Extremist American Nationalism? [Archive]

Xvall

30th July 2002, 00:42

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:31 am on July 30, 2002
Do not compare american patriotism to nazi fascism! Many of our relatives died fighting Nazis! American patriotism is legitimate, and infringes upon no one!

My great uncle survived in Nazi Germany. And he was BLACK! Isn't that something! In addition, he had an aryan german girlfriend there. I mainly reserve this story to piss off Nazis.

The Guest

30th July 2002, 00:50

Nationalism is another offshot of people who run to a

majority for support. They all feel insecure alone, but

together, as one man said in 1969 about Woodstock "I

don't know what it was but when we all got together I

just felt like we all had great power." The use of force,

or the threat of it, by the majority to stifle the minority is

a plague that has cursed mankind from the beginning. If

Americans would realize that a real patriot is the man

who stands up for himself no matter how

many others try to force him back.

Hattori Hanzo

30th July 2002, 01:01

amen to the guest

Anonymous

30th July 2002, 01:17

Funny stuff i talked with a friend of mine´s well she is american and i criticised america, i gave some proofs of the american war crimes during the Iraq war (NIntendo war) and all she said was: "Fuck you! No one talks that bad of my country! Shit, Shut up! Fuck you again! I never want to see you again!" Welll in short words nationalism in its best!

Anonymous

30th July 2002, 01:20

"the nationalist not only does not disaprove of atrocities commited by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell

Hattori Hanzo

30th July 2002, 02:25

Quote: from the anarchist on 1:17 am on July 30, 2002
Funny stuff i talked with a friend of mine´s well she is american and i criticised america, i gave some proofs of the american war crimes during the Iraq war (NIntendo war) and all she said was: "Fuck you! No one talks that bad of my country! Shit, Shut up! Fuck you again! I never want to see you again!" Welll in short words nationalism in its best!

typical american nationalism

American Kid

30th July 2002, 02:53

What about the crimes committed against America she has the right to defend against?

I heard there was a lot of scuttlebut over some "incident" involving an airliner and a skyscraper sometime last September.

Apparently some folks were jumping off it as a result. Ninety stories, hm. I think I'd want to fight back in that instance too.

Any way I could.

-AK

Hattori Hanzo

30th July 2002, 02:57

"What about the crimes committed against America she has the right to defend against?"

And "she" has

"I heard there was a lot of scuttlebut over some "incident" involving an airliner and a skyscraper sometime last September."

I was as touched as you, AK

"Apparently some folks were jumping off it as a result. Ninety stories, hm. I think I'd want to fight back in that instance too."

yeah, but not like this

"Any way I could."

listen to yourself. nationalism cripples world understanding and acceptance

"-AK"

ok kid

American Kid

30th July 2002, 03:06

It is nationalism. Fuck it. I'm an American and when my fellow Americans are mass-murdered innocently at work, it "touches" me.

We have "fought back". And we will continue until we find cyclops the one-eyed mullah and that prick Bin Laden.

Remember, we would've been done "fighting" a long, long time ago, if the mighty Taliban would've just given us what we asked for, when we asked for it, when they had it. But no, they knew "everything" and the infidel Americans weren't going to boss them around and if they ever attacked Afganistan they would crumble, it was God's will. Omar had God's pager number, and was giving him constant updates.

Well fuck them. I read Mullah in the paper back in October, he said something to the effect of, "There are two words of honor which have been sworn to me: One is Allah, who says we are in his graces and under his protection and the American infidels will be destroyed; the other is Bush, who says 'there is no where on earth where I can't find you'. We will see who means it."

Well so far, it's Bush. After all, he's really going to great lengths to stay hidden, isn't he? Oh, just a matter of time.

My cousin was in a sub in Bahrain when we started shooting rockets in October. I asked him to me back a Taliban wallet if he could. And I wasn't talking about leather.

-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 3:07 am on July 30, 2002)

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 03:16

How many innocent Afghani deaths do you find acceptable before they get Bin Laden assuming they ever do.?

Lardlad95

30th July 2002, 03:22

CI was the patriotism legitamate when americans started discriminating (something they are still doing) against Muslims and people from the middle east.

Americans claimed they were being patriotic

I had a very good freind from Yemen and after the WT Attacks her and her family were harresed by people who were being "patriotic"

American Kid

30th July 2002, 03:28

But they WERE NOT being patriotic, Lardlad.

They might've said they were, bu to believe that, is to give a certain amount of credability to their arguments. In that case, you poor friend WAS suspect.

