HMMM yeah... why communism?

[Americana]

What is so good about Communism?? or Socialism?? after all, in Soclialism Leninism and Anarchism is in the same family? what the fuck... im confused. Why should i change my ways from democracy, capitalism, to communism, or whatever you call yourselves. And by the way, if you dont like democracy and capitalism, then why do you live in a country with it? go where you belong. and dont shit on my hapiness.

[peaccenicked]

I dont want to shit on your happiness.
I just want to let you know if you want to learn about communism, do not go in with any assumptions about it.
Democracy is indespensible to socialism.
The Stalinist states were only socialist in name.
The same way Nixon was an honest President.
ie not at all.

[Stormin Norman]

New guy,

Anarchy, by definition, is not in the same class as socialism and communism. If you want a good explanation as to why you should not be a communist, I would refer you to my post under Groupthink. There is also a explanation of the theory and the many contradictions within it posted a few pages in, under "My odd little description of capitalism". I refer everyone who asks that question to that post, because I am proud. In addition, there are many other devout capitalist in this forum that have provided great answers to your question. Dive in and read. If you are a level headed individual, you will reach the proper conclusion. Good luck in your search for truth!

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 5:24 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[ID2002]

I would go with Socialism...many European country are socialist and do very well Economically.

[Stormin Norman]

Hah! Prove it.

[American Kid]

Everybody (you know who you are........) be nice to this guy. Give him a chance----- and give him an honest answer to his question (I'd like one myself).

(new guy, ignore Peaccenicked. He's the biggest facist here. Seriously. If he had his way, you wouldn't be here. I wouldn't, Stormin' Norman wouldn't, none of us. Oh, and I'm not talking about this "web site" either :) )

Have fun.

-AK

[pixie]

I'm here to learn about socialism and capitalism.
There are still a lot of things unclear about socialism/capitalism for me, but i have come to a conclusion that socialism has got its good points and capitalism... well i don't see good in a system that promotes differences in classes/"races"/sexes.
I'd rather live in a system where we are all equal, not being owned by a bunch of "upper-class" pricks.
And why we don't move to a socialist country?

First of all a lot of us are too young (I'm 15) so moving to a different country isn't really an option for us.

Then there is the fact that how could there be a revolution without people in the country backing it up.
If everyone lived in his own country we would live in a fucking utopia, well we don't so we should try to make the best of our situation by not discriminating eachother, and not being owned by the elite.



(Edited by pixie at 6:30 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Americana on 5:12 am on Aug. 4, 2002
What is so good about Communism?? or Socialism?? after all, in Soclialism Leninism and Anarchism is in the same family? what the fuck... im confused. Why should i change my ways from democracy, capitalism, to communism, or whatever you call yourselves. And by the way, if you dont like democracy and capitalism, then why do you live in a country with it? go where you belong. and dont shit on my hapiness.


you are a very misinformed person.

First of all democracy is a system by which laws and officials are elected therefore any political system can have democracy.

Second don't tell me where to live, this is my country also, I'm allowed to disagree about how its run.

You are very ignorant of socialism and probably are baseing this on something you read in either a school history book or something someone told you.

I suggest you look at socialism in more depth before you make a decision.

There are several types of socialism.

I am a democratic socialist. I suggest you look that up first and try not to look at a site that is biased towards capitalism.

Because to make a fair judgement you must look at it from both sides.

read more about the different types of socialism

[Brian]

Quote: from Americana on 5:12 am on Aug. 4, 2002
What is so good about Communism?? or Socialism?? after all, in Soclialism Leninism and Anarchism is in the same family? what the fuck... im confused. Why should i change my ways from democracy, capitalism, to communism, or whatever you call yourselves. And by the way, if you dont like democracy and capitalism, then why do you live in a country with it? go where you belong. and dont shit on my hapiness.
Your not just confused, your very confused.

(Edited by Brian at 12:50 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[komsomol]

I choose Libertarian International Communism, three elements of my ideology.

I am Communist as I want a classless society resulting from various reforms designed to give the workers in a means of production control instead of a single owner. Communism would also create a balanced wealth distrobution across the area of land it was implimented in as every means of production and retail would be an independent small buisness, investing back into the local are rather than into a central body of a corporation. Similarily, Communism will make the Country more self-sufficient, Nationalising or fragmenting outlets of corporations implanted during pre-revolutionary times.

I am an Internationalist as I feel no National pride, since usually the focus of National pride is not something National such as a war effort like that seen in the world wars but much more often that of some individual(s) in sporting events or some military countrymen completeley detached and oblivious to your existence, mereley flying the banner of a Nation. I realize that I like people from different cultures more than some people from my own, therefore I care for people from every culture equally.

