"Not One Step Back!" - The Victory Was Soviet

[3A CCCP]

Comrades:

I want to take this opportunity to convey to you all my deepest,
heartfelt congratulations on this most important of holidays -
VICTORY DAY!

Thanks to the leadership and inspiration of comrade Stalin, the
military genius of Marshal Zhukov, the courage and dogged
determination of the soldiers of our glorious Red Army, and the
enormous sacrifices and loyalty of our Soviet people the juggernaut
of the fascist German hoards was halted, thrown back, and destroyed!

In the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic one out of every three
people perished during the occupation by the Nazi butchers.
However, the Byelorussian people did not die like lambs led to the
slaughterhouse. Almost one million Byelorussian partisans continued
to fight the German invader right up until they joined with the
advancing liberators of the Red Army in 1944.

The unarmed Byelorussian civilian population that remained in the
villages, towns, and cities (i.e. the elderly, women, and children)
supported partisan actions and were executed by hanging in the
thousands for refusing to give up information on our hero partisan
units.

The victory over Nazi Germany was, indeed, a Soviet victory. The
only reason that the United States opened a second front was to
prevent the Red Army from marching across western Europe and raising
our crimson banner with the beloved Hammer & Sickle over Paris.

By the time D-Day was launched in June of 1944 not a single fascist
combatant was left on Soviet soil and our Red Army was rolling
across Eastern Europe toward Berlin. Our "allies" were "a dollar
short and a day late" in opening the second front. The front was
needed much earlier. By June 1944 the Americans could have (and
should have) just stayed home.

While Lend Lease was appreciated and was of some help to the Soviet
war effort, it accounted for less than 5% of total Soviet war time
production. In any case, blankets and jeeps are a poor substitute
for troops with guns fighting on a second front!

For all intents and purposes, Victory Day is ignored in the United
States for the above reasons. The Soviet role is denigrated and
demeaned by anti-Soviet factions on the left, as well as the right,
in this country.

However, the truth is still preserved and passed on from generation
to generation in Byelorussian schools and by word of mouth.

NOONE IS FORGOTTEN!
NOTHING IS FORGOTTEN!

Iosef Vissarionovich, eternal glory to you!

Eternal glory to the heroes of the Red Army, the Byelorussian
partisans, and to all the Soviet peoples who drove out the fascist
German invader from our Motherland - the UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST
REPUBLICS!

НИКТО НЕ ЗАБЫТ!
НИЧЕГО НЕ ЗАБЫТО!

Иосеф Виссарионович, вечная слава тебе!

Вечная слава героям Красной Армии, белорусским партизанам и всему
советскому народу, которые сражались за нашу Родину - СОЮЗ СОВЕТСКИХ
СОЦИАЛИТИЧЕСКИХ РЕСПУБЛИК!

ЗА СССР!
МИХАИЛ

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

lol
have fun

[joe_the_red]

It is true that the Soviet Union won the war. Americans and Brits like to ignore that. Brits were fighting quite a while, it's true, but they refused to help the Soviet Union, and the U.S. were worse. The majority of the Nazi forces were fighting the Soviet Union to the east, and the U.S. on the western front had to deal with a lot less than the Soviet Union. The most important single battle of the war was NOT D-Day, but Stalingrad. That's where the Nazis broke. That's where the Soviets changed momentum, and then began rolling west unstoppably. I think that it's funny that the U.S. speaks such rubbish, and insults the former Soviet states. If it wasn't for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have had a large number of fascist troops to the west, and the D-Day invasion would have been destroyed. The U.S. showed up late and took all of the glory. The truth of the matter is that Hitler knew he was going to lose, he was throwing his best against the Soviet Union, and lesser troops in the west, because he WANTED to surrender to American and British troops, not to the Soviet Union, because the Soviet Union would not forgive what he'd done, and the two capitalist empires would have likely just exiled him. If he hadn't shot himself, you can bet that the Soviet Union would have. It is unfair that the U.S. and the British Empire recognise their efforts and each others' and not the Soviet Union's. The Soviet Union suffered the most losses because of the Nazis, and fought the hardest battles, and won, defeating all of the most elite of Hitler's army, and before the U.S. and Britain could fight their way through the other, lesser soldiers. -Joe

[Sam_b]

because the Soviet Union would not forgive what he'd done

Not after the USSR's non-aggression pact with Hitler in the early days of the war? Or the fact that they allowed German troups to train in Russia in the days of the treaty of Versailles?

