All Right wings read this - A good question ?

[Communistus]

What is it that makes all you right wingers hate communism so !?!

[Xvall]

Now they're going to talk all about the Soviet Union and China. Even though none of those were communist states. And even if you point out the blatant fact that the communist theory existed long before these regimes were ever implemented; they will not shut up about them. If they do NOT talk about the USSR or China, they will rant on about how great America is; and all the 'liberties' and 'freedoms' it gives you; even though, once again, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the communist theory. I have yet to come across one of these people that actually argues about something in the MANIFESTO; and not something that Stalin, Pol Pot, Etc. Did.

[Sasafrás]

I think that before people start threads like these, they should look back onto other pages of the forum because there have been at least 3 of these types of threads before. It's annoying to see it over and over again.

[suffianr]

On a lighter note, it is somewhat amusing to see cappies vomiting the same old crap about Cold-War espoinage, gulags and Comrade Stalin's persecution of agent provocateurs...If you're lucky, you'll see some new bullshit today...It's like these people have ready-typed responses from CIA Counter-Intelligence 101 textbooks or something...OK, I'm bored... :)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Yeah, this has been gone over, about how the commies here will tell you that the countless oppressive communist regimes that have existed are perversions of "true communism".

And somehow, after many attempts, "true communism" never seems to generate itself.

Funny

[Xvall]

At least we acknowledge what Socialist (They weren't clasless monyless societies, so they weren't communist) Societies have done in the past; while YOU refuse to acknowledge all the 'un-democratic' regimes you have funded to slaughter their people.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I don't know waht you're talking about.

[Xvall]

Gah! Just forget about it.

[Anonymous]

ha ha!

[American Kid]

That's because a classless, moneyless society is an impossibility. Seriously, a "classless" society? That goes against human nature (ie our nature to discriminate against each other- which, no matter how many little pieces of paper or little metal coins you abolish, will always reside, incubating deep in our dark, underdeveloped hearts). A succesful attempt at this would be about as succesful as negating relgion (another of Carl's fables).

You see, Marx's writings (though I will admit I haven't read the "manifesto" itself, haven't got to that part of the biography yet) (I've read many essays and articles though) WERE righteous in their convictions and I believe he preached justice for the poor and impoverished vulgar masses a hundred and fifty years ago.

Now, the key words there are "a hundred and fifty years ago." His work, in a modern setting, is taken out of context; not in a literal sense, but a HISTORCIAL sense. His words are no doubt still powerful, but have aged to the point of irrelevance. There is no more boursgie, because we proleteriat have BECOME them. The middle class is the ruling class. Society has evolved to the degree where a normal, hard-working individual can get anything he needs in this world, regardless.

If you're homeless, there must be a reason. There's people to help. If you don't want it, then fuck off.

But why do I hate communism so much? Because it's a pipe dream. It's a carrot dangling from a stick attached to the rabbit's neck. Ideally, it would work. Ideally.

But ideally, a lot of shit would be different. And it won't. And communism infringes on my right to free speech, which again I'll say I'll put a fucking knife through your heart on the battlefield if you try to take from me.

Basically, communism's a pyramid scheme.

"Hey, just sign here, brah..."

-AK

[suffianr]