I am Libertarian as I realize the injustice of being told what to do by people detached from you. I believe in the need for individual freedom, the freedom of religion without percecution also. The vast bulk of modern people are Liberal minded. If the Liberal people of the world were exposed to news of Religous percecution in a state which had implimented a Communst ideal it would damage the cause for world revolution.

As far as Democracy is concerned, it would have to be postponed till after the dust had settled from the revolution, in other words there would need to be a short period of dictatorship to introduce the most fundamental reforms and attain stability. Having said this, the people always are responsible for thier leader as they have the power to overthrow him, thier inaction to the regime of a dictator is showing thier approval.

[Anonymous]

Hummmm why capitalism?

What is good on fake american democracy,and capitalism? Why should i exchang all my intelligence and my libertys to capitalism or that shit you live with? Go on go eat a Burger at Mcdonalds, drink a Coke, get fat adn pledg allience to the flag wile your prist abuses you from behind!

[Americana]

Alrighty. I'm starting to figure this out a little. But still why would you want a classless society. ANSWER THIS FIRST, what if YOU started a company (under free enterprise in a capitalist nation) that took off and YOU started to make millions.. don't tell me you'd give it to a government that would take it and distribute it to other people that didnt do shit to help you with it...
by the way, thanks for the replies. i REALLY want to learn more about this stuff. and not have backwards views. thanks again!

[PunkRawker677]

Well, in this scenario if i had a company which made millions (and the company made it, not ME, unless i was the sole employee) then i would rightfully split the profit equally amongst the employees because they are the people who "materialized" the product which gave me profit and their labor deserves the higher consideration. Just cause you assembled the people together to work for you doesn't mean that you deserve the majority of the fruits of THEIR labor.

[Americana]

AND ANARCHIST, what the hell. "go to mcdonalds, drink a coke, and get fat?" thats a BIG generalization towards the American people. Not everyone in the USA is fat, wealthy, and powerful. JUST LIKE other nations we have problems with the government. JUST LIKE other nations we have poor people. JUST LIKE other nations, we have problems with everyday life. BUT UNLIKE OTHER NATIONS we pour millions of USdollars a day into poor undeveloped countries and help other countries out in wartime. AND DONT SAY ITS IN THE INTEREST OF THE US TO FIGHT A WAR FOR SOMEONE ELSE, BUT YOU DOO HAVE TO PICK A SIDE TO FIGHT DONT YOU??

[Lardlad95]

In Democratic socialism private buisness is allowed.

The government just owns the major industries (communication, transportation, energy, water, etc.)

So technically you would be able to own a buisness

[Americana]

lard, thanks for bringing that to light i wasnt sure if you could own priv business or not. thats good! but still, communications and energy? couldnt the government just jack the prices as high as they want for benefit of themselves? and by the way when i meant start the company, i meant, yes you have employees that share the wealth, but i mean the homeless people that dont even know how to spell "I" would you split your profit with them too??

[PunkRawker677]

"AND ANARCHIST, what the hell. "go to mcdonalds, drink a coke, and get fat?" thats a BIG generalization towards the American people. Not everyone in the USA is fat, wealthy, and powerful. "
I agree with this. I am an American and i'm not fat, i'm the opposite of wealthy, and i'm as poweful as a dead racoon.

"BUT UNLIKE OTHER NATIONS we pour millions of USdollars a day into poor undeveloped countries"
And once in a while, we place dictatorships there as well, and watch lots of people "disapear"

"and help other countries out in wartime."
Like the vietnamese children?

"AND DONT SAY ITS IN THE INTEREST OF THE US TO FIGHT A WAR FOR SOMEONE ELSE, BUT YOU DOO HAVE TO PICK A SIDE TO FIGHT DONT YOU?? "

No, you don't always have to pick a side. Sometimes you can say "hey, this is none of my fucking business, perhaps i should go fuck over my own people and stop bombing the people of other countries"... you don't always have to get involved. In some instances i can understand, such as the world wars.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Americana on 4:13 am on Aug. 5, 2002
lard, thanks for bringing that to light i wasnt sure if you could own priv business or not. thats good! but still, communications and energy? couldnt the government just jack the prices as high as they want for benefit of themselves? and by the way when i meant start the company, i meant, yes you have employees that share the wealth, but i mean the homeless people that dont even know how to spell "I" would you split your profit with them too??

no you wouldn't pay anyone who didn't work for you.

