Suicide

[Stormin Norman]

Recently, the topic of suicide has been discussed in the chit chat section. Myself and others contend that suicide is for the weak. Some others clearly think that there is no choice in the matter, and making such a statement is inhumane. Having had experience with this subject I believe it is well within my rights to make the claim that suicide is a cowardly and selfish act. Those with differing opinions claim that it is a pure act of bravery to look down the barrel of a gun and pull the trigger, without knowing for certain what death entails. Countless others have tried to offer their own justifications for this act.

The desire for a cessation of existence is a natural one for someone who has been dealt bad hand in life. Sometimes things seem so utterly useless and frustrating that resolution to these problems appear to be nonexistant. The despair felt by those that contemplate the idea is a human emotion driven by poor choices, or situations beyond that persons control. The seeds of self consumption as well as the appetite for self destruction can manifest themselves in many ways. Overall, the driving force is hatred for one's self. This self hatred can dominate the psyche and lead to careless desicion making, like driving maniacally or pumping drugs into your veins. When the life of the individual becomes unimportant to the owner, everything else losses its value. This includes interests previously enjoyed, one's own property, the propery of others, the lives of others, and the workings of the world. Such feelings can only lead to catastrophic results.

Illogical hatred for yourself, those around you, and the world as a whole can be directed in many ways. The person can project that hatred onto other people, destroying property and lives. That hatred can be channel into constructive activities that will better the persons outlook on life and enhance the lives of others. Finally, that hatred can be directed inward until everything falls apart and there exists no other alternative to dying.

When faced with a situation that compounds the previous problems and sets the thought process's into a chaotic mesh of incoherent ramblings, the propensity for drastic action is at its high. The best way to silence the self perpetuated delusions appear to be a complete and permanent shut down. Death is an easier alternative to facing one's own madness, and logically thinking of solutions.

The traps and mechanisms for the temptation of suicide become a built in function, a cycle that repeats itself every time a new low is reached. This procession escalates to a boiling point if prior causes are not evaluated. When simply pushing these feelings aside and ignoring the causes, the same types of mistakes can be made easy. If the raging thoughts that led to entertaining the idea are simply suppressed, that person can never understand the process of self annihilation. That is the danger, because every consequtive manifestation of this horror will only lead the being closer to the logical results of their thinking. Finally, they will acted on their emotions and commit the dastardly act that they have brought upon themselves.

One can only ask what made them do it. I know the answer, for it can only be that individual. Forget chemical imbalances and poor situations, since these things do not completely override judgement. The process of suicide is a long drawn out process, where ample opportunity to face the problems exist. The perpetrator of suicide abdicates all reason and self discretion in favor of quick fix, like drugs or violence. They never took the time to understand themselves, or what motivated their thought processes. It was easier for them to avoid the things that caused great pain to their lives. It was easier for them to quickly bury their emotions, only to revisit them next time they were faced with their desperate rage. It was easier to do those things rather than to fully analyze the forces driving them to those feelings. Which is braver, choosing death by suicide, or facing long term problems directly? What is harder, to thoughtlessly pull a trigger in an illogical state, or to find enough courage to continue living through a self-perpetuated hell on earth? Obviously, defeating the inner psycho by looking that monster in the face remains more difficult.

[Anonymous]

Suicide is for the weak? if your lief is a mess (lets imagen you were in a weeding and your whole family and house is destroyed because some american Morons decide to play go catch the bomb!) and all that is left is memorys is suport revenge! what? revenge is not possible? nothing left? then suicide is not a weak option, bether do die in your own hands than to die in the hands of a american soldier!

[Stormin Norman]

What the fuck are you talking about, Anarchist?

[Capitalist Imperial]

As usual, anarchists response is , #1 , idiotic, and #2, irrelevant

[komsomol]

Well, suicide ain't just for the weak, I bet if anybody was tortured to a certain extent they would want to commit suicide.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from MOLOCH on 5:29 pm on Aug. 7, 2002
Well, suicide ain't just for the weak, I bet if anybody was tortured to a certain extent they would want to commit suicide.

