new democracy
30th August 2002, 15:44
[Malte says]
If you would take advantage of the Mao cult to get people interested in communism or leftist politics in general, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That's not my point. My point was that you are claiming to know the entire tuth about everything, and that only the MIM stands for true communism or even true Maoism (your organisation is acuusing even other Maoist groups to be "crypto-trotzyists"!), and so every true communist has to join your tiny sect. That's what is pissing me so much about you.
[New Democracy says:]
"i am not an ex maoist!!!! i am not even a member in new democracy because i am in israel!!!!! i just believe in thier ideology!!!! and yes, when i first saw their website i thought they were maoist because i already knew about mao new democracy!!!!! do you compare new democracy to nazis!? your comrades in germany turning nazi as we speak!!!!!! and if you look in my thread "why maoism is the same as nazism" you would see that maoism is almost the same as nazism!!!!!"
" maoist3, you have to understand that: china was a dictatorship of one man, not the proletariat. just like in every communist country. if you and your cult members could travel back in time and live in mao china, they would abandon maoism. admiring mao is the same as admiring nixon. or almost the same as admiring hitler. supporting maoism it is supporting the oppression of other cultures(tibet, manchuria). you see, maoism is fascism. you will abandon maoism one day. what you will become? i don't know, but i hope you will not be a nazi. from what we see in peru, maoists oppress people even before they got power. i mean, shining path attacks citizens, use trug trade, and they are just a strong cult. "
[new democracy says:]
in both there is a totalitarian government. both oppress minorities(mao: tibet, manchuria) hitler(jews, gipsies, slavs, etc). both use personality cult. both use very cruel methods against their opponents. both killed millions of people(only mao killed more). both persecute gays. both conquered countries(mao conquered tibet and a small part of india). both ban religion. many maoists turn nazi in germany. both maoist and nazis arguments make no sense. maoists support stalin and everybody here(except the stalinists) say that stalinism is the same as fascism. pol pot was a maoist and he oppressed minorities too and killed allot of people. anyone wnat to back me up here?
[new democracy says:]
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Quote: from new democracy on 5:03 pm on Aug. 29, 2002
and why dont you put your fucking ugly face in your mother pussy you fucking stalinist shit!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the same goes to maoist3!!!!
[malte says]
Maoist, I know I can't really accuse you that, but how came that so many Maoists are turning Nazi's? Especially in Germany, some leading Neo-Nazi's were Maoists before. Well, I would say they just changed their leader, not much of their ideology. The "volkish" thinking is the same. (there is no English word for "Volk" or "völkisch", so I had to invent one, I hope you understand what I mean).
[new democracy says]
and here is a question to maoist3: do you post when you high? because your posts make no sense!!!
[another quote from new democracy]
here is a list of members that i think going to sell out:
maoist3
[another quotes from new democracy]
"i think that maoist3. i mean you saw what happens to maoists in germany. they turn nazi!!!! "
"i dont that maoist3 truly believe what he say, so i think he is one of the firsts to sell out. probably he will become a nazi. "
"he lies to himself. deep inside he knows that. mark my words, he will leave maoism one day!!!!! and maybe he is not going to be a nazi. maybe he will become a memeber in new democracy . "
"i cant wait to see maoist3 reply for my posts. it wil be probably like this: "maoist3 replies for m.i.m: long live marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! long live stalin!!!!! now pray for mao nd!!!!!!you will die in maoist hell!!!! you are a cappy!!!!!! long live communist party of peru!!!!! death to the opponents of marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!!!aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!"
[new democracy says]
"and to maoist3: fuck marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! fuck shining path!!!!! fuck communist party of nepal(maoist)!!!!! fuck Maoist Internationalist Movement!!!! fuck stupid maoists!!!!! fuck revolutionary communist party usa!!!!!!! fuck stalin!!!!! fuck stalinism!!!!! fuck pol-pot!!!!!! fuck kim il sung!!!!! fuck nazism(which is the same as maoism)!!!!!!!!! "
"maoist3 an asshole!!!!! maoist3 is a big fucking maoist dick!!!! "
[new democracy says]
"look who is here!!! maoist3!!! my favorite cult member!!! "
"IF YOU ASK ME MAOIST3 IS AN EXEMPLE OF HOW MAOISM IS A CULT. I REMEMBER THAT IN MY THREAD "PEOPLE WAR IN PERU" WHEN I CONDEM SHINING PATH HE SAID THAT I SUPPORT CAPITALISM WHEN I AM ANTI CAPITALIST. HE DID NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR DRUG TRADING, ATTECKS ON CIVILIANS, AND THEIR BRUTALITY. THEY ALSO ACT CRASY IF YOU SAID "SHINING PATH" INSTEAD OF COMMUNIST PARTY OF PERU. "
"i must say that i read m.i.m program and its sound like m.i.m is more a cult than an ideological organization "
"well as long as we talk about tibet: maoism=nazism!!!"
