Deeper meaning?

[mentalbunny]

I'm putting this topic in this forum so I can read some capitalist opinions. I don't really think there is any reason to live but as we're here (or at least I think you're here, the only person I know really exists is me) we may as well make the most of it. I won't balbber too much, you're hear more aobut my opinions over the next few days when I come back and see what people have said.

I'm really interested, do you believe in God? Are we part of some great ineffable game? Is there another planet like ours but where things are different? Is money and power everything, is self gain the most important thing?

Tell me your beliefs and ideas (I'm more of an idea person, if you've ever seen Dogma).

So, let me know. What is our purpose?

[James]

"to make money"

[Anonymous]

First of all, Alanis Morrisette isnt God.

I think we're hear as a sort of warm up for the next big thing.

[Valkyrie]

Maybe one of these guys knows!!!!!


Heaven-or-hell argument ends with shotgun slaying


An argument over who was going to heaven and who was going to hell ended with one Texas man shooting another to death with a shotgun, police said Monday.

The man charged in the slaying is a corrections officer.

Johnny Joslin, 20, was allegedly shot by Clayton Frank Stoker, 21, on Sunday. The two had spent Saturday night bar hopping with two other men in Fort Worth, about 40 miles (65 kilometers) northeast of Godley.

Johnson County Sheriff Bob Alford said a witness who was the designated driver for the group told police the four men were sitting at a table outside a trailer park after their night on the town and began arguing about religion.

The talk became heated when the subject turned to who would go to heaven and who would go to hell.

Stoker said he would settle the argument and went into a house and returned with a shotgun, which he loaded and placed in his mouth, Alford said the witness reported.

"The victim Joslin then took the gun out of Stoker's mouth, saying, 'If you have to shoot somebody, shoot me,"' Alford said, citing the witness report.

The shotgun went off, hitting Joslin in the chest and killing him.

Stoker, a Johnson County corrections officer, has been arrested and charged with first-degree murder, Alford said.


07/30/2002 06:45


Hey Funky Monk,

I like my men on all fours with their head between my legs. Keeps them quiet.



(Edited by Paris at 5:23 pm on July 30, 2002)

[mentalbunny]

well i don't think the meaning is money. i don't think we're aprt of a bigger picture. i think the best we can do is make the most of what we've got and be good to eachother. there's nothing after this life, if it isn't worth it one day i'll jsut end it, there's no point in struggling.

[Mazdak]

God is an invention of man becuase man cannot deal with death.

Religion was invented to explain things before logic and science were "discovered." It is sad that now, as science has disproved most religious things, religion continues to hold back society the way it is. Christianity especially resists anything that is foward thinking. They want to keep the Human race in the dark age when they had power....

There are planets with life on them (on mars there are worm fossils). But we can never be sure, the universe is infinite.

[abstractmentality]

mental bunny:
i know that you asked for the capitalist opinions, but i just had to drop my non-capitalist opinion into this thread.

i am an atheist, and i think that this is it. nothing more, nothing less. we must, as you say, live on this world like there is nothing beyond it. faith is belief in something without or inspite of evidence.

ok, thats enough for right now, im at work, and im not suppossed to be on the computer right now....

Josh

[Capitalist Imperial]

We are just mammals, with a frontal cortex, which gives us the ability to abstract and wonder "why". Kind of ironic. We are merely organisms evolves to tend to the earth. We, like all animals, do some type of "janatorial work", meaning we eat plants, then shit out fertalizer and spread seeds. Some of us are here to clean up the herbavores. All organizms eventually die and again provide the earth with nutrients to start anew. Through this great process, the atmosphere is maintained, keeping the balance between plants producing oxegen and mammas producing carbon monoixide.

We are just janitors, kind of lir the tiny micro-bugs on our eyelashes. Thats all.

[mentalbunny]

well CI you can say that but it doesn't stop humans wanting power. In fact i'm told by my parents you can't fulfill your potential as a human without ambition. I'm not sure how far i agree with that, my ambitions are modest.

abstratmentality: i didn't jsut want capitalists, i wanted everyone's so i could see if there were any differences between the socialists and the capitalists.

I have to admit i hold soem christian values, those of loving your neighbour, in fact even your enemy, and turning the other cheek. But in the modern west we are taught to be selfish.

I know that in relationships i don't have enough self-respect. I'm quite giving but there is a flaw, i expect people to give back as much as i give and they usually don't. I find this all quite interesting.

sorry that was off the subject.

Back to what Mazdak said, i agree, even though there may be no reason to be here i think humans need to invent one.

So what reasons do people give themselves? or do they not do this consciously and live life day to day?

I tend to go from day to day, but with a main goal out there.

[marxistdisciple]

I live to discover, to learn, to improve things for every person. That's it. (And to have a good time if I can)
Power would be great if it meant I could help people with it. Otherwise, I'm not really interested.

