African-American Reperations - Thoughts

[munkey soup]

The Japanese-internment camp Topic sparked this question, so:

I was wondering if some of you could give me your thoughts on Black Reperations, whether for or against. While I have not done too much actual reading on this subject(the reason for my asking), I have done personal reflection and I am against giving money directly to families and such. I would be more supportive of putting more money into the, for lack of a better word, 'rehabilitation' of some of these downtrodden communities with large percentages of black population. More money for education, parks, healthcare facilities, community centers, and the like.

But my position is not concrete, so maybe some informative thoughts on either side could sway my standing.

(Also, if this has already been debated recently, feel free to tell me to piss off)

[canikickit]

yeah....it is just difficult to say what form the reperations should take.

I think the best thing would be for there to be a very public and definite pushing of funds into these areas, in a positive discrimination sort of way.

Everyone was promised forty acres and a mule, right?
Well they should do this...I dunno I mean so much logistic planning, jesus.....

[RedCeltic]

I'm actually not familiar with what kind of reparations the Japanese received. I do know however that the recent decision to force companies that benefited from Jewish labor during WWII to pay reparations to the families.. ( IE: Volkswagen)... renewed the argument over reparations for descendants of Slaves in the US.

The major problem with this is that it was so long ago that it's impossible to find corporations that are remotely responsible. There was one attempt for example to go after insurance companies that benefited by selling insurance policies...that insured slaves. These companies have long since folded, been incorporated into other companies, which in turn have been bought out by even larger companies... etc.. it becomes a complicated mess..

Making the US Government pay seems to be a clear cut answer... however, is it fair to force the general public of the United States of.. 2002... to pay for what a small percentage of wealthy, white, southerners did prior to 1863?

[vox]

"I'm actually not familiar with what kind of reparations the Japanese received."

I looked it up:

"Under the Reagan Administration, the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 provided for reparation checks of $20,000 to victims of the WWII internment. As checks have been distributed to over 60, 000 survivors of the internment camps, they have been accompanied by a letter of apology from the sitting President: “The United States unjustly interned, evacuated, or relocated you and many other Japanese Americans… and unfairly denied Japanese Americans and their families fundamental liberties during World War II. …the nation’s actions were rooted deeply in racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a lack of political leadership” (Clinton letter)."

I think RC raises a good point. I'd add that it's also difficult to know who should get the money, for birth records for slaves were often not kept at all, and other times were carelessly kept.

It's a difficult question, to be sure.

vox

[BigBlakAf]

Yes it is utterly impossible for us to find companies that were responsible... but we can also take into account that although slavery ended in 1863, after Reconstruction, African-Americans were still discriminated against in accordance with the laws on the books until the 1960's (seperate but equal, the biggest sham in US History), and realistically still today. But I haven't seen any deals which included the fact that there was such discrimination long after slavery ended.
And I think that reperations should include an apology first and foremost, then a memorial since this country was built with a significant portion on their backs. Money is a tougher issue, because it is impossible to give it to individuals (some people might use that great-grandmother who was passing as white but was really black to get some money). Local governments (i.e. city), neighborhoods, and most importantly schools should get the most. Because I've been on both sides of the tracks and I can tell you that it is an almost impossible dream for alot of people.

[Pinko]

Reparations for slavery are pointless. How far back do you go? Do the native races of the Americas demand reparations from the countries they live in and the European nations that colonised them? Do the Arabs demand reparation for the Crusades? Do the people of a fair proportion of Celtic blood demand reparations from Italy due to the warlike attitude of the Roman Empire?
There has to be a cut off point. Reparations have to be made to those that suffered, so if it has passed from living memory then leave it.
The matter of what ammounts to aparthied in the US until quite recently is another matter. At the very least there should be an appology.

[Solzhenitsyn]

One problem of many with reparations movement is that the concept of chattel slavery itself was imported from Africa. From a pro-reparations FAQ:

"This subject was mentioned in AMERICAN HERITAGE, Feb./Mar. 1993 (vol. 441) under the title Selling Poor Steven beginning on page 90. Citing the official US Census of 1830, there were 3,775 free blacks who owned 12,740 black slaves. Furthermore, the story outlines the history of slavery here, and the first slave owner, the Father of American Slavery, was Mr. Anthony Johnson, of Northampton VA. His slave was John Casor, the first slave for life. Both were black Africans."

I read the article. It centers on a court case Johnson v. Casor in 1633. The case defined chattel slavery as a legal practice as long as slaves were aquired where it was legal to do so (Africa). Interesting reading.