[ArabRASH]

Not after the USSR's non-aggression pact with Hitler in the early days of the war? Or the fact that they allowed German troups to train in Russia in the days of the treaty of Versailles?

You're thinking of the Treaty of Rapallo. and not that i am in the interest of defending Stalin, but Stalin only made the non-aggression pact with Hitler after Britain's continous rejection of his calls for collective security and an anti-nazi front with the USSR and Britain and France. Afterwards, he got sick and tired of them, and feared invasion from germany, so thought the non-aggression pact was a reasonable alternative.

[rouchambeau]

lolwut

[joe_the_red]

The Non-Aggression Pact was created to help bide time until the Soviet Union was ready to fight the fascists. They were planning on breaking it before Hitler did, but he was just a little quicker, unfortunately. Don't fully trust capitalist British false-education that does nothing but downplay the Soviet Union. -Joe

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Actually, I think you should be referring to AMERICAN false-education. The British historians I've seen on TV acknowledge that the Soviets practically won the European front of WWII by themselves, and have resigned themselves to accepting Churchill's "Big Two and a Half" remark (since the Americans practically won the Pacific front of WWII by themselves).



For all his theoretical reductionism and gross revisionism, when talking about the Great Patriotic War I WILL refer to Marshal Sovetskogo Soyuza Stalin as, in the words of Marshal Sovetskogo Soyuza Zhukov, a "brilliant general" (for at times restraining his generals' enthusiasm, among other strategic and tactical roles), in defiance of bourgeois lies and both Trotskyist and Trotskyite ("Trotsky's Witnesses") demonizations.

[joe_the_red]

Well... I do not doubt that the U.S. and British schools teach the same lies about various aspects of history. I am not saying that the sun shined out of Stalin's ass or anything, just that he was a better individual than MOST westerners would claim. -Joe

[Dust Bunnies]

The USSR saved the world from Facism.

[sonofuberman]

Its about time the balance of power got restored. Confidence in a strong Russia will reign in the imperial agression of the American government. Shows like this must go on for that to come about.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Yes I agree.

We need a balance of power.

Sort of like prior to World War One.

[Red October]

Yes I agree.

We need a balance of power.

Sort of like prior to World War One.

Oh yeah, and that turned out great for everyone didn't it? :rolleyes:

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Oh yeah, and that turned out great for everyone didn't it? :rolleyes:Sarcasm. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)

Anyone whom wishes for a capitalist state to have a stronger imperialist presence to fight American imperialism has no concept of internationalism, imperialism (its not just American imperialism, you know) or an understanding that it would be workers whom would be pawns in that struggle. Their hands would be tainted with worker's blood.

Chechnya should be a good example to any leftist whom thinks that a capitalist Russia is going to restore a 'balance of power' or anything resembling a level of fair international justice.

It's rather like a worker supporting their particular employer over a competitive employer and shunning the workers of that competing company; communists should argue that this is just a diversion (indeed, patriotism is a divergence to class struggle) and that it is not competing bosses (or countries) that should be fought, but bosses per se.

[joe_the_red]

The balance does need to be restored. Look at the U.S. and British Empires running around in today's world. They are just having their way with everyone. There are few enough strong communist peoples today. Venezuela, Cuba, Belarus... these places stand as the few areas left where communism sticks. Belarus is a great example, especially. Imperialism needs to be countered. I feel that we cannot just sit back and hope for the best though, we should be actively doing something, even if that something is simply talking to people about, getting groups of support together, making our voices heard.... but if we can do more than that, we should. -Joe

[Redmau5]

Imperialism needs to be countered.

Yes, with genuine revolutionary workers' movements, not another capitalist power.

I honestly don't think some people understand the difference between being a communist and having a fetish for the USSR.

[Sam_b]

Belarus is a great example, especially

How? I see no democratic worker's control.

[joe_the_red]

Well, according to my resources from Belarus, it is in much better progress than the U.S. and the British Empire. And, as stated before, shitty western (U.S. and British Empire) education (aka propaganda) on the USSR has caused a lot of belief in outright lies. -Joe

[Sam_b]

it is in much better progress than the U.S. and the British Empire.