I agree, Moloch, there are certain extenuating circumstances which could theoretically make suicide a valid option, such as if you are an American POW and you want to avoid meaningless torture before your captors kill you anyway, or if you want to avoid divulging any clandestine information. WWII Kamikaze pilots also were committing sanctioned suicide not for personal reasons, but for the glory of their empire.

However, for a free individual in personal distress, suicide is an easy alternative, and not always a function of clinical depression.

[canikickit]

it's all bullshit

[Xvall]

Commiting suicide is like shooting yourself in the head to cure a really bad headache.

[James]

None of you can talk because none of you have ever pulled it off. So shut the fuck up ehy?

[Dynatos]

SM are you brave enough to kill yourself right now? Try it you wont have the guts. so dont say suicide is cowardly

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Dynatos on 8:23 pm on Aug. 7, 2002
SM are you brave enough to kill yourself right now? Try it you wont have the guts. so dont say suicide is cowardly

This is possibly the single stupidest post that has ever been submitted in the history of the internet.

[Dynatos]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:54 pm on Aug. 7, 2002

Quote: from Dynatos on 8:23 pm on Aug. 7, 2002
SM are you brave enough to kill yourself right now? Try it you wont have the guts. so dont say suicide is cowardly

This is possibly the single stupidest post that has ever been submitted in the history of the internet.

lol that may be true but prove me wrong. If you don't want to kill yourself that means your afraid to die (thats understandable). if your afraid of death the only way to overcome it is to die. courage: to overcome ones fear
cowardly: not be able to overcome ones fear.

[Giant Sucking Sound]

Trying working in a nursing home awhile, pal. Endless mind-numbing pain, the obliteration of all faculties, the destruction of a family's patrimony. I'd off myself under those circumstances, and do so cheerfully. As much of a loony tune as Kevorkian is presented as being in the media, he had a point.

Also, Given the choice between pompous psychobabble of Stormin and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius...pass the toga.


****


As thou intendest to live when thou art gone out,...so it is in thy power to live here. But if men do not permit thee, then get away out of life, yet so as if thou wert suffering no harm. The house is smoky, and I quit it. Why dost thou think that this is any trouble? But so long as nothing of the kind drives me out, I remain, am free, and no man shall hinder me from doing what I choose; and I choose to do what is according to the nature of the rational and social animal.

****

It is a vulgar, but still a useful help towards contempt of death, to pass in review those who have tenaciously stuck to life. What more then have they gained than those who have died early? Certainly they lie in their tombs somewhere at last, Cadicianus, Fabius, Julianus, Lepidus, or any one else like them, who have carried out many to be buried, and then were carried out themselves. Altogether the interval is small between birth and death; and consider with how much trouble, and in company with what sort of people and in what a feeble body this interval is laboriously passed. Do not then consider life a thing of any value. For look to the immensity of time behind thee, and to the time which is before thee, another boundless space. In this infinity then what is the difference between him who lives three days and him who lives three generations?

***

It is a shame for the soul to be first to give way in this life, when thy body does not give way.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/mar...uaurelius1.html (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/marcuaurelius1.html)

[James]

Why is thi thread here? In soc v's. This is typcal "nationalism". Just trying to score a point.

Lets face it, if you can talk about something like this s frely, you have had no experiances with it.

I expect there are people who have known loved ones, who have taken their own life. How the fuck do you guys think you sound? Simply saying its the easy way out! I can't believe you lot sometimes. You have a stupid opinion on something - that YOU have NEVER experianced. So i'll give you a little advice...


























.....Shut the fuckup.

[guerrillaradio]

I'm with Dynatos. If suicide is so easy, go the fuck ahead and hang yourself you dumb ****. I'm sick of your shit, I don't care how much swearing is in this post, you are a C-U-N-T. Now fuck off before I send you a virus...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Dynatos on 9:25 pm on Aug. 7, 2002


lol that may be true but prove me wrong. If you don't want to kill yourself that means your afraid to die (thats understandable). if your afraid of death the only way to overcome it is to die. courage: to overcome ones fear
cowardly: not be able to overcome ones fear.