[peaccenicked says]
" Your surveys are untruthful, I dont trust them at all.
All you are showing is slavish blind faith.
A materialist starts with reliable sources.
Everything not stalinist is CIA in your ficticious nightmare. What sources would you accept because if you really want to know I will give you as much trustworthy information as I have cross referenced, but I think is pointless you are not interested in anything outside your idealised class identity.
Frankly I think you dont give a shit. "
"meoewvist dead head
How does a few social gains for women add up to support of mass murder. You are just a fucking idiot.
I suggest you stay out my face."
"Moaist3, you braindead, jack-in-the box, economic improvements in the Stalinist world have less to do with positive socialism than a lack of BEING PLUNDERED BY imperialism.
Politics is ugly and if anybody is serving capitilism here it is you, who is all just words, bullshit words.
Your principles are anti socialist and you let the cat out of the bag everytime you open that big shithole of yours that you have nothing to offer democracy.
Indeed you scoff at democracy and equate state murder
with social gains.
The idealism of giving Stalinism a honorable place in proletarian history is the one that drowns your idiocy in the here and now, internationally.
The dustbin of history is truly yours.
Stalinism is a worse ideology than capitalism because it paints the liberation of the working class as the callous disregard for human life for economic gain. Capitalism merely
tries to tie its interests with workers interests.
Moaist3 is an outright enemy of the working class.
His/hers fake 'socialism' serves to keep the workers ideologically tied to capitalism and HOSTILE TO SOCIALISM. "
"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: from maoist3 on 6:00 am on Aug. 12, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My goal is communism and you either do not
share that goal or think it is self-defeating.
However, if it will make you feel better,
I will direct the same question as before, but
to YOU, but I warn you that since
you don't care about the common man
the way a communist does, this is not
likely to satisfy you much. How's that.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K18832071
That's
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/life...xpectussr2.html (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/lifeexpectussr2.html)
My question is now a DEMAND. Show me
somewhere, something better in all of world
history for the common man up to the year 1950.
Spare me your sophisms, and show me.
(Edited by maoist3 at 6:08 am on Aug. 12, 2002)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is all you provide and have provided to defend stalinism. Comparative death rates. This indicator says what Stalinism outdid Capitalism for a certain period of time in this area.
Join the Capis on this board who say the US is doing more for the common man than communism did for anyone. Economic criterion alone is not enough.
The crudity of your communism is sickening.
The political culture of the population is the first measure of socialism.
Eating under mass ideological slavery is not the same as eating under freedom be it stalinist or capitalist.
You want a ''communism'' of well kept prisoners.
Really, I think you are sick through and through.
Socialism is a form of organisation in which the proletariat become the ruling class.
This was not evidated in soviet Russia. Lenin called it a peasants and workers state with gross bureauctatic deformations. Stalin only made these deformations worse.
What in hell is that got to do with socialism or proletarian rule?
-----
The question I put is : Is there any dignity in becoming a member of a BB which is dedicated to the memory of Che Guevara and post your hostility to everything he stood for, in the light that this forum is only here to stop you posting elsewhere?
http://www.expage.com/paulsnewsarchive"
"
[malte says]''As for your crap about slavery and well-fed prisoners,
and economics not being everything, well that's
what non-Marxists said to Marx. (And Bush said
to Clinton for that matter!) Don't get pissed with
me. Your target is Marx. ''
You are one god almighty liar. Lying for Stalin against Marx. I doubt very much that your statistics are correct.
In fact they look exactly like the sort of state propaganda that had very little to do with what was going on actually. Managers falsified figures in fear of State reprisal. Your paradise was a pile of useless paper from the office of the politbureau.
Marx understood crude communism one hundred times better than you. You are an outright enemy of Marx's thought, socialism, and the very notion of truth. "
"Here's a link for you, maoist3:
http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/home.html
Get help, before it's too late!"
"You know, Maoist, I even I agree with some parts of Maoism, but I would never make it a religion and preach it as you are doing. Everyone outside your sect is "petit-bourgeois", you are claiming to be the only one who knows the entire truth and you doesn't accept any slight divergence from your ideals, everyone in your sect who slightly disagrees with your leader or your officall line will be expelled from your group. The good of your sect is more important for you than the good of the proletariat. Sorry, but that's is not what I call effective fight against capitalism. Your group is so self-centered that you totally lost the connection to todays society. And you are talking to me about the "real world"...
