Guerrillas, drugs and human rights in U.S.- Colombia Policy [Archive]

Anonymous

29th July 2002, 21:10

In Mark Bowden's bestseller "Killing Pablo," he writes about the secret war Bush Sr. fought in Colombia to oust Pablo Escobar, a drug lord who had challenged U.S. influence. Officially, the mission was part of the "War on Drugs." The outcome though, as Bowden writes, was the U.S. and the Colombian government effectively went into business with Escobar's drug dealing enemies, and the flow of cocaine coming into the U.S. increased. New documents recently obtained by the National Security Archive, a Washington-based non-profit organization that researches government secrets, show how the current Plan Colombia likewise conceals a larger political goal, the defeat of that country's leftist rebels:

Guerrillas, Drugs and Human Rights in U.S.-Colombia Policy, 1988-2002

Summary and Findings

Edited by Michael Evans
Director, Colombia Documentation Project
3 May 2002

Over the past 15 years, Congress has insisted that U.S. security assistance for Colombia be restricted to combating the drug trade rather than fighting the long-standing civil war, in large part because of human rights concerns. Now, the Bush administration is pressing to lift those restrictions and allow all past, present and future aid to be used in operations against guerrilla forces. But recently declassified U.S. documents show that despite the legal limits and repeated public assurances by government officials, U.S. aid has blurred the lines between counterdrug and counterinsurgency to the point that the U.S. is on the brink of direct confrontation with the guerrillas and ever deeper involvement in Colombia’s seemingly intractable civil conflict. The Bush administration’s proposed aid figure for Colombia in fiscal year 2003 includes nearly $500 million in military and police aid alone.

Obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), the new documents, published today on the web by the National Security Archive’s Colombia Documentation Project, cover the period from 1988 to the present, with particular focus on issues stemming from the provision of U.S. security assistance.

Key points include the following:

· As early as the first Bush administration, the U.S. “Andean Strategy” was developed as a “deal” struck with Andean governments to provide them with counterdrug aid that could also be used against their principal adversary: the guerrillas. (See Volume I)

· Contrary to repeated official statements about “narco-guerrillas,” U.S. intelligence analyses of guerrilla involvement in the drug trade have been decidedly mixed. Some of the documents indicate that guerrillas are intimately involved with narcotics trafficking, while others downplay this association. One CIA report concluded that, “officials in Lima and Bogotá, if given antidrug aid for counterinsurgency purposes, would turn it to pure antiguerrilla operations with little payoff against trafficking.” (See Volume II, especially Documents 24, 33 and 40)

· As counterdrug operations became increasingly dangerous and guerrilla attacks on Colombian security forces more successful in the mid-to-late 1990s, U.S. efforts to reengage the Colombian military in counterdrug operations were pitted against congressional efforts to condition such assistance on human rights performance. The evidence indicates that the State Department had extreme difficulty in identifying existing units that met these conditions. Two Colombian brigades that lost U.S. aid in September 2000 for human rights violations work as part of a joint strike force with antidrug battalions specifically created to qualify for U.S. funds. The new units, according to one document, were “bedding down” with a counterguerrilla battalion reportedly involved with illegal paramilitary groups. Current Bush administration proposals would unfetter all of these units for operations against guerrilla forces. (See Volume III, especially Documents 60, 69 and 70)

· The U.S.-Colombia end-use agreement – intended to guarantee that counterdrug aid be used only in drug producing areas and only for counternarcotics operations – came to be interpreted so broadly as to render its provisions virtually meaningless. Documents indicate that the U.S. eventually redefined the area in which the aid could be used as “the entire national territory of Colombia.” (See Volume III, especially Documents 66 and 68)

· As the end-use agreement was being negotiated with the Colombian defense ministry, a congressional delegation led by Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL) – currently Speaker of the House of Representatives who was then chairman of the House subcommittee on national security – secretly encouraged Colombian military officials to ignore human rights conditions on U.S. aid. (See Documents 52, 54 and 55)

· CIA and other intelligence reports from the late 1990s on the notorious Colombian paramilitaries suggested that the Colombian government lacked the will to go after these groups. A 1998 CIA report found that, “informational links and instances of active coordination between the military and the paramilitaries are likely to continue and perhaps even increase.” (See Documents 53, 61 and 64)

Capitalist Imperial

29th July 2002, 23:50

As a taxpayer, I am just as happy that my $$$ is going to fund combating leftist insurgents as much or more than it is going to anti-narco operations.

