Gaza situation worse than Nazi camps

[Sky]

The Libyan Deputy Permanent UN Representative who compared Wednesday the situation in Gaza with Nazi concentration camps as a result of Israeli oppressive Israeli policy, has said Thursday the situation is even worse than in Nazi concentration camps because of regular Israeli bomb attacks.

"It is more than what happened in the concentration camps," Libya's deputy permanent U.N. representative, Ibrahim Dabbashi, told reporters. "There is the bombing, daily bombing (by Israel) ... in Gaza. It was not in the concentration camps."

"It is worse than that," said Dabbashi, who holds the rank of ambassador.
The United Nations has warned that closing Gaza's borders has resulted in a humanitarian crisis for the territory's 1.5 million people, most of whom depend on foreign aid.

Libya and other council members have been pushing for the Security Council to condemn the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which the United Nations says has made it very difficult to deliver food and medicine and has severely damaged the economy.

The United States has repeatedly refused to allow a balanced resolution or even a simple statement, written or verbal, to be released by the Security Council which would say that the plight of the Palestinians living in Gaza should be a matter of concern by all parties.
http://www.tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=1849



The observeations of the Libyan representative to the United Nations are insightful. Unlike the victims of the Nazi concentration camps, the people of Gaza are having to deal with almost daily bombardments of their towns and villages, causing an immense humanitarian crisis. The situation in Gaza is far more tragic than the crimes of the Nazis because there has not been justice of any kind reached by the long suffering Palestinian people who have been robbed of everything they've ever had. Israel must cease with its barbarity and conform to the obligations put forth by the international community.

[RGacky3]

Your Loony.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

You're loony. :P

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://www.o--rly.com/owl_orly.png

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

"The Libyan Deputy Permanent UN Representative..."

[redSHARP]

as much as i support the palestians: the lybians?! are there credible?

[Faux Real]

"The Libyan Deputy Permanent UN Representative..."We read that already.

the lybians?! are there credible?Did he exaggerate? Probably. Is he more credible than the representatives involved in the 'peace process' who walked out during his speech? Definitely. Are bombs/arty shells not falling weekly if not daily on the residents Gaza?

[redSHARP]

the lybians are known to be anti-israeli and only got that position on the human rights board because they got voted in by the African bloc. the situation does suck and international community needs to do something! but america would never be an even broker for peace and needs to get the fuck out!

[Led Zeppelin]

I didn't know that such living conditions as in the Nazi-concentration camps and Gaza today could be reduced to a "better" or "worse" measuring by comparing them.

But I guess for political purposes anything vile can be done to justify it.

[Dean]

The observeations of the Libyan representative to the United Nations are insightful. Unlike the victims of the Nazi concentration camps, the people of Gaza are having to deal with almost daily bombardments of their towns and villages, causing an immense humanitarian crisis. The situation in Gaza is far more tragic than the crimes of the Nazis because there has not been justice of any kind reached by the long suffering Palestinian people who have been robbed of everything they've ever had. Israel must cease with its barbarity and conform to the obligations put forth by the international community.

Yeah, suffocating in a pile of emaciated humans was just like a walk in the park compared to shrapnel.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

the lybians are known to be anti-israeli and only got that position on the human rights board because they got voted in by the African bloc. the situation does suck and international community needs to do something! but america would never be an even broker for peace and needs to get the fuck out!

Do you ever stop to consider the possibility that America is the only thing holding Israel back?

[RGacky3]

For some reason lately I've noticed a lot of rediculous statements comming from leftists. First it was just Sky, then others follow suit, I'm waiting for the Claim that Pol Pot was a champion in Human rights, and FDR raped babies.

[Phalanx]

I find it hard to believe that they were in Germany and Poland and could successfully compare the two.

[graffic]

Why are you quoting from a reactionary leader? Quoting George Bush would be more politically correct than quoting the Sybian leader.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I stopped reading when I saw "worse than Nazi camps".

[Peacekeeper]

Do you ever stop to consider the possibility that America is the only thing holding Israel back?

Are you deranged? The USA gives Israel over 3 billion USD in aid per year, not including weapons deals, etc. We're the only country that openly supports them, and our security council veto is all that is keeping them alive. If any country is keeping them from slaughtering all the Palestinian people tomorrow, it is the threat of massive Muslim retaliation from the surrounding nations, especially Iran.

[Phalanx]

Arab governments don't actually care about the Palestinians and they never have. If they had, the refugee problem in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon would've been corrected by massive aid shipments courtesy of the oil money.

[pusher robot]

Are you deranged? The USA gives Israel over 3 billion USD in aid per year, not including weapons deals, etc.

Well, those three gigadollars buy a lot of influence. So it's not as implausible as you seem to think.

[Bud Struggle]

Arab governments don't actually care about the Palestinians and they never have. If they had, the refugee problem in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon would've been corrected by massive aid shipments courtesy of the oil money.

Completely true--they use them and abuse them, and for that matter East Bank Palestinians have no use for the Gaza Palestinians, they hate each other.

[Dean]

Arab governments don't actually care about the Palestinians and they never have. If they had, the refugee problem in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon would've been corrected by massive aid shipments courtesy of the oil money.

I'm assuming that, because the other governments in the area aren't "racially loyal" that we can't blame the Israelis for their callous disregard for the same people. Just lovely.

[Dean]

Completely true--they use them and abuse them, and for that matter East Bank Palestinians have no use for the Gaza Palestinians, they hate each other.

Bullshit. The rift between Hamas and Fatah is a purely power-based one. Fatah is more capable of controlling the Palestinians. Hamas has decided to focus on Gaza because it is a lot easier to control, since it is smaller and hence more viable for such a small force.

[Bud Struggle]

Bullshit. The rift between Hamas and Fatah is a purely power-based one. Fatah is more capable of controlling the Palestinians. Hamas has decided to focus on Gaza because it is a lot easier to control, since it is smaller and hence more viable for such a small force.

Nope, it seems to be more of a (dare I say it?) CLASS based issue. The East Bank Palestinians feel that they are "better" and of a higher class than the Gaza Palestinians.

[Jazzratt]

Gaza situation worse than Nazi camps

No it isn't.

[Dean]

Nope, it seems to be more of a (dare I say it?) CLASS based issue. The East Bank Palestinians feel that they are "better" and of a higher class than the Gaza Palestinians.