Don't believe a word what they say. The idiots with the bricks and the baseball bats. What happened to your bud sucks, dude.

-AK

ComradeJunichi

30th July 2002, 03:30

It's okay to kill thousands of innocent people, but if someone attacks you its not?

Lardlad95

30th July 2002, 03:32

Quote: from American Kid on 3:28 am on July 30, 2002
But they WERE NOT being patriotic, Lardlad.

They might've said they were, bu to believe that, is to give a certain amount of credability to their arguments. In that case, you poor friend WAS suspect.

Don't believe a word what they say. The idiots with the bricks and the baseball bats. What happened to your bud sucks, dude.

-AK

bud? It was a girl...a girl I like..bud sounds kinda weird reffering to her.

I know I'm saying that what the majority defines as Patriotism usualy isn't

Hattori Hanzo

30th July 2002, 15:06

"It is nationalism. Fuck it. I'm an American and when my fellow Americans are mass-murdered innocently at work, it "touches" me."

as it does me

"We have "fought back". And we will continue until we find cyclops the one-eyed mullah and that prick Bin Laden."

and how many innocents will die in the process?

"Remember, we would've been done "fighting" a long, long time ago, if the mighty Taliban would've just given us what we asked for, when we asked for it, when they had it. But no, they knew "everything" and the infidel Americans weren't going to boss them around and if they ever attacked Afganistan they would crumble, it was God's will. Omar had God's pager number, and was giving him constant updates."

what?

"Well fuck them. I read Mullah in the paper back in October, he said something to the effect of, "There are two words of honor which have been sworn to me: One is Allah, who says we are in his graces and under his protection and the American infidels will be destroyed; the other is Bush, who says 'there is no where on earth where I can't find you'. We will see who means it.""

that's rediculous of him to say

"Well so far, it's Bush. After all, he's really going to great lengths to stay hidden, isn't he? Oh, just a matter of time."

mabey

"My cousin was in a sub in Bahrain when we started shooting rockets in October. I asked him to me back a Taliban wallet if he could. And I wasn't talking about leather."

ok?

"-AK"

ok kid

"(Edited by American Kid at 3:07 am on July 30, 2002)"

you'd think you could get some of the typos out through editing... oh well, i never edit

American Kid

30th July 2002, 15:43

I used to edit a lot more..........but not anymore. I'm off to work Lad (and HH), we'll continue this this evening.

another gratuitous message brought to you from:

-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 3:45 pm on July 30, 2002)

Hattori Hanzo

30th July 2002, 17:12

Quote: from American Kid on 3:43 pm on July 30, 2002
I used to edit a lot more..........but not anymore. I'm off to work Lad (and HH), we'll continue this this evening.

another gratuitous message brought to you from:

-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 3:45 pm on July 30, 2002)

ok:)

Mazdak

30th July 2002, 23:49

I know people who like the taliban, however, when i heard what they did to those buddhist statues, it turned me away from them completely. I never actually supported them, but i felt they didnt deserve what was being done.

And nationalism is disgusting. i am so sick of seeing american flags and hearing "how dare you not right about the policemen who died on 9/11 in your report on heroes."

And Comrade Junichi- I have been referring to the US as the 4th reich for quite some time. I must say, i agree completely with you.

Linksradikaler

31st July 2002, 14:36

First of all, let me ask: CAN ANYONE ON THIS BOARD SPEAK ENGLISH? So much gibberish!

That said, let me also say that I think there is a difference between "patriotism" and "nationalism."

Patriotism is simply a feeling of pride in the accomplishments, character and culture of the country in which one grows up or lives. No harm, no foul. Fly a flag, sing a song. Patriotism doesn't involve goose-stepping into a neighboring country and shooting people.

Nationalism, on the other hand, is a more sinister force. This is where patriotism starts taking steroids and wrapping its hands in carpet tape. Nationalism is an expansionist philosophy, where patriotism is more protectionist. Nationalism is chauvinism, aggression.
More succinctly, I think nationalism is militarized patriotism.

I am a patriot, but not a nationalist. I salute the flag, but I refuse to plant it on the smoking ruins of middle eastern cities.

Lardlad95

31st July 2002, 14:54

>>>>Patriotism is simply a feeling of pride in the accomplishments, character and culture of the country in which one grows up or lives. No harm, no foul. Fly a flag, sing a song. Patriotism doesn't involve goose-stepping into a neighboring country and shooting people.<<<<

Anything anyone accomplishes is an accomplishment.

The US accomplished enslaving millions of people, treating them worse than cattle.

