The columbia plan - In the words of Chomsky ha ha

[peaccenicked]

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/chomskyjune2000.htm
Really you capi truth seekers are so funny. You criticise the source of information, but say nothing. The ''guest'' who wants to argue about Columbia at least tries to bring out what he supposes are facts.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:47 am on July 30, 2002)

[Guest]

Hey there peacenicked. You still don't get it do you, is Colombia, not Columbia. Maybe you are confused with Columbia, South Carolina , or with British Columbia up in Canada.

Well I see you are back into your habits of posting other people's articles. I must say that at least this last one wasn't that far away from reality as the other ones you have posted. Not that it was accurate, but at least it had tiny traces of truth.

Yes, the US did aided Colombia with 1.6 billion dollars to fight the terrorism we have been subjected to. But no, you are dead wrong if you think most of the violence comes from the paramilitaries. The paramilitaries are self defense forces that were created as a consequence of the abuses and atrocities of the guerrillas. Farmers joined together to defend themselves and their property, and to have the protection that the state was unable to give them. Every human being has the legal right to defend themselves and what is theirs.

HRW has no idea what is really happening in Colombia, heck they don't even have an office in Colombia!. The guerrillas have done a fine job in spreading a web of lies in naive European countries. They even managed to get a book published with very distorted facts about Colombia in Europe, blaming everything on the paramilitaries, and in which the appear as almost saints. They published this book in all European languages except Spanish, I wonder why.

HRW has been very naive, as has been the Europeans, when it comes to the Colombian conflict. Since they don't have representation in Colombia they really have no way of tracking what is really going on and often rely on very unreliable sources often more interested in making a political statement than on telling the truth about our reality.

Our reality is that people in Colombia fear the guerrillas, not the paramilitaries. If you have nothing to do with the guerrillas and don't support them in any way you really have nothing to worry about with the paramilitaries. The paramilitaries do not kidnap civilians for money.
The guerrillas on the other hand attack pretty much everyone. Not even the poor are safe of the guerrillas, as a matter of fact most of its victims are quite poor, since they are often also the most vulnerable and defenseless.

[The Guest]

Peaccenicked doesn't like individuals defending their property rights from masses. That is one of the concepts he told me was not relavent.

[IzmSchism]

I believe the AUC is just as rougue as the FARC, they have their own inetntions of ruling Colombia, Uribe seems to have opened talks with the AUC, more than Pastrana, yet, when little kids are getting shot in Meddelin by both sides, I find it hard to see any distiction between the good and the bad, it all just seems ugly.

[Guest]

IzmSchism, I know you will be going to Colombia soon because I remember you talking about it in another post. You will be able to get a first hand look at the problem, that will be great. Try to talk with all kinds of people so you can get a better picture of how colombians really perceive the conflict. Have fun in Colombia, amigo!

Yes I agree with you that both sides seem ugly. I know the paramilitaries are really trying hard to clean up their act though, but it has grown so rapidly in the past decade that it sometimes gets out of control. Carlos Castanno is quite upset about this and is doing his best to denounce and punish the people that give his organization a bad name.

I disagree with you in that AUC has any intentions of ruling Colombia. They don't. Their only purpose of existence is to combat the guerrillas in Colombia. The AUC leaders have promised time and again that if the guerrillas are ever defeated or a peace process with them is ever reached, the AUC will dissolve without any conditions in a matter of days.

The AUC has never attacked the government or government installations or infrastructure. They have never attacked the police or the army either. They always try to avoid as much as possible confrontation with the State, for which they have professed an uttermost respect.

There is no intention in the AUC to rule Colombia, it is merely an anti-guerrilla, anti-terrorist group. The leaders of the AUC created some time ago another parallel group called "los Pepes" which helped authorities track down and kill Pablo Escobar.

It is horrible what you mention about kids getting involved in the conflict. Unfortunately that is our reality. A great percentage of guerrilla's recruits are minors which are taken away by force from their home and from their families to fight a war that they don't even understand. It is really sad.

[andresG]

Guest 168.122.15.208 :
I am waiting for your response in "Guerrillas, drugs and human rights in U.S.- Colombia Policy". I look foward to debating with you.

[peaccenicked]

IF you go about saying the left is responsible for the situation in Colombia. Then you are saying that the right wing is innocent of drug trafficking, that there has been no human right abuses by the US backed government.
Or that the US is in Colombia for humanitarian reasons.You are simply a fucking liar.

[Guest]

The US is not there only for humanitarian reasons. It is there because it is in its own best interest and in the one of Colombia to fight the drug trade and the guerrillas. The guerrillas pose a threat to US interests too.
There have been some human rights abuses by the military, I am not denying that. Not nearly as much as the ones commited by the guerrillas of which there is extensive documentation, it just don't reach as easily the international press (as the ones concerning the militaries do). The guerrillas violate human rights in every possible way every day, and nobody cares, but every time a single case of human rights abuse concerning the military is known, the international press overblows it and makes big headlines about it all over.

[peaccenicked]

I dont believe the US is a humanitarian government. The good it does is far outweighed by the harm.
I still believe you are a liar trying to white wash right wing abuse of human rights.
http://www.amnesty-usa.org/news/2002/colom...ia07262002.html (http://www.amnesty-usa.org/news/2002/colombia07262002.html)