East Bank? I wonder how well you really know the issue if you make such a glaring error (twice in different posts!). Even if there are prejudices, which I have little doubt that an impoverished, poorly educated population would have, such passing bigotry pales in comparison to the massive human rights offenses which occur on a national scale. Plus, there are huge pro-Gaza rallies in the West Bank, so any prejudices they have amount to petty differences rather than economic and military terror.

[Bud Struggle]

East Bank? I wonder how well you really know the issue if you make such a glaring error (twice in different posts!). Even if there are prejudices, which I have little doubt that an impoverished, poorly educated population would have, such passing bigotry pales in comparison to the massive human rights offenses which occur on a national scale. Plus, there are huge pro-Gaza rallies in the West Bank, so any prejudices they have amount to petty differences rather than economic and military terror.

Yup, I post between business thing--sorry West bank. Last time we were there we stayed at the U of Notre Dame place there: Tantur--and I was thinking (without thinking) EAST Jerusalem. But anyway, the fight is a reall big one and it's between the two Palestinian branches--and it's large and it's over CLASS.

And it is large. And they have been treated badly. And they are uneducated--but not stupid by a long streach. But they are subject to the whims of their religion and of their beliefs.

As much as Israel is wrong about how they treated these people, they need to realize that they can make the best of their situation. A lot of money is WAITING to be pumped in as soon as the situation settles down.

Having a needless feud against Israel is meaningless. They really need to get on with their lives. Israel isn't going away.

[redSHARP]

what ethinic group has the worst history. as in the most back stabbed, beaten, opressed group, and in general a bad history. i think the jews had it bad, but the kurds are another group that has been ethinally cleansed and opressed tons of times.

[Phalanx]

I'm assuming that, because the other governments in the area aren't "racially loyal" that we can't blame the Israelis for their callous disregard for the same people. Just lovely.

What the fuck? Arab governments have been touting the Palestinian cause ever Zionism appeared. But the fact is they've done jack shit to actually help those in need. They need the Palestinians to remain in camps so the world can see how evil Israel is.

[Bilan]

I didn't know that such living conditions as in the Nazi-concentration camps and Gaza today could be reduced to a "better" or "worse" measuring by comparing them.

But I guess for political purposes anything vile can be done to justify it.

Quoted for absolute fucking truth.

[Dean]

Yup, I post between business thing--sorry West bank. Last time we were there we stayed at the U of Notre Dame place there: Tantur--and I was thinking (without thinking) EAST Jerusalem. But anyway, the fight is a reall big one and it's between the two Palestinian branches--and it's large and it's over CLASS.
You really seem to believe this, and I haven't known you to be much of a liar. So, please give me some kind of source which explains this phenomenon, so I can judge the evidence myself.


And it is large. And they have been treated badly. And they are uneducated--but not stupid by a long streach. But they are subject to the whims of their religion and of their beliefs.

As much as Israel is wrong about how they treated these people, they need to realize that they can make the best of their situation. A lot of money is WAITING to be pumped in as soon as the situation settles down.

Having a needless feud against Israel is meaningless. They really need to get on with their lives. Israel isn't going away.

Well, you can always tell people to give up on freedom, to forget about their homes. It won't stop them, 'thank God.' :tt2:

[Dean]

What the fuck? Arab governments have been touting the Palestinian cause ever Zionism appeared. But the fact is they've done jack shit to actually help those in need. They need the Palestinians to remain in camps so the world can see how evil Israel is.

No shit. My point is that whenever Israels direct attacks, economic and military, against the Palestinians are pointed out, people like you try to justify it because someone else didn't help them. That's like saying the Taliban is responsible for Guantanamo Bay because they haven't stopped the U.S.. There is no reason for the Palestians to give up and give all their land to the Israelis, which is clearly what the gov't wants. So many will stay regardless. Yes, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are pretty fucked up in how they treat the refugees. But you ignore that they are refugees from a larger, more violent and oppressive phenomenon, which is the Israeli system of apartheid.

[Bud Struggle]

You really seem to believe this, and I haven't known you to be much of a liar. So, please give me some kind of source which explains this phenomenon, so I can judge the evidence myself.

Not lying Dean--it's just the impression I got. I very much could be wrong, Last time I was there, Israel still occupied Gaza and there definitely was a difference in moods and attitude between both Palestinians. There was a picture of Arafat with the owner of the store in every shop window in Gaza. Not so much on the WEST Bank. Both Gaza and the Left Bank talked the other down, quite a bit. ("Filthy, dirty, not true Moslems.") It just seemed (five years ago) there was no natural affinity.

I could be wrong--my impressions, and maybe it's a later day impression now that I've been so awakened to "class consciousness" in the hereabouts. The dislike was real. My attributing it to "class" I'm not so sure, but the WORDS were there.


Well, you can always tell people to give up on freedom, to forget about their homes. It won't stop them, 'thank God.' :tt2:

Freedom? Like the Chinese have or the North Koreans or the Cubans? They actually have plenty of freedom compaired to these countries.

They don't have money (even compaired to these countries.) They have first rate, hard core poverty. These people are hungry, fathers are desparately hunting for money to feed their families. Daily. the random closing of the boarders between Israel and the West Bank (and Gaza at the time--it must be hell there now,) was another day's wage not earned. It was regular and constant. I see economics as the real problem of the Israeli occupation. If the Israelis treated Palestinians as they do their 20% Arab/Muslim population--there would be no problem.

As always, I (we actually, me and the little missus) have traveled a bit and I rather give my impressions than those of some newspaper I've read. I very well miss somethings, but I really have no ax to grind in what I see. I try to be fair.

In Israel, I was much closer to my Palestinian cab drivers than I ever could be to the Israeli soldiers that occasionally frisked me at boarder crossings. We have Israeli friends--but they are much more guarded with their opinions than the cab drivers. (And when I say cab driver--we've been to their house for dinner and we've taken them and their families out for dinner.)

[Phalanx]

No shit. My point is that whenever Israels direct attacks, economic and military, against the Palestinians are pointed out, people like you try to justify it because someone else didn't help them. That's like saying the Taliban is responsible for Guantanamo Bay because they haven't stopped the U.S.. There is no reason for the Palestians to give up and give all their land to the Israelis, which is clearly what the gov't wants. So many will stay regardless. Yes, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are pretty fucked up in how they treat the refugees. But you ignore that they are refugees from a larger, more violent and oppressive phenomenon, which is the Israeli system of apartheid.

I think you're generally right, but I've got a question. When you say 'they' are refugees, do you mean the native Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians?