The US accomplished keeping that formely enslaved racee oppressed.

THe US accomplished almost killing off an entire race after stealing their land.

THe US accomplished killing people in several wars they had no buisness being in.

did the US not accomplish what it set out to do? Does patriotism include those accomplishments?

Your description of patritotism is far to general. Anyone can love something the US does even if its inherently evil.

Mac OS Revolutionary

31st July 2002, 15:39

"Nationalism, on the other hand, is a more sinister force. This is where patriotism starts taking steroids and wrapping its hands in carpet tape. Nationalism is an expansionist philosophy, where patriotism is more protectionist. Nationalism is chauvinism, aggression.
More succinctly, I think nationalism is militarized patriotism."

The problem comes when nationalists act in the name of patriotism.

Linksradikaler

31st July 2002, 16:20

"Your description of patritotism is far to[sic] general. Anyone can love something the US does even if its inherently evil."

Well, common sense would tell you that no patriot would love the evil things his nation does, though I suppose the definition of "evil" varies from place to place.

Anyway, I'd say a patriot is idealistic enough to love only the good things his nation does (or has done) and decry the bad things as mistakes.

As a patriot, I think the electroal college was a good idea, as it defends the rural minority from the urban majority. However, as a patriot, I see that the EC system is easily messed with and would like it improved. So a patriot doesn't deny the bad, as a nationalist might. He listens to criticism with an open mind and seeks to make changes.

Shrill whining, however, offends anyone's sensibilties. It is important that criticism be honest and not hypocritical.

Reuben

31st July 2002, 16:25

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:49 pm on July 30, 2002
I know people who like the taliban, however, when i heard what they did to those buddhist statues, it turned me away from them completely. I never actually supported them, but i felt they didnt deserve what was being done.

And nationalism is disgusting. i am so sick of seeing american flags and hearing "how dare you not right about the policemen who died on 9/11 in your report on heroes."

And Comrade Junichi- I have been referring to the US as the 4th reich for quite some time. I must say, i agree completely with you.

What the Taliban did to inanimate statues was =of little significance compared to their despicable treatment of women and Nazi like treatment of HIndus who were forced to wear yellow tags on their clothes

Mazdak

31st July 2002, 17:09

Quote: from Reuben on 4:25 pm on July 31, 2002

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:49 pm on July 30, 2002
I know people who like the taliban, however, when i heard what they did to those buddhist statues, it turned me away from them completely. I never actually supported them, but i felt they didnt deserve

what was being done.

And nationalism is disgusting. i am so sick of seeing american flags and hearing "how dare you not right about the policemen who died on 9/11 in your report on heroes."

And Comrade Junichi- I have been referring to the US as the 4th reich for quite some time. I must say, i agree completely with you.

What the Taliban did to inanimate statues was =of little significance compared to their despicable treatment of women and Nazi like treatment of HIndus who were forced to wear yellow tags on their clothes

yeah, that too is horribly wrong...

And patriotism is just as bad.

Singing songs- "God Bless America"
That right there is like saying (first of all, the US continues to call itself America even though it is only part of the northern continent) God is behind america more than anyone else.

land of the free and home of the brave? That is another laughable phrase. nationalism and patriotism are more or less the same thing.

Linksradikaler

31st July 2002, 20:23

"Singing songs- "God Bless America"
That right there is like saying (first of all, the US continues to call itself America even though it is only part of the northern continent) God is behind america more than anyone else."

Well, you're wrong there. If you actually listen to the words, the song only ASKS, REQUESTS that "God" BLESS America and GUIDE "her." It doesn't even say that America is ALREADY blessed. It just asks for the blessings of "God" to be bestowed on the United States. Do I like the song? No. But it shouldn't be mischaracterized just because you disagree with the sentiments in it.

And flags, songs, posters, etc. are merely SYMBOLS, harmless in themselves. What we must seek to change is the MINDSET that makes displaying an American flag and singing a jingoistic song into an act of aggression.

Imagine, for instance, the same flag flying over two sets of people: Marxists and Neo-Nazis. The American flag, I assure you, means something far different in the hands of a right-wing fascist than it does in the hands of a left-wing Marxist. Think about it.

Linksradikaler

31st July 2002, 20:24

Post Script:

Patriots resisted the Nazis in 1930s Germany. Nationalists joined them. Think about it.

Mazdak

31st July 2002, 21:15

Patriot is being proud of ones country.... so is nationalism. wow, i still dont see the difference. I would never fly the american flag anywhere.

american flag is just a symbol? So is thw swastika, but if i wore a swastika armband intoa synogauge, i assure you the people there wouldnt agree with me.