And btw: Mao once was an idealist too, before he led the revolution in China. "
"Well Maoist, the reason why I was so pissed of is that you jumped into duzends of threads and added a link to your Mao sect. You obviesly wasn't interested in debate, just in propaganda for your group to recruit new members. An action that I would call SPAM (Spam = unsolicited advertising). I don't have a problem with prpaganda for your group to a certain level, but you have really overdone it!"
"yep, the NPD is exactly what I'm talking about. Horst Mahler, one of their leaders and their first lawyer and without question not an agent, was a Maoist and RAF terrorist. Another name: Christian Worch, another leading neo-nazi of Germany and former Maoist.
Don't come with your own historical truth here, accept the facts and the simularities of your ideologies. Same pro-totalitarism, same volkish thinking, and often same anti-semitism. "
"Maoist3, if you speak German read "Den Völkern Freiheit", large portions of it could be written by a Maoist, there's is a lot of Maoist rhetoric in it."
[vox said]
"Gosh darnit. I'm being ignored. Maoist3 has been so good at answering everything, too. I understand the Harrington passage is not easily answered by straightforward, dogmatic, reactionary statements, but I thought it would at least be acknowledged.
Now my feelings are all hurt and junk."
"maoist3,
Thank you for replying. I'm feeling a little fiesty tonight and your post serves me well.
Anyone who read the passage I posted from Harrington, with which I agree completely, would understand the name-calling that maoist3 uses as points.
Maoist3 says: "My goal is communism and you either do not share that goal or think it is self-defeating."
I think neither of the two (hint for the newcomers: this is the fallacy of the excluded middle, which states that two alternatives are given as if they are the only two that exist. Clearly, this is not the case.) If you want Communism as it manifested under Stalin, then no, I'm not with you at all, for Harrington, I believe, showed that Stalinism had nothing at all to do with Marx. You did not argue this point in your response.
Also, you say, "You on the other hand, Vox, are not claiming to be for communism."
Really? When did I say I was against it? I did, of course, imply that I'm against Stalinism, but Harrington showed, I think pretty effectively, that Stalin DID NOT HELP THE PROLETARIAT. Isn't that the case, maoist3?
How can you, using Marx, state that Authoritarian Collectivism is Marxist communism?
I notice that you only attack me (and others who had nothing to do with my post, such as Peacenicked and Malte) but you don't address at all what Harrington had to say. NOT AT ALL. JUST LIKE A CAPITALIST WHO AVOIDS THE ARGUMENT.
So, if you have something to say, please do. Otherwise, shut your hole.
What's truly laughable is that you say I don't support the common man. On what is this based? Because I don't support the elitism that Stalin established YOU say I don't support the common man? That's rubbish, plain and simple.
The fact is, you're here supporting a nonrepresentative system, based on Stalinism, and when confronted with the idiocy of Stalinism, all you do is make groundless accusations against me, not quoting me at all anywhere (though I've left messages all over this board).
The fact is, when you see the reality of Stalinism, as my Harrington quote so clearly showed, you DON'T EVEN ADDRESS IT, but rather you attack me, like every right-winger on this forum has done at one time or another.
The fact is, you didn't provide ONE SINGLE SENTENCE that refuted what Harrington said. You've admitted he is right by not saying a single thing in response, and that admission means that YOU ARE WRONG.
You're done here, maoist3. Go and lick your wounds. You didn't provide a SENTENCE against Harrington.
I'm not stupid enough to mistake totalitarian oppression as Marxism. I can only believe that you are. "
""Vox is here spouting Michael Harrington. Instead of pointing out
that Harrington's organization had fraternal ties to Mitterand and the Austrian Social Democrats,
Malte attacks us Stalin-supporters."
Actually, what I did was present an analysis of Stalinism that shows, quite clearly I think, that it is anti-Marxist. Maoist3 called this changing the subject, though I think it's right ON subject and then attacked Harrington as a person, for he could not apparently refute the argument that was set forth.
Maoist3 has shown himself to be unable to rationally defend the ideology he claims to support.
I think that speaks for itself. "
"Still no response from maoist3. Still no rebuttal. Now he's accusing me of quoting Hitler!
Yep. My mind is made up about. Maoist3's post seem to be nothing but the most vulgar, dogmatic Marxism, and when that doesn't work, avoid the issue. (Reminder for everyone: the issue is that anti-Marxist stance of Stalin.)
vox "
[Michael De Panama says]
Maoist,
You're an idiot.
Bye.
[Turnoviseous says]
You can read a long time through Turno, but because
he missed "A" in the alphabet, you will not find him
list a concrete measure of progress. All he can do is
criticize Stalin followers for things that Trotsky followers
also did not succeed in revolutionizing.
If the popular front strategy was wrong, then surely
the Trotskyists could have organized better and
proved it. They didn't and never have. They have always
been "opposition," because the proletariat does not
recognize Trotskyism as proletarian ideology.