[RGacky3]

I think its important to point out that some of the most ardent opposers of Iseals apartied regiem, and oppression of the palestinians has been Isreali Jews, many of them have risked a lot to oppose oppression.


They have first rate, hard core poverty. These people are hungry, fathers are desparately hunting for money to feed their families. Daily. the random closing of the boarders between Israel and the West Bank (and Gaza at the time--it must be hell there now,) was another day's wage not earned. It was regular and constant. I see economics as the real problem of the Israeli occupation. If the Israelis treated Palestinians as they do their 20% Arab/Muslim population--there would be no problem.


That sentance right there, "If the Israelis treated Palestinians as they do their 20% Arab/Muslim population." Theres my problem, no ones well being should be dependent on how other people treat them, it should'nt even be up to the Israelies to treat the Palestians nice, the same way it should'nt be up to the Capitalist to treat his workers nice, he should'nt have the option of treating them good or bad, he should'nt have the authority to dictate that.

[Dean]

Not lying Dean--it's just the impression I got. I very much could be wrong, Last time I was there, Israel still occupied Gaza and there definitely was a difference in moods and attitude between both Palestinians. There was a picture of Arafat with the owner of the store in every shop window in Gaza. Not so much on the WEST Bank. Both Gaza and the Left Bank talked the other down, quite a bit. ("Filthy, dirty, not true Moslems.") It just seemed (five years ago) there was no natural affinity.

I could be wrong--my impressions, and maybe it's a later day impression now that I've been so awakened to "class consciousness" in the hereabouts. The dislike was real. My attributing it to "class" I'm not so sure, but the WORDS were there.
A little bit of bigotry can go a long way - specifically, in coloring your impression of the people making the statements. I don't think you're lying, I just don't trust that the prejudice is a unanimous, or even necessarily large, phenomenon.




Freedom? Like the Chinese have or the North Koreans or the Cubans? They actually have plenty of freedom compaired to these countries.
Like the freedom to be bombed regularly, to be used as human shields, and to have their energy and homes stolen? Yeah, I guess in that sense they are very 'free.'


They don't have money (even compaired to these countries.) They have first rate, hard core poverty. These people are hungry, fathers are desparately hunting for money to feed their families. Daily. the random closing of the boarders between Israel and the West Bank (and Gaza at the time--it must be hell there now,) was another day's wage not earned. It was regular and constant. I see economics as the real problem of the Israeli occupation. If the Israelis treated Palestinians as they do their 20% Arab/Muslim population--there would be no problem.

As always, I (we actually, me and the little missus) have traveled a bit and I rather give my impressions than those of some newspaper I've read. I very well miss somethings, but I really have no ax to grind in what I see. I try to be fair.

In Israel, I was much closer to my Palestinian cab drivers than I ever could be to the Israeli soldiers that occasionally frisked me at boarder crossings. We have Israeli friends--but they are much more guarded with their opinions than the cab drivers. (And when I say cab driver--we've been to their house for dinner and we've taken them and their families out for dinner.)

It's good to have such first hand contact, but I have as well. I have not travelled there, but I have friends who live in both the territories and Israel. Most are Jewish Israeli citizens, and they agree that ISrael is a lot more oppressive than you seem to think. Freedom doesn't mean having ~100,000 of a fairly small population locked up illegally by a foreign power.

[Dean]

I think you're generally right, but I've got a question. When you say 'they' are refugees, do you mean the native Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians?

I mean all the displaced civilians in refugee camps.

[Bud Struggle]

but I have friends who live in both the territories and Israel. Most are Jewish Israeli citizens, and they agree that ISrael is a lot more oppressive than you seem to think.

Don't get me wrong--I think it's very opressive, I just think that Israel is not going anywhere and the Palestinians have to understand that. They can live with Hamas in constant fighting and poverty waiting for a "justice" that will never come or they can move on with their lives.

A LOT of people are interested (or were interested) in investing in Gaza when it became independant--but no one will touch the place until the Palestinians forget about Israel and concentrate on making Gaza livable for it's citizens.

And end story about the Wast Bank and Gaza--there is no unity between those two peoples.

[Phalanx]

And end story about the Wast Bank and Gaza--there is no unity between those two peoples.

I think it's because developing nations without contiguous boundaries seldom work out. An example would be the east-west Pakistan problem.

[Phalanx]

I mean all the displaced civilians in refugee camps.

Alright we're in agreement then.

[RNK]

The only thing Palestinians have up on Jews is that those Israeli gas chambers aren't yet operational. They try to make up for it with frequent military actions, bombings, snipings, assassinations and wholesale murders of Palestinians.

The situation in Palestine and especially Gaza is more synonymous with the Warsaw Ghetto; both were small areas in which a high number of refugees sought.. refuge.. both of which were containment zones for "undesirables", both suffered from frequent military incurions, both suffered from mass deaths, executions and barbaric assaults on innocents in the name of "fighting terrorists", both have been seiged, barricaded, embargoed and blockaded in order to subdue their populations, and both have seen absolutely heroic action on the part of their populations in resisting the murderous attempts of fascist invaders to exterminate them.

[graffic]

No shit. My point is that whenever Israels direct attacks, economic and military, against the Palestinians are pointed out, people like you try to justify it because someone else didn't help them.

Israel directs its attacks against the terroists who are driving a unjustified racist "Palestinian" cause primarily against Jews.

Hezbollahs rockets are aimed at Jews not "Israelis".

The Israeli rockets however are aimed at terroists who hide among Palestinian civilians. The terroists dont give a fuck about human life or human rights, that is why they fire their rockets from school playgrounds which feeds the bad Israel media coverage.

The assumption that Israelis are waging a war against innocent in-defensable Palestinians is the sort of opinion an ignorant bigot would form after watching 5 minutes of the news.



That's like saying the Taliban is responsible for Guantanamo Bay because they haven't stopped the U.S.. There is no reason for the Palestians to give up and give all their land to the Israelis, which is clearly what the gov't wants. So many will stay regardless. Yes, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are pretty fucked up in how they treat the refugees. But you ignore that they are refugees from a larger, more violent an"Their land"?

If Israel is the "Palestinian peoples land" then the United Kingdom is the "Saxons" land and America is the native Indians "land". Do you see where this thinking gets us?

The Jews have a right to self-determination, just the same as the Palestinians and any other ethnic group does. And the Israelis have set up a democratic state willing to treat all citizens equally regardless of race. Why do you support a cause which is pushing for the opposite of this?

