A Call to Arms - Uribe's peasant troops.

[IzmSchism]

15,000 peasants over the duration of the next year will be called to training as an extra military force to exert more force on the leftist and FARC guerilla groups, as well the parmilitaries. Uribe plans to double the Colombian army by 2008.

Well over 3500 lives are lost on an annual basis to this roughly 38 year long civil war. Yet is it just to take un-trained peasants and throw them into battle with merciless guerillas (if you can call them that). I feel they will be made easy targets, and strengthen the fear and help grow the immobilisation of Colombias' people who are fighting for their struggle.

What do you guys think about this conscription?



(Edited by IzmSchism at 11:10 pm on Aug. 24, 2002)

[Ymir]

Sounds like a political stunt by Uribe.

Get peasants to fight, and when they die tragically blame it on the guerillas.

People will get angry at the guerillas and eventually they will be wiped out.
Unless the plan backfires and the people get completely enraged that they have to fight.

Either way Colombia is gonna be one fucked up place.

[Borincano]

He is pretty much forcing (Maybe even bribing them....) the poor and starving peasants to fight for him or die with 'them.' I see no difference between his 'new plan' and the FARC's strategy of forcing peasants to fight with them or die with 'them.' Either way, blood will be shed.

[GuerilleroUrbano]

Uribe only wants the FARCs to be looked as murderers on acount that the peasant troops will be ill prepared making any battle look like a massacre.

[concerned]

Quote: from Ymir on 11:27 pm on Aug. 24, 2002
Sounds like a political stunt by Uribe.

Get peasants to fight, and when they die tragically blame it on the guerillas.

People will get angry at the guerillas and eventually they will be wiped out.
Unless the plan backfires and the people get completely enraged that they have to fight.

Either way Colombia is gonna be one fucked up place.


Ymir, I am afraid you have no idea what you are talking about. Why does people always feel compelled to give their opinion on issues they know nothing about?? It beats me.

Anyway, first of all, Uribe is not getting peasants to fight. As a matter of fact none of them are going to have guns. He is simply training them on military intelligence so that they can be informants to the police and inform of suspicious activity.

Second of all, people ARE already angry at the guerrillas. And people want them wiped out, that is the reason Uribe was elected by such an overwhelming majority never before seen in Colombian history.

And Colombia is not going to be one fucked up place, thanks to the guerrillas Colombia is already one very fucked up place. The peasants whether they want it or not are already involved in the conflict and have been targeted in several occasions by the guerrillas. This course is just aimed at teaching them better on how to defend themselves and provide information to the local authorities.


(Edited by concerned at 12:50 am on Aug. 28, 2002)

[concerned]

Quote: from IzmSchism on 9:00 pm on Aug. 24, 2002
15,000 peasants over the duration of the next year will be called to training as an extra military force to exert more force on the leftist and FARC guerilla groups, as well the parmilitaries. Uribe plans to double the Colombian army by 2008.

Well over 3500 lives are lost on an annual basis to this roughly 38 year long civil war. Yet is it just to take un-trained peasants and throw them into battle with merciless guerillas (if you can call them that). I feel they will be made easy targets, and strengthen the fear and help grow the immobilisation of Colombias' people who are fighting for their struggle.

What do you guys think about this conscription?



(Edited by IzmSchism at 11:10 pm on Aug. 24, 2002)


IzmSchism, you should get better informed, he is not going to throw them into battle nor are they going to have weapons. I am afraid you are totally misunderstanding what Uribe is doing. I suggest you stop reading the liberal propaganda and find an unbiased newsreport, kid of hard these days, I know.

[concerned]

Quote: from GuerilleroUrbano on 10:16 pm on Aug. 25, 2002
Uribe only wants the FARCs to be looked as murderers on acount that the peasant troops will be ill prepared making any battle look like a massacre.


HELLOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WAKE UP!!!!

The guerrilla are already mass murderers. It has been happening for thirty years. Any Colombian know this!.

[concerned]

Quote: from Borincano on 1:42 am on Aug. 25, 2002
He is pretty much forcing (Maybe even bribing them....) the poor and starving peasants to fight for him or die with 'them.' I see no difference between his 'new plan' and the FARC's strategy of forcing peasants to fight with them or die with 'them.' Either way, blood will be shed.