[American Kid]

I hope there is a God.

I'd hate to think we die and it's just like turning off a light switch or chopping down a tree.

I don't think people who believe in God are idiots either. I think they're odd, and interesting (CS Lewis being a good example), and also kind of enviable. I'm such a cynic I find it hard to believe in anything these days. If believing in God helps you get out of bed in the morning, if it helps you stay off drugs or stay faithful to your wife or from stealing, then I can't think of a single thing wrong with it.

Of course a lot can go wrong with it. There's nothing more terrifying to me in this country (besides the new "Nelly" single) than the Christian right. They-know-everything. They-have-all-the-answers. They want to control what we watch and listen too, ect.....

They're worse than the communists.

And then there's the Taliban, and any other random war you can think of in the last two thousand years which was fought or started primarily over religion. It's a mighty concept, dangerous to lethal misinterpertation when left to the incompetent, ignorant musings of idiots.

But again, believing alone doesn't make you such. If someone's grandfather dies, and it comforts them to think of him as being in heaven, then rock on. I don't see anything wrong with that. Do what you have to do. I can't think of a single sane person who deals with death "easily". You do what you have to. If believing in the Easter bunny helps with the tears, then let every fucking day be Easter.

But death is the mass equalizer. That's where the main "faith in God" stems from, I think. Either there really is a God, and everything the bible says is true; or as sentient beings aware of our own existence, we're cursed with the inability to picture a world going on without ourselves, and so have created "Him" as a coping mechanism.

There's always that old adage, though:

"There's no atheists in foxholes." For me, that's the litmus test. That's about as profound as it gets. Think about it.

-AK

(Marx apparently didn't give two shits. He couldn't make it to his father's funeral because the ride to Berlin was too long and he had "more important things to do". If that's the pinnacle of intellectual virtouosity, then intellectualism can kiss my catholic ass)

(Edited by American Kid at 3:57 am on Aug. 5, 2002)

[Dynatos]

How can people not believe in any god? It's Imposible that theres no god at all. When you look at everything around you how can you believe that the universe just apeared or that the laws of physics just wrote themselfs. If nothing created The universe then how was it created? I know allot of you will talk about the big bang but how did it start if nothing started it or how did it get there in the first place.
Nothing+Nothing = Nothing

[Americana]

Who created god, did he create himself? right. For humans, understanding the universe will be difficult. our brains may not even be capable of handling the answer. to know the universe you have think past 4 dimentions, try 57 dimentions, matter creation, matter destruction, matter multiplications, energy to matter, time, space, momentary time, timeless events, list goes on. theres way more than the dimention you know, you just cant perceive them, therefor, ""they dont exist""

[Dynatos]

no God didn't creat himself. God was allways there but he wasnt there since the begining of his 'life' or till the end of his 'life'. Hes just there. God created time when he created the univerce. there is no time in heaven or where god 'lives' so there is no begining or end. I believe there are other dimentions and heaven is the only one aside from this one.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Dynatos on 6:11 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
no God didn't creat himself. God was allways there but he wasnt there since the begining of his 'life' or till the end of his 'life'. Hes just there. God created time when he created the univerce. there is no time in heaven or where god 'lives' so there is no begining or end. I believe there are other dimentions and heaven is the only one aside from this one.

yeah, that makes a lot of sense, what a simple explanation.

"He was just always there and that is that!"

Personally, I expect more than that.

Science has done more for man in the last 100 years than religion has done in 10,000, bottom line.

[vox]

"Science has done more for man in the last 100 years than religion has done in 10,000, bottom line."

That's quite a value judgment CI makes, isn't it? One is left wondering, though, why he thinks the purpose of religion is the same as the purpose of science.

See, folks? This is what I mean when I talk about critical reading skills. He compares two very different things and ties them together using an unexplained value judgment. I expect this from right-wingers, of course.

vox

[Dynatos]

Science has done more for man in the last 100 years than religion has done in 10,000, bottom line.

Well CI that may be true but the fact is that God dose exist and simply egnoring that isn't the solution.

Every explination is simple when you have the answer.

[Anonymous]

If the universe is everything that exists how then can God exist "outside" of existence? And if time began with the universe then how can their be a "before" the universe? In my opinion the universe is everything in existence curved into a sphere by gravity going in a eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.

The Big Bang:

10^-43 second- Gravity separates as a force.

10^-32 second- Inflation ceases; the Big Bang expansion continues.

10^-11 second- The Electroweak force splits into electromagnetism and the weak force.

10^-4 second- Quarks combine to make protons and neutrons.

100 seconds- Protons and neutrons combine to create helium nuclei.

300,000 years- The universe becomes transparent and fills with light.

1 billion years- Galaxies begin to form.

15 billion years- The present.

10^37 years- The Degenerate era, most of the mass in the universe is locked up in degenerate stars or has been sucked into black holes.