[KC]

Israel directs its attacks against the terroists

Damn those terrorists for commemorating the Nakba by returning to their village! Tear gas them all (http://fanonite.org/2008/05/18/paramilitary-police-attack-al-nakba-march/), women and children included! They're all terrorists!


Hezbollahs rockets are aimed at Jews not "Israelis".

No, they are aimed at Israel.

[Dean]

Israel directs its attacks against the terroists who are driving a unjustified racist "Palestinian" cause primarily against Jews.

Hezbollahs rockets are aimed at Jews not "Israelis".

The Israeli rockets however are aimed at terroists who hide among Palestinian civilians. The terroists dont give a fuck about human life or human rights, that is why they fire their rockets from school playgrounds which feeds the bad Israel media coverage.

The assumption that Israelis are waging a war against innocent in-defensable Palestinians is the sort of opinion an ignorant bigot would form after watching 5 minutes of the news.
Ignorant, xenophobic trash which doesn't warrant a response.


"Their land"?

If Israel is the "Palestinian peoples land" then the United Kingdom is the "Saxons" land and America is the native Indians "land". Do you see where this thinking gets us?

The Jews have a right to self-determination, just the same as the Palestinians and any other ethnic group does. And the Israelis have set up a democratic state willing to treat all citizens equally regardless of race. Why do you support a cause which is pushing for the opposite of this?

I am assuming that you haven't read about the annexation of palestinian land for the last 60 years by Israel (post 1967 borders). Either that or you trust a "2000 year old Jewish birthright" more than someone's right to live where they were born. Actually, I'm pretty sure its the second one, you racist piece of trash :)

[Killfacer]

Dean, why do you smile as you call someone a racist peice of trash, seems stupid. Oh you are stupid. Ok.

I dont think saying "Ignorant, xenophobic trash which doesn't warrant a response." is adequate response. Explain why it is ignorant because to many what he said makes good sense. I would also like to ask you where you think the Palestinians got their land? That area has changed hands at an alarming rate throughout human history, why is the claim of the palastinians any more valid than that of the jews or anyone else for that matter.

[Peacekeeper]

Dean, why do you smile as you call someone a racist peice of trash, seems stupid. Oh you are stupid. Ok.
No wonder you're restricted. :)

[careyprice31]

Are you deranged? The USA gives Israel over 3 billion USD in aid per year, not including weapons deals, etc. We're the only country that openly supports them, and our security council veto is all that is keeping them alive. If any country is keeping them from slaughtering all the Palestinian people tomorrow, it is the threat of massive Muslim retaliation from the surrounding nations, especially Iran.

exactly. how true.

and Sky, have you gone like completely out of your tree?

[Dean]

Dean, why do you smile as you call someone a racist peice of trash, seems stupid. Oh you are stupid. Ok.

I dont think saying "Ignorant, xenophobic trash which doesn't warrant a response." is adequate response. Explain why it is ignorant because to many what he said makes good sense. I would also like to ask you where you think the Palestinians got their land? That area has changed hands at an alarming rate throughout human history, why is the claim of the palastinians any more valid than that of the jews or anyone else for that matter.

It's no more vaid than Jewish claims. The race is not the issue here, but those on the pro-Israel side always frame debate as if it were about racial rights. That is where the whoel debate goes sour. Like most people, I support a person's right to live in and inheret the land they were born on. Israeli policy is against that right in all its forms, and the nation is openly aggressive and expansionist. Anybody with a lick of sense can see that, even ignoring all the other major land and human rights disputes since 1967, Israel is still a very violent, oppressive regime. People that stand on the side of Israel will never concede this point beacause it isn't about that: it's about not appearing to be antisemitic when they support the largest, most recent ghetto in human history.

[Killfacer]

Yes but Israel is not the only expansionist country. What about the war in which Egypt, Jordan, Iran and others invaded them? Yes the expanded but only after they were invaded by anti semites. You say it isnt about race. Tell that to Hamas and the like who think it isnt israelies who should die, its jews.

[Dean]

Yes but Israel is not the only expansionist country. What about the war in which Egypt, Jordan, Iran and others invaded them? Yes the expanded but only after they were invaded by anti semites. You say it isnt about race. Tell that to Hamas and the like who think it isnt israelies who should die, its jews.

They were attacked because they stole land from a society friendly to the states you mentioned, and caused a huge refugee problem in their states. The U.S. does the same thing all over the world.

[graffic]

No, they are aimed at Israel.They are aimed at Israeli Jews and earn cheers whenever a Jewish Grandmother or child is killed.

Whenever an Israeli Arab is killed apologies are made to familys of the victim.

For Example..

Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hizbullah:

He apologized to the familys of two Israeli children who were killed by a Hizbullah rocket that hit Nazareth. He called them shahids, martyrs, even though they did not choose to die at the hands of terroists.

Its ironic this thread is comparing Gaza to the Holocaust when a more real comparison would be Hizbullah to the Nazis. The "Arab-Israeli" conflict represents the first instance since the Holocaust that Jews, as Jews, are being specifically targeted by an international organization that seeks recognition as a legitimate power. Hizbullah is as anti-semitic as Nazi Germany.

They've even collaborated with Agentine Neo-Nazis to murder many Jews, including children.

This isnt rare within the Palestinian cause. The first ever recognised leader of the Palestinians, the Grand Mutfti, was an anti-semite who collaborated with Hitler and whole heartedly supported the final solution.

Hizbullahs goal is to liberate Palestine. To liberate "Islamic holy land".

These guys are reactionary bigots pure and simple.

And insisting that there is a moral equivalence between Hizbullahs anti-semitic targeting of Jews and Israels defensive actions directed at military targets is seriously fucked up.

[Peacekeeper]

Oh - you're restricted. For a moment I thought a real Leftist was defending the Israelis.

[Killfacer]

So Dean, now your saying its ok to do something because somebody else did it. Pathetic. If they were so friendly they would be letting in more palastinian immigrants.

[Dean]

So Dean, now your saying its ok to do something because somebody else did it. Pathetic. If they were so friendly they would be letting in more palastinian immigrants.

No, I'm not. I'm explaining away something that I don't even need to argue, really. The Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese states can be as evil as they won't and it won't justify Israeli actions. You are trying to create a really shoddy smokescreen.

[Killfacer]

no actually you said "The U.S. does the same thing all over the world." and used it as an excuse.

It has nothing to do with a smoke screen, its just the context in which israel imperialism has to be set.

[Dean]

no actually you said "The U.S. does the same thing all over the world." and used it as an excuse.

