.

(Edited by Pinko at 4:35 am on Aug. 31, 2002)

[Ymir]

LoL Dark Capitalist I can imagine you at some high school party saying "But, what IS wrong with a little crack?"

[canikickit]

BTW, what IS wrong with a little imperialism?

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas;
broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence

Imposition:
an excessive or uncalled-for requirement or burden

I don't think much more needs to be said on that.

Jesus! Were you people serious? I hope not (more for your sake than mine).

[Tkinter1]

"My good friend mentioned the other day something very true- the national bird should not be an Eagle, rather it should be a vulture"

variant of definition of vulture:
"A person of a rapacious, predatory, or profiteering nature."

In many cases a true statement about humanity itself. But in all reality, that really doesn't sum up what the U.S. is all about, or what it WANTS to be. Instead of working to end the government, why not work to end the problems the government has. becuase right now, your just another one of the governments problems.

[Exploited Class]

It is every Americans's dream to own everything no matter what the consequences. Hurts the enviroment, screw the enviroment and those tree huggy hippies. Hurts a poorer nation, screw them too. Might is right.

Give us any reason, no matter how unreasonable or absurbed to believe that we are right and we will run with it. Volcanoes do more damage than cars? Really? Sweet, I'll own a SUV then with a clear concious.

We need to be hit with product ad after ad. How else will we know how to spend all this lovely money? Even if it intrudes into every pocket of my society, from stadium names to pop up banners. I need it all. Free does not survive in this society unless you bought 2 at a higher price to offset the free one you will recieve.

[Tkinter1]

"It is every Americans's dream to own everything no matter what the consequences."

Thats a pretty unintelligent statement, with no real truth.

"Hurts the enviroment, screw the enviroment and those tree huggy hippies. Hurts a poorer nation, screw them too. Might is right."

Why do you keep generalizing a nation with no real facts to back you up.

[Pinko]

[Tkinter1]
"------------
"It is every Americans's dream to own everything no matter what the consequences."

Thats a pretty unintelligent statement, with no real truth.

"Hurts the enviroment, screw the enviroment and those tree huggy hippies. Hurts a poorer nation, screw them too. Might is right."

Why do you keep generalizing a nation with no real facts to back you up.
----------"

The facts speak for themselves.
The USA is a capitalist state, the natural extension of this is a corporate state where everything is owned and controlled by one company. The US is already well on the path to this end, its policies are increasingly dictated by big business. Companies are renowned for bending or breaking the law to achieve their aims and they are renowned for getting away lightly with it.

Environmentalists are often depicted as delusional liars, even in the face of incontravertible evidence. Big business commisions research of its own to give the results of its choosing (anyone remember the various scientific reports saying the tabacco isn't harmfull?). People with evidence proving corporate wrongdoing are often blackmailed, bought off or (in extreme cases) disappeared. The US government is letting oil, mining and logging companies dictate its environmental policies.
The poorer nations often suffer under the actions of US policy. Steel tariffs, tax breaks for exporters, banana wars, the farcical drug war. Globalisation and free trade are shitting on smaller developing countries, GATTS agreements are harming everyone but the western world, genetics corporations are selling self-terminating seed to third world farmers to ensure their future custome, sustainability is being systematically stripped away from the developing world, only to be replaced with dependance on the US. This fosters the increase of thirdworld debt, because they need to borrow money to cope with their new found dependancies.
The USA is keeping the developing world poor and syphoning off the money that it would otherwise use to develop into its corporate pockets and the US government is complict by facilitating and even encouraging these actions.

[Tkinter1]

"Companies are renowned for bending or breaking the law to achieve their aims and they are renowned for getting away lightly with it"

Long prison sentences don't seem that light to me. And its corrupt CEO's that usally are to blame. Not every company is corrupt.

"Environmentalists are often depicted as delusional liars, even in the face of incontravertible evidence"
What are you talking about?
A new hybrid car was developed (i forget by who) which ran on half fuel half elctric power. There are several power plants in my area which use wind and other less damaging fuels. Also commericals run quite often telling us to turn off our lights when not using them to conserve power, and the consequences of not doing so. I dont know where you are getting the idea that all enviromentalists are looked upon as dillusional liars. I even had an eviromental group come to my door a few months ago asking for support. I signed there petition and gave 20 dollars.

I'll address the rest later

[Pinko]

"Long prison sentences don't seem that light to me. And its corrupt CEO's that usally are to blame. Not every company is corrupt. "

I am not talking about financial fraud, which in a capitalist society tends to attract large prison sentances. I am talking about corporate manslaughter, deliberate flouting of environmental laws and willful neglect leading to environmental catastrophe. These crimes tend to result in nothing more than insulting fines.

"A new hybrid car was developed (i forget by who) which ran on half fuel half elctric power. There are several power plants in my area which use wind and other less damaging fuels.
These are all old technologies. Electric cars and petrol burning cars that will do in excess of 250 miles to the gallon, Hyrox fuel cells, effiecient engine parts, solar powered cars. Many of these technologies have been invented by or bought up by the Petro-chem companies which have susequently supressed them.
Promising methods of curing various diseases get sabotaged and their inventors hounded and persecuted. Do you really think that the pharmacutical companies have any interset at all in seeing cancer cured? Or the Petrochem companies having an interest in finding an alternative to petrol burning cars?

Wake up sunshine, this crap has been happening for decades.

What about the Bush administrations stance on global warming? No proof? Really? More like various campaign donors pressuring them because they would end up taking a profit hit if legislation was introduced to reign them in. Clinton was no better (even though he liked to think he was).