Well, I don't feel that I fear death, but I am enjoying my life. I consider myself very lucky to experience existence, and I plan to enjoy the ride as long as I can. When my time does come, though, I don't think that I will be afraid, whether it comes naturally or out of nowhere.

what about u?

[Mazdak]

Well, if suicide is a "weak" option, then what is the "strong" one, going into a fit of madness and shooting at a crowd of innocents?

That is like all the crap i hear about suicide bombers being cowards. That is such bullshit. You have to be really brave to strap a bomb to yourself and blow yourself up for a cause(even a perverted cause). I do not support SB(suicide bombing) but that doesnt make them cowards.

[Nickademus]

ok ok this topic has gotten a little out of hand. i know of many people who have attempted or actually committed suicide (for those of you who don't know, death follows me around every where i go, more than normal). anyway it depends on the person and the circumstances.

I am for doctor assisted suicide if someone is in so much pain they no longer see the joy in living. but then again, when my ex-boyfriend died, i was angry because i saw it as being selfish (largely becaues he has a 4 year old daughter).

for many people, espeically those without a debilitating disease, its not about being weak or being strong, its about being alone, having no support, having no reason to go on and no alternatives. many people simply feel they have no other options, no way of getting themselves out of the situation they are in which they so desperately dislike.

i wouldn't characterize someone who attempts or commits suicide as weak or strong. that only perpetuates the rumours about suicide. i suggest you all go and get some training from suicide crisis groups etc. then you will understand.

personally i think if you commit suicide you have a reason for it. if you think that reason is sound and you've made that choice, that's because you made that choice for whatever reason. i'm not here on this earth to judge other people, i'm here to learn for myself. judging others teaches me nothing. (wow i'm starting to sound preachy)

[PunkRawker677]

The "epidemic" of teenage suicide has nothing to do with them being week or strong. It usually comes from depression, which is an illness - not a choice. One in thirteen adolescents from the ages 12-19 will attept to kill themselves while 1 in 3 will seriously consider it. This has been linked to numerous things but one of the largest matters to consider here is the little amount of time parents spend with there kids now a days. The average parent spends 2.5 minutes with there kid a day (yes, 2 1/2 not 25). This usually leads kids to believe there parents "dont care" "dont love them" or whatever else might go through there mind. This is followed up by many teens with alcohol and drugs, which usually worsens the problem instead of helping it. The depression gets more severe and many of them attempt, and some succeed, in killing themselves. This vicous cycle is one that occurs every day in the United States and is one of the largely ignored issues.

Depression is an illness, as i stated before.
Would you say someone with Cancer was weak because he was dying?

/(All about facts and stats were taken from the book "One in Thirteen" about Teenage Suicide, check it out if you would like to learn more on this, instead of blindly assuming what people go through.)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 10:53 pm on Aug. 7, 2002
Well, if suicide is a "weak" option, then what is the "strong" one, going into a fit of madness and shooting at a crowd of innocents?

That is like all the crap i hear about suicide bombers being cowards. That is such bullshit. You have to be really brave to strap a bomb to yourself and blow yourself up for a cause(even a perverted cause). I do not support SB(suicide bombing) but that doesnt make them cowards.


"Well, if suicide is a "weak" option, then what is the "strong" one, going into a fit of madness and shooting at a crowd of innocents?"

No, that would be weak too, you act like it is the only other option. The strong response would to be to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, face your problems, accept responsibility for your situation, and take action to improve it.

"That is like all the crap i hear about suicide bombers being cowards. That is such bullshit. You have to be really brave to strap a bomb to yourself and blow yourself up for a cause(even a perverted cause)."

Not really, those people feel no pain, and they go into crowds of innocent people and detonate their bombs, and they are conned into thinking that they will go to heaven and have a harem of 70 virgins. They are doing it for selfish reasons.

"I do not support SB(suicide bombing) but that doesnt make them cowards."