It has nothing to do with a smoke screen, its just the context in which israel imperialism has to be set.

"Yes but Israel is not the only expansionist country. What about the war in which Egypt, Jordan, Iran and others invaded them? Yes the expanded but only after they were invaded by anti semites. "

How does that not appear as an excuse?

You clearly have no justification for Israel's tyranny, and you just want to defend an indefensible position. This conversation is over, kid.

[Plagueround]

Oh - you're restricted. For a moment I thought a real Leftist was defending the Israelis.

Of all the people to be making fun of those with the restricted tag... :laugh:

As for the Israel-Palestine conflict, I don't even know where to begin with that mess. I've researched the hell out of it, thought about it, and even talked to close friends from both sides who's families immigrated from the area ...and I can't come to any conclusion other than holding my head in my hand and shaking my head.

[Phalanx]

No, I'm not. I'm explaining away something that I don't even need to argue, really. The Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese states can be as evil as they won't and it won't justify Israeli actions. You are trying to create a really shoddy smokescreen.

Actually, I think it's people like you that create the smokescreen. The crimes of the Arab governments are rarely if ever discussed on this board, instead the focus is on Israel and the Palestinians.

Fact is, I think it's just fashionable for people in the West to sympathize with the Palestinians just like the Tibetans. Liberals love to show the world that they have a heart, regardless if the land they're standing on is stolen as well. England was taken from the Celts by the Angles, Japan was taken from the Ainu by the mainland Chinese, Australia Canada New Zealand and the US by the Brits and so on. Hell, even the Bantu took much of southern Africa at the expense of the indigenous tribes.

The Israelis were just better at conquering and now the Mideast has to live with them because they're not going anywhere.
This anti-imperialism crusade you guys are on is completely ridiculous, considering you've got nothing to gain or lose by the plight of the Palestinians. Owe up to the fact that deep down, you don't really care.

[Dean]

Actually, I think it's people like you that create the smokescreen. The crimes of the Arab governments are rarely if ever discussed on this board, instead the focus is on Israel and the Palestinians.

Fact is, I think it's just fashionable for people in the West to sympathize with the Palestinians just like the Tibetans. Liberals love to show the world that they have a heart, regardless if the land they're standing on is stolen as well. England was taken from the Celts by the Angles, Japan was taken from the Ainu by the mainland Chinese, Australia Canada New Zealand and the US by the Brits and so on. Hell, even the Bantu took much of southern Africa at the expense of the indigenous tribes.

The Israelis were just better at conquering and now the Mideast has to live with them because they're not going anywhere.
This anti-imperialism crusade you guys are on is completely ridiculous, considering you've got nothing to gain or lose by the plight of the Palestinians. Owe up to the fact that deep down, you don't really care.

How did you know? I just hate the successful, and I really don't care about the oppressed. What an epiphany.

[Phalanx]

the last part was tongue in cheek

[Killfacer]

phalanx does have a point though. It was all up for grabs and just because Israel defeated all the other countries they have decided to take the morale high ground and pretend they never wanted to fight in the first place.

I do not deny that Israel has done extremely stupid things and does over react alot of the time. But your black and white opinion is painfully simplistic. All im trying to say is that Israel is not entirely to blame for the middle east problem, not only that but the other countries surrounding Israel/palestine are more to blame than either of the two countries for Israel imperialism. Also can you refrain from calling me "kid" this isnt a buddy movie.

[RGacky3]

All im trying to say is that Israel is not entirely to blame for the middle east problem, not only that but the other countries surrounding Israel/palestine are more to blame than either of the two countries for Israel imperialism.

Well, the problem started in the 50s when the palestinians were kicked out of their land by the British making a homeland for the jews, so in a way, yeah, obviously bothsides could have done things more diplomatically, but its very hard to be diplomatic when one side has tanks and helocopters and the other has nothing, and one side wants complete control over that area (by their actions it would seam that way).


Fact is, I think it's just fashionable for people in the West to sympathize with the Palestinians just like the Tibetans. Liberals love to show the world that they have a heart, regardless if the land they're standing on is stolen as well. England was taken from the Celts by the Angles, Japan was taken from the Ainu by the mainland Chinese, Australia Canada New Zealand and the US by the Brits and so on. Hell, even the Bantu took much of southern Africa at the expense of the indigenous tribes.

Your right, but those are all unfortunate things IN HISTORY, the isreali-palestinian thing is going on NOW, and its been going on, oh and I don't know about europe but in the United States being pro-palestinian is'nt so fassionable.


He apologized to the familys of two Israeli children who were killed by a Hizbullah rocket that hit Nazareth. He called them shahids, martyrs, even though they did not choose to die at the hands of terroists.

The meaning of Martyre is not dying willingly, thats why the Apostle Peter is said to be Martyred, he died for his faith, not willingly.


They are aimed at Israeli Jews and earn cheers whenever a Jewish Grandmother or child is killed.

There are a number of Jews in Iran (aledgadly hizbollas homeboys) why hav'nt they been targeted? I guarantee you, if the Isrealis were Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist or whatever the reaction would be the same, its not like the jews just showed up and they were hated just for being jewish, thats a rediculous way of looking at it.

[Phalanx]

Your right, but those are all unfortunate things IN HISTORY, the isreali-palestinian thing is going on NOW, and its been going on, oh and I don't know about europe but in the United States being pro-palestinian is'nt so fassionable.Last time I checked the news the aftershocks of the Tibetan invasion were still being felt. Never been to Europe, but among liberal circles in America yes, it is fashionable to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Tibetan. Just like it's fashionable for celebrities to wear the names or pictures of commies.

Besides, of the atrocities going on now, the Sudan, Myanmar, the Congo, Colombia, Chechnya and a whole shit ton more gain little attention.

[Robert]

It's never cool to support the establishment.

[RGacky3]

Never been to Europe, but among liberal circles in America yes, it is fashionable to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Tibetan.

Among Liberal circles, yeah you could say its fashionable, I could also say its fascionable among conservatie circles to be pro-isreal. Or maybe its that both might have some reasons for supporting who they do, writing it off as being fashionable is like me saying "oh Conservatives just support isreal because they want to fit in with other conservatives."

