new civil war in afghanistan

[new democracy]

if you look at the news you all saw how karzay and the afghani government are weak. you saw how much inner conflicts there is inside the government and between the governments and the opposition. dont you think that somewhere in 2,003 there is going to start a new civil war in afghanistan?

[Mazdak]

probably, not everyone loves the great "Northern Alliance." They wont last.

[Edelweiss]

I don't think that the Taliban are really defeated, the war isn't over yet. The only area that the new puppet government really controls is Kabul, they haven't much power elsewere.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Malte on 9:02 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
I don't think that the Taliban are really defeated, the war isn't over yet. The only are the new puppet government realy controls is Kabul, they haven't much power elsewere.

Malte, if you don't understand that the taliban have been all but totally decimated and eradicated from power permanently, then you must have been living in a cave for the last 10 months.

[RedCeltic]

Eh... the way I understand it... no one truly runs Afghanistan.. just a bunch of local warlords. That's the way it was before actually only... most payed allegence to the Taliban. Now it's more like it was before the Taliban...... a big fuckin' mess.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:13 pm on Aug. 27, 2002

Quote: from Malte on 9:02 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
I don't think that the Taliban are really defeated, the war isn't over yet. The only are the new puppet government realy controls is Kabul, they haven't much power elsewere.

Malte, if you don't understand that the taliban have been all but totally decimated and eradicated from power permanently, then you must have been living in a cave for the last 10 months.


Let's speak again about this in a year...

[Xvall]

Malte, if you don't understand that the taliban have been all but totally decimated and eradicated from power permanently, then you must have been living in a cave for the last 10 months.

If the terrorists have been 'defeated' and 'eradicated'; why are we still fighting this stupid war?

[Anonymous]

Northern Alliance is even worse the talibans, wile the northern alliance was colaborating with the russians wen they atacked the talibans were fighting them! it was perhaps the only good thing the talibans did! at least they defended theyr own country! and after the russions leave afghanistam and the country was a mess, the northen allience caused troubles by attacking the talibans, reclaiming the power!

[munkey soup]

The Taliban wasn't even formed when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, and neither was the Northern Alliance. Please inform yourself before you make blatantly wrong statements.

A good resource would be "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid.

[RedCeltic]

uh... yea the student movement known as Taliban wasn't around during the Soviet occuption. It formed after the soviets pulled out as an answer to what they saw as degrading morality and disuinification.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 12:29 am on Aug. 28, 2002
Malte, if you don't understand that the taliban have been all but totally decimated and eradicated from power permanently, then you must have been living in a cave for the last 10 months.

If the terrorists have been 'defeated' and 'eradicated'; why are we still fighting this stupid war?


Because we are still rooting out terrorist cells and weapons caches, I didn't say they were 100% eliminated. They were, however, uprooted from power and mostly destroyed. That's why the people of afghanistan culd dig up their old TV's and radios, and the women could remove their burkas. We also are searching and destroying al queda camps and strongholds, which are different from the taliban.

You are right, drake, a lot more needs to be done, the taliban was merely the 1st step.

[RedCeltic]

I would like to hope that we have elimanated... at least a good portion of the Taliban and it's support. However I believe that the US only controls a small portion of Afghanistan and the Taliban has simply moved operations from public view.

Don't get me wrong, I find nothing repsectable about the Taliban, however I question if they are as easily eleminated as made out to be....

[new democracy]

what are you talking about? every week, if not a day, there is a new violent conflict between rival factions in afghanistan!!!! america destroyed the taliban as a ruling power, but didn't disarmed their fighters. and guess what? the taliban and bin-laden are not the only radical islamists in afghanistan!!!!! there is a strong radical islamic party called "hisb-islamy". and lately america tried to kill khakhmatir, the leader of hisb-islamy because there is a good chance that he will be an ally to the taliban and al-quaida. there is going to be another civil war!!!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 2:44 pm on Aug. 28, 2002
I would like to hope that we have elimanated... at least a good portion of the Taliban and it's support. However I believe that the US only controls a small portion of Afghanistan and the Taliban has simply moved operations from public view.

Don't get me wrong, I find nothing repsectable about the Taliban, however I question if they are as easily eleminated as made out to be....


Thats fine, the point is they are out of power, and that was our objective. The taliban weren't actually terrorists per-se, they were merely an oppressive regime that refused to assist the US with bringing the terrorists to justice, so we made them pay by usurping their authority in afghanistan

[suffianr]

"That's why the people of afghanistan culd dig up their old TV's and radios, and the women could remove their burkas"

Well, I must hand it to you, CI, you do make a splendid target! What do you mean by removing the burkhas? Are implying that America's so-called tactical victories have perverted Islamic practices by encouraging Muslim women to abscond from their religious beliefs?

