Zimbabwe -what the fuck, chuck?

[American Kid]

I've said it a million times before, I know you're all sick of it, but I'm going to say it again:

It's time for a free Zimbabwe, people.

Actually, it's the first time I've ever said that.

But Zimbabwe is fucked up. Our friend Mugabe is over there being a world-class (literally) asshole. He's the "president" who was elected over there in the last "elections". He's also a fucking asshole.

In Southern Africa, the shit is thick. They're going through a major drought. The people there are in big trouble and dire need of assistance. Being the central-most country in the region, Zimbabwe need more help than the other; but being under the thumb of a two-bit dictator, they're recieving the least.

First of all, when they get our food (300, 000 tons so far), Mugabe's men distribute mainly to PARTY SUPPORTERS. Ugh, such a dick.

Many of the farmers from Zimbabwe aren't growing any crops for their own because Mugabe took away their farms and gave them to HIS RELATIVES AND BUDDIES. Seriously. These "non-farmers" have been less than succesful you can imagine.

Also, the Mugabe regime manipulates inflation in the country and literally "makes up" new exchange rates for it's own currency, which, understanbably, makes most governments pass them over in "who should we deal with" capacity. Zimbabwe's finance minister tried to rectify the situation, and so Mugabe had him punished.

I hope I've been spelling Mugabe right.

-AK

[Anonymous]

But Zimbabwe is fucked up. Our friend Mugabe is over there being a world-class (literally) asshole. He's the "president" who was elected over there in the last "elections". He's also a fucking asshole.
Kinda reminds me of BU$h!!


Also, the Mugabe regime manipulates inflation in the country and literally "makes up" new exchange rates for it's own currency, which, understanbably, makes most governments pass them over in "who should we deal with" capacity. Zimbabwe's finance minister tried to rectify the situation, and so Mugabe had him punished.
Kinda reminds me of Bu$h policys

Since when Cappies actually worry about Africa? yes because your system is selling guns to Angola in exchange for diamonds, the same guns that will be on the hands of 12 years old boys that are forced to fight daily in angola, your system fucks Africa, sells guns to the war lords in exchange for diamonds and drugs, and now you are worryed with Zimbabwe because they are kicking the whites out of theyr country, i am against Mugabe too, but your fake concern makes me sick!

[j]

I guess I don't really know what to think of Mugabe. I kind of agree with him that the white farmers should give up their land (I mean, the blacks have been working the farms forever and constitute like 98% of the country). The small number of whites control a good percentage of the land--the land they only have because of imperialism and atrocities against blacks. But I don't agree with the severe racism that Mugabe seems to have.

Were the elections rigged? Who knows. I mean, the Zimbabwe papers say it was legit but they are controlled by Mugabe. Other African papers and sources have mixed opinions, while the west is says they were definitly rigged. Who do you believe?

I guess I don't really know a whole lot about the situation--but I have mixed feelings. I guess I agree with many of Mugabe's policies but not his tactics. But that could all wrong, too.

j

[American Kid]

anarchist, it's your fatal, biased hyper-partisanship which relagates you to being one of the least-interesting, inconsequencial members of this board (if not the planet). If my concern was so fake, I would've just posted a link.

Our system fucks Africa? Where else are the people of Southern Africa going to get food if we don't help them? I'm not familiar with this dastardly diamonds-for-gats agreement you're screaming about, enlighten me.

And as far as how much aid we've given them, the total dollar amount of food adds to thirty million. How much has Portugal given, I wonder? Or you, brah?

And answer this for me:

"cappie"= ?

-AK

[vox]

Well now, isn't this interesting?

AK doesn't like Mugabe. That's the way to go out on a limb. After all, who DOES like Mugabe?

However, AK doesn't mention that, after the war of independence Britain and the US promised $2 billion for land reform, but that didn't happen. The idea was that the government could buy the good, arable land, two-thirds of which is owned by whites, and distribute it to native farmers. The Western capitalist nations have handed Mugabe a great issue by breaking their promise.

As Monbiot points out:

"Just like Mugabe, the rich world has also been using 'food aid as a political weapon'. The United States has just succeeded in forcing Zimbabwe and Zambia, both suffering from the southern African famine, to accept GM maize as food relief.