As we can see, maoist3 is showing total confusion. Trotsky was warning against policies of Popular Front, because these were policies of Menshevism (class-collaborationism), therefore reformism and which defended foundations of capitalism.
As Lenin used to say. "Everyone can make a mistake, but if this mistake is constantly repeated and no conclusions are learned it becomes a tendency."
Stalinists had more than 50 years to correct this mistake. They learned no conclusions at all, because it was in their interests. Therefore they made this ´mistake´ with purpose, as confirmed by Stalin himself (Look my previous messages, interview with Howard).
Of course, comrade maoist3, if you think that all crimes of Stalin are just capitalist propaganda, then you can not answer for yourself on the question, why ´Trotskysts´ did not make revolutions? Trotsky and Lenin never argued who should make revolution, but they argued what kind of revolution it should be.
Therefore I won´t say why Trotskysts did not make revolutions, but I will answer why there was NO socialist revolutions after October!
- All of experienced Leninist cadres of Left-Opposition were executed on grounds of frame-up trials. And by that all experiences died with them.
- After WW II Stalinism got strengthened on world scale (with Red Army marching in Eastern Europe, and NO these were not socialist revolutions)
- Stalinists made big blows against Leninism in all ´Communist´ Parties around the world. All who sympathized with Leninist policies of Left-Opposition were expelled.
- Western workers were disillusioned by what they saw in USSR and other Stalinist countries.
This is what Turno does not get. It's not whether or not *I* make good or bad theory. According to Marx, the question is what the proletariat will do. The question is
who will have the force to carry out ideas. The question is never the ideas themselves.
It is very surprisingly that you are saying, ´according to Marx´. You are running against Marxism on all subjects, and then you say ´according to Marx´. Interesting. Anyway let me answer you.
Indeed, it is important what proletariat will do, but proletariat will be as successful as leadership will be. So therefore the theories of leadership are decesive on this subject (About you can make sure in all revolutions in history). It is still clear that you do not understand Marx. You are showing a total confusion (mixing Bakunin and Marx).
Another thing is that you, Maoist, are talking about proletariat, while Mao made a peasant revolution and not a socialist one. Without saying the crimes that Mao did because of his opportunist policies of leaning on peasantry in order to put down proletarian masses (which were in minority).
I am still waiting you to answer me on following question:
Why did USSR fall apart?
Your theory of State Capitalism and that bourgeois were in the party is not a marxist explanation. How the hell can bourgeois comes to the party if there was no bourgeois class in USSR? Or maybe you have only difficulties with knowing what class in fact is?
I prooved you that Trotsky did not betray Bolsheviks on the issue of the treaty with Germany (with sources from LCW). So you lied?
[Rob says]
I think that what the Chinese have done there is terrible. How much can be done to reverse the damage, however, is hard to say.
[Borincano says]
Free Tibet! The chinese are destroying their culture, language, and religion. They murdered millions and are continuing their cultural genocide.
[new democracy says]
after seeing the opinions of many mambers here i got a conclusion: maoist3 is an idiot(and nobody say 'you figured it out just now?')!!!!!!
[Capitalist Imperial says]
I've never read maoist3's posts.
One look at his nick, and I knew I should refuse to be an audience to his frivolous rants.
[canikickit says]
maoist3, I'd like to know what your opinion of Mao's attempt to eliminate sparrows? Do you think this was worthwhile?
What about his 'drive for steel' or whatever he called it, was this worthwhile?
[peaccenicked says]
"The bigger the lie the more easy it is believed.
The lie is the USSR was a workers paradise and those of us who dont believe that have been duped by the CIA.
''The bigger the lie is the more easy it is believed.'' Goebols
This hooligan against actual thought is outrageously covering up mass murder, he says the economy needed it.
I dont go about pin labels for the fun of it.
This guy is a pitiless moron who tries to use the compassion of humanity as a tool for his own advancement. He is an abject failure, he has much the same status as a captured rat, squirming and biting at larger life.
Like the capis he will just repeat dead justifications for mass murder.
What I say is like the holocaust deniers, he is up to the neck in the blood of millions of unecessary lost lives and proud of his ability to spit on them.
He is worse than all the capis on this bb put together."
[new democracy says]
maoism sucks!!! it is a cult!!! i bett that charles menson is a maoist.
-----
fuck marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! down with so called "people wars"!!!!!
[vox say]
I've pretty much decided to ignore him for now. Talking to him is like talking to a recorded speech--pretty pointless.
[Nateddi says]
maoist, to be completely frank, i have not read anything you have posted. don't cut off your lines, just keep typing, they cut off themselves.
[new democracy says]
everyone here that support shining path sould be shamed!!!! they are involved in drug-trade, attack civilians, and they actually worshiping their leader!!! everyone here that support them is a freak!!!
anyone want to add anything?