10^38 years- The Black Hole era, the only stellar like objects left are black holes of varying size and mass.

10^100 years- The Dark era, all blackholes have evaporated and there is nothing left but photons, electrons, neutrinos, and positrons. This is probably around the time the "Big Crunch" occurs.

[Dynatos]

ok i think we have diffrent meanings for univers. when i say the univers i dont mean all of existence but only this 'dimension'.

I never said there is a befor the univers. God lives in a timeless heaven therefor he is in the present but the present in heaven is the past present and futur in this universe. look at it like this way: if man1 is traveling in time at the same speed as we are right now, and man2 standing beside him and hes also traveling in time but at a speed only ¼ the speed of man1. man1 can see what man2 is doing but hes looking at man2's futur and man2 is looking at man1's past. therefor each man exists in 2 places at once. If man2 where to comletly stop advansing in time man2 would be able to see man1's past present and futur because he would be existing in every moment of time.

the big crunch may not happen. If there is not enough matter to constitute a Big Crunch, the universe will continue to expand forever.
If there is a very specific amount of matter in the universe which is exactly what is needed to stop the expansion, but not quite enough to make it contract, the universe will expand to a certain size and then remain at that size forever.
Only if there is enough matter within the universe, the effects of gravity will eventually slow down the expansion of the universe until it reaches a maximum point when it will begin to contract. If this happens, the universe will get smaller and smaller and would eventually end in the same tiny point where it first began. This would result in an event opposite to the Big Bang the Big Crunch in which everything will be squashed! :(

[Supermodel]

I'm not confessing to left or right beleifs by answering this post, just weighing in.

Mentalbunny you are not alone. In fact there are way too many people and there are quite a few where I work that I wish would go away.

I'm really interested, do you believe in God?

I really can't add much to Dynatos' first response. I've created life and I've seen death and I am sure that God exists. You have to really look around, none of this could just pop up.

Are we part of some great ineffable game?

Yes, the game is survival of the fittest. However, the world's definition of fittest changes from physically strongest, to biggest tribe, to most money, to most weapons, to best immune system. I guess the winner is the most "well rounded"

To some extent I believe that on an individual level the aim of the game is to make the most positive difference in the world.

Is there another planet like ours but where things are different?

There are many worlds, many universes, and many parallel worlds and universes. How arrogant of us if we beleive that we are alone in the universe.



Is money and power everything, is self gain the most important thing?

Money is nothing without good health. Health is nothing without mental health and lack of depression. The most important thing is that you live each day (OK most days) in pursuit of somehting you believe to be worthy. Most of the time I believe the most important thing is raising children. When my kids drive me mad the most important thing is ignoring the kids and posting on the internet.

Tell me your beliefs and ideas (I'm more of an idea person, if you've ever seen Dogma).

My number one global idea is that the country that has the smallest relative gap between richest and poorest is the best. All nations should aim to decrease the gap. In years when the gap increases, unrest increases and poverty results. In years when the gap decreases, equity is closer to reality. This can be applied on a national basis, then continental then global.

I also beleive that if women ran the world, we would have peace at last. Not that women can't fight, but they rarely find much to fight about.



So, let me know. What is our purpose?

We are here to increase the human experience. You must move from sphere to sphere to increase your experience. All humans should travel and experience life as others do. All humans should learn how to plant , fish or hunt to survive. All humans should know how to build shelter. All humans should know basic hygiene, health and first aid. All humans should learn to question everything they've been told.

[Americana]

yay i love hearing opinions on this, that explanation of events in the universe was good... you gotta wonderthough, does time exist regardless of matter?

[Anonymous]

Prove God exists. How do you know it lives in a "timeless heaven" how do you even know anything at all about it.

It can't be omnipotent:

Can an omnipotent entity X, create a rock that X cannot lift? If yes, then X is not omnipotent, if no, then X is not omnipotent. Therefore X is not omnipotent.

How can an entity be God if its not omnipotent?

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 11:56 am on Aug. 6, 2002)


(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 11:57 am on Aug. 6, 2002)

[Dynatos]

well i learned this from the popes teachings.

The omnipotent has created a rock it cannot lift. The devil. But that dosn't mean there is no omnipotent. it just means the omnipotent was divided into two (but still remain infanite) and there is now two Omnipotents that cancel each other out. Omnipotent is infanite and infanite is everything and anything so lets say its 50. if it's divided into 2 they become 25 or become equil.
25-25=0. they can't effect each other.

[Americana]

dark capital,
i didnt say anything about a god..
infact.. i dont hold religion, and im not pruod of it...
I just dont care about religion.
you all think capitalism is wrong???
look at the effects of religion on some people..
then evaluate how bad capitalism is

[PunkRawker677]

Americana.. Just cause one is worse than the other doesnt make the first one good. Crack is better then heroine. Should everyone go get some crack?