Hattori Hanzo

29th July 2002, 23:55

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:50 pm on July 29, 2002
As a taxpayer, I am just as happy that my $$$ is going to fund combating leftist insurgents as much or more than it is going to anti-narco operations.

yeah, let me guess, as long as it protects americans...
selfish plutocrats

Capitalist Imperial

30th July 2002, 00:39

silence!

Anonymous

30th July 2002, 01:12

he he! i was wxpeting something like that from you CI!

Guest

30th July 2002, 04:04

As a Colombian citizen I must say that there is little doubt among anyone in Colombia about the guerrillas involvement in the drug business. The guerrillas are Colombia's #1 drug exporter.

They also are the ones responsible for most of the atrocities and terrorist acts in the country. They are literally destroying the country and scaring everybody away.

Pablo Escobar was nothing but scum. He allied with the guerrillas to create terrorism all over the country. Car bombs were exploding everywhere in populated areas. He even blew up a commercial airplane in mid-air.

May God bless the United States of America for helping us so much in the quest of getting rid of scum like Pablo Escobar and the leftists terrorists that destroy our country.

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 04:31

From Pravda
ANTI-COMMUNIST ASSASSINATIONS IN COLUMBIA

The Columbian Communist Party is being persecuted through assassinations despite the ceasefire signed between the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC) and the US-backed governme

A series of political assassinations has opened the question as to whether the Columbian government (and its supporter, the USA) was serious in its intent to sign the ceasefire agreement with FARC in September.

The chronology of the assassinations is as follows: on October 2nd, the Vice president of the national council of the Patriotic Union, Octavio Sarmiento, was killed by unknown gunmen. On October 8th, Jairo Antonio Fajardo, the secretary of the organising committee of the Columbian Communist Party, disappeared on the Montanitas highway in Paujil. Two days later, Elias Marin, the community prefect of Cartagena del Chiara, together with four people accompanying him, was assassinated on the same highway-

The next day, October 11th, the Communist activist Jesus Arias was assassinated on the Dolores-Prado highway. On the same day, the Communist leader of Tolima was wounded in a gun attack on the same highway, while Camilo Zuluaga, a leader of the Communist Youth in Tolima was murdered in another attack in the same place.

On October 16th, the communist activist in Barrancabermeja, Julian Rodriguez, was killed in an attack by paramilitaries. On October 18th, Diana Garcia, a political activist who denounced the attempted genocide by the Columbian government against the Union Popular and the Columbian Communist Party, was attacked and threatened in the centre of Bogota.

In recent weeks, hundreds of communist party members have been threatened with death and have sought exile abroad. Many Trades Union leaders have been killed and at least 200 peasants have been murdered by the paramilitaries in various regions of the country.

The paramilitaries are a fascist organisation, backed by the Columbian government which in its turn received the support of the USA, in monetary and human terms. American mercenaries are recruited in the US and train the Columbian Armed Forces under the pretence that cocaine from Columbia floods the streets of the US, even though the operators and chief beneficiaries of this operation live in the USA.

FARC and the Communist Party have been linked with this drugs trafficking but it is not the case. FARC is an armed political organism which is fighting for social justice in Columbia, another South American country where the wealth and power remains restricted to the hands of a corrupt oligarchy, supported by the fascist administration in the United States of America.

The government of President Andres Pestrana, in committing these crimes, proves itself to be totally unworthy of government and yet it is supported by the moralising and moralistic United States of America, which by its support of Pestrana, continues to condone international terrorism.

Through its support of the Columbian Armed Forces and fascist paramilitary groups, the United States of America is actively supporting and exporting international terrorist acts, as it commits international terrorism in Afghanistan and yet complains when the WTC crumbles in a heap of rubble.

Andres Pestrana is a war criminal and a murderer, supported by his friends in Washington.

Juan BLANCO

Guest

30th July 2002, 04:38

What a stupid article that is. The guy doesn't even know the name of the country, it is COLOMBIA and not COLUMBIA you dork. Also the name of the President is Pastrana not Pestrana.

What ignorant communist web-site did you the that BS from?

Guest

30th July 2002, 04:41

Hey peacenicked you seemed to be always posting stuff from other people, can't you make your own arguments for once?

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 04:42

What a petty minded ignoramus you are?

