What should we do with the reactionaries/fascists and bourgeois after the revolution?

[nvm]

What should with all of those groups of people? Imprison them? Let them live in our new society as long as they do not do acts of sabotage?
What if they compose a percentage like 25% of the population?
Wouldn't it be more safe for the revolution to imprison/exterminate the most dangerous of them , including agitators of reaction?

I would like to see every fascist and bourgeois hanging from a tree and filling up a whole forest :D

[Illus]

Well under the dictatorship of the proletariat the State and police will serve the ruling working class, so political agitation against the State, in whatever form, as well as economic agitation (black market capitalism etc) will be illegal. So if they break the law, put them up against the wall.

Revolutions are usually most vulnerable just after the last government was toppled, so at least imprisoning or otherwise liquidating individuals which you KNOW are going to politically resist and agitate, that is fine.

It is after all class warfare, and in class warfare compassionate to the bourgeois is not a revolutionary sentiment.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Well under the dictatorship of the proletariat the State and police will serve the ruling working class

No they won't. They'll serve whomever is giving them orders.

And it won't be the proletariat, that's for sure.

[#FF0000]

There's really no set answer for this that everyone will agree on. Some will say that we should hang them all, others that we should shoot them...

We could always just let them live and criticize the new way of doing things all they like. No need to get violent, unless they decide to do something silly and try to forcefully change things back against the will of the people.

Then again, it depends on when you're talking about. During/immediately after a revolution would probably require a more heavy-handed approach.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Anytime an all powerful organ of control such as the State is utilized to destroy some nebulous entity for the people's "own good", a tragic disaster results. Saying that the track record for such ventures is abysmal would be generous.

[shorelinetrance]

Systematic extermination.

[#FF0000]

Systematic extermination.

You know who else liked systematic extermination as a means of getting rid of opposition...?

[RedAnarchist]

By the time a revolution comes to fruition, any opposition will be tiny. They'll be pretty powerful adn armed to the teeth, but they certainly won't be a sizeable portion of the global populace.

All this talk of what to do with the reactionaries sounds, to me, a little pessimistic. If the public can be educated about our ideals, and we build a strong working class movement, any opposition will be severly weakened.

I believe that we should also not see them as one bloc, but as many different people who should be treated in different ways - we're obviously going to be a lot tougher on politicians and world leaders than we will be on a bunch of bigots in the local pub.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You know who else liked systematic extermination as a means of getting rid of opposition...?

http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/michael.JPG

Michael Corleone needs to run the future dictatorship of the proletariat!

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/michael.JPG

Who is that?

[RHIZOMES]

Only if they're doing something to try and topple the new revolutionary government. And if that's the case just throw them in jail or something. No need to give the bourgeoisie propagandists TOO much cannon fodder.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Who is that?

:ohmy:

It's the Godfather, man!

[RedAnarchist]

:ohmy:

It's the Godfather, man!

I've never watched those films, so I don't know the characters.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've never watched those films, so I don't know the characters.

Well, at the end of The Godfather, Part One Michael Corleone (played by Al Pacino) kills all of his enemies and becomes the head of the Mafia. He basically does a little ruthless purging of his opponents. That's why I mentioned him.

[RebelDog]

I've never watched those films, so I don't know the characters.

You haven't lived.

[Redmau5]

By the time a revolution comes to fruition, any opposition will be tiny. They'll be pretty powerful adn armed to the teeth, but they certainly won't be a sizeable portion of the global populace.

All this talk of what to do with the reactionaries sounds, to me, a little pessimistic. If the public can be educated about our ideals, and we build a strong working class movement, any opposition will be severly weakened.

I believe that we should also not see them as one bloc, but as many different people who should be treated in different ways - we're obviously going to be a lot tougher on politicians and world leaders than we will be on a bunch of bigots in the local pub.

This is pretty much spot on.

I would imagine that when the global revolution is coming to fruition, most of the world's populace, regardless of what political stance they held previously, will be highly class conscious and will therefore be fighting for the revolution. I don't think even the bourgeoisie would could continue to fight on if they seen that proletarian victory was inevitable.