[j]

I think it all needs to start with a formal apology to the decendants of slaves in this country. In reality, reparations should have occured in the 1800s. It is very hard to think about even where the money would come from. Would it be the companies? The families? Is it fair to the great, great grandchildren of slave owners to have to give up property or money? What if someone has moved onto land that was once held by a slave owner, are they responsible in any way? It really doesn't make sense. The thoughts and reasons are in the right, but realistically I don't see it happening. However an formal apology would work wonders.

j

[Lardlad95]

Yes an apology is the way to go. Money would be far to complicated.

However the US hasn't even made steps to do that much.

I think the US just doesn't feel like admitting its own faults...atleast not towards black americans.

However I find it amazingly unfair that Japenese decendants get repirations and we don't.

Not saying that Japenese Americans didn't deserve it because they obviously did.

But we can't even get an apology.....the US just wants to forget that it ever happened

[DestinDisaster]

This is a sticky topic. I don't even understand this fuking country. There will never be a day when blacks, or mexicans, or asians will ever be treated equal. This talk of reperations is pointless. We can't even get an apology. We didn't even have equal rights until 35 years ago. The thing that hurts the most, America supports the Jews who suffered in the holocaust, not even it's own citizens, by giving them Isreal,( which in turn oppresses the palestinians), but can't even publicly annouce that what they did was wrong and unjust. And why should I give my all to this country, when I was never wanted here in the first place. God bless America, and God bless the guy who vandalized my door with a swastica last night.

[Guest]

If anyone deserves apologies or repirations its native americans. They suffered the most, they, who occupied the entire continent, are now confined to live in areas that probably barely make up the size of texas, all put together. Noone should recieve anything until the indians do.

[DestinDisaster]

I agree with you completely. An apology is all that is needed in both situations, in all situations. Until then there will never be true equality.

[Storman Normin]

Not my department, I'm afraid.

-----
Whatever the answer, we should refuse to let science become the dogma that subjugates the masses like the religion of the Dark Ages. Every legitimate claim should have evidence to support its claim, but if further investigation rules that theory improbable that theory should be abandoned and replaced with a better explanation.
-me

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Guest on 2:16 am on Sep. 5, 2002
If anyone deserves apologies or repirations its native americans. They suffered the most, they, who occupied the entire continent, are now confined to live in areas that probably barely make up the size of texas, all put together. Noone should recieve anything until the indians do.


I agree the Native Americans got screwed over royally.

Its completely unfair what happened, their entire continent, all of their people stolen and obliterated.

And what did they get? Some fuckin land that aint worth shit.

In their case I think they deserve more than an apology.

Maybe some more land and money for the tribes.

We should just hope for a memorial and an apology.

Technically we had nothing tangible stolen, except for our spirits and culture.

THe native Americans lost so much.

[Storman Normin]

[/quote]

I agree the Native Americans got screwed over royally.

Its completely unfair what happened, their entire continent, all of their people stolen and obliterated.

And what did they get? Some fuckin land that aint worth shit.

In their case I think they deserve more than an apology.

Maybe some more land and money for the tribes.

We should just hope for a memorial and an apology.

Technically we had nothing tangible stolen, except for our spirits and culture.

THe native Americans lost so much.

[/quote]

Yes, I agree, and also some of you are thinking, let us fuck up the US also, Let me say that two wrongs do not make a right.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Storman Normin on 4:23 pm on Sep. 7, 2002



I agree the Native Americans got screwed over royally.

Its completely unfair what happened, their entire continent, all of their people stolen and obliterated.

And what did they get? Some fuckin land that aint worth shit.

In their case I think they deserve more than an apology.

Maybe some more land and money for the tribes.

We should just hope for a memorial and an apology.

Technically we had nothing tangible stolen, except for our spirits and culture.

THe native Americans lost so much.

[/quote]

Yes, I agree, and also some of you are thinking, let us fuck up the US also, Let me say that two wrongs do not make a right.[/quote]

what wrong was I talking about?

[Storman Normin]

That, mr lardlad, is what the Zulus went through.

[Guest]

My views:

Blacks shoudn't recieve any repatritions from anyone. There were black slaveowners and black people sold other blacks into slavery. It was also to long ago and would be to complicated to pay everyone.

As for non whites not being equal to whites it is completley untrue nowadays. Blacks have Affirmative action where they get jobs over whites even if they are less qualified. This happens a hell of lot. I have talked to several whites who have been passed over for non whites even though they were more qualified. Also the vast majotrity of racial attacks are Black on White but whites only ever seem to get charged with hate crimes. One person i have talked to was attacked by three black people when he was walking home with his girlfriend. He won the fight and when the police arrived he was charged with a hatecrime rather than the black people. It's crap to say that non whites are discrimanated agaisnt in America today it's the other way round.