Yes it does. If they were so brave, they would attack legitimate military targets, where there would be the possibility for getting shpot back at and killed in a fashion beyong their control.

Intentionally bombing a crowd of innocents is not brave no matter how you slice it.

[mcleodstickle]

I honestly never realised how completely stoopid some ppl were!


Stormin Normin:
Myself and others contend that suicide is for the weak

So yea, that would be CI, and then you jumping to his assitance yea??

PLEASE! shut up or get a couple of brain cells??

Go view my post in the other thread, before you say anything to me about not having enough arguments.

------Lauren-----

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from mcleodstickle on 12:02 am on Aug. 8, 2002
I honestly never realised how completely stoopid some ppl were!


Stormin Normin:
Myself and others contend that suicide is for the weak

So yea, that would be CI, and then you jumping to his assitance yea??

PLEASE! shut up or get a couple of brain cells??

Go view my post in the other thread, before you say anything to me about not having enough arguments.

------Lauren-----

what is that supposed to mean?

[PunkRawker677]

Are you planning to respong to my post?
Or is it to "irrelevant"?

[mcleodstickle]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:18 am on Aug. 8, 2002

what is that supposed to mean?


emm yes.... you sed, suicide is for the weak, and your two lap dogs SN and DC jumped to attention and agreed readily.

(Edited by mcleodstickle at 12:39 am on Aug. 8, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from PunkRawker677 on 12:23 am on Aug. 8, 2002
Are you planning to respong to my post?
Or is it to "irrelevant"?

No, that was a good post by you, but I have stated in a previous post that I agree that sometimes extenuating circumstances dictate that suicide sometimes is legitimate, like when one is terminally ill and suffering, or if a POW is being tortured and is going to be killed anyway, or even kamikaze pilots dying for their country (this does not include suicide bombers, as they attack innocent civilians, not legitimate military targets while being fired back upon.)

Depression alone is not a good reason. Depression is easily treatable nowadays Often ytimes simple excersise will release the endorphins necessary to counter the neurotransmitters that are causing depression.

Also, your 1/13 people? When I went to high school, 1 out of every 13 kids did not attempt suicide. I don't know where that figure came from, but I consider it suspect at best.

[PunkRawker677]

You don't have to believe me. I gave you my source. The book is titled One in Thirteen.. I dont have the author handy, but i will post it tommorow. And in my experience, it has been far less than 1 in 13 as well, but people arent always very "open" with suicide attempts.

Depression is treatable, but for a 14 year old kid whos parents dont talk to, it can be deadly. He can't go see a doctor by himself and there is usually very little parent to child communication in these cases. Many times teenagers dont even know they are suffering from sever depression, they usually blow it off as just a "bad week" or whatever.

[Ymir]

Suicide is anything but cowardly. The most powerful instinct in a human or in any animal is to NOT FUCKING DIE. And especially NOT FUCKING KILL YOURSELF. By destroying yourself you are proving that you can overcome your instincts. Self-inflicted destruction should be looked on as power. Power to overcome what society tells you, what your instincts tell you, and even what rational thought may tell you.
That might not apply to all situations but that is my view of suicide in general.
And as for the suicide bombers, they don't exactly have CIA and FBI military intelligence. They probably wouldn't be able to find a military base let alone fly a plane into it. That is meant to apply to the palestinian bombers, not the attack on the WTC in New York.
When the Jews occupied Palestine did they try to attack 'military' targets? No they went after the people. They treated them like rats and tried to run out the infestation from 'their' land. So why the fuck should some starving homeless arab care about going after military targets...

[man in the red suit]

what does suicide have to do with socialism or capitalism?

[suffianr]

"Jeremy spoke in class today" - Eddie Vedder

How about this, suicide as a political medium of expression?

Sometimes, suicide is more than just being all out of choices, for example, acclaimed Japanese writer Yukio Mishima committed sepukku (Japanese suicide ritual which entails self-disembowelment and beheading with a katana) in 1970 for purely political reasons, to protest against the waning influece of Japanese Imperial influence.