And anyone talking about "extermination" or "hanging people from trees" needs to take a serious reality check. Language like that isn't going to help win over average workers.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Um, it is winning over working-class segments to far-right parties like the BNP. Something that I keep noting here: the worst part about the BNP is that it isn't really a petit-bourgeois party as much as it is becoming, more and more, a reactionary working-class party.

[Redmau5]

^^^ Um, it is winning over working-class segments to far-right parties like the BNP. Something that I keep noting here: the worst part about the BNP is that it isn't really a petit-bourgeois party as much as it is becoming, more and more, a reactionary working-class party.

And you think most of the white working-class who vote BNP would be in favour of hanging and exterminating immigrants? I don't want this getting dragged off-topic, but I honestly don't. I believe the BNP are feeding off disillusionment in working-class areas and simply using immigrants as a scapegoat. That doesn't mean that everyone who votes BNP is a dyed in the wool fascist.

But to get back to the original point. I think most people would be completely turned off listening to rhetoric about hangings and extermination.

[Dr Mindbender]

by the time the revolution is the 'flavour of the hour', the cries of disapproval from reactionaries will be as irrelevant and nonsensical as the burning of witches so no retribution against them will be necessary.

By that time their words and stubborness will be their own worst enemy.

[Die Neue Zeit]

But to get back to the original point. I think most people would be completely turned off listening to rhetoric about hangings and extermination.

There will be a post-revolution aggravation of the class struggle along with the transition to socialism (not communism, and the bolded phrase distinguishes Lenin's position from Stalin's erroneous "along with the development of" position):

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/oct/30.htm


Having overthrown the bourgeoisie and conquered political power, the proletariat has become the ruling class; it wields state power, it exercises control over means of production already socialised; it guides the wavering and intermediary elements and classes; it crushes the increasingly stubborn resistance of the exploiters.

The point is to liquidate all non-proletarian classes. Prostitutes and low-level gangsters - the proper lumpenproletariat - will be eager to assimilate. However, lumpenbourgeois (hucksters, pimps) and bourgeois folks won't be.

I haven't proposed executions, prisons, or whatever. I have, however, proposed something more controversial:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchism-and-anti-t76849/index.html


Slave relations - "NKVD-style" GULAGS - for outright class enemies, counterrevolutionary class traitors, and serial non-political criminals (directed by a broad Internal Affairs administration) - thus saving society the unnecessary expenses associated with maximum-security prisons and execution facilities;

At the very minimum, these elements need to be stripped of their democratic rights (voting, for example).

[turquino]

They should be brought before popular tribunals to be publicly criticized and be allowed to make to make their own self-criticism. Shame can be a very revolutionary thing, and shaming the reactionaries is a good way to start reforming them.

The rebels and resisters should have their property confiscated and their movement restricted. And of course violent counter-revolution should be met with self-defence by the revolutionary people and their organs of proletarian power.

However, i think we have more to worry about with disgruntled workers after the revolution than with the small numbers of class enemies.

[gla22]

Exile them mostly. This is the best option.

[RedHal]

depends how you envision the revolution. Will it happen throughout the majority of the world, especially the powerful imperialists countries, or will it happen in a tiny poor country like Nepal. A world revolution, particularly in rich imperialists countries, is of course ideal, but how realistic? How can a small country defend its revolution against the reactionaries when they are backed by the imperialists? I know one thing, certain leftists will be crying foul along with the imperialists.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

The response taken should be based entirely on the individual.

[redSHARP]

i am not a super big fan of purgings, instead of oppression/betraying our ideals, why not brain wash or win them over legitametly?

take a cappi for an example, if you give him room to make him think he has chioces (which he will of course have), he will be content as long as he has three meals a day and a nice job.

the rural class presents another hurdle, since the farmer always wants land so collectivizing never works out well. so we can give him his plot of land and allow him to sell some of his food on the side in order for him to be content. we can encourage him to work with the other local farmers and buy them over by dividing up unused land or factory farm land. these new lands would take the shape of soviets or anarchist councils.

the facists can either go to another country, be reeducated, or shot.

people of religion would be treated with the up most respect, since they control the masses. if they are treated well and slowly sidelined, then they will not raise any protest. if a priest has a problem with the reforms, then we can pack his bags, give him some money and plane tickets and give him the boot. the religous people also have good marketing skills and can make any regime look bad (i.e. republican spain, Iran)

if any one tries to be a hero and resists us with violence, then the workers' fist shall crush them. but we have to tread carefully or become what we hate the most.