The government would have no need to jack up prices.

owning communications, energy, oil, etc. would generate more than enough money.

by the same token, why don't companies jack up their prices?


and my apologies for any thread I insulted you in that you may not have read yet, I totally misread your intentions

[PunkRawker677]

We must have posted at the same time, so i will reply to this now. I got pissed at you in other threads but now i can honestly sit here and type with you cause you are one of the few right wingers that arent close-minded. So, here goes:

"couldnt the government just jack the prices as high as they want for benefit of themselves?"
Companies now jack up prices for their personal profits and at the cost to all their consumers because they know they need the products. In a socialist country, the goverment shouldnt be making more than a worker and therefore would not be making any extra money for themselves by jacking up prices.

"but i mean the homeless people that dont even know how to spell "I" would you split your profit with them too??"

If they are working for you, then they obviously know how to do whatever their job is, and therefore yes, they do deserve the profit. All homeless people aren't stupid.

[Americana]

lard lad you are a badass for your nice replies, but you know.. companies jacking up prices, theres more than 1 company that is in the same biz, but theres only one government, so you have competition for low prices, like if we just went to "air america" just like air jamiaca or air france which is the national airline, in the USA though we have airtran, delta, american, united, USAIR, southwest, continental, northwest ETC; they compete for our business so i can get an airfare from atlanta to the bahamas for like 74 dollars, but air america could charge like 38492382 dollars because we have no other choice than buying our own 717 jet!

[PunkRawker677]

"companies jacking up prices, theres more than 1 company that is in the same biz, but theres only one government, so you have competition for low prices, like if we just went to "air america" just like air jamiaca or air france which is the national airline, in the USA though we have airtran, delta, american, united, USAIR, southwest, continental, northwest ETC; they compete for our business so i can get an airfare from atlanta to the bahamas for like 74 dollars, but air america could charge like 38492382 dollars because we have no other choice than buying our own 717 jet! "

Competition doesnt only lead to lower prices. As they lower their prices they usually also lower their worker's working conditions, and their pay.

[EDIT]
as was said before - the goverment would have no need to jack up prices if it was all going back to the people anyways. unlike a CEO where the profit is going back to him.

(Edited by PunkRawker677 at 4:27 am on Aug. 5, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Americana on 4:23 am on Aug. 5, 2002
lard lad you are a badass for your nice replies, but you know.. companies jacking up prices, theres more than 1 company that is in the same biz, but theres only one government, so you have competition for low prices, like if we just went to "air america" just like air jamiaca or air france which is the national airline, in the USA though we have airtran, delta, american, united, USAIR, southwest, continental, northwest ETC; they compete for our business so i can get an airfare from atlanta to the bahamas for like 74 dollars, but air america could charge like 38492382 dollars because we have no other choice than buying our own 717 jet!

THe government really has no need to jack up prices.

Owning dozens of industries wont require them to jack up the prices.

Also if the prices get to high then people wont buy then the government is screwed

[concerned]

Quote: from Americana on 4:13 am on Aug. 5, 2002
lard, thanks for bringing that to light i wasnt sure if you could own priv business or not. thats good! but still, communications and energy? couldnt the government just jack the prices as high as they want for benefit of themselves? and by the way when i meant start the company, i meant, yes you have employees that share the wealth, but i mean the homeless people that dont even know how to spell "I" would you split your profit with them too??


Yes, that is exactly what ends up happening in socialism. You are allowed to start your own company, but the vast majority of your profits are taken away by the government to distribute it to people that do not work and do not contribute.

A socialist system may make things a little bit more equal, but not more fair. Is it fair that the money I produce with my work gets redistributed among people who don't do anything? Hell, no!. Countries with big welfare programs such as Sweden experience constant abuse of this welfare. It results in high levels of unemployment (people either don't want to work or get what is known as "black" jobs, which are jobs that are not officially declared so they don't have to pay taxes. This creates even more inequality and unfairness because the people working black do not pay taxes and get welfare benefits, thus earning twice the salary of people working legally).

[Americana]

rawker and lard, you two are awesome thanks for these replies, and you are totally right about lowering worker conditions, i never thought about that, and government, you can always boycott.. i forgot bout that. but so how does a country go from capitalism for whatever you are for without dying, what happens to all the airlines and communications people? would they just work for the government?

[Americana]

and concerned is sorta right, welfare would eat a country to peices, but still in the united states, we still have welfare problems with mexicans that enter illegally and have 17 kids that they do not care for and make a profit for themselves there fore leeching a nice 70 thou a year from tax payers

[PunkRawker677]

Concerned -

I sure as hell do not support the distribution of wealth to the people who do not work, unless they are seriously disabled or have a god damned good reason not to work. on the same token, the more you work, the more you get.