[Phalanx]

I think many people, liberal and conservative, do base their opinions on what similar minded people think. That's the problem with identifying yourself with any side, kind of like identifying yourself with any theocratic beliefs including atheism. When you identify yourself with a side you give up a certain amount of personal autonomy.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

The Jews have a right to self-determination, just the same as the Palestinians and any other ethnic group does. And the Israelis have set up a democratic state willing to treat all citizens equally regardless of race.
Ah, but the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, which is why they get mistreated and oppressed. The entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict would end tomorrow if Israel decided to give citizenship to all the Palestinians and grant them the same legal rights as all other Israeli citizens.

And why don't they do that? Because then there would be too many Muslims in Israel, and that's unacceptable because Israel needs to remain a state based on ethnicity and religion rather than universal human rights.

[Killfacer]

thats laughable, the Israel-palestian conflict wouldnt end if Israel gave Palestinians equal rights. The hatred goes far to deep for anything that simple to work. Many Palestinians hate Israeli's and no citizenship can destroy that hatred. Its works the same way round too, many Isreali's hate Palestinians and no one act of peace by the Palestinians would change that.

Also, im trying to post an article on the OI section, yet it keeps telling me i cannot do it because of some crap about "tags" help anyone?

[Bud Struggle]

Also, im trying to post an article on the OI section, yet it keeps telling me i cannot do it because of some crap about "tags" help anyone?

I have the same problem--I posted for help in the technical forum.

[Dean]

I think many people, liberal and conservative, do base their opinions on what similar minded people think. That's the problem with identifying yourself with any side, kind of like identifying yourself with any theocratic beliefs including atheism. When you identify yourself with a side you give up a certain amount of personal autonomy.

Most of the people I've met who call themselves liberal are indifferent to or outright oppose any campaigning for the people of Palestine. While I have noticed that pro-Palestinian groups have gained ground recently, it is not a general tendency, but the result of the anti-war movement and its focus on the middle east. I know I hadn't seen any other pro-Palestinian groups or protesters in the U.S. before I got involved.

[graffic]

Ah, but the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, which is why they get mistreated and oppressed. The entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict would end tomorrow if Israel decided to give citizenship to all the Palestinians and grant them the same legal rights as all other Israeli citizens.

And why don't they do that? Because then there would be too many Muslims in Israel, and that's unacceptable because Israel needs to remain a state based on ethnicity and religion rather than universal human rights.

Yes, the conflict would end tomorrow if Israel granted citizenship to all the Palestinians living in refugee camps.

However, why should Israel do that?

If all Palestinians flooded into Israel, Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. Israel would lose its Jewish identity, the Jews would be denied self-determination..

The reactionary, right-wing Islamic wing of the Arab world would have their own fucked up deluded way.

Israel was more than willing (at the beginning) to give a proportion of Palestinians citizenship - which the newly born country could handle. The Arab governments however (who the UN and everyone else in the world condemned at the time) refused to take any Palestinians into their countrys.

You also have to remember Israel was largely made up of Jews who were driven out of Arab countrys due to anti-semitic violence and hatred.

Ask yourself this: What world are we living in where Arabs can have 22 states with Islamic/Arab identity and the Jews are condemned for having 1 state with a Jewish identity. Why should the Jews have to give up their right to self-determination for the sake of a proportion of displaced Arabs, given the name "Palestinian" (which was actually a dererogratory term used to describe Arabs by the Romans).

Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians or Syrians. Palestinian Nationalism is a modern phenonemon which has more to do with "Lets fuck the Jews over!" than giving the Palestinians a state with their own identity. This is evidenced by the amount of times Palestinian leaders have turned down offers to nationhood, lobbyed by Islamic leaders of Arab countrys.

The Palestinians are still living in squalid refugee camps to this day while the UN pushes for Arab governments to take them in.

The Arab leaders don't care about the lives of Palestinian women and children, all they care about is destroying the 1 Jewish state.

[Bud Struggle]

Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians or Syrians. Palestinian Nationalism is a modern phenonemon which has more to do with "Lets fuck the Jews over!" than giving the Palestinians a state with their own identity. This is evidenced by the amount of times Palestinian leaders have turned down offers to nationhood, lobbyed by Islamic leaders of Arab countrys.

The Palestinians are still living in squalid refugee camps to this day while the UN pushes for Arab governments to take them in.

This is pretty true. There were no such thing as Palestinians before the 1967 War. All these people were citizens of either Egypt, or Jordan or Syria. They became "Palistinians" when they were conquored by Israel. And that further gives creedance to my point about the West Bank and the Gaza Palestinians disliking each other--they never were from the same country.

And indeed if granted citizenship in Israel these people wouldstill try to kill every Jew they could find. Now part of this is Israel's fault for letting this situation go on so long, but that's just the way the situation is.


The Arab leaders don't care about the lives of Palestinian women and children, all they care about is destroying the 1 Jewish state.

True. And the Palestinians are just pawns in another round of world class anti-Semitism.

[Phalanx]

Most of the people I've met who call themselves liberal are indifferent to or outright oppose any campaigning for the people of Palestine. While I have noticed that pro-Palestinian groups have gained ground recently, it is not a general tendency, but the result of the anti-war movement and its focus on the middle east. I know I hadn't seen any other pro-Palestinian groups or protesters in the U.S. before I got involved.

It might have to do with location as well. I didn't think of Virginia as the biggest liberal hangout, but southern Wisconsin is filled with Saab-driving yuppies that fake sympathy for the Palestinians. I think to some degree those kind of people want to attach themselves to a cause other than Tibet.

But nationwide you're right, liberals are generally apathetic to the Palestinians and more focused on the Iraq War and it makes quite a bit of sense.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

If all Palestinians flooded into Israel, Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. Israel would lose its Jewish identity, the Jews would be denied self-determination...
First of all, to consider Israel a "Jewish state" as if all Jews had the same interests is romantic nationalist crap. Israel isn't the state of all Jews. It certainly isn't the state of the Jewish workers. It is a bourgeois state like nearly every state in the world. The only difference is that the Israeli bourgeoisie happens to be Jewish. Big deal. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Second, please tell me how you would react to a person who said the following:

- "If Mexicans flooded into the US, the US would cease to be a White state. The US would lose its White identity, the American Whites would be denied self-determination..."

Would you consider such a person a racist? Would you consider him a paranoid nutcase? Ah. My point exactly.


You also have to remember Israel was largely made up of Jews who were driven out of Arab countrys due to anti-semitic violence and hatred.
No, it was largely made up of Jews who were driven out of Europe due to anti-semitic violence and hatred.


