admit it!!

[new democracy]

capitalism=injustice and inequality!!! everybody know that is what cappis like but i just want to see every cappi say: i advocate injustice and inequality!!!

[concerned]

I advocate justice and inequality.
Actually the justice comes from the inequality. Not all of us do the same amount of work or contribute in the same way to society, so not all of use deserve the same wage. If you are promoting equality, you are not promoting justice.

[new democracy]

where is the justice? why does the workers work so hard and their bosses get more than them? there is justice in making money from other people work?

[concerned]

Starting a company is usually very hard and involves a lot of work. It also brings a lot of economical risks. If the company grows bankrupt the workers just go and find another job while the owners have to stay figure out a way to pay the liabilities.

Bosses earn more than workers because the work they do is more specialized. Workers may work hard but the jobs they do are usually pretty basic and they are easily replaceable. The difference in earning has to compensate for the time and money spent for education such as college.

If it wasn't for these differences in wages people wouldn't have any incentive to go the extra effort to become doctors, engineers, lawyers... people would become mediocre at what they do because they would know it wouldn't affect their lifestyle.

Justice comes from letting the free market determine how much a particular job is needed in society, and with the supply and demand of people capable of performing the job, establish its value to society.

If there is high supply of people because the job is pretty basic, then wages will tend to be lower, and this is ultimately purposed to encorage people who are in this situation to try to improve themselves and their education to find something else in which they can add more value to society and consequently earn more money for themsleves.

[man in the red suit]

but can you really possibly support these 10 million dollar bonuses that the owners are making even when the company is not MAKING ANY PROFITS!?!

come on! even my capitalist father admits that this is a great injustice. Surely any capitalist must agree if he/she is in their right mind!

[concerned]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 1:51 am on Aug. 18, 2002
but can you really possibly support these 10 million dollar bonuses that the owners are making even when the company is not MAKING ANY PROFITS!?!

come on! even my capitalist father admits that this is a great injustice. Surely any capitalist must agree if he/she is in their right mind!

Yes, I agree. Some kind of legislation should pass on this respect to avoid these kinds of absurd things from happening. These is actually nothing more than thievery to the company, not by the owners/investors, but by their managers (which are usually not the same people in a large corporation).

Capitalism has its problems, and there are certainly aspects that can be improved. Still is a heck of a lot better from socialism where there is a tendency to mediocracy and large welfare benefits promote unemployment and are a big brake to development.

[andresG]

Concerned,
Your idea can be classified as social darwinism. You think that poverty and misery is necessary for society to function. This is how society presently functions. The rich need the poor. The first world countries need third world countries to do those labors that they find hard and uncomfortable.

It seems to me that you view your fellow human being as a threat. This is what capitalism makes you think.
It makes you think that you must hurt someone else to survive.

This is what the First World makes us think.
This is what Capitalist Businesses make us think.
This is what we are forced to believe.

Then if it's true that we must hurt someone else to survive and that we must focus on our own survival, would it be acceptable if a hungry peasant demands food with a revolver in hand?

Well this peasant is just commiting the same crime that the First World and Capitalist Businesses commit on a larger scale. The peasant just does this in a smaller way. He is just following their example.




(Edited by andresG at 10:59 pm on Aug. 18, 2002)


(Edited by andresG at 3:48 am on Aug. 20, 2002)

[vox]

concerned wrote: "Justice comes from letting the free market determine how much a particular job is needed in society...."

However, he also, in the same post, talks about businesses going bankrupt. Now, if a business goes bankrupt one may think that the service or product it was providing just didn't have any demand, which pretty much equals no value to society (for concerned has here set up the market as the arbiter of what is fair).

So I'm wondering how he can state that "Justice comes from letting the free market determine how much a particular job is needed in society" when no one expects workers for a bankrupt business (one not needed in society) to work for free.

This confusion between the "market" and "society" is at the heart of many problems the right-wing has.

vox

[man in the red suit]

concerned, why do I get the impresion that you used to be socialist? For some reason or another, I had thought that you were a socialist about a month ago. Have you just recently changed sides or am I imagining things?

