Operation on twins successfu

[Capitalist Imperial]

2 twins from rural guatemala, a $1.5 million operation made possible by the "Heal the Children" charity.

Yet another example of US medical technology and alturism

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59660,00.html

[James]

CI Read THIS (http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/e/e_nat.htm) please.

[concerned]

I am glad to hear the two twins came out of the operation ok. It is btw not at all the first time that children with all sorts of troubles have had to come from all over the globe for complicated and expensive surgeries without having to pay a cent.

The US is a truly altruistic nation. And this altruism is channelled in the way it is supposed to: through charities. Charities are a great thing. In charities true altruism can be seen since people may elect freely to contribute or not, as opposed to in a socialist regime where everybody is forced to contribute to an all powerful government and just hope they use that money wisely. In America it is optional to contribute to any of the many charities, so if one charity is not doing a good job in helping the people it is out of business because people will not wan to invest in it. It just makes everything a heck of a lot more efficient!.

[vox]

"More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday." Source (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0522-05.htm)

Another victory for the US health care industry.

vox

[Supermodel]

Nonetheless, all the best to the babies and their parents.

[PunkRawker677]

On CNN yesterday they said that around 10 million children, under the age of 18, don't have health insurance. I'll have to find the exact article as my source, but i'm 100% sure it was CNN.

[concerned]

Yea it probably was CNN, since CNN is so liberal. Anyway one thing is not having health insurance and a totally different thing is not having health care. They may not have health insurance but they do have health care.

[vox]

concerned wrote:

"Anyway one thing is not having health insurance and a totally different thing is not having health care. They may not have health insurance but they do have health care."

I restate:

"More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday."

vox

[Capitalist Imperial]

Her is Vox's source (USA Today, no less):

WASHINGTON -- "More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday."

Landmark by whose measure? "USA Today's"?

"The 193-page report, ''Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late,'' examines the plight of 30 million -- one
in seven -- working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care."

What about purchased health insurance? Are there documents to corroborate this claim? How was the study performed? What was the sample size?

"About 10 million children lack insurance; elderly Americans are covered by Medicare.
It is the second in a planned series of six reports by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examining the impact of the nation's fragmented health system. The IOM is a non-profit organization of experts that advises Congress on health issues."

What type of experts? Again, what were the parameters of the study? Did they compare to the 2000 census figures?

"Overall, the researchers say, 18,314 people die in the USA each year because they lack preventive services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care. The estimated death toll includes about 1,400 people with high blood pressure, 400 to 600 with breast cancer
and 1,500 diagnosed with HIV."

Blanket statements. No one is denied care for life threatening conditions, free clinics exist in the US.

"''Our purpose is simply to deliver the facts, and the facts are unequivocal,'' says Reed Tuckson, an author of the report and vice president for consumer health at UnitedHealth Group in Minnetonka, Minn."

Well, it is good to know that Mr. Tuckson is the be-all end-all of what is unequivocal.

"Among the study's findings is a comparison of the uninsured with the insured:"

How many from each group? Was there a neutral control group?

* Uninsured people with colon or breast cancer face a 50% higher risk of death.

"* Uninsured trauma victims are less likely to be admitted to the hospital, receive the full range of needed services, and are 37% more likely to die of their injuries."

Vox, do you really believe any trauma victimn is turned away from a hospital due to lack of insurance? It is illegal to turn away trauma victims, as by definition the injury is life threataning.

"* About 25% of adult diabetics without insurance for a year or more went without a checkup for two years. That boosts their risk of death, blindness and amputations resulting from poor circulation. Being uninsured also magnifies the risk of death and disability for chronically sick and mentally ill patients, poor people and minorities, who disproportionately lack access to medical care, the landmark study states."

Again, I want to see the paramenters of this study.

"''The report documents the immense consequence of having 40 million uninsured people out there,'' says Ray Werntz, a consumer health expert with the Employee Benefit Research Institute. ''We need to elevate the problem in the national conscience.'' Calculating the cost in human suffering, he says, ''is one way to get there.''"

blanket statements, blanket statements, blanket statements
Copyright © 2002 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.

[vox]

Comrades,

CI wants me to spoon feed him! Apparently, right-wingers are unable to look things up for themselves, so I offer the full report (http://www.nap.edu/books/0309083435/html/) for them to read.

In his daft respnse, CI even asks if there was a control group when comparing the uninsured to the insured. He obviously can't even grasp the difference between an analysis of data and an experiment! This is the profound intellectual ability of the right-wing at work. One has to wonder what such a "control group" would even look like. Would they be insured? Uninsured? What factor is to be controlled? CI offers nothing in this regard, of course, because the question itself is hopelessly flawed. Yes, there really is such a thing as a stupid question, and CI has given us a wonderful example for our amusement.

It was recently asked what happened to the high level of discussion here. I urge everyone to look at CI's post, including the ridiculous question, and find the answer for themselves.

vox

[Capitalist Imperial]

Vox, I will overlook your personal attacks and take the high road.

I have conceded in prevvious threads that the US health care system does need some work, and it is one of the few institutions that I believe would benefit from socialization or at least agreater element of social supplement.

I just feel that this article does not address how many of these individuals with inadequate health care simply choose not to purchase it in lieu of a nice SUV or home- entertainment center.

B4 we wre married, we paid for my now-wife to have health insurance. The cost was, while not mimnimal, manageable, for both us and those with significantly lower income than ours.