AK, it's interesting to see that you are yet another cappie who has not read Marx but is willing to take the liberty to criticise something that you are not entirely familiar about...But that's not really the point, because I'm not an expert on microeconomics either, so I 'll let you off for now...But come on now, how can the middle-class be the ruling class? Obviously, you've never even bothered to read about Indonesia, where there is absolutely NO middle-class because the gap between the rich and the poor is so wide that residents of Jakarta either live in posh, sprawling bungalow complexes next to expatriates or in the slums, sifting through the land-fill every day for the sort of things that you buy at the supermarket. Your understanding of economics would perhaps benefit from a little more exposure to real world scenarios, stop harping on the theory and take a look at capitalism in practice! The recessions that routinely hit South East Asia, caused by everything from the alleged rapid "overheating" of our volatile markets to aftershocks from plunges in the Nikkei index have continously de-stabilised the region for decades. The illusion of economic growth and prosperity hides the tragic abuses of power that have become synonymous with the dictatorships, capitalist dictatorships, that adorn the heads of government from Singapore to the Phillipines. Indonesia is and always will be mired in economic uncertainty, and so is the Phillipines, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, East Timor...
Education is a right, not a privilege, yet the education systems of most SE Asian countries are rapidly changing into vast private industries dominated by conglomerates and multi-national that DO NOT manitain quality standards or academic welfare akin to that of the West, exasperating as it is, I see that most educated "professionals" are just being churned out to fill the gaps that are currently being held by WHITE expatriates because of the brian-drain.
Capitalism, by far, is what is making us try so hard to catch up with the rest of the world, to be recognized, to be acknowledged and accepted. It is far from perfection over here in Asia, and it is poisoning the middle-class. You are obviously no proletariat. Do not ever speak that word again.

[American Kid]

I'm here to learn, my friend.

-AK

[rhetorical]

Obviously, you've never even bothered to read about Indonesia, where there is absolutely NO middle-class because the gap between the rich and the poor is so wide that residents of Jakarta either live in posh, sprawling bungalow complexes next to expatriates or in the slums, sifting through the land-fill every day for the sort of things that you buy at the supermarket.

Have you ever actually travelled to Indonesia? Well, I live only a few hundred miles from the country (I live in Singapore, which is, ironically, capitalist) and I can tell you for certain that Indonesia is not a capitalist nation. Its government is stifling, its justice system is ridden with corruption, and its economic structure, which is NOT based on capitalist principles, has been constructed to serve the interests of the political elite. Its failed because its non-capitalist system has failed.

I find it funny that the commies swear by capitalism's alleged "evils" and "immoralities", when self-proclaimed communist countries have been directly responsible for some of the worst human suffering ever witnessed in world history.

And the facts have been made glaringly clear by more than 2000 years of human cultural and civil evolution. Man possesses an insuppressable desire to excel beyond all limits. When that craving is crushed or threatened, the people become dissatisfied. Before long, they do rebel.

In its short history, capitalism has succeeded in transforming the west into a sprawling hub of political freedom, social pluralism, and economic productivity. It was from the seeds of the open market that the West emerged to become the most successful civilization on the planet. The very computer you use is a product of competitive industry. Until you communo-fascists figure that out, talk to the hand, 'cause the greedy, pig-like, capitalist face don't want to hear it no more.


(Edited by rhetorical at 11:48 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from rhetorical on 10:36 am on Aug. 27, 2002

Obviously, you've never even bothered to read about Indonesia, where there is absolutely NO middle-class because the gap between the rich and the poor is so wide that residents of Jakarta either live in posh, sprawling bungalow complexes next to expatriates or in the slums, sifting through the land-fill every day for the sort of things that you buy at the supermarket.

Have you ever actually travelled to Indonesia? Well, I live only a few hundred miles from the country (I live in Singapore, which is, ironically, capitalist) and I can tell you for certain that Indonesia is not a capitalist nation. Its government is stifling, its justice system is ridden with corruption, and its economic structure, which is NOT based on capitalist principles, has been constructed to serve the interests of the political elite. Its failed because its non-capitalist system has failed.

I find it funny that the commies swear by capitalism's alleged "evils" and "immoralities", when self-proclaimed communist countries have been directly responsible for some of the worst human suffering ever witnessed in world history.

And the facts have been made glaringly clear by more than 2000 years of human cultural and civil evolution. Man possesses an insuppressable desire to excel beyond all limits. When that craving is crushed or threatened, the people become dissatisfied. Before long, they do rebel.

In its short history, capitalism has succeeded in transforming the west into a sprawling hub of political freedom, social pluralism, and economic productivity. It was from the seeds of the open market that the West emerged to become the most successful civilization on the planet. The very computer you use is a product of competitive industry. Until you communo-fascists figure that out, talk to the hand, 'cause the greedy, pig-like, capitalist face don't want to hear it no more.