If you would take advantage of the Mao cult to get people interested in communism or leftist politics in general, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That's not my point. My point was that you are claiming to know the entire tuth about everything, and that only the MIM stands for true communism or even true Maoism (your organisation is acuusing even other Maoist groups to be "crypto-trotzyists"!), and so every true communist has to join your tiny sect. That's what is pissing me so much about you.
[New Democracy says:]
"i am not an ex maoist!!!! i am not even a member in new democracy because i am in israel!!!!! i just believe in thier ideology!!!! and yes, when i first saw their website i thought they were maoist because i already knew about mao new democracy!!!!! do you compare new democracy to nazis!? your comrades in germany turning nazi as we speak!!!!!! and if you look in my thread "why maoism is the same as nazism" you would see that maoism is almost the same as nazism!!!!!"
" maoist3, you have to understand that: china was a dictatorship of one man, not the proletariat. just like in every communist country. if you and your cult members could travel back in time and live in mao china, they would abandon maoism. admiring mao is the same as admiring nixon. or almost the same as admiring hitler. supporting maoism it is supporting the oppression of other cultures(tibet, manchuria). you see, maoism is fascism. you will abandon maoism one day. what you will become? i don't know, but i hope you will not be a nazi. from what we see in peru, maoists oppress people even before they got power. i mean, shining path attacks citizens, use trug trade, and they are just a strong cult. "
[new democracy says:]
in both there is a totalitarian government. both oppress minorities(mao: tibet, manchuria) hitler(jews, gipsies, slavs, etc). both use personality cult. both use very cruel methods against their opponents. both killed millions of people(only mao killed more). both persecute gays. both conquered countries(mao conquered tibet and a small part of india). both ban religion. many maoists turn nazi in germany. both maoist and nazis arguments make no sense. maoists support stalin and everybody here(except the stalinists) say that stalinism is the same as fascism. pol pot was a maoist and he oppressed minorities too and killed allot of people. anyone wnat to back me up here?
[new democracy says:]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: from new democracy on 5:03 pm on Aug. 29, 2002
and why dont you put your fucking ugly face in your mother pussy you fucking stalinist shit!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the same goes to maoist3!!!!
[malte says]
Maoist, I know I can't really accuse you that, but how came that so many Maoists are turning Nazi's? Especially in Germany, some leading Neo-Nazi's were Maoists before. Well, I would say they just changed their leader, not much of their ideology. The "volkish" thinking is the same. (there is no English word for "Volk" or "völkisch", so I had to invent one, I hope you understand what I mean).
[new democracy says]
and here is a question to maoist3: do you post when you high? because your posts make no sense!!!
[another quote from new democracy]
here is a list of members that i think going to sell out:
maoist3
[another quotes from new democracy]
"i think that maoist3. i mean you saw what happens to maoists in germany. they turn nazi!!!! "
"i dont that maoist3 truly believe what he say, so i think he is one of the firsts to sell out. probably he will become a nazi. "
"he lies to himself. deep inside he knows that. mark my words, he will leave maoism one day!!!!! and maybe he is not going to be a nazi. maybe he will become a memeber in new democracy . "
"i cant wait to see maoist3 reply for my posts. it wil be probably like this: "maoist3 replies for m.i.m: long live marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! long live stalin!!!!! now pray for mao nd!!!!!!you will die in maoist hell!!!! you are a cappy!!!!!! long live communist party of peru!!!!! death to the opponents of marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!!!aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!"
[new democracy says]
"and to maoist3: fuck marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! fuck shining path!!!!! fuck communist party of nepal(maoist)!!!!! fuck Maoist Internationalist Movement!!!! fuck stupid maoists!!!!! fuck revolutionary communist party usa!!!!!!! fuck stalin!!!!! fuck stalinism!!!!! fuck pol-pot!!!!!! fuck kim il sung!!!!! fuck nazism(which is the same as maoism)!!!!!!!!! "
"maoist3 an asshole!!!!! maoist3 is a big fucking maoist dick!!!! "
[new democracy says]
"look who is here!!! maoist3!!! my favorite cult member!!! "
"IF YOU ASK ME MAOIST3 IS AN EXEMPLE OF HOW MAOISM IS A CULT. I REMEMBER THAT IN MY THREAD "PEOPLE WAR IN PERU" WHEN I CONDEM SHINING PATH HE SAID THAT I SUPPORT CAPITALISM WHEN I AM ANTI CAPITALIST. HE DID NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR DRUG TRADING, ATTECKS ON CIVILIANS, AND THEIR BRUTALITY. THEY ALSO ACT CRASY IF YOU SAID "SHINING PATH" INSTEAD OF COMMUNIST PARTY OF PERU. "
"i must say that i read m.i.m program and its sound like m.i.m is more a cult than an ideological organization "
"well as long as we talk about tibet: maoism=nazism!!!"