Notice the burning monk on the cover of that RATM album? That's what "Vietnam" did to the Vietnamese, cappies.

I'm not condoning suicide, nor am I empathizing with it, sometimes, you got to look further, that's all.

[American Kid]

Look out, the Kid's gonna jump in on this one!!!!!




!!!!!!!BOOM!!!!!!!!

*dusts himself off*

Well, well, well........Well, well, well......

Suicide, eh? Buzzkill, dude. :) No, listen.

Bad stuff. Speaking of, anyone heard from our (thirteen year-old, by the way) friend IBow4Che? I haven't. I'm sure the kid's fine. I hope. Like I said way before when that situation first presented itself, like her, I'm a writer too, and we love ourselves too much to ever deprive this world of the oppertunity to bask in the ever-lasting, warm, loving glow of our presence. We're much too important to ourselves to ever do something so unselfish.

That said, (getting to the point here) suicide is a raw deal. It's just like anything else large and profound, it can't be categorized------ and/or generalized for that matter. It happens for all different situations and circumstances.

Those poor people who chose to let themselves drop from the top floors of the Trade Center rather than suffocate to death.

A teenage couple who's parents are making them break-up.

A kid who's doing been up for three days doing meth and listening to Depeche Mode

The kamikaze pilots who flew their planes into our aircraft carriers in WW2 (assholes)

The once-famous actor whose career is floundering and so hangs himself in the closet with a wire hanger

The day trader whose lost "everything" in the market

The fat girl who doesn't get asked to the prom

The monk protesting military oppression

The panreatic cancer patient living out their final days in sheer, hopeless agony

The hometown hero, high school star athelete whose face is put on the front page of the local paper for date-rape

The girl he raped

The 16 year old Palestinian kid living in squalor with rats and disease whose lost faith in everything

The fanatic Korean soccer fan whose beloved team doesn't make it past the first rounds of the world cup

The tepid wife whose husband has cheated on her one too many times

The obsessed fan whose point of all-consuming attention gets married

Those two kids who killed 12 fellow classmates and a teacher, then themselves in Colombine

The nursing home resident whose family no longer comes to visit

*************

Like I said, buzzkill. The only thing they have in common, is they're all sad. One way or another. Suicide is a terrible, malevolent, destructive force, which leaves only casualties in it's wake.

I'm much too catholic to ever kill myself personally (sorry guys :) It's just the worst thing I could ever think of. It's probably the worst thing in the world.

As a closing, ehr, "denouement", if you will, I'd like to comment on the plight of those poor (though undoutedly sick) Palestinian people who are strapping explosives to themselves and blowing jews up in Israel.
That, in itself, is sick enough. It speaks for itself.

What's truly disturbing is they make fucking baseball cards out of these young guys (and, unbelievably) girls. Now, when I say baseball cards, I don't mean they come in little wax packets with a stick of gum in them, but THEY DO make up little placards with these guys' images on them with their names and everything and it's kind of fucked. Their mothers are proud. Little kids want to grow up to be suicide bombers. This is a pathetic situation. I sympathize with them to a degree. I have no idea why the Israelis have to settle in Gaza or the West Bank. That situation reminds me of Star Wars, when Luke goes into the desert and the Tusken Raiders beat the shit out of him. There's just no reason to be there.

I found it interesting that when the Israelis assasinated the Palestinian bomb-maker last week (thank God, by the way) that the New York Post (a rag, I know; but nonetheless) put his face alone on the cover, praising the accurate aim of the Israeli helicopter pilots. Meanwhile, you had to get to the third or fourth page to find out more than half a dozen kids were killed too.

I'm on the side of the Israelis. If I was a in charge over there, I would unleash the total fucking fury of my (impressively) powerful military and follow through with a decisive blow to pacify these brutal, out-of-touch-with-reality militants. For no other reason than they're sending civillians out to kill civillians, which is horid and indicitave of the mindset of the enemy you're against (which is incompetent). But I still think fair is fair. And now I understand why people in the Middle East call the western media biased.

The death toll of those kids should've been front page.