He is not forcing anybody. It is a voluntary program. You should learn more about it before you start with your leftists especulations. And again the program is not for them to fight.

[Anonymous]

Anyway, first of all, Uribe is not getting peasants to fight. As a matter of fact none of them are going to have guns. He is simply training them on military intelligence so that they can be informants to the police and inform of suspicious activity.
Oh yea and that requires a lot of training! admidid man! they are using the peasants as the americans used black people in the viatnam war! in "Human shield operatons!"


I have seen this before, and about the goverments tactic of choice of geting the guerrilas by their familys? they capture their familys andkill all the women and old people, then the litle ones taht avent seen what the gov. is making with their familys and with their people are sold to america to be adopted! this is old and it has apened in other places!

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 6:58 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
You should learn more about it before you start with your leftists especulations.

I responded to what I read on this thread. If what IzmSchism is true, than my post stands. You wrote something different. I'm willing to learn from all perspectives. I think that may be hard for you to understand. If you please post documented information on your what you're writing about, then I may stand corrected. Still, IzmSchism and your comments both go without other sources on this thread, so who am I to believe? You're supposedly living in Colombia, but how am I to know that for sure? Write other sources and maybe I will learn more about something you supposedly know everything about.

[concerned]

Quote: from the anarchist on 1:00 am on Aug. 28, 2002

Anyway, first of all, Uribe is not getting peasants to fight. As a matter of fact none of them are going to have guns. He is simply training them on military intelligence so that they can be informants to the police and inform of suspicious activity.
Oh yea and that requires a lot of training! admidid man! they are using the peasants as the americans used black people in the viatnam war! in "Human shield operatons!"


I have seen this before, and about the goverments tactic of choice of geting the guerrilas by their familys? they capture their familys andkill all the women and old people, then the litle ones taht avent seen what the gov. is making with their familys and with their people are sold to america to be adopted! this is old and it has apened in other places!


Anarchist, get your head out of your ass and get informed about what is happening. Get your facts straight because you are full of BS. Try reading a reliable news source for a change.

[concerned]

Quote: from Borincano on 1:04 am on Aug. 28, 2002

Quote: from concerned on 6:58 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
You should learn more about it before you start with your leftists especulations.

I responded to what I read on this thread. If what IzmSchism is true, than my post stands. You wrote something different. I'm willing to learn from all perspectives. I think that may be hard for you to understand. If you please post documented information on your what you're writing about, then I may stand corrected. Still, IzmSchism and your comments both go without other sources on this thread, so who am I to believe? You're supposedly living in Colombia, but how am I to know that for sure? Write other sources and maybe I will learn more about something you supposedly know everything about.


Thanks for taking interest in my country anyway. Uribe's plan has been described in detail on the Colombian newspapers. One great source of information is www.eltiempo.com. This is Colombia's most circulated news paper. Unfortunately it is in Spanish. I'll try to find something in English and I'll post the source here when I find it.

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 7:11 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
Uribe's plan has been described in detail on the Colombian newspapers. One great source of information is www.eltiempo.com. This is Colombia's most circulated news paper. Unfortunately it is in Spanish. I'll try to find something in English and I'll post the source here when I find it.

I'm not too interested in Colombia. I'm interested in Latin America in general. Who owns El Tiempo? Like most Latin American newspapers, mostly rich businessesmen own them. I'm not pro-FARC or a communist, but I would like to see credible information from both perspectives.

Yo puedo leer español. Soy puertorriqueño. :)

(Edited by Borincano at 7:17 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)

[concerned]

Quote: from Borincano on 1:16 am on Aug. 28, 2002

Quote: from concerned on 7:11 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
Uribe's plan has been described in detail on the Colombian newspapers. One great source of information is www.eltiempo.com. This is Colombia's most circulated news paper. Unfortunately it is in Spanish. I'll try to find something in English and I'll post the source here when I find it.

I'm not too interested in Colombia. I'm interested in Latin America in general. Who owns El Tiempo? Like most Latin American newspapers, mostly rich businessesmen own them. I'm not pro-FARC or a communist, but I would like to see credible information from both perspectives.

Yo puedo leer español. Soy puertorriqueño. :)

(Edited by Borincano at 7:17 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)


El Tiempo is owned by the Santos family, and unfortunately, like the rest of the media they are sometimes a bit liberal. Being the pacifists that they are they were against Uribe from the very beginning. So actually you could trust them to at least not post any lies in the benefit of him, if anything they try to find things against him.