Linksradikaler

31st July 2002, 22:42

Again, the sentiment behind the symbol is important. The Hindus see the swastika as a good-luck symbol. To them it is sacred. The swastika worn around a Hindu's neck would not (or should not) be offensive to Jews just because some assholes in Germany plastered it on their flag as a symbol of Jew-hating. Get my point.

And one can be a patriot without hurting anyone. Most Americans have things done in their name by the government, things over which they have zero control or understanding...

I refuse to hate the flag because of the jerks who fly it from their tanks.

Lardlad95

31st July 2002, 22:52

Quote: from Linksradikaler on 4:20 pm on July 31, 2002
"Your description of patritotism is far to[sic] general. Anyone can love something the US does even if its inherently evil."

Well, common sense would tell you that no patriot would love the evil things his nation does, though I suppose the definition of "evil" varies from place to place.

Anyway, I'd say a patriot is idealistic enough to love only the good things his nation does (or has done) and decry the bad things as mistakes.

As a patriot, I think the electroal college was a good idea, as it defends the rural minority from the urban majority. However, as a patriot, I see that the EC system is easily messed with and would like it improved. So a patriot doesn't deny the bad, as a nationalist might. He listens to criticism with an open mind and seeks to make changes.

Shrill whining, however, offends anyone's sensibilties. It is important that criticism be honest and not hypocritical.

ok I feel wheer you are coming from. But I have a question, if Patriots so opend minded why the hell do I get alientated and treated like a fuckin terrorist just cuz I"m a socialist.

This is my country also and just because i don't agree with the form of government people tell me to love it or leave.

If a patriot doesn't like the evil things his country does should he have to leave it?

All I'm saying is that alot of time patriotism leads to bad things, if you love this country fine, but some people take it past that.

Linksradikaler

1st August 2002, 14:21

Well, Lard, I'm a socialist, too, and people have been trying to alienate me since I was a teenager. What I do is give them the facts and let them see that my position isn't insane or emotional. If they won't take the time to hear me, fuck 'em.

I give them the cold, hard FACTS about the wealth distribution in this country. I give them the cold, hard FACTS about the history of American foreign entanglements. I give them the cold, hard FACTS about labor history in America. I give them the cold, hard FACTS about health care (and the lack thereof). As a librarian, I'm privy to all KINDS of cold, hard facts that the average TV-watching Joe isn't.

And yet I remain a patriot. Why? Because I firmly believe in the American people. I firmly believe that they will eventually wake up and realize that they are running on a treadmill that is being cranked ever faster by a ruling class.

Americans are (generally) dim-witted, yes. Americans are intellectually lazy, yes. Americans can be hard-hearted and even downright hateful. This is only because the bourgeoisie control education and the media. Americans, being trusting, god-fearing types of people, believe what authority tells them, though they HATE to admit it.

In other words, I am a patriot (and a socialist) because I believe in humanity and humanity's basic goodness. Even the foam-mouthed, red-faced, gun-toting Texan has a mind and a heart within him somewhere. The challenge is to wake them up.

Lardlad95

1st August 2002, 18:15

Hey I don't hate the country I hate the government.

I like most of the people in a America, individually but collectivley the American people are easily influcened assholes.

Socialmalfunction

2nd August 2002, 02:12

i agree with lard. im still a teenager and still being alienated. people come up to me asking me if im ok or insane at skool... sometime they even have their nerve to ask me if im a depressed devil worshipper, why? because i like the color black and i have an upside down flag sewn onto my backpack. i see all this "patriotism" as a big steaming load of horse shit. given a couple more weeks or maybe a month or two and the "american people" will go back to bad mouthing the US. i say it again, its a load of shit to think that all those "patriots" actually give a damn. all they really want is just another reason to make themselves feel superior and another chance to talk shit to someone because of their background, which, by the way, they cant help.

Mazdak

3rd August 2002, 00:53

Quote: from Linksradikaler on 10:42 pm on July 31, 2002
Again, the sentiment behind the symbol is important. The Hindus see the swastika as a good-luck symbol. To them it is sacred. The swastika worn around a Hindu's neck would not (or should not) be offensive to Jews just because some assholes in Germany plastered it on their flag as a symbol of Jew-hating. Get my point.

And one can be a patriot without hurting anyone. Most Americans have things done in their name by the government, things over which they have zero control or understanding...

I refuse to hate the flag because of the jerks who fly it from their tanks.

I think it is a BACKWARDS swastika though. the way it faces matters.