"Both nations had fiercely resisted GM crops, partly because they feared that the technology would grant multinational companies control over the foodchain, leaving their people still more vulnerable to hunger. But the US, seizing the opportunity for its biotech firms, told them that they must either accept this consignment or starve."

In that same piece, Monbiot says that "There is no doubt that Mugabe is a ruthless man, or that his policies are contributing to the further impoverishment of the Zimbabweans. But to suggest that his land seizures are largely responsible for the nation's hunger is fanciful.

"Though the 4,500 white farmers there own two-thirds of of the best land, many of them grow not food but tobacco. Seventy per cent of the nation's maize - its primary staple crop - is grown by black peasant farmers hacking a living from the marginal lands they were left by the whites."

Also, when talking about Zimbabwe I don't see how the AIDS epidemic can be avoided. 25.9% of adults in Zimbabwe are infected. Any social spending for that?

Well, the World Bank had different ideas in Zimbabwe:

"The World Bank and its market- driven health policies are getting the ire of health activists and experts here, who say the Bank's cures are harming the developing- country patients they seek to help.

"Criticism of the bank and health priorities driven by the market peaked has been a key theme of the ongoing People's Health Assembly (PHA) here, but peaked during a stormy face-off Wednesday.

"At that session between the World Bank and health activists, Bank representative Richard Lee Skolnik was treated to the display of a giant cloth montage with brightly embroidered newspaper headlines, which told stories of the harmful effects of the Bank's structural adjustment programme (SAP) in Zimbabwe.

"The headlines spoke of rising food prices, increasing crime, and labour retrenchment."

While it's easy to blame a thug like Mugabe for all of the problems in Zimbabwe, we should remember that Mugabe does not exist in a vacuum. The rest of the world assists him in various ways.

vox

[Anonymous]

anarchist, it's your fatal, biased hyper-partisanship which relagates you to being one of the least-interesting, inconsequencial members of this board (if not the planet)
My intencion was never to be interesting, neither to be consequencial, all i know is that many of my well documented posts (like the one about Angolagate that you forgot about!) no cappie has ever made a correct or lets say a "ok" excuse for many american bulshit! i am not-interesting? and you should think you are a good writher no?


Our system fucks Africa? Where else are the people of Southern Africa going to get food if we don't help them? I'm not familiar with this dastardly diamonds-for-gats agreement you're screaming about, enlighten me.

Oh you want enlightment? here you have http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc441.html


And as far as how much aid we've given them, the total dollar amount of food adds to thirty million. How much has Portugal given, I wonder? Or you, brah?
Portugal- teachers, medical aid, equipement (computers, etc) me- my monthly donation to the lepra, my anual donation of clothes, and my seasonal donation to the Portuguese bank of hunger (i usualy send rice and beans and other canned food) and i ask you what have you give to them?


And answer this for me:

"cappie"= ?

I think you know what i will say!!! so i will leave this to you


from that bastard that is always that pain in your cappie ass - Lowers

[American Kid]

This is why I hate when people "quote".

I was going to bring this up with my friend Lardlad too, who has a filthy habit of sometimes listing FOUR or FIVE different quotes at a time, before finally getting into his own thing.

Here's the deal, anarchist, my computer, it doesn't display tiny-type very well. This makes it hard to read PM's sometimes. So, all those quotes you just posted, might as well be Japanese. I can't read a single word. Um, to rectify this, I don't know (can't say I was on the edge of my seat for your response, brah). But it almost looks like you quoted nearly the whole thread in it's entirety, which has me scratching my head.

So, again, in English, define "cappie".

And don't be a wiseass.

-AK

[American Kid]

VOX: wut up, brah?

First off, there isn't a famine in Southern Africa. It's a drought.

The difference is a famine is when the price of food is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the average income of the average income-yet. A drought is like a notch below. And yes, these are legitimate definations. What's happening in Southern Africa is more close to what happened in Afganistan than anything else. But it's not a famine-yet.

And as I understand it, Mugabe wouldn't TAKE any of our food UNLESS it was "processed' bio-trickery. That was one of their demands.