It is not a great source of information, but it is a good source nonetheless. They try to be objective to some extent.

[Borincano]

Quote: from concerned on 7:25 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
It is not a great source of information, but it is a good source nonetheless. They try to be objective to some extent.

Thanks. ;)

[andresG]

Well as long as the peasants are not being forced into combat and don't become like the death squads of Central America , I see little problems with this plan.

One problem I do see is that the FARC have Colombia pretty well controlled. When they find out that a peasant is informing the government, the peasant's family and his own life will be in jeopardy.

I will post more of my opinion later,
I am a little busy right now.

[IzmSchism]

This was from the Guerilla News Network, www.gnn.tv
The article was titled the top 25 skimmed over news stories of the year, or something like that...enjoy

# 3 United States' Policies in Colombia Support Mass Murder

Sources:
Counter Punch. July 1-15, 2001
Title: "Blueprints for the Colombian War"
Author: Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair - [email protected]

Asheville Global Report, October 4, 2001
Title: "Colombian Army and Police Still Working With Paramilitaries"
Author: Jim Lobe

Steelabor, May/June 2001
Title: "Colombian Trade Unionists Need U.S. Help"
Authors: Dan Kovalik and Gerald Dickey - [email protected]

Rachel's Environment & Health News, December 7, 2000
Title: "Echoes of Vietnam"
Author: Rachel Massey - [email protected]

Over the past two years, Colombia has been Washington's third largest
recipient of foreign aid, behind only Israel and Egypt. In July of 2000,
the U.S. Congress approved a $1.3 billion war package for Colombia to
support President Pastrana's "Plan Colombia." Plan Colombia is a $7.5
billion counter-narcotics initiative. In addition to this financial
support, the US also trains the Colombian military.


Colombia's annual murder rate is 30,000. It is reported that around 19,000
of these murders are linked to illegal right-wing paramilitary forces. Many
leaders of these paramilitary groups were once officers in the Colombian
military, trained at the U.S. Military run School of the Americas.


According to the Human Rights Watch Report, a 120-page report titled "The
'Sixth Division': Military-Paramilitary Ties and US Policy in Colombia,"
Colombian armed forces and police continue to work closely with right-wing
paramilitary groups. The government of President Pastrana and the US
administration have played down evidence of this cooperation. Jim Lobe says
that Human Rights Watch holds the Pastrana administration responsible for
the current, violent situation because of its dramatic and costly failure
to take prompt, effective control of security forces, break their
persistent ties to paramilitary groups, and ensure respect for human rights.
Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair contend that the war in Colombia
isn't about drugs. It's about the annihilation of popular uprisings by
Indian peasants fending off the ravages of oil companies, cattle barons and
mining firms. It is a counter-insurgency war, designed to clear the way for
American corporations to set up shop in Colombia.


Cockburn and St. Clair examined two Defense Department commissioned
reports, the RAND Report and a paper written by Gabriel Marcella, titled
"Plan Colombia: the Strategic and Operational Imperatives." Both reports
recommend that the US step up its military involvement in Colombia. In
addition, the reports make several admissions about the paramilitaries and
their links to the drug trade, regarding human rights abuses by the
U.S.-trained Colombian military, and about the irrationality of crop
fumigation.


Throughout these past two years, Colombian citizens have been the
victims of human rights atrocities committed by the U.S.-trained Colombian
military and linked paramilitaries. Trade unionists and human rights
activists face murder, torture, and harassment. It is reported that Latin
America remains the most dangerous place in the world for trade unionists.
Since 1986, some 4,000 trade unionists have been murdered in Colombia. In
2000 alone, more trade unionists were killed in Colombia than in the whole
world in 1999.



Another problem resulting from the Colombian "drug war" has been
the health consequences of the U.S.-sponsored aerial fumigation. Since
January 2001, Colombian aircraft have been spraying toxic herbicides over
Colombian fields in order to kill opium poppy and coca plants. These
sprayings are killing food crops that indigenous Colombians depend on for
survival, as well as harming their health. The sprayings have killed fish,
livestock, and have contaminated water supplies.



