Tenth Point

[Stormin Norman]

10.)Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, ect...

What do you suppose Marx meant by abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. It sounds to me as if he really intended on abolition of the education system. Apparently he wanted to replace education with a slave system where all children were forced to work in an industrial setting. Was cheap labor his goal here? This measure is extremely troubling to me. How do you communist defend against this charge? How can you justify this kind of perverse idea? Just curious.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 7:19 am on Aug. 12, 2002)

[komsomol]

What it seems apparent to me that he meant was, to give not just a normal education, but an education in which the pupils attained practical skills through the teaching in industry. Personally, I think it is a very good idea. Not for the actual skills unique to the industry/job they would have experience with but the skill of workink with others, co-operation which is the most fundamental and necessary skill required for all jobs.

[Michael De Panama]

You're taking it out of context, twit. I know for a fact Marx was opposed to all forms of child labor.

YOUR system is the one that thrives on child labor.

The "in it's present form" was probably either to make clear that it has a present form, or perhaps the words sounded better in German.

[Stormin Norman]

Out of context? The words are right there for all to see. Simply because you refuse to acknowledge the truth about your philosophy doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The words do not say "vocational training to help improve the lives of the poor", as you wish it does. What is meant is that children will be bred into their respective societal roles determined by the state. How this kind of evil can be ignored and defended is beyond me. Perhaps this is why I hate communists with a passion. I respect people who speak the truth, and you fail to do that.

[vox]

"Free education for all children in public schools." Marx and Engels.

"It sounds to me as if he really intended on abolition of the education system." SN


Any questions, folks?

vox

[IzmSchism]

In Canada, we have a similiar educational setup. We have your run of the mill, basic high school, with all of the options, then we have what you might call another stream of education, or what I like to call the blue collar stream, which emphasizes on trade specific education, such as auto mechanics, plumbing. I think this is a invaluable resource to the people whom wish to travel this path, as well we are indebted to them in the overall fabric of our society. And the fact that you have a choice in which school is most important. I am not too sure as to what peripheral education in other subjects these students get?

(Edited by IzmSchism at 7:42 pm on Aug. 11, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

"Combination of education with industrial production, ect"-Marx

-any questions?
-What do you suppose the etc. meant? I have always wondered that.

[vox]

Anyone interested in this may want to read Chapter 10 of Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm) for a more detailed look at Marx's views.

vox

(Edited by vox at 3:00 pm on Aug. 11, 2002)

[Anonymous]

SM bad luck!! looks like Socialism wins over capitalism once again!

[Moskitto]

To put this into context. Marx lived in the 19th century. "Childrens Factory Labour in it's present form" in the 19th century was not a good thing. Thankfully, childrens factory labour is illegal over here, but not everywhere.

It's much closer to a marxist system now, rather than children going down the mines instead of school, You've got children doing work experience and when they're older they do "modern apprenticeships." Which combine education and production in the truest way possible.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

where is malte for this does he even backs up Communism, i doubt it hes a stupid fuck..

[Michael De Panama]

What?

[STALINSOLDIERS]

nothing

[Stormin Norman]

I think China is the best example of the vision Marx had for the mixture of education with production. China's use of slave labor to manufacture goods is the epitamy of the this ideal. Children and adults alike are sent to work in whatever conditions the government deems. Everyone future is determined by the state. This is always the way of communism.

Socialism wins again. Ha, anarchist!

[STALINSOLDIERS]

thats not Communism stupid.

[Moskitto]

Except by your own admition Marx wanted to "abolish childrens factory labout in it's present form" which was 19th century childrens factory labout, which is what they have in China. Maybe you should have read my post.

[Stormin Norman]

I did read your post Micheal. The fact is you are engaged in another attempt to redefine reality with conditions that you think should persist. This in no way detracts from the characters that form the words Marx used in his communist manifesto. Considering the results of such a theory, every aspect of his manifesto should be treated as suspect. Did he or did he not know that communism would result in human devastation? I think he knew full well what the implications of such a horrid ideal would achieve; just like I think you, Micheal de Panama, know what will become of the human condition if you win your fight. How can you ignore the facts and evidence of such a wide reaching catastrophe? You are worse than Marx himself, because this method has been tried and tested.

-See my signature if you need further clarification.

[vox]

SN,

Did you read the link I left to the tenth chapter of Capital, or did you avoid it because you knew Marx wouldn't agree with you?

vox

[Stormin Norman]

Did you read my reply to your rebuttal of my Global Warming thread? Are you ignoring it because you know that you would not agree with my criticism?

[vox]

"Did you read my reply to your rebuttal of my Global Warming thread? Are you ignoring it because you know that you would not agree with my criticism?"

Wow. Talk about a non-response!

Your reply in the thread you cite was worthless bullshit. Anyone who reads what I wrote can see, clearly, that you misrepresented what I had to say and, at other times, completely avoided the issue, much as you are doing in this thread.

If need be, I can go back and show where you misrepresented my statements, but I think most people here know you to a be a lying right-winger, SN.

vox

[komsomol]

You say slave Labour is the education they recieve in experience of production? That is taking an extremley pessimistic view. What Marx wanted was just more emphasis on practical education. I think you try hard to see the worst in everything Marx wrote.