[Americana]

good way to look at it haha

[Tkinter1]

every species is born for one purpose; to live and procreate. If we as humans didn't have some divine purpose, why would our logical thinking bodies design unnecesary extras(love sexual pleasure etc..), unless there was an intervention of some kind.

I guess we will all find out the truth when we succumb to our inevitable death:)

[Nateddi]

>>every species is born for one purpose; to live and procreate. If we as humans didn't have some divine purpose, why would our logical thinking bodies design unnecesary extras(love sexual pleasure etc..), unless there was an intervention of some kind.

I believe that "love" and "sexual pleasure" are what consitute true human nature. I agree that every species' goal is to live and procreate.

This strikes me for a reason i cannot quite grasp as some sort of a pro-capitalist argument. Is it just me?

[Tkinter1]

What invented human nature?

for the time being forget my capitalist standpoint

[Nateddi]

Love and sexual desire isn't invented, all leftists will agree on that (i hope :confused:)

[Tkinter1]

Then how did it get there?

[Nateddi]

You posted there out of random.

This was originally a scientific/mathemetic discussion about religion, later evolved into capitalism and religion thanks to Americana's comment, which was only one comment before your post on sex and love. There was never a human nature discussion. You misinterpreted this thread.

[Tkinter1]

gotcha, i neglected to read all the pages before i posted. sorry bout that

[Nateddi]

Now that I think about it, I didn't read anything either, i only bothered to do that after you asked me why human nature was debated.

[Brian]

So, let me know. What is our purpose?

To build a stainless steel 1km wide, 1km long, 1km tall duck.Ducks are art, God put us all on earth to build a huge steel duck.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from vox on 6:30 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
"Science has done more for man in the last 100 years than religion has done in 10,000, bottom line."

That's quite a value judgment CI makes, isn't it? One is left wondering, though, why he thinks the purpose of religion is the same as the purpose of science.

See, folks? This is what I mean when I talk about critical reading skills. He compares two very different things and ties them together using an unexplained value judgment. I expect this from right-wingers, of course.

vox


Vox Vox Vox,

Apparently it is you who needs to brush up on your reading comprehension.

I acknowledge the difference beteween religion and science as well as the similarities. First and foremost, both religion and science attempt to define the world around us as well as the world's origins, with the former also extending its purpose to defying mortality and helping to establish order among populations. I'm sure an intellectual such as yourself will concede that this is true.

Where they differentiate is that religion seems to give unqualified absolutes, seemingly out of nowhere except ancient text, based on faith exclusively, and suggests a pretense of how one must live his/her life, as well as suggesting metaphysical consequnces for not following religious edict. Religion claims to know "why" things happen and what our pupose is in this universe as an absolute, again, based on nothing except words written by our fellow mammals anytime from thousands of years ago to present day (in the form of currently emerging cults and belief systems).

Science offers no such pretense. It acknowledges what we don't know as much as what we do know, and it offers no claim as to suggest how humanity should behave. It offers merely an explanation of the physical phenomena that comprise the universe. It explains what we know about matter, and energy, and the relation between the two. Most importantly, it offers all knowledge based on empirical evidence, not faith. It suggests nothing in the way of how mankind should behave or believe. It discusses "how" things happen, not "why". Again, I reiterate, it demands no speccific behavior or consequences for conductiong you life in a certain fashion (except, of course, when said behavior invloves the laws of physics). And, again, it makes no suggestion that it is an all encompassing, complete guidebook to existence. It clearly suggests that we have much, much,much more to learn.

So, in one sense, of course I am comparing 2 different things vox. In another sense, I am comparing 2 belief systems, seeking to do similar things in the context of the explanation of existence.

[Brian]

Oh dear, this can only end in tears...



I was brought up in a pretty easy going, but none-the-less Catholic household, but by the time I was in my mid teens I'd denounced any religious beliefs I may have had. Up until recently I've been the adamant Materialistic Realist, but lately, I think I've gone beyond even having realism (often called atheism by religious folks) as my way of thinking about the world. I won't bore you with my ponderings but in brief, the human mind is only an organic computer with a finite processing ability, which limits us to what we can physically comprehend. Now the point of science is to break up reality into chunks that our minds can handle (hence the laws of physics, relativity etc.) whilst religion attempts to adhere reality to a static doctrine. What I am trying to say is that being just a small part of a very large (and to our experience, unique) entity prevents us from viewing 'the big picture' if only for the fact that we have nothing to compare it to (the basis of all scientific theorem) as well as the fact that in our current state, we wouldn't be able to comprehend the entire scheme of reality anyway.

[canikickit]

It's not important what started the world. Its all bullshit, everyone's wrong and everyone's right. The whole thing is beyond the realm of human comprehension. Music happens to be my Mr. Business.