-AK









(Edited by American Kid at 4:02 am on Aug. 8, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from mcleodstickle on 12:38 am on Aug. 8, 2002


emm yes.... you sed, suicide is for the weak, and your two lap dogs SN and DC jumped to attention and agreed readily.

(Edited by mcleodstickle at 12:39 am on Aug. 8, 2002)



Hardly my lap dogs, they are just as, if not more, intelligent than I and have demonstrated independent thinking and original ideas more times than I can count. We are a team here. They just happened to agree with my position, which will happen from time to time among rightists, einstein.

I am, however, happy to call them my allies.

[Nickademus]

although depression is 'curable' there are many other aspects you should consider. i personally am depressed but not enough to necessarily warrant medication and i've never been suicidal. however, it was only amonth ago that i finally saw someoneabout it. in fact it isonly because of my GAD that I sawsomeone who toldme i have depression. i have gone for years without realize that i couldbe helped. and also years without wanting to get help because it was admiting i was weak. (see what the rumours do!). silly i know, and to think i'm 24 and should knowbetter.

so although technically speaking depression can be cured, itis often hard for someone to go get the help they need. that's a pretty simple solution to say they can be cured ofthe depression.

also perhaps you shoulddo some research on what someo f the meds for depression do to you, sometimes its worse than the depression itself.

[Stormin Norman]

Although I support better living through chemistry, I never recommended taking drugs of any kind to cure depression. In fact, I would classify that method of coping with life as a cop out that will fail to present any answers to the person affected.

Depression is a clinical term that fails to address the fact that life has it pertebations. Sometimes things are good sometimes they are bad. Many times psychologists uses depression as a way of generating job security. If you can convince someone that what they are feeling is purely a result of some disease, then the chances that they will come back and pay you $75 an hour for your time increases. Most of the time "depression" is simply the result of being a human. There is nothing more natural than feeling low when your life seams to be going poorly. This is a mechanism that signals that change is needed. When these feelings are suppressed, people will fall back into the old patterns that landed them in that situation to begin with. Nothing could be more inhumane than altering one's brain chemistry to create a flat lined emotional state.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 9:28 pm on Aug. 8, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 2:18 am on Aug. 8, 2002
what does suicide have to do with socialism or capitalism?

Someone give that guy a fucking medal. And then drive a stake through the damn cappies...

[queen of diamonds]

I can say this straight off - it's not easy standing there with a knife to your wrists. Trust me, I've been there.

That said, life got a lot better for me, and I did it without treatment. But the truth is, depression is more than an excuse for a bad day. For some it may be - but for thsoe truly suffering from depression, it actually is a chemical imbalance within the brain, that does need to be treated. And many people - especially kids - don't have accessible psychiatrists.

Suicide is a complex process. There's self-hate, definitely, but for me, there was also a belief that the world was honestly better off without me, and in that respect, I don't think it's cowardly. That's just in the circumstances of my life, though. The Japanese considered it a disgrace to be captured, preferring instead to suicide. The Ancient Greeks considered it a disgrace to run away, thinking it was honourable to die.

Anyone who wants to say that Palestinian suicide bombers are cowards because they kill innocents - what are the Americans doing, killing civilians in Afghanistan? And that too, from the air? And seriously, after these people have been bombing them, I doubt realise the difference between civilians and soldiers. But that's way off topic.

Oh, and for the idiot who claimed that self-inflicted pain represented power of some sort - yes, it does. Until you realise that you're actually taking away a lot of your own power to help yourself feel better & get out of the rut. Self-harm is a destructive method of coping. While I still contend that suicide is no weak, self-harm is hardly brave.

All that said - why is this in this forum, anyway?

[sugarcandy113]

When you think of suicide you cant just think of a depressed teenager killing themselves because suicide may take place for alot of reasons as i think AK already pointed out, so yeah, its definately not weak.

And as i have now realised thanks to Alan, self harm is definately not a good idea, it doesnt do anything, apart from getting shouted at by alan.

But hey im getting good at keeping promises ;)

*^*^Claire^*^*^