Guest

30th July 2002, 04:54

Yeah right, peacenicked, I challenge you to a discussion about Colombia anytime. That is something I know pretty well since I am Colombian, know the country pretty well, and I read two and sometimes three colombian newspapers on a daily basis.

I am not going to take no shit from people like you that cannot even post their own ideas. A very profound knowledge this guy has about Colombia that he doesn't even know the name of the country or the president. That article is not even worthy of guerrilla propaganda, at least guerrilla propaganda usually gets right the name of the country.

What, think you know a lot about Colombia because you found an stupid article in a communist website? Have you ever at least been in Colombia??

Stop BSitttin people here with stuff you have no idea about.

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 04:58

The article contains points of disagreement but Hitler knew more about Germany than me and I disagree with Nazism.

Guest

30th July 2002, 05:59

An I disagree with Nazism too.

But the point is that the article you posted shows complete ignorace of what is really going on in Colombia and is a propaganda for the guerrillas.

Your article starts talking about a ceasefire. The ceasefire? What ceasefire? There has never been a ceasefire!! There was a failed peaceprocess that was just a show for the guerrillas to strenghthen, but there was never a ceasefire.

I wonder why the article forgets to mention that right now hundreds of Colombia's mayors, and their families are being threatened to death by the guerrillas in an attempt of this group to undermine democracy in Colombia. I wonder why it forgets to mention about the kidnapping of Ingrid Betancour, or the kidnapping of so many thousands of honest civilians that have nothing to do with the conflict. I wonder why it forgets to mention about the recent massacres by the guerrillas, the one in Bojaya comes to mind in which the guerrillas bombed a church killing 108 civilians who were trying to get shelter in there from their brutal attack....

The article should be talking about this instead of twisting reality in the way it is doing. That argument reminds me as when the nazis tried to argue that there had been no holocaust.

Finally, I just want to say to my friends CI, AK, SN and other capitalists on this board to not believe a word of what that article say. Not that I think you would, I know you are a lot more intelligent than that.
The US has helped greatly in Colombia, and it is probably the only reason the country is still standing and have not gone into further chaos. Bush is probably the American president that has best understood the Colombian conflict and is making the right decisions.
The lesftist guerrillas are ruining the country and we, the honest and hard-working citizens of Colombia are nothing but infinitely grateful for all of America's help.

The Guest

30th July 2002, 06:07

And peaccenicked told me he didn't think I posted anything that was relevant.

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 06:17

So let me hear first you call the BBC liars.
This article connects the drugs with right wing paralamilitaries. Go on I dare you.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1966916.stm

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:18 am on July 30, 2002)

The Guest

30th July 2002, 06:44

I don't know about that article but the BBC as a whole I wouldn't trust.

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 07:05

Here is another ''unreliable'' source. How many do you want?
http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v13/2/drugwar.html

The Guest

30th July 2002, 07:14

peaccenicked: you keep posting articles about U.S. involvement, we all know that the U.S. is involved (not saying I agree withit). The point is dispite U.S. involvement there are problems. That is what the other guest was refering to, the guerrillas are just as involved as the U.S. in the drugs. Most likely the guerrillas have been involved in drugs longer. Now ask yourself why the U.S. began its war on drugs. Why did the U.S. even become involved.

peaccenicked

30th July 2002, 07:32

Call me a cynic. Tell me I should believe in the tooth fairy god mother called the CIA.
Here is a few articles worth gleaning through.
http://www.puckerstar.com/menwithoutshadow/Drugs.htm

The one that no good American patriot would believe at all is this one. I am just so gullible to conspiracy theory ha ha.
http://www.tomdavisbooks.com/library/50yea...arsciadrug.html (http://www.tomdavisbooks.com/library/50yearsciadrug.html)
You seem to have a rational mind, what do you think?

Anonymous

30th July 2002, 11:32

guest: you talk too much to someone that isnt registered! (i am not refering to "the guest"!)

andresG

30th July 2002, 16:51

To Guest 168.122.15.188 :
If you consider yourself so Colombian then why are you willing to let the United States occupy the country?
Learn and read about U.S. intervention in Latin America.
If you had some knowledge about this you wouldn't go around saying things like:
"May God bless the United States of America for helping us so much in the quest of getting rid of scum like Pablo Escobar and the leftists terrorists that destroy our country."

This just proves your ignorance.

Guest

30th July 2002, 17:30

Quote: from the anarchist on 11:32 am on July 30, 2002
guest: you talk too much to someone that isnt registered! (i am not refering to "the guest"!)