[peaccenicked says]
" Your surveys are untruthful, I dont trust them at all.
All you are showing is slavish blind faith.
A materialist starts with reliable sources.
Everything not stalinist is CIA in your ficticious nightmare. What sources would you accept because if you really want to know I will give you as much trustworthy information as I have cross referenced, but I think is pointless you are not interested in anything outside your idealised class identity.
Frankly I think you dont give a shit. "
"meoewvist dead head
How does a few social gains for women add up to support of mass murder. You are just a fucking idiot.
I suggest you stay out my face."
"Moaist3, you braindead, jack-in-the box, economic improvements in the Stalinist world have less to do with positive socialism than a lack of BEING PLUNDERED BY imperialism.
Politics is ugly and if anybody is serving capitilism here it is you, who is all just words, bullshit words.
Your principles are anti socialist and you let the cat out of the bag everytime you open that big shithole of yours that you have nothing to offer democracy.
Indeed you scoff at democracy and equate state murder
with social gains.
The idealism of giving Stalinism a honorable place in proletarian history is the one that drowns your idiocy in the here and now, internationally.
The dustbin of history is truly yours.
Stalinism is a worse ideology than capitalism because it paints the liberation of the working class as the callous disregard for human life for economic gain. Capitalism merely
tries to tie its interests with workers interests.
Moaist3 is an outright enemy of the working class.
His/hers fake 'socialism' serves to keep the workers ideologically tied to capitalism and HOSTILE TO SOCIALISM. "
"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: from maoist3 on 6:00 am on Aug. 12, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My goal is communism and you either do not
share that goal or think it is self-defeating.
However, if it will make you feel better,
I will direct the same question as before, but
to YOU, but I warn you that since
you don't care about the common man
the way a communist does, this is not
likely to satisfy you much. How's that.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K18832071
That's
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/life...xpectussr2.html (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/lifeexpectussr2.html)
My question is now a DEMAND. Show me
somewhere, something better in all of world
history for the common man up to the year 1950.
Spare me your sophisms, and show me.
(Edited by maoist3 at 6:08 am on Aug. 12, 2002)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is all you provide and have provided to defend stalinism. Comparative death rates. This indicator says what Stalinism outdid Capitalism for a certain period of time in this area.
Join the Capis on this board who say the US is doing more for the common man than communism did for anyone. Economic criterion alone is not enough.
The crudity of your communism is sickening.
The political culture of the population is the first measure of socialism.
Eating under mass ideological slavery is not the same as eating under freedom be it stalinist or capitalist.
You want a ''communism'' of well kept prisoners.
Really, I think you are sick through and through.
Socialism is a form of organisation in which the proletariat become the ruling class.
This was not evidated in soviet Russia. Lenin called it a peasants and workers state with gross bureauctatic deformations. Stalin only made these deformations worse.
What in hell is that got to do with socialism or proletarian rule?
-----
The question I put is : Is there any dignity in becoming a member of a BB which is dedicated to the memory of Che Guevara and post your hostility to everything he stood for, in the light that this forum is only here to stop you posting elsewhere?
http://www.expage.com/paulsnewsarchive"
"
[malte says]''As for your crap about slavery and well-fed prisoners,
and economics not being everything, well that's
what non-Marxists said to Marx. (And Bush said
to Clinton for that matter!) Don't get pissed with
me. Your target is Marx. ''
You are one god almighty liar. Lying for Stalin against Marx. I doubt very much that your statistics are correct.
In fact they look exactly like the sort of state propaganda that had very little to do with what was going on actually. Managers falsified figures in fear of State reprisal. Your paradise was a pile of useless paper from the office of the politbureau.
Marx understood crude communism one hundred times better than you. You are an outright enemy of Marx's thought, socialism, and the very notion of truth. "
"Here's a link for you, maoist3:
http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/home.html
Get help, before it's too late!"
"You know, Maoist, I even I agree with some parts of Maoism, but I would never make it a religion and preach it as you are doing. Everyone outside your sect is "petit-bourgeois", you are claiming to be the only one who knows the entire truth and you doesn't accept any slight divergence from your ideals, everyone in your sect who slightly disagrees with your leader or your officall line will be expelled from your group. The good of your sect is more important for you than the good of the proletariat. Sorry, but that's is not what I call effective fight against capitalism. Your group is so self-centered that you totally lost the connection to todays society. And you are talking to me about the "real world"...
And btw: Mao once was an idealist too, before he led the revolution in China. "
"Well Maoist, the reason why I was so pissed of is that you jumped into duzends of threads and added a link to your Mao sect. You obviesly wasn't interested in debate, just in propaganda for your group to recruit new members. An action that I would call SPAM (Spam = unsolicited advertising). I don't have a problem with prpaganda for your group to a certain level, but you have really overdone it!"