[Svante]

Exile them mostly. This is the best option.


yes, good idea.exile them t o Gitmo or Sudbury.this is polluted wit h chimiques.

[Die Neue Zeit]

They should be brought before popular tribunals to be publicly criticized and be allowed to make to make their own self-criticism. Shame can be a very revolutionary thing, and shaming the reactionaries is a good way to start reforming them.

Well, that and COUPLED with my controversial proposal up above would definitely send a message to would-be class enemies amongst petit-bourgeois elements.


the rural class presents another hurdle, since the farmer always wants land so collectivizing never works out well. so we can give him his plot of land and allow him to sell some of his food on the side in order for him to be content. we can encourage him to work with the other local farmers and buy them over by dividing up unused land or factory farm land. these new lands would take the shape of soviets or anarchist councils.

There's a Politics thread on "Is land reform obsolete?" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/land-reform-obsolete-t74905/index.html) I suggest you read that. Most rural farmers in the developed world these days are proles and not peasants. They won't have as much motivation for land.

As for peasants, FORCED sovkhozization will do quite nicely. :)

[Mariner's Revenge]

Hmm....I have discussed this topic in the past with others and it always seems to end up getting interesting.

First of all, my philosophy during the revolution is to kill or exile anyone that defends the current system. If someone is in the upper class but does not go against the revolution, we should let them live and maybe deal with them later.


For the post-revolution, ideally, it would be best to have such strong support for the new revolutionary system that anti-revolutionaries would be afraid to come out in fear of backlash from the community. That would not only socially silence anti-revolutionaries but show just how strong the revolutionary culture actually is.

But we do not live in an ideal world. What will most likely happen, and what I believe happened in Spain, is that all the capitalists and such will fade into the working class until it is safe for them to come out again. Thinking we can get rid of or brainwash everyone is foolish and Utopian. There really isn't much we can do about them until they present a problem or come out in the open. I would say we take a dynamic reactionary stance against them. No single policy will work in every situation.


Just remember, an irrational revolution will be doomed to failure. Know what the anti-revolutionaries are up too and react accordingly. If they present a threat that may take over the new system, extermination may be necessary. If they stage mass protests, mockery and scare tactics may be better. If they remain in hiding, show mercy to gain support from the public.

[nvm]

As for peasants, FORCED sovkhozization will do quite nicely. http://www.revleft.com/vb/should-we-do-t79010/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif


Why forced?
why create enemies amongst your allies?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ They're petit-bourgeois elements, not farm workers.

[Bright Banana Beard]

The response taken should be based entirely on the individual.

This is what you all should look deeply into.

[Q]

Exile them mostly. This is the best option.
Yeah, Trotsky once proposed, in the question of a revolution in the United States, that the most ardent bourgeoisie could be appointed to a small far away island if they didn't wished to live under socialism. Let them oppress themselves for a change :lol:

But yeah, if they don't take up arms, I don't see the problem really.

[Bastable]

The bourgeoisie should be used for hard labour in areas where workers are needed most until they have earned back every cent they cheated off the working class, most will not live to see redemption, however that was caused by their actions. It is as you say, poetic justice

[Plagueround]

The response taken should be based entirely on the individual.

I agree with this. It's important to remember that a large portion of the bourgeoisie see themselves as good people and don't realize how much they oppress others. They would probably give things a shot. The vindictive plutocrats who know what they do and don't care? Eh...Give them a chance too. I doubt they'd take it, but we're supposed to be progressive and rational people. If they don't want to play ball, exile them and let them ponder their now useless money. :lol:

[Svante]

first let us win that we will decide what t o do with them.

[More Fire for the People]

Bordellos?