-AK

[IzmSchism]

ummm, also.......

Persons holding private pensions, [(those working/ supporting) for Mugabe, as well as the hundreds of white/ land owning (for now) farmers)] are by law ordered to invest 45% of their pensions into T-bills (owned by the government) at a guarunteed ROR of 25%, seeing that they pin inflation at around 116%, this is like throwing your money into the competent hands of AK.wink! Anyways, furthermore, onward and downward the people of Zim go. Basically it is like a bank taking the money you pay towards your mortgage, giving it to a bunch of thugs, who in turn go and burn your house down. Mugabe steals from his own people to keep his party in power so he can starve them and steal their land and money. And what do we do about it? A couple countries will not recognize it as part of the commonwealth for an entire year when the diplomatic ties will be put up for review?!? Go in, give him a labotomy and feed the starving children his body parts, get the people who know how to run farms back in business, instead of all being shacked up with their colt 45., and get dem' bellies full
"an h'ungry mob is an angry mob"

[Anonymous]

AK: what a stupid excuse for not having to respond my posts! yes because if today is the quotes then tomorrow is the not correct english, men get some good excuse will you? you always do stupid stuff like "KID here, how are you today? let me have your coat" stuff that makes me dont want to read your posts!

But i am not mean and soo i will re-type my last post (i shouldnt but i will)


"anarchist, it's your fatal, biased hyper-partisanship which relagates you to being one of the least-interesting, inconsequencial members of this board (if not the planet)"

My intencion was never to be interesting, neither to be consequencial, all i know is that many of my well documented posts (like the one about Angolagate that you forgot about!) no cappie has ever made a correct or lets say a "ok" excuse for many american bulshit!

"Our system fucks Africa? Where else are the people of Southern Africa going to get food if we don't help them? I'm not familiar with this dastardly diamonds-for-gats agreement you're screaming about, enlighten me."

Oh you want enlightment? here you have http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc441.html


"And as far as how much aid we've given them, the total dollar amount of food adds to thirty million. How much has Portugal given, I wonder? Or you, brah?"

Portugal- teachers, medical aid, equipement (computers, etc)

Me-my monthly donation to the fighting of lepra, my anual donation of clothes, and my seasonal donation to the Portuguese bank of hunger (i usualy send rice and beans and other canned food)

America- factorys, so that the africans can be exploited, Tourist guies, so rich people can make safaris, debts, so africa never rises and become a world power


"And answer this for me:

"cappie"= ? "

I think you know what i will say!!! so i will leave this one to you




from the bastard that is always that pain in your cappie ass - Lowers



Now i think what stupid excuse you will invent so that you dont have to reply!

[vox]

"The difference is a famine is when the price of food is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the average income of the average income-yet. A drought is like a notch below. And yes, these are legitimate definations."

Source, please.

I notice that you don't talk about very much of what I said, but you do say that Zimbabwe "demanded" GM products. Any documentation of that? I read a fair amount of news and opinion, but I've yet to see that claim made by anyone but you.

vox

[American Kid]

anarchist: flattered and laughing out loud (swear to God)

vox: source: c-span, last night

[Anonymous]

"anarchist: flattered and laughing out loud (swear to God) "

now theres a good excuse to dont answer my posts!

Swear to god? then you lost since god is dead! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[American Kid]

Okay, anarchist, this is fucked up:

I respect the fact you give to the lepra.......thing. Seriously, and I have no reason to believe you're lying either (I'm not being facetious). I respect the fact that you're giving clothes and all that.

That's a good thing. American Kid isn't going to argue against that.

And thank you for re-typing the goddamn thing (this is LEGIT thing, anarchist, I've already mentioned it before with people I PM).

However, I find you unfairly pessismsitic. Yes, we put factories in Africa...........so people can have JOBS. Not so they're our slaves. And being a safari guide is still a job. And a job is a job is a job.

And why would you want Africa to be a world power? Wouldn't that mean that they'd've risen to the same imperialistic, world-dominating, evil heights my country has?

-AK

[vox]

AK,

C-Span was the source for which, the "average income of the average income-yet" theory or the "Mugabe wouldn't TAKE any of our food UNLESS it was "processed' bio-trickery" theory?