The U.S. provides slightly over 1 billion dollars of military aid for
what is known as "Plan Colombia," yet it is more a war against citizens and
those who are fighting for social justice. U.S. aid is not improving
conditions for the people of Colombia, but rather supporting the government
and right-wing paramilitary groups. According to an American member of the
international steelworker delegation, Jesse Isbell, who recently visited
Columbia, "The U.S. says one thing to the American public when in reality it
is [doing] something totally different. Our government portrays this as a
drug war against cocaine but all we are doing is keeping an ineffective
government in power."


Faculty Evaluators: Jorge Porras, Fred Fletcher, , Student Researchers:
Lauren Renison, Adam Cimino, Erik Wagle, Gabrielle Mitchell

[Pinko]

[concerned]
"And Colombia is not going to be one fucked up place, thanks to the guerrillas Colombia is already one very fucked up place."

No, thanks to the USA Columbia is a fucked up place.
It is the US' self-interested meddling that has caused most of the problems. Growing coca has become illegal (unless you grow it for the Coca Cola Corporation), the US sprays farms that grow coca with broad-spectrum herbicides. This kills the farmers food crops, forcing them to grow high cash yeild crops to pay for food next year, that crop is? You got it, coca.
The so called US aid package contains a measly $68.5 million to encourage farmers to grow other cash crops (like cotton and coffee), this is in comparason to the $519 million in military aid that the US gives. Maybe if the US sponsored hardline military regime were to treat the workers with a little more respect and humanity, the problems wouldn't be so severe.

Again, US meddling is killing people. The USA can only solve problems with military might, maybe they are too ineloquent to solve problems diplomaticly.

[concerned]

IzmSchism,

Guerrilla News Network????!!!! Well I guess THAT is a very reliable source...

Seriously, that article for the most part was a joke filled with inaccurate information and guerrilla propaganda.

>>According to the Human Rights Watch Report, a 120-page report titled "The
'Sixth Division': Military-Paramilitary Ties and US Policy in Colombia,"
Colombian armed forces and police continue to work closely with right-wing
paramilitary groups. The government of President Pastrana and the US
administration have played down evidence of this cooperation. Jim Lobe says
that Human Rights Watch holds the Pastrana administration responsible for
the current, violent situation because of its dramatic and costly failure
to take prompt, effective control of security forces, break their
persistent ties to paramilitary groups, and ensure respect for human rights.

Excuse me, but HRW is a joke, and they have no clue of what is going on in Colombia. HRW reports have been widely criticized for being guerrilla biased. It is common for HRW to blame governments for everything. Colombia is not the exception, they blame the whole thing on the government, and totally downplay and ignore what the guerrilla does. Read HRW reports carefully, can you find in there a report of the massacres of the guerrillas? No. The guerrillas are only mentioned as a side note at the very end of the reports, and it would seem as if they were the innocent victims of this all and this was all just a wide conspiracy of the government and the paramilitaries to massacre people.

It's pathetic and ignorant, really.


>>Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair contend that the war in Colombia
isn't about drugs. It's about the annihilation of popular uprisings by
Indian peasants fending off the ravages of oil companies, cattle barons and
mining firms. It is a counter-insurgency war, designed to clear the way for
American corporations to set up shop in Colombia.

Wrong again. And who the hell are Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair? Do they hold the ultimate truth? They most be some ignorant liberals who are always looking for the blame in the wrong places.

With a little knowledge of what is going on in Colombia, it is absurd to try to deny that the conflict in Colombia is in fact about drugs. And if you bother reading the news of this past week, you would see that the Indian peasants uprisings are as a matter of fact against the guerrillas. They are tired of guerrilla abuses. It's been all over the news, read about it. Don't bring the US here, because it has nothing to do with it.


>>Throughout these past two years, Colombian citizens have been the
victims of human rights atrocities committed by the U.S.-trained Colombian
military and linked paramilitaries. Trade unionists and human rights
activists face murder, torture, and harassment. It is reported that Latin
America remains the most dangerous place in the world for trade unionists.
Since 1986, some 4,000 trade unionists have been murdered in Colombia. In
2000 alone, more trade unionists were killed in Colombia than in the whole
world in 1999.

Yeah blame it all on the US, the militaries and the paramilitaries. That makes a lot of sense if you are left-wing. Ignore the facts. Let's not even mention the massacres of the guerrillas, or that the guerrillas are the sole organization in Colombia responsible for all the kidnappings of civilians (accounting for 70% of the kidnappings of the World). Let us not talk about the massacre of peasants by Farc in places like Bojaya. Let us not talk about the car bombs.