[Stormin Norman]

Moloch,

Why don't you compare and contrast Marx's writings to Jefferson's, or better yet, read the Federalist Papers. Maybe then you will see why. Although one should see Marx's writings for what they are without having to compare them to a beautiful masterpiece, but it might help you understand where I am coming from.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 2:34 am on Aug. 14, 2002)

[Linksradikaler]

Stormin' Moron's post about "communist" China just underscores his idiocy. That "child labor" is producing goods for whom? The Chinese state, yes. But also for NIKE and ADIDAS and other AMERICAN, CAPITALIST concerns. So China, the so-called communist nation, is selling children's labor to western capitalists. If American capitalism is so principled, why do the Phil Knights of the world even stoop to accept bids from the Chinese, when they know the abuses?

[Stormin Norman]

I have always acknowledged the immorality of US companies profiting by way of slave labour. You're not trying to tell me that the Chinese system of labour isn't a slave state are you? Fact is, it is a communist regime who is enslaving the people, not the US. Yes, we are guilty of buying goods from China, but last time I checked slavery was abolished in my country.

[Linksradikaler]

Stormin',

The very fact that U.S. law is set up so that CEOs and other chief corporate officers are required to do everything legal to maximize shareholder profits shows the inherent corruptness of the capitalist system. They basically outlawed ethics.

Now, is China a slave state? Absolutely. But the fact that China allows for private investment in its economy (and private returns by shareholders) just shows that China is not a "communist" country. It isn't even really socialist. At least, not as socialist as Russia was and Cuba is.

My point is that just because a country--or a party--calls itself communist does not necessarily make it so.

[RedCeltic]

The labour of women and children was, therefore, the first thing sought for by capitalists who used machinery. That mighty substitute for labour and labourers was forthwith changed into a means for increasing the number of wage-labourers by enrolling, under the direct sway of capital, every member of the workman's family, without distinction of age or sex. –( Capital Vol. 1 Ch 4)

Whenever the law limits the labour of children to 6 hours in industries not before interfered with, the complaints of the manufacturers are always renewed. They allege that numbers of the parents withdraw their children from the industry brought under the Act, in order to sell them where "freedom of labour" still rules, i.e., where children under 13 years are compelled to work like grown-up people, and therefore can be got rid of at a higher price.. –( Capital Vol. 1 Ch 4)

A similar dissolution of the family is brought about by the employment of the children. When they get on far enough to earn more than they cost their parents from week to week, they begin to pay the parents a fixed sum for board and lodging, and keep the rest for themselves. This often happens from the fourteenth or fifteenth year. In a word, the children emancipate themselves, and regard the paternal dwelling as a lodging-house, which they often exchange for another, as suits them.—( Condition of the Working Class in England, by Engels, 1845)

The object of that education, to the average, middle-class man, is the better fitting of the children for the condition of life into which it has pleased Providence to call them—i.e., the better fitting them to act as wage-slaves of the Capitalist and as pieces of machinery with enough intelligence to do the work as rapidly as possible, and not enough to rebel at the iniquity of the thing.—( Eleanor Marx Aveling, The Factory Hell)

I asked one member of the House why he voted to murder the children, and he replied that he did not think they could earn enough to support themselves if they only worked eight hours. These are the kind of tools the intelligent workingmen put in office.—( Mother Jones, Civilization in Southern Mills)

I can see no way out save in a complete overthrow of the capitalistic system, and to me the father who casts a vote for the continuance of that system is as much of a murderer as if he took a pistol and shot his own children. —( Mother Jones, Civilization in Southern Mills)

Childhood is the most precious charge of the family and the community, but our capitalist civilization sacrifices it ruthlessly to gratify its brutal lust for pelf and power, and the march of its conquest is stained with the blood of infants and paved with the puny bones of children. What shall the harvest be?

The millions of children crushed and slain in the conquest of capitalism have not died in vain. From their little martyr graves all over this fair land their avenging images are springing up, as it were, against the system that murdered them and pronouncing upon it, in the name of God and humanity, the condemnation of death. –(Eugene Debs, Childhood)


(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:37 pm on Aug. 13, 2002)

[new democracy]

well i am not a marxist but i dont think that marx want child labor. its sound wierd but idont think that he want child labor. first of all some of marx writing are kind of wierd and people interpet him in different ways. and seconed if people will bring other parts of the menifesto then maybe they proof that marx dosent want child labor. your just put arguments with no point. communist want to help the world. communism turned to be the same as capitalism, but the people that belive in communism want to help the world. marx want to save humanity. about china, china abandand communism in practice after the death of mao. why you claim that marx want child labor, most of the sweat-shops are in the capitalist world(include china). communism is dieng!!!! and the true sweatshops are in CAPITALIST WORLD!!!

[new democracy]

communism is dieng!!! china is practicly capitalism, cuba can be invade any seconed since america trieng to qonqeur the world, viatnam is reterning to capitalism to, the same with laos(until recently i didnt know that laos is communist), and you know what is one of the main concerns of japan? that north korea will fal apart and japan will have to dill with allot of refugees!!!! and then you will see that there will stil be sweatshops!!!! and where are the communist countries? dont take me wrong i am oppose capitalism as much as i oppose communism.

[Moskitto]

Vietnam seems to be doing the same thing as the UK with government industries. They're turning them into public-private partnerships (even though they don't work.) But there's some independant businesses in Vietnam as well. And there's 1 non Communist party member in parliament.

[new democracy]

1 independet parliament member? what are you saieng by that? that they abandon communism?