Americana -

The transition from Capitalism to Socialism doesnt need to be a violent one. Most people on this board support a peaceful transition through democratic means. The people who work in airlines wouldnt lose their jobs, they would just have new managment. (similar to what happens when companies merge or get bought out).

[Americana]

rawk, "more you make (product), more you get (money)" wouldnt quality go down? and could the USA keep the same constitutional individual rights like freedom of speech and religion, or waht, cause castro isnt running a very good program. i would kill myself if i had to live in cuba.

[PunkRawker677]

"rawk, "more you make (product), more you get (money)" wouldnt quality go down? "

I didnt exactly mean it in that context. I meant "the more you work, the more money you get".. not necessarily the more products you make. Sorry, that was my bad.

"and could the USA keep the same constitutional individual rights like freedom of speech and religion, "
Of course Freedom of Speech, religion and press could be kept. I would never fight for a system that suppressed those rights. I don't believe those need to be on paper. Those should be rights everyone should have no matter what economic system they live under.

"or waht, cause castro isnt running a very good program. i would kill myself if i had to live in cuba."

I lived in Cuba, and no Castro's "program" isn't very great concerning free speech, press, and religion. I wouldn't kill myself if i had to live in Cuba! The culture is great! The music is great! and the food is fantastic!! Cuba is very cultural and i love it. But i don't love Castro.

[Americana]

righto im out, dano5647 aol.

[komsomol]

A classless society would mean true equal opportunities, unlike today where the offspring of upper-class people have more of a chance of being upper class themselves than working class offspring have of becoming upper-class.

The classless society would be merely the result of the reformations giving the workers control of thier jobs, all employees being the collective employer through democratic means.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Americana on 5:12 am on Aug. 4, 2002
What is so good about Communism?? or Socialism?? after all, in Soclialism Leninism and Anarchism is in the same family? what the fuck... im confused. Why should i change my ways from democracy, capitalism, to communism, or whatever you call yourselves. And by the way, if you dont like democracy and capitalism, then why do you live in a country with it? go where you belong. and dont shit on my hapiness.

Don't like democracy? What makes you think that? The reason why I'm communist is that I realize that capitalism cannot coexist with democracy. It becomes a plutocracy, meaning that it is ruled by the wealthiest class. Communism, by definition, is supposed to be a sort of super-democracy, where everyohe is equal, and has the same political and economic power. Now, if you want to use the USSR and China as examples of the system, I would have to say I'd much rather stay in capitalism. But that's just not what we're going for.

I hope you understand, man. Authoritarianism doesn't mix with communism. It becomes faux-communism. And democracy doesn't mix with capitalism. It becomes faux-democracy.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from concerned on 4:37 am on Aug. 5, 2002

Quote: from Americana on 4:13 am on Aug. 5, 2002
lard, thanks for bringing that to light i wasnt sure if you could own priv business or not. thats good! but still, communications and energy? couldnt the government just jack the prices as high as they want for benefit of themselves? and by the way when i meant start the company, i meant, yes you have employees that share the wealth, but i mean the homeless people that dont even know how to spell "I" would you split your profit with them too??


Yes, that is exactly what ends up happening in socialism. You are allowed to start your own company, but the vast majority of your profits are taken away by the government to distribute it to people that do not work and do not contribute.

A socialist system may make things a little bit more equal, but not more fair. Is it fair that the money I produce with my work gets redistributed among people who don't do anything? Hell, no!. Countries with big welfare programs such as Sweden experience constant abuse of this welfare. It results in high levels of unemployment (people either don't want to work or get what is known as "black" jobs, which are jobs that are not officially declared so they don't have to pay taxes. This creates even more inequality and unfairness because the people working black do not pay taxes and get welfare benefits, thus earning twice the salary of people working legally).



Your a dumbass, they don't steal your money. The money you comapny makes goes back into

a) the company

B) the people who work there

Also The government has no need to take your money since they already own industries.

Not to mention the only money you loose is through taxes which you pay in america anyway.

Man get your shit straight before you open your mouth

[Anonymous]

Americana my way! fuck you and your clues wasnt you who didnt want your hapiness spoiled? then shut your big mouth you loser! Yaaaaa Rangers all over!

[Americana]

wow anarchist if you have even read the fucking thread, you would realize that i have changed my point of view... socialism is cool... so fuck you..

[Lardlad95]

Damn people just calm down a little

[Americana]

good idea

[PunkRawker677]

The Anarchist -

no offense to you, but your posts arent exactly filled with intelligence either. Americana has stepped up to the plate and decided to learn before he passed judgement. me and lard spent last night debating with him, and i would say hes learned quite alot since he got here. So, maybe its you who should fuck off and let the less educated people learn something.