[Tkinter1]

"Do you really think that the pharmacutical companies have any interset at all in seeing cancer cured?"
I happen to have 2 good friends who have fathers who work to find cures for AIDS and cancer. Not only would the discovers cure millions and write their names in history, they would also make money off of it....hmmmm.

" Or the Petrochem companies having an interest in finding an alternative to petrol burning cars? "

corn ethanol is one bud http://www.ontariocorn.org/envfuel_home.htm

"I am talking about corporate manslaughter, deliberate flouting of environmental laws and willful neglect leading to environmental catastrophe"

It isn't only the U.S. that perpetrates these acts, this kind od stuff exists, but its a result of corruption not of capitalistic inborn trates. So stop throwing it all on the U.S. and using it as a scapegoat for all eviromental law breakings(I dont think eviromental laws exist in some underdeveloped countrys).

"Wake up sunshine, this crap has been happening for decades."

Standing idlely by complaining doesn't solve the problem. I am confident that these type of things will end or at least diminish significantly, as does everything that is harmful to man.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 4:24 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Pinko]

"Not only would the discovers cure millions and write their names in history, they would also make money off of it....hmmmm. "

There is not money in a cure, the money is in treatments. Think about it, you cure someone and they go away a happy person never to come back. You treat the illness to keep it in remission or just prolong the lifespan and improve the quality of life, then they keep comming back month after month for their bucket load of expensive pills.

"corn ethanol is one bud..."

As I said, old news. Why are they not on the market? Ethanol burning cars have been around since the seventies, why are they not redily avaliable with fuel stations selling volatile alcohols on every other street corner? Because there is not economic reason for the petro-chem companies to change the status-quo.

"It isn't only the U.S. that perpetrates these acts, this kind od stuff exists, but its a result of corruption not of capitalistic inborn trates..."

True, the UK is a prime example of letting companies get away with murder (literally). It happens the world over. But capitalist societies strive toward total efficiency. It cost money to safely dispose of toxic waste, why not just let it slip into the local river? It is more cost effective that way.
Yes it is corrupt individuals that perpetrate these crimes, but it is capitalism that encourages the corruption in the first place, with its drive for financial efficency.

Let me tell you a little story. I used to work in a quality control laboratory. I was cleaning out the store room one day and amassing some old chemicals that were no longer used and therfore needed to be disposed of. I went to my boss and informed him of this, "chuck it all down the drain, what do you think we are? made of money?" he said. They stayed in the storeroom.
A few months later I was asked to put 200 litres (440 pints) down the lab sink and the drain. Upon enquiring why I was informed that the Water authority was comming to test the drains so he wanted them clean so as to not incurr fines.
Needless to say, I don't work there anymore.

"I dont think eviromental laws exist in some underdeveloped countrys"

Hahahaha. We keep trying to change this, but multinationals keep lobbying governments to water down or abandon the measures. What do you think is happening in South Africa right now?

"Standing idlely by complaining doesn't solve the problem. I am confident that these type of things will end or at least diminish significantly, as does everything that is harmful to man."

Oh, things change. But the rate of change is slowing with each passing year. The tighter the grip of capitalism, the harder it becomes to change.

Take a look at this. (http://www.redpepper.org.uk/intarch/x-bushlist.html)
I am particularly worried about the number of environmental issues on this list.
You might find number 4 rather poiniant.




(Edited by Pinko at 5:04 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

Its eventually going to come down to us HAVING to use other forms of fuel as our fossil fuel reserves become non existent, or too expensive. Change is going to be neccesary very soon. It's soon going to become cheaper and more efficent for the petrol and fossil fuel companies to use other fuels. Why wouldn't they switch then?

"There is not money in a cure, the money is in treatments. Think about it, you cure someone and they go away a happy person never to come back."

People will still get cancer and aids regardless of a cure(smoking, poor sexual precautions, etc), meaning the need to produce and sell more of the cure will always be present. It costs money to treat cancer and AIDS patients, why do you think they 'pull the plug'.

"Let me tell you a little story. I used to work in a quality control laboratory. I was cleaning out the store room one day and amassing some old chemicals that were no longer used and therfore needed to be disposed of. I went to my boss and informed him of this, "chuck it all down the drain, what do you think we are? made of money?" he said. They stayed in the storeroom.
A few months later I was asked to put 200 litres (440 pints) down the lab sink and the drain. Upon enquiring why I was informed that the Water authority was comming to test the drains so he wanted them clean so as to not incurr fines.
Needless to say, I don't work there anymore."

I hope you reported him.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 5:32 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Pinko]

You have a better view of human nature than me. Maybe I am just a hopeless cynic.
I find the following phylosophy in life works quite well:
If you expect the worst from people, then you will rarely wrong (and never dissapointed).

Did you check out that link?

(Edited by Pinko at 5:34 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

yea but it looks like speculation to me. I wouldn't be suprised though if alot of what is on that site is true, or true to an extent. Hey, we only have a few years of him left, man kind has endured much worse. I think we can make it.

"If you expect the worst from people, then you will rarely wrong (and never dissapointed)."

Its true, but what if you ARE wrong, and you get better than what you expected. I do, more often than not.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 5:42 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Pinko]

"Its true, but what if you ARE wrong, and you get better than what you expected."

Then I am pleasantly suprised and it brightnes my day.

(Edited by Pinko at 6:03 am on Sep. 2, 2002)