The burkha is a part of religious symbolism, not a reflection of Westernization or female liberty. Your limited comprehension of the role of the burkha in Afghanistans belies the fact that you have succumbed utterly to the Western propaganda machine, that has perverted the delineation between culture, religion and ethnicity. Your previous post is all I need to sadly confirm your utter and complete ignorance... :(

[munkey soup]

Ha ha Suffianr. YOUR ignorance of Islamic tradition in Afghanistan worries me. The burkha is not a traditional dress of Afghani women(at least in groups other than the Pashtuns). In fact, when the communists were in charge( and before them as well), women in Mazar-e-Shariff and other of the larger cities wore jeans and dresses. But when the taliban took control around '94, in their twisted interpretation of the Sharia islamic code and their own traditions based from Pashtunwali (the Pashtun tribal code), they forced all the women to begin wearing burkhas.

I hate to attack my fellow leftists, but jesus people, inform yourselves.

[Moskitto]

People should be able to wear what they like.

note: does not apply to people who want to run around schools naked.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from suffianr on 3:41 pm on Aug. 28, 2002


Well, I must hand it to you, CI, you do make a splendid target! What do you mean by removing the burkhas? Are implying that America's so-called tactical victories have perverted Islamic practices by encouraging Muslim women to abscond from their religious beliefs?

The burkha is a part of religious symbolism, not a reflection of Westernization or female liberty. Your limited comprehension of the role of the burkha in Afghanistans belies the fact that you have succumbed utterly to the Western propaganda machine, that has perverted the delineation between culture, religion and ethnicity. Your previous post is all I need to sadly confirm your utter and complete ignorance... :(


It is you, sir (or madam) who is ignorant.

You are not distinguishhing between voluntary religious practice and forced religious practice. Do you also condone afghani women not being allowed to work or educate themselves, or even beg, even when they are widowed and have to support their children?

How about denying all afghani women medical care, is that ok too?

You apparantly support an oppressive regime likened to medeival practices and blatant bigotry and oppression

I can't believe you can't abstract out the difference between religious freedom and forced oppression. Yhe US did not tell the women to remove their burkhas, the women did so voluntarily, because they wanted to.

Of course, your lack of comprehension of the difference between free practice and forced practice and oppression fails you again.

It is also unfortunate that you make blanketed value-judgements about other's ignorance while your own lack of knowledge and understanding is so obviously exposed.

[suffianr]

The Burkha is not traditional dress, I never said it was. The Burkha is the result of the so-called rigid Shi'a interpretation of Islamic doctrine, which says that women must cover their hair with a Hijab and expose only the palm of their hands and their faces. The Shi'a, as opposed to the Sunni's, believe that it wasn't enough for women and through the issue of a fatwa (a religious decree from a council of Imam's) agreed that women should also cover their faces too. But this decree happened centuries ago, well before the Taliban.

But I don't understand why the Burkha is such a big issue. The Muslim women have to cover up anyway, it is part of their religious practice. The Burkha is only an addition to the overall dress code. It's Islamic culture, look at the Saudi's. If a Muslim women were to wear jeans and t-shirts, would she be less of a Muslim? Would she be more free because she doesn't need to cover up? But why is dress so mixed up between culture and religion?

I don't think that Afghan women are all that badly treated just because they live differently from your definition of how a women should dress, talk or behave. Some cultures are firmly entrenched in religion, and some religions are firmly entrenched in culture. Maybe those Afghan blokes are a little bit more hard than you or me, but is that being oppressive, or is that being different? Of course, according to a Western interpretation of dress, the Burkha is bad. But Afghan is a rough place, and the rural people there obviously don't associate the climate and weather with tank tops and a pair of thongs. They dress like Bedouins, layers and layers of cloth to keep warm at night, and coll during the day.

So, imagine if it was the other way round. Imagine if the Afghan's felt that the tank top was oppressive because it forced women to dress in tiny stips of cloth that exposed their stretch marks, cellulite and the world's supply of flabby arms. That is exposed more than a women felt comfortable with exposing. What if some Western women don't like to dress that way, but feel pressured because every other women seems comfy, and they're told to do the same.
But Western women wear it because their lads say it makes them look sexy. The papaers tells them Kate Moss looks sexy in tank tops, and the telly shows nothing but tank tops and bikinis in Baywatch, again, stressing that that is how women look their best. So, the Afghan's are thinking through their frame of reference, the Burkha, not through yours or mine. Think about it.

p.s./ Ok, CI, maybe I was wrong. But I'll hear your side of the story if you'll hear mine. I'm not supporting any Goddamned regime, I'm just trying to look at the other side of the coin.

[munkey soup]

I understand looking at the other side of the coin, and I understand they are a totally seperate culture from the western world, but when that culture interfers with the basic rights of a person, I will definately criticize it, and I will look down on it. I will not look at the world through the lens of moral relativism.

While under the rule of the Taliban, women were forced to wear these burkhas, they had no choice. And women were frequently beaten by officers from the Ministry of the suppression of temptation and vice (I know thats the wrong title, please correct me if you know the correct one) for even little infringements, like showing ankle.

The burkha is a big deal because it was forced on the women, they had no choice. If a muslim women wishes to cover up, thats fine, but if she covers up because she fears reprisals from men (who's leaders have kept intentionally ignorant and close-minded), then it is wrong.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Yes, MS, that is what I felt.

That is all we are saying, Suffy.

In the US, its a choice. In afghanistan, it was not.