"yep, the NPD is exactly what I'm talking about. Horst Mahler, one of their leaders and their first lawyer and without question not an agent, was a Maoist and RAF terrorist. Another name: Christian Worch, another leading neo-nazi of Germany and former Maoist.
Don't come with your own historical truth here, accept the facts and the simularities of your ideologies. Same pro-totalitarism, same volkish thinking, and often same anti-semitism. "
"Maoist3, if you speak German read "Den Völkern Freiheit", large portions of it could be written by a Maoist, there's is a lot of Maoist rhetoric in it."
[vox said]
"Gosh darnit. I'm being ignored. Maoist3 has been so good at answering everything, too. I understand the Harrington passage is not easily answered by straightforward, dogmatic, reactionary statements, but I thought it would at least be acknowledged.
Now my feelings are all hurt and junk."
"maoist3,
Thank you for replying. I'm feeling a little fiesty tonight and your post serves me well.
Anyone who read the passage I posted from Harrington, with which I agree completely, would understand the name-calling that maoist3 uses as points.
Maoist3 says: "My goal is communism and you either do not share that goal or think it is self-defeating."
I think neither of the two (hint for the newcomers: this is the fallacy of the excluded middle, which states that two alternatives are given as if they are the only two that exist. Clearly, this is not the case.) If you want Communism as it manifested under Stalin, then no, I'm not with you at all, for Harrington, I believe, showed that Stalinism had nothing at all to do with Marx. You did not argue this point in your response.
Also, you say, "You on the other hand, Vox, are not claiming to be for communism."
Really? When did I say I was against it? I did, of course, imply that I'm against Stalinism, but Harrington showed, I think pretty effectively, that Stalin DID NOT HELP THE PROLETARIAT. Isn't that the case, maoist3?
How can you, using Marx, state that Authoritarian Collectivism is Marxist communism?
I notice that you only attack me (and others who had nothing to do with my post, such as Peacenicked and Malte) but you don't address at all what Harrington had to say. NOT AT ALL. JUST LIKE A CAPITALIST WHO AVOIDS THE ARGUMENT.
So, if you have something to say, please do. Otherwise, shut your hole.
What's truly laughable is that you say I don't support the common man. On what is this based? Because I don't support the elitism that Stalin established YOU say I don't support the common man? That's rubbish, plain and simple.
The fact is, you're here supporting a nonrepresentative system, based on Stalinism, and when confronted with the idiocy of Stalinism, all you do is make groundless accusations against me, not quoting me at all anywhere (though I've left messages all over this board).
The fact is, when you see the reality of Stalinism, as my Harrington quote so clearly showed, you DON'T EVEN ADDRESS IT, but rather you attack me, like every right-winger on this forum has done at one time or another.
The fact is, you didn't provide ONE SINGLE SENTENCE that refuted what Harrington said. You've admitted he is right by not saying a single thing in response, and that admission means that YOU ARE WRONG.
You're done here, maoist3. Go and lick your wounds. You didn't provide a SENTENCE against Harrington.
I'm not stupid enough to mistake totalitarian oppression as Marxism. I can only believe that you are. "
""Vox is here spouting Michael Harrington. Instead of pointing out
that Harrington's organization had fraternal ties to Mitterand and the Austrian Social Democrats,
Malte attacks us Stalin-supporters."
Actually, what I did was present an analysis of Stalinism that shows, quite clearly I think, that it is anti-Marxist. Maoist3 called this changing the subject, though I think it's right ON subject and then attacked Harrington as a person, for he could not apparently refute the argument that was set forth.
Maoist3 has shown himself to be unable to rationally defend the ideology he claims to support.
I think that speaks for itself. "
"Still no response from maoist3. Still no rebuttal. Now he's accusing me of quoting Hitler!
Yep. My mind is made up about. Maoist3's post seem to be nothing but the most vulgar, dogmatic Marxism, and when that doesn't work, avoid the issue. (Reminder for everyone: the issue is that anti-Marxist stance of Stalin.)
vox "
[Michael De Panama says]
Maoist,
You're an idiot.
Bye.
[Turnoviseous says]
You can read a long time through Turno, but because
he missed "A" in the alphabet, you will not find him
list a concrete measure of progress. All he can do is
criticize Stalin followers for things that Trotsky followers
also did not succeed in revolutionizing.
If the popular front strategy was wrong, then surely
the Trotskyists could have organized better and
proved it. They didn't and never have. They have always
been "opposition," because the proletariat does not
recognize Trotskyism as proletarian ideology.