So?


And, as stated before, shitty western (U.S. and British Empire) education (aka propaganda) on the USSR has caused a lot of belief in outright lies

So?

These mean absolute hee-haw. Give me some Marxist arguments to say that there is communism in Belarus.

[joe_the_red]

I get my information from sources you can look up, too. Just go to the SovietBelarus yahoo group. It's pretty easy to do. -Joe

[Sam_b]

I get my information from sources you can look up, too. Just go to the SovietBelarus yahoo group. It's pretty easy to do

Why should I register a Yahoo account and sign up to a group when you can give me the information here? I asked the same to 3A CCCP and have still got no reply.

So i'll ask again - how is Belarus communist?

[joe_the_red]

Belarus is a government resisting the western imperial forces. Their systems in place give a lot better support for the working class, and opposition parties still operate and have the right to voice their opposition. They are running on a socialist economic system which gives more benefits to the working class. If you need more information then you should do some research. -Joe

[Sam_b]

I think you need to do the research. Just because a state opposes Western imperialism doesn't make it socialist - by your reckoning Iran is a socialist country. If you've done the research, why not give us some evidence?

And I still don't see any democratic worker's control in the country. You've basically just described a capitalist state that is a bit kinder on workers than others. Unlike 3A CCCP, do you also want to condemn the President's support for Milosevic, or the country's clampdown on the Pride marches, as I have alleged in the other threads and would like some clarification/rebuttals on.

[joe_the_red]

I don't claim to be in agreement with EVERYTHING that is Belarus, but I feel it's closer to communism than the west. Belarus is still working towards the goal, just like the rest of us. I don't condemn the Pride parade, I do feel that homosexuals deserve equal rights too, meaning they shouldn't be considered any different than the rest of us. I don't always agree on things, but I do think tha Belarus is doing well in many ways. -Joe

[Sam_b]

Well thats fair enough, though if you have any figures i'd be interested to see them. However it has to be remembered that socialsit liberation has to be on an international scale and must be seen by class rather than nation.

[joe_the_red]

I agree that our movement is class-based, but I value differing cultures, and am completely opposed to the idea of "globalisation". I think that we need to keep our different languages and cultures, just remember that we are all people, we are all different, unique. I like the idea that I can go into an English pub in England, and an Italian cafe in Italy (well the area formerly known as England and Italy, that is). -Joe

[Red October]

Belarus is not socialist, as far as I know capitalist property relations still exist. Resisting imperialism doesn't make one socialist or even an ally of the left. The idea that we should have more imperialist powers competing in order to "keep imperialism" in check is totally ludicrous. America may be the dominant imperialist power right now, but it doesn't make imperialism by other nations ok.

Also, having a big 'ol parade with lots of tanks and missiles doesn't bring you any closer to socialism or communism.

[3A CCCP]

I don't claim to be in agreement with EVERYTHING that is Belarus, but I feel it's closer to communism than the west. Belarus is still working towards the goal, just like the rest of us. I don't condemn the Pride parade, I do feel that homosexuals deserve equal rights too, meaning they shouldn't be considered any different than the rest of us. I don't always agree on things, but I do think tha Belarus is doing well in many ways. -Joe

Comrade:

No matter what you say or no matter what evidence you show to people like this Sam b and Red October they will continue to goad you and claim that you are wrong. It's a Trot tactic. They cherry pick information, present a list of accusations, and put you on the defensive.

The interesting part is that they believe and trust the Western media and use its bourgeois points of view in their arguments. Instead of challenging the Western lies and doing some research, they accept them and attack Belarus.

They are not out to learn anything, but to further their own political agendas. This is why I refused to get further involved after answering the "Hitler" question on another thread. The answer was in black and white with references, but wasn't good enough for Sam b! What's the point? These are provocateurs. Only a provocateur would make the absurd allegation that Belarus is "imperialist" as Red October did.

Sam b and Red October are making the accusations. Let them prove them! And, not with phoney "laundry lists" and Western propaganda.

By the way, this thread is about the Great Patriotic War. Why did Sam b and Red October bring up and attack present day Belarus on this thread? Another provocateur tactic!