>>The U.S. provides slightly over 1 billion dollars of military aid for
what is known as "Plan Colombia," yet it is more a war against citizens and
those who are fighting for social justice. U.S. aid is not improving
conditions for the people of Colombia, but rather supporting the government
and right-wing paramilitary groups.

Hahahahaha...:)
This is the stupidest piece of junk I've ever read.
Yeah, right, it is a war "against the citizens and
those who are fighting for social justice". Is this what we call the guerrillas now??, citizens fighting for social justice..... this is outrageous.

And where is the proof of this. I would love to see the proof that even one cent of the aid given to Colombia went to the paramilitaries.

Really the person who wrote this shit either has no clue or is purposely trying to mislead people.


>>According to an American member of the
international steelworker delegation, Jesse Isbell, who recently visited
Columbia, "The U.S. says one thing to the American public when in reality it
is [doing] something totally different. Our government portrays this as a
drug war against cocaine but all we are doing is keeping an ineffective
government in power."

Oh really, Jesse Isbell!!!!!, from the international steelworker delegation!!, wow, now I am impressed, I guess if Mr. Isbell says so then it must be true. I guess his short trip to Colombia gave him the insight to know what is going on, better than anyone else. The steelworker delegation, wow, this guy must really know what he is talking about.





(Edited by concerned at 3:42 am on Sep. 1, 2002)

[concerned]

Agosto 31 de 2002
EL TIEMPO
Habitantes de Jambaló, dispuestos a resistirles a las Farc


En el sitio Pitayó (Silvia), a escasos 20 minutos de este pueblo caucano, los insurgentes salen al paso de vehículos particulares y de transporte intermunicipal para controlar el ingreso a esa zona.

El rumor que corre por esos caminos polvorientos y sin ninguna vigilancia de la Fuerza Pública es que la venganza de las Farc por la decisión indígena será peor que en Toribío, en donde el pasado 11 de julio los guerrilleros atacaron durante 20 horas a los pobladores que marcharon un día antes para apoyar a su alcalde.

A esto se suman los comentarios de que las Farc tienen dos modernos helicópteros ocultos en las montañas de Silvia preparándolos para ataques en la región.

Pero en el municipio, custodiado palmo a palmo por la guardia cívica, todos están tranquilos. Aseguran que con el esquema de seguridad que vienen aplicando desde cuando fue expedida la resolución 007, que declaró a sus 13 mil habitantes en resistencia civil, Jambaló está más resguardada que nunca.

"Ellos dicen que (las Farc) están a favor del pueblo, entonces no tiene porque disgustarles que queramos alejarnos del conflicto", dice uno de los líderes de la localidad.

Asegura que si los guerrilleros los quieren atacar ellos van a responder, pero no con las armas. "Nuestra propuesta busca la paz y no van a encontrar violencia, solo a una guardia cuidando a su pueblo con los bastones de mando", precisa el indígena.

Los nativos, guiados por sus autoridades tradicionales, trabajan ocho horas diarias en la elaboración de propuestas que permitan restablecer la tranquilidad y el orden en ese territorio ancestral.

Ni siquiera los constantes rumores de la llegada de la columna Jacobo Arenas de las Farc logran distraerlos de sus tareas.

Allí, desde el martes, no hay clases, nadie puede practicar ninguna actividad cultural, religiosa o deportiva, y el licor fue totalmente prohibido.

Los únicos habitantes que pueden infringir la 'ley de hierro' impuesta por los nativos, son los médicos y enfermeras del centro de salud, que laboran normalmente.

"Como no tenemos el apoyo de la Fuerza Pública, lo que nosotros buscamos es avanzar en propuestas reales que permitan devolver la gobernabilidad a Jambaló y evitar que cualquier grupo armado ingrese a nuestro territorio", dijo Camilo Ulcúe Casso, gobernador del cabildo de Jambaló.

La amenaza de una eventual ataque guerrillero y la información de los dos helicópteros en poder de las Farc llevaron a la realización de un consejo departamental de seguridad, donde el gobernador de Cauca, Floro Tunubalá, pidió a los organismos de seguridad estar alertas y reaccionar de manera inmediata para proteger la vida de la población civil.

POPAYÁN