Also, do you happen to remember who said it on C-Span?

By the way, since you pointed out in your post the economic aspect of famine, I'm wondering how drought and famine can be on the same scale (for you say that drought is a "notch" below famine, somehow) at all, because drought, while having economic repercussions, isn't in and of itself born or economics, and you seem to suggest that famine is. Care to clarify that for everyone?

vox

[IzmSchism]

Also, pretty please with a big black dildo on top.

Can you explain the similarities of how the seperate situations of Zimbabwe and Afghanistan are similar? As you stated in an earlier post. I might be missing something. Wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks ol' chap.

[vox]

"And thank you for re-typing the goddamn thing (this is LEGIT thing, anarchist, I've already mentioned it before with people I PM)."

Uh, you know that on IE you can click on view>text size>larger, right?

vox

[American Kid]

I don't, vox. But thank you, I do now.

C-span.............son of a........I'm going to go to the site because I know they have a lot of stuff.

It was a little newsconference.........it was a branch of the State dept.......see, shit I have to go the site. But yeah, Afganistan was mentioned as having been in a "notche" below famine on the scale.

vox, I agree, I thought it was strange they were defining drought and famine in terms of economics, which is counter to how you usually think of them, I know. But it's what dude was talking about. I'm going to go the site and find it, shouldn't be hard. Maybe it's in today's paper.

Be back.

-AK

[vox]

"vox, I agree, I thought it was strange they were defining drought and famine in terms of economics, which is counter to how you usually think of them, I know."

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. Famine can be caused by many things, and it's true that price of food is one of them (see Sen for more on this). However, drought can't be caused by economics.

Food distribution is often used in wars and can be used to control a population. Mugabe may be doing just that, but then, the Western powers seem to be doing the same thing, and if we agree, and I think we do, that Mugabe is a thug, then where does that leave the Westerners?

vox

[American Kid]

Here's the best I can do:

http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspa...ecord=157890813 (http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/cspan.esp?command=dprogram&record=157890813)

Don't expect much. It's just a few stills from yesterdays press conference, but it does have the names of the State Department guys who did it and other things which I'm sure you could use a browser to find out more about. It'll maybe help explain a little better what I've said here.

I'd do it myself but I don't feel like it.

-AK

[Deamon]

Mugabe could've punished the white farmers, oops I mean make them reconcile for the their racist behaviours in the past, by incresing taxation or something, and then giving the funds to the less fortunate members of his country, but racism, and selfishness blinds him and he thusly starves his country. If we're willing to dispose of saddam for being some ruthless dictator or whatever he's being called now, then do the same to mugabe who unlike saddam, is seriously lacking in the intelligence sector.

[j]

Sadaam and Mugabe are totally different. If you are going to these great lengths of associations why not put Bush in the mix???!!!

If you can find ANY simmilarities with S. Hussein and Mugabe....please, please, post them here.

I think that Mugabe is in the right about taking the farms from the whites. After all, the only reason the whites have them is because of the subjugation of the blacks. However, his tactics are not the best. Taxing these farmers does not give actually turn the means of production over to the blacks.

j

[Deamon]

Right! As I pointed out, Mugabe is stupider :D

Sure Mugabe doesn't kill his own people, with weapons anyway, but he allows them to starve. I'd rather be vaporized by a new type of bomb than starve.

[j]

Quote: from Deamon on 11:07 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
Right! As I pointed out, Mugabe is stupider :D


How is Mugabe "stupider" (technically, more stupid) than Sadaam?

j

[Deamon]

Saddam has yet to endanger his position of power or take sides in his country, he generally only supports himself and very important supporters of himself, mugabe supports even the poor members of his party, people get resentful, he should realise this.

[j]

Maybe that makes him politically more stupid but not socially. Mugabe claims to be a Marxist and therefore it would not make sense for him to not support the poorer members if he is to keep up his facade of Marxism.

I believe that both men are relatively intelligent....I mean, how could you become the leader of a country and not be intelligent?? (oh wait, George W. just blew that theory, dammit!!)

j

[Anonymous]

"And why would you want Africa to be a world power? Wouldn't that mean that they'd've risen to the same imperialistic, world-dominating, evil heights my country has?"