As we can see, maoist3 is showing total confusion. Trotsky was warning against policies of Popular Front, because these were policies of Menshevism (class-collaborationism), therefore reformism and which defended foundations of capitalism.
As Lenin used to say. "Everyone can make a mistake, but if this mistake is constantly repeated and no conclusions are learned it becomes a tendency."
Stalinists had more than 50 years to correct this mistake. They learned no conclusions at all, because it was in their interests. Therefore they made this ´mistake´ with purpose, as confirmed by Stalin himself (Look my previous messages, interview with Howard).
Of course, comrade maoist3, if you think that all crimes of Stalin are just capitalist propaganda, then you can not answer for yourself on the question, why ´Trotskysts´ did not make revolutions? Trotsky and Lenin never argued who should make revolution, but they argued what kind of revolution it should be.
Therefore I won´t say why Trotskysts did not make revolutions, but I will answer why there was NO socialist revolutions after October!
- All of experienced Leninist cadres of Left-Opposition were executed on grounds of frame-up trials. And by that all experiences died with them.
- After WW II Stalinism got strengthened on world scale (with Red Army marching in Eastern Europe, and NO these were not socialist revolutions)
- Stalinists made big blows against Leninism in all ´Communist´ Parties around the world. All who sympathized with Leninist policies of Left-Opposition were expelled.
- Western workers were disillusioned by what they saw in USSR and other Stalinist countries.
This is what Turno does not get. It's not whether or not *I* make good or bad theory. According to Marx, the question is what the proletariat will do. The question is
who will have the force to carry out ideas. The question is never the ideas themselves.
It is very surprisingly that you are saying, ´according to Marx´. You are running against Marxism on all subjects, and then you say ´according to Marx´. Interesting. Anyway let me answer you.
Indeed, it is important what proletariat will do, but proletariat will be as successful as leadership will be. So therefore the theories of leadership are decesive on this subject (About you can make sure in all revolutions in history). It is still clear that you do not understand Marx. You are showing a total confusion (mixing Bakunin and Marx).
Another thing is that you, Maoist, are talking about proletariat, while Mao made a peasant revolution and not a socialist one. Without saying the crimes that Mao did because of his opportunist policies of leaning on peasantry in order to put down proletarian masses (which were in minority).
I am still waiting you to answer me on following question:
Why did USSR fall apart?
Your theory of State Capitalism and that bourgeois were in the party is not a marxist explanation. How the hell can bourgeois comes to the party if there was no bourgeois class in USSR? Or maybe you have only difficulties with knowing what class in fact is?
I prooved you that Trotsky did not betray Bolsheviks on the issue of the treaty with Germany (with sources from LCW). So you lied?
[Rob says]
I think that what the Chinese have done there is terrible. How much can be done to reverse the damage, however, is hard to say.
[Borincano says]
Free Tibet! The chinese are destroying their culture, language, and religion. They murdered millions and are continuing their cultural genocide.
[new democracy says]
after seeing the opinions of many mambers here i got a conclusion: maoist3 is an idiot(and nobody say 'you figured it out just now?')!!!!!!
[Capitalist Imperial says]
I've never read maoist3's posts.
One look at his nick, and I knew I should refuse to be an audience to his frivolous rants.
[canikickit says]
maoist3, I'd like to know what your opinion of Mao's attempt to eliminate sparrows? Do you think this was worthwhile?
What about his 'drive for steel' or whatever he called it, was this worthwhile?
[peaccenicked says]
"The bigger the lie the more easy it is believed.
The lie is the USSR was a workers paradise and those of us who dont believe that have been duped by the CIA.
''The bigger the lie is the more easy it is believed.'' Goebols
This hooligan against actual thought is outrageously covering up mass murder, he says the economy needed it.
I dont go about pin labels for the fun of it.
This guy is a pitiless moron who tries to use the compassion of humanity as a tool for his own advancement. He is an abject failure, he has much the same status as a captured rat, squirming and biting at larger life.
Like the capis he will just repeat dead justifications for mass murder.
What I say is like the holocaust deniers, he is up to the neck in the blood of millions of unecessary lost lives and proud of his ability to spit on them.
He is worse than all the capis on this bb put together."
[new democracy says]
maoism sucks!!! it is a cult!!! i bett that charles menson is a maoist.
-----
fuck marxism-leninism-maoism!!!!! down with so called "people wars"!!!!!
[vox say]
I've pretty much decided to ignore him for now. Talking to him is like talking to a recorded speech--pretty pointless.
[Nateddi says]
maoist, to be completely frank, i have not read anything you have posted. don't cut off your lines, just keep typing, they cut off themselves.
[new democracy says]
everyone here that support shining path sould be shamed!!!! they are involved in drug-trade, attack civilians, and they actually worshiping their leader!!! everyone here that support them is a freak!!!
anyone want to add anything?