[concerned]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 7:10 am on Aug. 18, 2002
concerned, why do I get the impresion that you used to be socialist? For some reason or another, I had thought that you were a socialist about a month ago. Have you just recently changed sides or am I imagining things?


I think you may be confusing me with someone else :).
A month ago I was definitely still a capitalist!
Well, I wasn't always a capitalist. Some years ago I actually didn't care much about politics. I had traveled a couple of times to Sweden, and socialism seemed to be working relatively ok there. It wasn't until I lived for one year in Sweden that I became political. While living in Sweden for a year and looking at socialism more closely I discovered all the flaws of socialism, and how socialism had actually staggered the once prosperous swedish economy. I met a lot of people who were abusing the welfare and not even trying to get jobs. I also met a lot of people woking unofficially so they could take advantage of the welfare as well. In the mean time hardworking people all over Sweden work their asses off just to pay the unbelievably high taxes. Sweden is also swamped with debt, the highest debt as a percentage of GDP of the developed world.

I probably saw more injustices in Sweden than I've seen anywhere in the capitalist World. It is not fair to take away the profits of hardworking honest swedes to redistribute them among those who haven't worked it. That my friend, is not justice.

[concerned]

Quote: from vox on 4:45 am on Aug. 18, 2002
concerned wrote: "Justice comes from letting the free market determine how much a particular job is needed in society...."

However, he also, in the same post, talks about businesses going bankrupt. Now, if a business goes bankrupt one may think that the service or product it was providing just didn't have any demand, which pretty much equals no value to society (for concerned has here set up the market as the arbiter of what is fair).

So I'm wondering how he can state that "Justice comes from letting the free market determine how much a particular job is needed in society" when no one expects workers for a bankrupt business (one not needed in society) to work for free.

This confusion between the "market" and "society" is at the heart of many problems the right-wing has.

vox


If the product or service a company produces has no demand, it means people have no use for it and therefore it has no value. In this case is better for the company to either close down or do some marketing research to produce something the consumers want and need.

It is not useful for a society to have companies producing stuff that nobody wants. If a company cannot find something that is profitable and that people are willing to pay a price for, then the company is better dead and the workers to find a more useful job somewhere else in something that is needed.

[concerned]

Quote: from andresG on 2:04 am on Aug. 18, 2002
Concerned,
Your idea can be classified as social darwinism. You think that poverty and misery is necessary for society to function. This is how society presently functions. The rich need the poor. The first world countries need third world countries to do those labors that they find hard and uncomfortable.

It seems to me that you view your fellow human being as a threat. This is what capitalism makes you think.
It makes you think that you must hurt someone else to survive.

This is what the First World makes us think.
This is what Capitalist Businesses make us think.
This is what we are forced to believe.

Then if it's true that we must hurt someone else to survive and that we must focus on our own survival, would it be acceptable if a hungry peasant demands food with a revolver in hand?

Well this peasant is just commiting the same crime that the First World and Capitalist Businesses commit on a larger scale. The peasant just does this in a smaller way. He is just folowing their example.




(Edited by andresG at 10:59 pm on Aug. 18, 2002)



I don't believe I ever said that I think poverty and misery are necessary for a society to function. What I said is that there has to be substancial differences in incomes, to account for the differences in complexities of the different jobs.

I am also not saying that you have to hurt anyone else to survive. There are tons of honest businesses that have good profits and pay their employees decently.

[concerned]

By the way guys, I have a trip and will be gone for a week, so don't think I am ignoring you. If you have any replies I will answer them in a week when I come back.

[American Kid]

Wut up.

Guy in Red Suit, first off, how've you been my Norwegian friend? Been a while.

I agree with you on the bonuses. This is some kind of psychosis. Serioulsy. They're just unregulated. This will change hopefully. I think it will. The crisis in corporate America has made the cover of Time and Newsweek. And come on people, nothing in this country changes until it's made the cover of Time or Newsweek.