Ask yourself this: What world are we living in where Arabs can have 22 states with Islamic/Arab identity and the Jews are condemned for having 1 state with a Jewish identity.
There is something fundamentally wrong with a state having any "identity." To suggest that a state needs to have an "identity" - especially one that excludes large numbers of people who have been living on that state's territory for many generations - is oppressive, unjust, tyrannical, and usually racist. It's like saying that it's ok for South Africa to be a white-only state as long as there are 22 African states ruled by blacks around it.


Why should the Jews have to give up their right to self-determination for the sake of a proportion of displaced Arabs, given the name "Palestinian" (which was actually a dererogratory term used to describe Arabs by the Romans).
There were no Arabs in Palestine in Roman times. Leaving that aside, however, the point is that these Arabs have been driven out of their homes. Yes, there are plenty of other Arab countries. So what? If someone kicked you out of your home and out of your town, would you feel any better if you were told that there were plenty of other countries out there with people who speak your language and share your customs?

Didn't think so.

This isn't about nations, this isn't about identity, this isn't about any of that meaningless idealistic bullshit. This is just about a bunch of people who were driven out of their homes.

[Phalanx]

First of all, to consider Israel a "Jewish state" as if all Jews had the same interests is romantic nationalist crap. Israel isn't the state of all Jews. It certainly isn't the state of the Jewish workers. It is a bourgeois state like nearly every state in the world. The only difference is that the Israeli bourgeoisie happens to be Jewish. Big deal. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Second, please tell me how you would react to a person who said the following:

- "If Mexicans flooded into the US, the US would cease to be a White state. The US would lose its White identity, the American Whites would be denied self-determination..."

Would you consider such a person a racist? Would you consider him a paranoid nutcase? Ah. My point exactly.



You've become too utopian my friend. Multinational states generally don't work all that well, Taking the US, India and Belgium as examples. Two of them experience horrible oppression based on race or ethnicity, the other may not even exist in the future. The vast majority of Israeli Jews would strongly oppose any right of return for Palestinians. Now that Israel has built the wall and suicide bombings have dropped drastically, why should they even consider negotiating with the Palestinians? The weak making demands on the powerful is unheard of.



There were no Arabs in Palestine in Roman times. Leaving that aside, however, the point is that these Arabs have been driven out of their homes. Yes, there are plenty of other Arab countries. So what? If someone kicked you out of your home and out of your town, would you feel any better if you were told that there were plenty of other countries out there with people who speak your language and share your customs?



If someone kicked myself out of my hometown and it was obvious that we weren't coming back, I'd worry about the future of my children and try to succeed elsewhere. The Palestinians have wounded pride, to be sure, but clinging to the last shreds of pride won't feed their children.

Race, for being a less than 0.1 genetic difference between humans, is less an actual difference than a way to justify persecution. But even in a land as homogeneus as Somalia, people divide themselves amoung tribal and clan lines. I don't think the world will change much beyond people having an identity and hating other for having an identity different than their own. You can waste you time on something like Communism or you can try to better yourself and those around you by getting a decent education and working hard.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

You've become too utopian my friend. Multinational states generally don't work all that well, Taking the US, India and Belgium as examples. Two of them experience horrible oppression based on race or ethnicity, the other may not even exist in the future.
Ummm, virtually every state in the world outside of Europe is a multinational state (with a few rare exceptions like Japan). Even Israel as it stands today is a de facto multinational state, because it is composed of Jewish immigrants from very different parts of the world with very different cultural views.

So, unless you're going to argue that most states in the world are about to implode and collapse, you have to admit that a multinational state can, in fact, survive.


The vast majority of Israeli Jews would strongly oppose any right of return for Palestinians. Now that Israel has built the wall and suicide bombings have dropped drastically, why should they even consider negotiating with the Palestinians? The weak making demands on the powerful is unheard of.
Right, which is why nothing will change unless the Palestinians become more powerful relative to Israel.


If someone kicked myself out of my hometown and it was obvious that we weren't coming back, I'd worry about the future of my children and try to succeed elsewhere. The Palestinians have wounded pride, to be sure, but clinging to the last shreds of pride won't feed their children.
Most of the Palestinians fighting against Israel are young, have no children and no prospects for the future. These are people with almost nothing left to lose.


Race, for being a less than 0.1 genetic difference between humans, is less an actual difference than a way to justify persecution. But even in a land as homogeneus as Somalia, people divide themselves amoung tribal and clan lines. I don't think the world will change much beyond people having an identity and hating other for having an identity different than their own.
First of all, there has been an undeniable trend throughout human history of people associating their identity with larger and larger groups. At first, one's identity was associated with one's family. From that it progressed to the level of tribe, and more recently to whole nations - although some places, such as Somalia, have not yet reached the national level. I see no reason to believe that this trend is about to end. And if it continues, eventually people will come to associate their identity with the entire human species. That is one of the goals of communism.


You can waste you time on something like Communism or you can try to better yourself and those around you by getting a decent education and working hard.
How about getting a decent education, working hard, and trying to better yourself and those around you by fighting for communism?

The real waste of time - a waste of life - is to live for no reason at all. Communism, among other things, gives my life purpose. Does your life have a purpose, or do you just live out of inertia, wasting time on meaningless petty things until the day you die and are forgotten?

[Publius]

The observeations of the Libyan representative to the United Nations are insightful. Unlike the victims of the Nazi concentration camps, the people of Gaza are having to deal with almost daily bombardments of their towns and villages, causing an immense humanitarian crisis. The situation in Gaza is far more tragic than the crimes of the Nazis because there has not been justice of any kind reached by the long suffering Palestinian people who have been robbed of everything they've ever had. Israel must cease with its barbarity and conform to the obligations put forth by the international community.

You would have to be the dumbest motherfucker in the entire world to think that Gaza was worse than a concentration camp.

I'd rather live in Gaza then in Bergen-Belsen 7 days out the week and twice and Sundays.

And anyone who says differently is either lying or is too fucking stupid to bother with.

I don't throw around the A-word too often, but this is anti-semitism plain and simple.

You should be ashamed.

[Phalanx]

So, unless you're going to argue that most states in the world are about to implode and collapse, you have to admit that a multinational state can, in fact, survive.No, of course they're not on the brink of destruction, but I do think that multinational countries create more problems for themselves. I don't think that Norway has the same inner city-suburb disparity that the US or Brazil has. It's easier to divide the working class when there's visible differences between them, whether they be ethnic or religious. Even a fairly tolerant society like New Zealand still stomps all over Maoris. The only way to combat this is through (unbiased) education.