(Edited by rhetorical at 11:48 pm on Aug. 27, 2002)



Apparently, we have a new compatriot in the front against evil and opression, welcome, my friend. This wan an excellent post, and it illustrates a good point: many of these leftists point at what they call failed capitalist nations, when in reality they were never truly practicing free-market capitalism, but a psudo-dictatorial perversion hiding under the name of capitalism.

[suffianr]

Hey rhetorical, I'm Malaysian! But wait, don't hold that, or the water supply/ land reclamation issues, against me! :)

I'm mixed (Malay+Punjabi+Pakistani bloodline) but ethinically, I'm Malay, to keep it simple.

Well, my great grandparents left Indonesia, Sumatra to be exact, during the Confrontation, in the 1960's. Not because of communism, not because of Sukarnoe's killing sprees, not because they felt that they had more economic opprtunities in the newly formed nation of Malaysia, the future "bastion of democracy in South East Asia".

They were just settlers, Minangkabau, with relations over in Malaya dating back at least a few decades. Settlers do that. They just like to move around, from time to time. :)

They were part of the eventual exodus of Indonesians who believed in the historic and ideological concept of "Nusantara", that the entire Malay Archipelago is a chain of nations that should be united under one sovereign leadership, instead of being seperate nation-states. Sort of like having a USSR but without the ideology, to illustrate simply.

No, I haven't been to Indonesia, and I shouldn't talk like I have. But a relative of mine was posted there recently as a diplomat with the consulate and she has told me everything about it. I have distant family there, and I have some close Indonesian friends over here in Malaysia. These friends, they are the lucky ones.

Generally, Indonesian students in Malaysia almost entirely come from families in the elite income bracket, whose parents are loaded enough to afford maintaining their children overseas with houses, cars, money...The other group of Indonesians here are the poor, who are the maids, labourers, factory workers, plantation workers, cleaners, you get the idea..There is no middle-class.

I'm not angry with my friends for being rich, but I hate the fact that their fellow countrymen live in squalor and absolute misery a few blocks from their houses in the rich districts of Jakarta. And they are oblivious. Of course.

Btw, Singapore is only about 20 miles away from Pulau Batam, the nearest Indonesian island. And just about 50 miles from the bigger, densely populated ones. Get yer facts right, mate! :)

p.s./ Ak, it wasn't my intention to pick a fight with you, I just get a little edgy over here in this forum, and I'm sometimes overwhlemed by the need to "shout" at people who I consider my ideological opponents. No worries, mate, I'm here to learn too... :)

[suffianr]

CI, don't congratulate yourself on the foggy idea that there's people who you can stick to for support in this forum. Indonesia isn't the only pseudo-dictatorship hiding under capitalism. Take a good look at your avatar, Mr SmartyPants, and try not to smile. :)

[Moskitto]

many of these rightists point at what they call failed communist nations, when in reality they were never truly practicing communism, but a psudo-dictatorial perversion hiding under the name of communism.

[new democracy]

i dont accept the idea that there were no communist state's. maybe marx would be ashamed at those countries, and maybe those countries didn't REACH communism, but the REGIME'S in those countries were communist. the LEADERS of those countries were communist. when people here in say that there were no communist states they mean that the leaders were no true communist. the cappis here said: countries like indonesia are no true capitalists. you know how ridiculous it sound!? when indonesia got independence their first president, sukarno, was socialist. in 1,967 there was a coup. the new president, suharto, became great friend of capitalist countries like japan, usa, israel and other western countries. from the start of his terror regime he promote market economy. he was capitalist. he was the perfect capitalist: cruel, rich, corrupt and UNDEMOCRATIC.

[Moskitto]

I was actually taking the piss out of CI because he criticizes the same reasoning being used in reverse.

[Xvall]

I find it funny that the commies swear by capitalism's alleged "evils" and "immoralities", when self-proclaimed communist countries have been directly responsible for some of the worst human suffering ever witnessed in world history.