AndresG, you are intellectualism personified, and you need to turn your brain off before someone does it for you. Your Hegelistic, dialectic whatever your talking about is over-thinking at it's most abominable. What the fuck are you talking about, we need people to be unsuccesful in order to be succesful ourselves? That's just histrionic pessism. It's fashionable pessimism. And my gag reflex goes into overdrive when I hear it.

See you on the battlefield, Karl.

-AK

[komsomol]

I advocate justice and a classless society.

Lets see what is the first injustice of capitalist society?

Inheritence. It is an injustice that some people can inherit millions of dollars/pounds/euros etc and property. THat is one of the injustices that Communism would get rid of.

Now, to rid us of a class based system, we must give reasons for this. One of which is very similar to that of inheritence, is is the injustice that is very clear if you compare the early life and education oportunities of that of a child of a working class family to that of an upper class unbringing. This is why we advocate the nationalisation of property.

Now, this would create a classless society, but I do advocate reward. I agree that those wh have harder jobs and work with more enthusiasm should be paid more than lazy workers, of course to a certain degree.

There would be a short range of income variation, but not enough to create distinct classes.

(Edited by MOLOCH at 11:45 am on Aug. 19, 2002)

[andresG]

"AndresG, you are intellectualism personified, and you need to turn your brain off before someone does it for you. Your Hegelistic, dialectic whatever your talking about is over-thinking at it's most abominable. What the fuck are you talking about, we need people to be unsuccesful in order to be succesful ourselves? That's just histrionic pessism. It's fashionable pessimism. And my gag reflex goes into overdrive when I hear it."
-American Kid

You yourself admit that what is happening and has happenend in the world is a Social Darwinists dream.

"To me, it's just social darwinism. We came in, we were bigger, stronger, there was more of us and we killed them (most of them) and took their land. We ate them. That's just how it happened."
-American Kid

You wrote this in another post.
You prove my point.
This happenend before and people just accepted it as if it were normal.
It is happening again today, and it seems to me that people are going to accept it as if it were normal once again.

[American Kid]

My comment on the Indians was more in reference to, what I feel at least, the uselessness of dredging up the past. It was a point of resolution. I also wasnt to add that in that same post I add that I'm terribely ashamed of the whole ordeal. But I just don't see anything constructive coming out of this whole crisis. Should we sweep it under the rug and forget about it? No.

Then what should we do about it? Honestly, I don't know. It's just the damage is done and it's sad and I think it's time to move on.

To reiterate what I said about classless society (which I think is a wholly, absolute impossiblity), just because Social Darwinism is happening NOW doesn't mean we look away. I think it's futile in the case of something which happened 200 years ago, but TODAY we can do something about it.

I think my main gripe was with your "philosopshy", Andre. I just don't think you're right, that someone has to die financially, in order for someone else to thrive. That means there must be a definable, happy medium in there somewhere, and WHO is going to be the one to judge where that is?

-AK

[Xvall]

Not all of us do the same amount of work or contribute in the same way to society, so not all of use deserve the same wage.

I would LOVE to see you manage yourself all alone, without other people doing things for you.

[Lardlad95]

You AKid brought up an intresting quote.

>>>I think my main gripe was with your "philosopshy", Andre. I just don't think you're right, that someone has to die financially, in order for someone else to thrive. That means there must be a definable, happy medium in there somewhere, and WHO is going to be the one to judge where that is?<<<


Sounds mysteriously like what capitalism does, allows one person to thrive at another's disadvantage.

And that comprimise you spoke of is socialism, just deal my man.

[andresG]

"I think my main gripe was with your "philosopshy", Andre. I just don't think you're right, that someone has to die financially, in order for someone else to thrive. That means there must be a definable, happy medium in there somewhere, and WHO is going to be the one to judge where that is?"
-American Kid

Lardlad95 explained it very nicely.
I was just describing capitalism in the simplest way I could.

[Anonymous]

Capitalism = First come the Profit, then lets worry about people!