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Colonello Buendia]

The USSR did alot in the second world war and the red army was instrumental in the defeat of Germany. however they would not have been able to win all on their own. The British provided them with intelligence regarding german movements (the brits had cracked the enigma code machine and therefore pretty much new the nazis every move) and the Americans brought much needed men and munitions into play by opening the second front. this was crucial because had that not happened all the german forces would have been deployed against the red army. as for the turning point of the war, it is generally said to be the battle of El Alamein in which the Germans suffered a serious defeat and they lost North Africa and virtually all Italian backing seen as the Italian army was now savagely mauled and not capable of defending their own country due to losses. It is simply untrue that the russians could've one the war by themselves because without vital intelligence and at the rate of their losses they wouldn't have gotten past the seigfreid line. However the Yanks and the Brits wouldn't have won without the Russians, each had a part to play.

[Sam_b]

They cherry pick information, present a list of accusations, and put you on the defensive.


I'll believe you when you actually respond to my questions.


They are not out to learn anything, but to further their own political agendas

How exactly do I further an agenda by posting on an internet forum? Especially since I have told you countless times I know little of Belarus and was requiring clarifications.


This is why I refused to get further involved after answering the "Hitler" question on another thread. The answer was in black and white with references, but wasn't good enough for Sam b! What's the point?

It was. I said so. What isn't good enough, however, is refusing to answer the other questions, which I feel are legitimate, and instead take a sectarian Stalinist line.


Why did Sam b and Red October bring up and attack present day Belarus on this thread?

Because someone brought it up. And you're not engaging with my questions in the other thread and I would like to bring this to your attention.

[Colonello Buendia]

it's probs better to leave them to it, they'll never accept that Belarus is a psuedo fascist autocratic dictatorship. and they even resort to ad hominem remarks about your political ideology. seriously, if they can get away from their delusional ramblings long enough to present a decent argument then listen to them if not then leave them be

[joe_the_red]

In truth North Africa was quite a small theatre of war, the biggest theatre was the Eastern Front. The Soviet Union had almost no aid whatsoever, and Germany was concentrating on them, and as I said before, most of the German forces in the west were minimal, they were throwing *almost* everything they had at the Soviet Union, and the Soviets won at Stalingrad, and then unstoppably headed toward Berlin. Italian aid was pretty much a joke, they were just numbers, they couldn't anyone that had modern equipment. They beat Ethiopia, and the Ethiopians were riding on horses and using spears. I'm not saying that North Africa was trivial, just that the Soviet Union had the most difficult time and still came out on top. It's true that the U.S. more or less won the Pacific Theatre, but the Soviet Union had Nazi Germany. The U.S. and British Empire beat Italy. -Joe

[Colonello Buendia]

I agree that Stalingrad was decisive, but it was El Alamein that started a string of German defeats. the three decisive battles of the war are said to be the aforementioned battles and Midway as they all effectively turned the tide and forced the axis armies/navy back

[joe_the_red]

El Alamein was important, yes, but the Nazis still had plenty of victories after El Alamein, but after Stalingrad made absolutely no progress. -Joe

[3A CCCP]

BLACKFLAGREVOLUTIONARY WROTE:
[quote=blackflagrevolutionary;1144010] The British provided them with intelligence regarding german movements (the brits had cracked the enigma code machine and therefore pretty much new the nazis every move) and the Americans brought much needed men and munitions into play by opening the second front. this was crucial because had that not happened all the german forces would have been deployed against the red army...

MY REPLY:
I can't comment on the intelligence provided by the Brits since I'm not knowledgeable in this area. I'm sure it was helpful.

However, the second front was opened in June, 1944 after the Red Army had driven the Nazis from Soviet soil and were moving across Eastern Europe. To my knowledge, no amount of troops of any consequence were pulled from the East to fight the Americans on the second front. Three quarters of the Germany military machine stayed in the East in a futile attempt to hold back the Red Army.

In fact, the opposite was more likely. When the Germans realized that their time was running out, the hope in the mind of any sane German was that the Americans would get to Berlin first. They knew what crimes they had committed in the Soviet Union and were well aware that the Red Army soldiers were coming for vengeance.