[Social Democratic]

I beleive the very idea of the entire left wing is to provide freedom, But it is a commen sight to see cappies mix civil freedom up with economic "freedom".

The two are different-

*Economic "freedom" is known as a free market economy, but it contridicts itself by creating monopolies and economically dis-infrachising the populus!

*Civil freedom is the freedom of life and choice, your personal ideals (not at the expense of the majority) put into action by freedom of speech.A true left wing government supports this to the full.

Communism/socialism/syndicalism allows people to be free of the burden of economics, people are provided with all they need and encouraged to work for the betterment of society.

note: Rejoice comrades, New Zeland has voted a social democratic party for a second time!

[Nateddi]

about castro:

americana, i suggest you research the kind of life cubans have in comparison to other latin american people, and in comparison with what they had before the revolution. you'll be surprised

[PunkRawker677]

Nateddi is right. Castro's dictatorship is not favored by me, but Cuba still is ranking very highly in education and health care. They also have one of the lowest number of infant mortalities and a very high life expectancy.

[concerned]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 9:25 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
Your a dumbass, they don't steal your money. The money you comapny makes goes back into

a) the company

B) the people who work there

Also The government has no need to take your money since they already own industries.

Not to mention the only money you loose is through taxes which you pay in america anyway.

Man get your shit straight before you open your mouth


No, this is not true, I've lived in Sweden and I've had to pay the unbelievably high swedish taxes. Most of the money goes to pay the very large welfare benefits for the unemployed. The unemployment figure being quite high in Sweden.

And wake up, the government does need to take your money away in large amounts, their state controlled companies are not enough to keep up with the huge expenses.

Besides, Sweden is the industrialized country with the highest debt in relation to its GDP. Their debt actually exceeds their GDP.

Sweden is undergoing a tough economical moment and it is trying to cut on the welfare and social programs. The quality of education has gone down dramatically to what it used to be and medicine is not great either. For a simple tonsilitis operation my girlfriend had to wait more than a year and a half (even though she needed it urgently), and that is because she got lucky and somebody cancelled.

Finally average salaries in Sweden after taxes are currently about 1/10th of average salaries in America.

Sweden is still a nice country though. It just would be a heck of a lot nicer if it wasn't for socialism. People in Sweden are mostly hardworking and honest. It just would be great if this honest and hardworking people were able to keep more of their own money, instead of being obligated to share huge parts of it with people that don't have the same hig working morale and don't contribute.

Wherever there is welfare you will always see people trying to get advantage of it in an unfair way. Sweden has been trying to correct their welfare policies, but still have a long way to go.


(Edited by concerned at 5:01 am on Aug. 6, 2002)


(Edited by concerned at 5:04 am on Aug. 6, 2002)

[Americana]

.....

[kidicarus20]

concerned you haven't lived in sweden shut you're fucking mouth. Capitalists always lie about socialists countries they've been to and how bad they were.

I'm not a fucking loser like capitalists, i have talking to people in sweden at a local restaurant once, they said they wouldn't trade swedens system for ours, they virtually have no homeless and their system is doing great. They have health care and a good education with small class sizes, its' the same now as ever, whereas americas education is getting worse, and it has worsened by allowing capitalism in the classroom (channel one, market surveys, etc..).


Also welfare has helped to reduce poverty in this country and of course sweden where things are better off with it


(Edited by kidicarus20 at 5:27 am on Aug. 6, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from kidicarus20 on 5:26 am on Aug. 6, 2002
concerned you haven't lived in sweden shut you're fucking mouth. Capitalists always lie about socialists countries they've been to and how bad they were.

I'm not a fucking loser like capitalists, i have talking to people in sweden at a local restaurant once, they said they wouldn't trade swedens system for ours, they virtually have no homeless and their system is doing great. They have health care and a good education with small class sizes, its' the same now as ever, whereas americas education is getting worse, and it has worsened by allowing capitalism in the classroom (channel one, market surveys, etc..).


Also welfare has helped to reduce poverty in this country and of course sweden where things are better off with it


(Edited by kidicarus20 at 5:27 am on Aug. 6, 2002)



thank you


also concerened who the fuck brought up Sweden? I meant my own personal beliefs.

I never said I want things like in Sweden.

Damn you bring up examples where they aren't needed.

[Anonymous]

How to change from a Capitalist Dumb ass to a socialist in few hours! reed this awsome book writen by americana! (if you really meaned that i suport you if you are just sayng that to shut me up fuck you!)

[PunkRawker677]

He didnt exactly turn from Capitalist "dumbass" to a Socialist. He just admitted he didnt know shit about politics and is being open-minded and is trying to learn.