When it comes to health care, there seems to be little emphasis on personal responsibility.

[suffianr]

Oh Goodie! It's so wonderful, isn't it, Mr. Uncle Sam! I but your healthcare system sucks, buddy...

[James]

CI; Have you read it yet?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from James on 9:10 pm on Aug. 6, 2002
CI; Have you read it yet?

James, I quoted and addressed it in my 1st post, have you read anything here?

[James]

I think we've got crossed wires mate, quote yourself please...

[Capitalist Imperial]

oh, your article, ok, give me a minute

[I Will Deny You]

I am very happy to hear about those twins. Honestly. I could be a curmudgeon about this, but I won't. It's damned good news. How could a person frown when they hear about little kids beating the odds like that? My only problem is that 24,000 people die from starvation or malnutrition every day. Far more than two children could have been saved if the United States would donate the same percentage of its GDP to humanitarian relief in third-world countries as other G8 nations do. (Technically, it would not be irrational to ask for a little bit more than everyone else's contributions because the US has the greatest economy in the world, in part because of the exploitation of people in the third world.)
Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:16 pm on Aug. 6, 2002
I just feel that this article does not address how many of these individuals with inadequate health care simply choose not to purchase it in lieu of a nice SUV or home- entertainment center.
Nearly all people who can afford an SUV or home-entertainment center probably have health care already. I know people with no health care. Kids and adults. None of them have SUVs or home-entertainment centers. They chose not to purchase health insurance in lieu of food and clothing that actually fits their children. If you ask me, a person who works and is responsible deserves to have food AND health care. Call me a radical, call me what you will.

Lindsay

[IzmSchism]

CI you are a patritotic psycho.
Well maybe the surgery happened in the states, and congratulations to the team, who 2 out of the three head surgeons were from europe and asia. It was a global JOINT effort.

[j]

OK....so I did a little research into vox's article. Here's what I found:

The study is called "Care w/out Coverage: Too Little, Too Late." It was written by the Committee on the Consequences of Uninsurance in conjuction with the Institute of Medicine.

The project was approved by the Governing Board of the National Research Council which includes the National Academy of Science (which advises the gov't), National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine. It was funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

It is, "A review of clinical and epidemiological research." (So it is not an experiment requiring a control group. It is merely a review of research.) It includes the overview of the findings of 130 research studies. Most of these studies were done on working Americans aged 18-65.

It seems pretty comprehensive and legitimate. You can read it online at http://books.nap.edu/books/03090834351/html

Some of the jewels I found:

Being uninsured means:

-Less frequent or no use of cancer screening resulting in delayed diagnosis and premature mortality for cancer patients

-Failure to meet professionally recommended standards of care which results in, for example, diabetes patients failing to recieve timely eye and foot exams to prevent blindness and amputations.

-Lack of access to and maintainence of appropriate medication regimens for hypertension and HIV patients.

-fewer diagnostic and treatment services for trauma or heart attacks and increased risk of death in the hospital.

Of course no one is going to refuse care of a trauma patient, but the uninsured will recieve a lower standard of care which will affect his chances for living.

Some of the most vulnerable groups according to the study are:

-chronically ill (especially the 55-64 group)
-severly mentally ill
-racial/ethnic minorities
-members of low socioeconomic status.

You see, these are marginalized groups. They have very little say in this country. This is the problem.

Health Insurance should not be luxury!!!!!

j

[j]

And anyone curious about who Robert Wood Johnson was (the foundation that supported the study)?

He was a cappie folks, the founder of Johnson and Johnson. It seems CI is attacking the work of one of his own here.

Here's the bio from the foundations website:

Our Founder
Robert Wood Johnson devoted his life to public service and to building the small, but innovative, family firm of Johnson & Johnson into the world's largest health and medical care products conglomerate.

The title by which most knew him - General - grew out of his service during World War II as a brigadier general in charge of the New York Ordnance District. He resigned his commission to accept President Roosevelt's appointment as vice chairman of the War Production Board and chairman of the Smaller War Plants Corporation.

General Johnson was an ardent egalitarian, an industrialist fiercely committed to free enterprise who championed - and paid - a minimum wage even the unions of his day considered beyond expectation. He was a disciplined perfectionist who sometimes had to restrain himself from acts of reckless generosity. Over the course of his 74 years, General Johnson would also be a politician, writer, sailor, pilot, activist, and philanthropist.

His interest in hospitals led him to conclude that hospital administrators needed specialized training. So he joined with Dr. Malcolm Thomas MacEachern, then president of the American College of Surgeons, in a movement that led to the founding at Northwestern University of one of the first schools of hospital administration.

General Johnson also had an intense concern for the hospital patient whom he saw as being lost in the often bewildering world of medical care. He strongly advocated improved education for both doctors and nurses, and he admired a keen medical mind that also was linked to a caring heart.

His philosophy of corporate responsibility received its most enduring expression in his one-page management credo for Johnson & Johnson. It declares a company's first responsibility to be to its customers, followed by its workers, management, community, and stockholders - in that order.

Despite the intensity and determination he displayed in his role as a business leader, General Johnson had a warmth and compassion for those less privileged than he. He was always keenly aware of the need to help others, and during his lifetime, he helped many quietly and without fanfare.

Robert Wood Johnson's sense of personal responsibility toward society was expressed imperishably in the disposition of his own immense fortune. He left virtually all of it to the foundation that bears his name, creating one of the world's largest private philanthropies.

j