In my opinion, the decisive battle of the war was the massive tank battle at Kursk. The battle of Stalingrad turned the momentum to the Soviet side, but the bloodbath at Kursk finally crushed the German tank ability and was a psychological blow that was not overcome.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[3A CCCP]

I would highly recommend to anyone interested in learning about the war on the Eastern Front to get a copy of the documentary series "THE UNKNOWN WAR."

This 900 minute documentary series is broken down into 20 forty-five minute episodes and was produced by the Soviet Union in answer to the ridiculous U.S. "World at War" documentary series that minimized the Soviet Union's participation to a virtual footnote.

Bert Lancaster is the narrator and it has Soviet war correspondent archival footage that I doubt many of you have seen before. It was shown once on American television in 1978 and again sometime in the early 1980s on PBS. Since then they have refused to put it on the air anywhere in the U.S. as far as I know.

I have the 7 disc set and I can try to find out if it is still available somewhere. Believe me, anyone who sees this documentary will have no doubt of what really occured on the Eastern Front. The U.S. government is not keen on Americans seeing what really happened, but I'm sure this documentary is available someplace.

By the way, the series does NOT criticize or belittle the allies. Just the opposite, they have a couple of 45 minute segments on allied support. They show the graves in Murmansk of the U.S. and British seaman who ran the "Corridor of Death" to get supplies to the Soviet Union and tell their story. I believe there is some stuff on the British intelligence that BlackFlagRevolutionary talked about, but it's been awhile since I watched the series. This film is alot fairer and more balanced than the typical American "John Wayne" WW II documentary crap.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Sam_b]

So, is there any chance of my questions being answered yet on the nature of Belarus, 3A CCCP?

[Red October]

So, is there any chance of my questions being answered yet on the nature of Belarus, 3A CCCP?

Nope

[Comrade_Scott]

comrades the U.S played a small role in the outcome of the war in europe, the major turning point on the westernfront it has to be said was the Battle of Britain while the whole tide of the war changed thanks to stalingrad and general winter. these facts can not be ignored the US were late in there arival and a big share of the glory belongs to the brave Soviets who fought, then some goes to the brits who were always a thorn in the nazis side.

[3A CCCP]

So, is there any chance of my questions being answered yet on the nature of Belarus, 3A CCCP?

Sure. Go and ask them on the "Belarus and Alexander Lukashenko" thread in the "Politics" section. I dedicated that thread to Belarus so you and your buddy Red October wouldn't interrupt other threads. Also, we can keep everything neatly compacted in one place so everyone on the list can find them quickly and conveniently.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Pogue]

Comrade 3A CCCP, I have a few quesitons on the USSR I need answering, would you be so kind as to do this for me? I'll ask them when you reply. Cheers.

[joe_the_red]

As someone interested in history, I would really like to know how to get a hold of that documentary you spoke of, "The Unknown War". Is there any place to get them? Or is there a way that you could copy the documentary? Just let me know. -Joe

[3A CCCP]

As someone interested in history, I would really like to know how to get a hold of that documentary you spoke of, "The Unknown War". Is there any place to get them? Or is there a way that you could copy the documentary? Just let me know. -Joe

I have actually got two sets. I sent one to a long time Soviet Belarus yahoo group member in Japan about a year ago.

I am from the manual typewriter/carbon copy era and admit to being a moron when it comes to computers. The extra sets were copied for me by a guy at work and I could ask him to make me a few more sets. My son is 18 and computer savvy. I just asked him if we could copy the dvds and he said we don't have the software program to do it.

If I can get some sets copied I would be happy to send you one for the price of the postage. Later, if we can copy a whole bunch of sets I would do the same for anyone is really interested in learning and not just starting a flame war.

I'll search out Ryan at work tomorrow and see if I can get him to make up two or three sets.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[3A CCCP]

Comrade 3A CCCP, I have a few quesitons on the USSR I need answering, would you be so kind as to do this for me? I'll ask them when you reply. Cheers.

Comrade:

Ask away! I will answer them to the best of my ability based on my experiences there and general knowledge of our Motherland.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[TC]

have resigned themselves to accepting Churchill's "Big Two and a Half" remark (since the Americans practically won the Pacific front of WWII by themselves).