[Ymir]

Everyone deserves equal rights. Not extra nor less than what everyone else recieves. It would be unfair to give African Americans money. Even an apology is not correct.
Life may not have been fair to them in 1860, but we can start to be now. And the only way to have equality and fairness is to not give them anything that anyone else can not recieve.

Idea: Slavery profitted from the exploitation of others.
If African Americans today wanted to get something from the fact that their race was discriminated and exploited, would it not be fair to say that they are profitting from the exploitation of others?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Guest on 10:48 pm on Sep. 7, 2002
My views:

Blacks shoudn't recieve any repatritions from anyone. There were black slaveowners and black people sold other blacks into slavery. It was also to long ago and would be to complicated to pay everyone.

As for non whites not being equal to whites it is completley untrue nowadays. Blacks have Affirmative action where they get jobs over whites even if they are less qualified. This happens a hell of lot. I have talked to several whites who have been passed over for non whites even though they were more qualified. Also the vast majotrity of racial attacks are Black on White but whites only ever seem to get charged with hate crimes. One person i have talked to was attacked by three black people when he was walking home with his girlfriend. He won the fight and when the police arrived he was charged with a hatecrime rather than the black people. It's crap to say that non whites are discrimanated agaisnt in America today it's the other way round.




Your a fucking dumbass

Do you know what equality is?

It means equal no worse treatment no better treatment.

I don't like affirmative action because now white people are trying so hard not to be racist that they are being racist by not treating us equal.


THe only reason we have affirmative action is to make sure people don't discriminate.

If whites wouldn't discriminate they wouldn't have started it.

So we can't have it equal either way.

Either we get unfair better treatment or unfair worse treatment.

What equality?

If it was equal then affirmative action wouldn't exist.

And don't start this its the other way around bullshit.

If white people are being treated so bad then who's being treated so good?

It sure as hell aint us.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Ymir on 11:10 pm on Sep. 7, 2002
Everyone deserves equal rights. Not extra nor less than what everyone else recieves. It would be unfair to give African Americans money. Even an apology is not correct.
Life may not have been fair to them in 1860, but we can start to be now. And the only way to have equality and fairness is to not give them anything that anyone else can not recieve.

Idea: Slavery profitted from the exploitation of others.
If African Americans today wanted to get something from the fact that their race was discriminated and exploited, would it not be fair to say that they are profitting from the exploitation of others?



how is an apology from the government hindering average white person?

How much money is it costing you?

I'm not gonna go around asking every white person I see I just want one from teh government

[Guest]

African blacks, the ones who still live in africa should recieve repirations, I'm only for pretty much natives getting special treatment. Most african slaves in america would've been slaves anyway, only with black masters, there isn't much of a difference except they had better health care in america and you were probably traded around more. If they were going to be enslaved and placed as slaves in a rival tribe, then thats life... we don't demand repirations from leaders of tribes who owned slaves. I think its time we stop expecting the U.S to set the example in decency, they've proved it many times that it won't happen.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from Guest on 10:48 pm on Sep. 7, 2002
My views:

Blacks shoudn't recieve any repatritions from anyone. There were black slaveowners and black people sold other blacks into slavery. It was also to long ago and would be to complicated to pay everyone.

As for non whites not being equal to whites it is completley untrue nowadays. Blacks have Affirmative action where they get jobs over whites even if they are less qualified. This happens a hell of lot. I have talked to several whites who have been passed over for non whites even though they were more qualified. Also the vast majotrity of racial attacks are Black on White but whites only ever seem to get charged with hate crimes. One person i have talked to was attacked by three black people when he was walking home with his girlfriend. He won the fight and when the police arrived he was charged with a hatecrime rather than the black people. It's crap to say that non whites are discrimanated agaisnt in America today it's the other way round.


Your sence of equality is as pale as your face.

That last post from you is complete bullshit.
People were taken from their villages & towns and sold to slave masters.In many a case they were abducted.

Let you shut the fuck up about black history,Black people are the only ones that know their history,white people write history the way it was from their view.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Guest on 2:37 am on Sep. 8, 2002
African blacks, the ones who still live in africa should recieve repirations, I'm only for pretty much natives getting special treatment. Most african slaves in america would've been slaves anyway, only with black masters, there isn't much of a difference except they had better health care in america and you were probably traded around more. If they were going to be enslaved and placed as slaves in a rival tribe, then thats life... we don't demand repirations from leaders of tribes who owned slaves. I think its time we stop expecting the U.S to set the example in decency, they've proved it many times that it won't happen.



Did you read what I posted?

Not all the slaves in America were sold to them by African Leaders

alot were captured.

So they wouldn't have been slaves to black masters they would have continued living their lives peacefully