First of all, there has been an undeniable trend throughout human history of people associating their identity with larger and larger groups. At first, one's identity was associated with one's family. From that it progressed to the level of tribe, and more recently to whole nations - although some places, such as Somalia, have not yet reached the national level. I see no reason to believe that this trend is about to end. And if it continues, eventually people will come to associate their identity with the entire human species. That is one of the goals of communism.I'd definitely agree with you here. Although I still believe that humans, with all their good intentions, still divide themselves in 'tribes'. If you could channel that energy into something positive like sports, we'd make one large step towards a better world.


How about getting a decent education, working hard, and trying to better yourself and those around you by fighting for communism?

The real waste of time - a waste of life - is to live for no reason at all. Communism, among other things, gives my life purpose. Does your life have a purpose, or do you just live out of inertia, wasting time on meaningless petty things until the day you die and are forgotten?I'm still unsure about communism. The fact that basically all experiments with the system failed is kind of sobering. And I wouldn't say your life has more meaning to it than mine or anybody else's. You're just more sure of what you want the future to look like. And I'm kind of skeptical.

[Killfacer]

Edric that really is pathetic. I dont think Marx invented communism as a crutch to make you think your life wasnt a complete waste. Thats pretty much what religious people say aswell; I dont need a crutch, im perfectly happy without it. I dont have to cling on to the stupid notion that my life means something, i can just enjoy it.

[Dean]

You would have to be the dumbest motherfucker in the entire world to think that Gaza was worse than a concentration camp.

I'd rather live in Gaza then in Bergen-Belsen 7 days out the week and twice and Sundays.

And anyone who says differently is either lying or is too fucking stupid to bother with.

I don't throw around the A-word too often, but this is anti-semitism plain and simple.

You should be ashamed.

I honestly don't think its anti-semitism. It is bullshit, but jugding by the string of apparently stalinist, sexist and proto-fascist posts Sky has made (with a lot of other outlandish assertions) I think its ignorant extremism, not bigotry. Bigotry is claiming that a race / group of people don't have the right to live in the region, which is what some people are saying in this thread.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Edric that really is pathetic. I dont think Marx invented communism as a crutch to make you think your life wasnt a complete waste. Thats pretty much what religious people say aswell; I dont need a crutch, im perfectly happy without it. I dont have to cling on to the stupid notion that my life means something, i can just enjoy it.
Wait, you mean your life is a complete waste, and you don't want anyone telling you otherwise? Wow, that's really sad. At least you can count yourself lucky for being able to enjoy life - most people in the world can't do that, you see, because they are living under a crushing burden of capitalist exploitation.

Far be it from me to try to take away your luxury of being a self-absorbed idiot with a meaningless life, though. Please carry on.


No, of course they're not on the brink of destruction, but I do think that multinational countries create more problems for themselves. I don't think that Norway has the same inner city-suburb disparity that the US or Brazil has. It's easier to divide the working class when there's visible differences between them, whether they be ethnic or religious. Even a fairly tolerant society like New Zealand still stomps all over Maoris. The only way to combat this is through (unbiased) education.
Yes, multinational countries do have problems, and they do make it easier for capitalists to divide the working class, but like you said, the solution is education and tolerance, not setting up a world of homogenous nation-states. Homogenous nation-states may have less internal problems, but they will have a much greater tendency to go to war with each other, and they have serious difficulty coping with immigration. External enemies are just as good as internal ones for dividing the working class.


I'd definitely agree with you here. Although I still believe that humans, with all their good intentions, still divide themselves in 'tribes'. If you could channel that energy into something positive like sports, we'd make one large step towards a better world.
People will always divide the world between "us" and "them", true, but this does not have to lead to separation and war (though it may still lead to sporadic violence). Take British football teams for example. They each have their hardcore fans, and sometimes the hardcore fans of different teams will start a fight. But they could never fight wars, or commit crimes against humanity, or institute apartheid or any other form of entrenched discrimination in society. I don't think we will ever completely get rid of "tribal violence", but I think under a global communist system it can be limited to the kind of sporadic fights you see between football fans.


I'm still unsure about communism. The fact that basically all experiments with the system failed is kind of sobering. And I wouldn't say your life has more meaning to it than mine or anybody else's. You're just more sure of what you want the future to look like. And I'm kind of skeptical.
Perhaps "meaning" isn't the right word. "Purpose" is better. I can say my life has more purpose - though, of course, it is not yet clear whether I will manage to achieve that purpose. Having a goal means you run the risk of failure, but it is better, I think, than not having a goal at all.

Yes, yes, we've failed in the past. But so what? We can learn from those mistakes. And it is better to fail than not try at all. No one ever said class struggle was easy, or quick, or a simple matter of us versus them. It is none of those things. I am completely convinced I will not live to see communism. I'm not even sure I will live to see socialism. But I have full confidence that others will, and that's the only thing that matters. In the end, it's a matter of hope. Having hope for the future is a pre-requisite for being a communist.

[Killfacer]

I'm a self absorbed idiot? Your the one who really wants their life to mean something (even though it clearly doesnt and your brief stay on this earth will have zero impact on anything), just because i dont need a religion or a poltical ideology to cling onto in the vague hope that my life may mean something, it does not mean that i dont do charitable things. I know my life is unlikely to make a major impact on the world at large (unless i kill hundreds of people or do something amazing like become the fastest man ever which is pretty unlikely for both me and you edric), but neither are many other peoples lives. Marx did not invent communism for you to use it in the same way you use christianity, as a crutch because your too pathetic to live your life as yourself.

[luxemburg89]

The situation in Gaza is far more tragic than the crimes of the Nazis because there has not been justice of any kind reached by the long suffering Palestinian people who have been robbed of everything they've ever had.


Far more tragic?? You're ridiculous. There is no measurement of atrocity or pain, no comparison. Their suffering is of another generation, the one that follows the power vacuums after WWII, and differs totally to Nazi Germany. It is good you feel for the palestinians, but to say it is worse than the holocaust is an insult to all the dead, to the people in Israel who lived through the horror of the extermination camps.

Understand this once and for all. There is a polarisation happening where the left, whilst appalling getting involved in reactionary religious disputes, is being drawn into national conflicts. The people of Israel are not to blame, Israel's army is to blame, but is Israel as a state to blame? Perhaps, but Britain and the USA are the root of the problem really. This generation of Israelis have been born in the middle east, as far as they are concerned it is their homeland. If you want to attack anyone, attack America and Britain but leave the holocaust for now, you clearly have little or no understanding of it.