Thats not even true though. The Red Army liberated China and Korea from the Japanese Empire before the Americans got within distance of the Japanese mainland, the entire bulk of the Japanese army was defeated not by the Americans but by the Soviet Union. If anything the Japanese surrendered to the Americans not because of the atomic bombs but because they (accurately) knew that an American occupation government would allow their aristocracy and royalty to continue in its socio-economic status whereas a Soviet/Chinese invasion would have put power in the hands of the Japanese people and not their overlords.

[PRC-UTE]

Thats not even true though. The Red Army liberated China and Korea from the Japanese Empire before the Americans got within distance of the Japanese mainland, the entire bulk of the Japanese army was defeated not by the Americans but by the Soviet Union. If anything the Japanese surrendered to the Americans not because of the atomic bombs but because they (accurately) knew that an American occupation government would allow their aristocracy and royalty to continue in its socio-economic status whereas a Soviet/Chinese invasion would have put power in the hands of the Japanese people and not their overlords.

That's true. There was also a little known war just before WWII in which Soviet forces under Zukhov inflicted a huge defeat on the Japanese, which is the reason they chose to take on the USA rather than the SU.

[Redmau5]

whereas a Soviet/Chinese invasion would have put power in the hands of the Japanese people and not their overlords.

Like the Soviets did in East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.? :rolleyes:

[Wanted Man]

Like the Soviets did in East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.? :rolleyes:
That's debatable... but they certainly didn't simply continuate the fascist machinery of Hungary and Romania, the collaborators' force of Slovakia, etc., which would have 'worked' on a logistic and macchiavellian level. Certainly quite different from what happened in Japan and South Korea, where it was basically: 'meet the old bosses'.

[Redmau5]

That's debatable... but they certainly didn't simply continuate the fascist machinery of Hungary and Romania, the collaborators' force of Slovakia, etc., which would have 'worked' on a logistic and macchiavellian level. Certainly quite different from what happened in Japan and South Korea, where it was basically: 'meet the old bosses'.

I understand that. But there is nothing (as far as I know), other than speculation, to suggest that the Soviets would have handed over Japan to the Japanese workers. It's much more likely that Japan would have followed the example of the Eastern bloc countries.

But this shouldn't turn into a historical guessing game of what potentially could have happened in Japan had it been taken by the Soviets and Chinese, otherwise we could be here for a long time.

[Sentinel]

as for the turning point of the war, it is generally said to be the battle of El Alamein in which the Germans suffered a serious defeat and they lost North Africa and virtually all Italian backing seen as the Italian army was now savagely mauled and not capable of defending their own country due to losses.


Without saying that the Battle of El Alamein wasn't important, as it was, it should be noted here that the Italian army was pretty useless for the Axis war effort throughout the war -- which was the reason Rommel and his Africa Korps were sent to Africa to begin with. They had to step in to prevent an utter Italian defeat.

Mussolini had a big mouth, but the Germans basically had to do all the work even on fronts that were supposed to be Italian -- not only in Africa but also on the Balkans. The Italians even had problems with conquering Ethiopia, a poverty plagued third world country, which should say something.

[Os Cangaceiros]

whereas a Soviet/Chinese invasion would have put power in the hands of the Japanese people and not their overlords.

I have a bridge I want to sell you in Manhattan.

[Red October]

Without saying that the Battle of El Alamein wasn't important, as it was, it should be noted here that the Italian army was pretty useless for the Axis war effort throughout the war -- which was the reason Rommel and his Africa Korps were sent to Africa to begin with. They had to step in to prevent an utter Italian defeat.

Mussolini had a big mouth, but the Germans basically had to do all the work even on fronts that were supposed to be Italian -- not only in Africa but also on the Balkans. The Italians even had problems with conquering Ethiopia, a poverty plagued third world country, which should say something.

Not to mention they had the shittiest equipment of the war and may as well have been using BB guns and tin cans.

[joe_the_red]

To 3A CCCP:

I would be willing to pay for shipping. Do you have a Paypal account? Send me a private message with how you want to deal with that. I'll give you my email address and mailing address in private message, too, when we work something out. Thanks.

Continuing Post:

Yes, the Italians were too busy partying, eating cheese, and drinking wine and living carefree lives to really care much about things of a warlike nature. Kidding.... but seriously... they sucked it up pretty bad. -Joe