When i said world power, i meant a world power like most west countrys, (france, canada, England, Spain, etc..)

[Moskitto]

You know those people who were taking land for "land redistribution"?

Well one of them wrote his story in the Independant. Basically he's applied to get his bit of land, but he's been told he won't get any, why? Because he's not a ZANU-PF member. Land redistribution my ass.

[I Will Deny You]

A famine is when there's no food. A drought is when there's no water.[hr]Quote: from vox on 4:53 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
after the war of independence Britain and the US promised $2 billion for land reform, but that didn't happen. The idea was that the government could buy the good, arable land, two-thirds of which is owned by whites, and distribute it to native farmers.[hr]That would have been the way to do it. It seems more fair than anything I can think of (which is probably why I'm not running a country right now . . . well, that and my lack of a penis).[hr]Quote: from vox on 4:53 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
"Just like Mugabe, the rich world has also been using 'food aid as a political weapon'. The United States has just succeeded in forcing Zimbabwe and Zambia, both suffering from the southern African famine, to accept GM maize as food relief.

"Both nations had fiercely resisted GM crops, partly because they feared that the technology would grant multinational companies control over the foodchain, leaving their people still more vulnerable to hunger. But the US, seizing the opportunity for its biotech firms, told them that they must either accept this consignment or starve."[hr]The UN should have a tighter control on food aid, and take lots of control from the IMF and World Bank. A council of diplomats should make sure that the food distribution is fair.[hr]Quote: from vox on 4:53 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
"Though the 4,500 white farmers there own two-thirds of of the best land, many of them grow not food but tobacco. Seventy per cent of the nation's maize - its primary staple crop - is grown by black peasant farmers hacking a living from the marginal lands they were left by the whites."[hr]There should be a law that anyone who devotes land to tobacco should have to grow twice as much maize as tobacco. Does the tobacco stay in the country, or go around the world? I'd like to know if any American cigarette companies are using Zimbabwean tobacco.[hr]Quote: from vox on 4:53 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
"The World Bank and its market- driven health policies are getting the ire of health activists and experts here, who say the Bank's cures are harming the developing- country patients they seek to help. [hr]Ethiopia broke off from the World Bank and this helped them a lot. Zimbabwe should, too.[hr]Quote: from vox on 4:53 pm on Aug. 21, 2002
While it's easy to blame a thug like Mugabe for all of the problems in Zimbabwe, we should remember that Mugabe does not exist in a vacuum. The rest of the world assists him in various ways.[hr]Agreed.

Lindsay

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Moskitto on 11:07 pm on Aug. 22, 2002
Well one of them wrote his story in the Independant. Basically he's applied to get his bit of land, but he's been told he won't get any, why? Because he's not a ZANU-PF member. Land redistribution my ass.

You're talking about Basildon Peta right?? Damn straight my son. Peta is black, a leading dissident of Zanu-PF, and The Independent's Zimbabwean correspondent. He got arrested for dissenting the system and since then has been unable to get any land, as is the case for all MDC supporters (or even neutrals). Basically, Mugabe's been doing Brezhev-esque cronyism ever since this whole thing blew up. It's fucking terrible. I hope Zimbabwe sees a revolution soon.

[I Will Deny You]

According to The Ironic Times (http://www.ironictimes.com/0102-p3.html), Mr. Blackwell or whatever his name is says that Mugabe is the worst-dressed leader alive. ("An oversized bowling ball in Sans-a-Belts.")

Lindsay

[Pinko]

Mugabe is a nastly piece of work. The cheering masses you see around when he makes public appearances are carefully vetted supporters. His cavalcade gets a full military escort wherever he goes, they have free reign to shoot anyone comming within 60 feet of his car. That man has such a tight hold on that country.
The elections were rigged, there is so much evidence for it. Their neighbouring countries didn't like to make accusationas because there are important trade link at risk. The independant election inspectors were kept away for contentious places, yet they said that the elections were almost certainly rigged.
Most of this mess is down to broken promises from the UK. We really did a number on Africa. Hell, we still are.