There were never any communist countries? Do you know what a communist society is defined as? One without class, and one without money. Please point me to a 'moneyless - communist' country? Russia? Not communist. Cambodia? Pol-Pot was a Khmer supremacist and an opportunist. The only reason we are not talking about capitalism being 'evil' is because half the right-wingers on this board do nothing but rant on about Stalin and Pol Pot; talking about the evil communists that killed billions of people! If you insist that indonesia is not true capitalism; then acknowledge that the USSR and other such socialist states do not represent true communism.

[Xvall]

when in reality they were never truly practicing free-market capitalism, but a psudo-dictatorial perversion hiding under the name of capitalism.

Then acknowledge that Pol Pot and Stalin were psudo-dictatorial perverts hiding under the name of Communism and Socialism; you hypocrite. All you people do is rant about about 'communist dictators'; yet you refuse to acknowledge your own, instead claiming that they aren't 'true capitalists'. (Something we've been saying about Stalin and Pol Pot in relation to communism since the freaggin begining!)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from suffianr on 3:50 pm on Aug. 27, 2002
CI, don't congratulate yourself on the foggy idea that there's people who you can stick to for support in this forum. Indonesia isn't the only pseudo-dictatorship hiding under capitalism. Take a good look at your avatar, Mr SmartyPants, and try not to smile. :)


My nickname is faciscious, and the the USA is far from a dictatorship, you must admit that.

[Xvall]

It's close enough to a dictatorship to me. Who has the power? It's more of a multiple-dictatorship or olgiocracy of some sort. Congress makes decisions for you. We hardly vote on anything? Did you vote for the Patriot Act? How about the War on Terrorism? Is this democracy CI?

[Anonymous]

We are a Republic.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Drake...

No, but I voted for the representatives that voted for the war on terror. The american majority supports the war on terror and the patriot act, so the system works!

BTW, DC is correct, we have a democratic republic, where constituencies vote in representatives to vote for them.

If the people were to vote on every piece of legislation before congress, it would take to much time for us to vote and count said votes, it would not be efective at all.

Also, on local levels we do vote directly on propositions and measures.

We have a system of checks and balances that prevents our system from representing anything close to a dictatorship or oligarchy.

Commies and their false comparisons are rather frustrating

[Xvall]

No, but I voted for the representatives that voted for the war on terror.

Shame on you! Besides, this was before the war on terrorism. You didn't elect them, knowing that they would concot one.

The american majority supports the war on terror and the patriot act, so the system works!

Really? Back this up. Is there a poll? Did they go around asking every American? Besides, If you show me a poll, surely it was only taken by a few people in a select area. Were you polled? Was I polled? No, and therefore and 'polls' or 'evidence' you present is obsolete, since it is impossible to gather everyone's opinions and views on the subject. In fact, 50% of the countries population probably doesn't even know what the patriot act is!

is correct, we have a democratic republic, where constituencies vote in representatives to vote for them.

Either you're stupid, or you're lazy. Why do you need other people to make important decisions for you? Why do you need this 'mommy/daddy' figure?

If the people were to vote on every piece of legislation before congress, it would take to much time for us to vote and count said votes, it would not be efective at all.

The only reason you have all of these pieces of legislation is because your government is constantly at war with someone or something. Half your 'bills' being passed are probably about the War on Terrorism. People should have a right to choose, and at least SEE what will control and affect their lives. And once again, claiming it would take too long is a sign of PURE LAZINESS.

Also, on local levels we do vote directly on propositions and measures.

Local Levels! LOL! Yes, like voting for what type of tree to plant in the park! Please; most local things you're allowed to vote on are irrelivent and usually unimportant, as local ballots do not include important things like DECLARING WAR on another nation!

We have a system of checks and balances that prevents our system from representing anything close to a dictatorship or oligarchy.

Of course! That's why half of congress is full of criminals, robbers, and people who have accused of various crimes ranging from spousal abuse, to fraud!

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 10:14 pm on Aug. 28, 2002)

[Smith]

I think Communism is an unworkable idea because it goes agaisnt human nature. Somebody will always be corrupted by power. I agree with Socialist economics in genarel and i think it is a system that can work. The countries with the best living conditions have socialist economies eg Norway.