I was registered but unfortunately, I went by the name of "concerned", but I had format my disk drive and somehow I am unable to access it. I think I might be typing the password righ or something. Anyway this is concerned.

Guest

30th July 2002, 17:38

Quote: from andresG on 4:51 pm on July 30, 2002
To Guest 168.122.15.188 :
If you consider yourself so Colombian then why are you willing to let the United States occupy the country?
Learn and read about U.S. intervention in Latin America.
If you had some knowledge about this you wouldn't go around saying things like:
"May God bless the United States of America for helping us so much in the quest of getting rid of scum like Pablo Escobar and the leftists terrorists that destroy our country."

This just proves your ignorance.

I don't just consider myself a Colombian, I AM a Colombian, I was born and raised in Colombia.

And the US isn't occupying the country, it is just helping Colombia in the war against durgs and terrorism. The ones that are occupying the country are Farc, you cannot even drive around the country anymore without the fear of being stopped by Farc and getting robbed or kidnapped. They are the ones responsible for the massive exodus of Colombians in the past years.
I have plenty of knowledge of US intervention in LatinAmerica. I wish threre was more intervention. I wish there was more Americans willing to invest in Colombia.

I stand by my words, may God bless America.

Guest

30th July 2002, 17:41

One thing I hate about not being registered is not being able to edit, sorry about the typos. I write very fast and usually don't take the time to proof read what I wrote before sending it.

Guest

30th July 2002, 17:49

Quote: from peaccenicked on 6:17 am on July 30, 2002
So let me hear first you call the BBC liars.
This article connects the drugs with right wing paralamilitaries. Go on I dare you.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1966916.stm

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:18 am on July 30, 2002)

That article has nothing to do with the one you posted previously. Hey this article even got the name of my country right!. The paramilitaries have never denied they have funded themselves partially by taxing some drug producers in the region. However the paramilitaries do take responsibility and are in the quest of getting rid of drugs in their controlled zones. That is why the AUC split up receantly. The ACCU has done a great job in staying clean and being a real army to defend the people against the constant guerrilla abuses.

Capitalist Imperial

30th July 2002, 20:50

Quote: from Guest on 4:04 am on July 30, 2002
As a Colombian citizen I must say that there is little doubt among anyone in Colombia about the guerrillas involvement in the drug business. The guerrillas are Colombia's #1 drug exporter.

They also are the ones responsible for most of the atrocities and terrorist acts in the country. They are literally destroying the country and scaring everybody away.

Pablo Escobar was nothing but scum. He allied with the guerrillas to create terrorism all over the country. Car bombs were exploding everywhere in populated areas. He even blew up a commercial airplane in mid-air.

May God bless the United States of America for helping us so much in the quest of getting rid of scum like Pablo Escobar and the leftists terrorists that destroy our country.

Straight from the horses mouth.

Good job, brother!

Viva Colombia!

Viva los Estados Unidos ayudando Colombia!

andresG

30th July 2002, 23:00

Guest:
Obviously you have not studied U.S. intervention in Latin America because if you have you wouldn't wish there was more intervention.

Do you know that a great part of the military help that the United States gives Colombia for the fight against drugs is used to kill campesinos who have nothing to do with the drug trade?
(Well you said that you would welcome more acts like this, right?)

Is it a coincidence that the armed forces that most systematically violates human rights, as is the case with Colombia, are the armed forces that recieve the most assistence (when I say assistence, I mean weapons and military advisors) from the United States?

Let me give you another example, Mexico. The helicopters and most sophisticated weapons that the U.S. has sent Mexico to combat drugs have been very useful for combatting the campesinos who have rebelled in Chiapas and other places. (But why am I telling you this since you have plenty of knowledge about U.S. intervention in Latin America?)

Close your eyes and put your fingers on a map of Latin America. Every country you pick has a history of brutal, deadly U.S. intervention.

If you need any more examples just ask. The list goes on and on.

(Edited by andresG at 11:02 pm on July 30, 2002)

Capitalist Imperial

31st July 2002, 00:27

Quote: from andresG on 11:00 pm on July 30, 2002
Guest:
Obviously you have not studied U.S. intervention in Latin America because if you have you wouldn't wish there was more intervention.

Do you know that a great part of the military help that the United States gives Colombia for the fight against drugs is used to kill campesinos who have nothing to do with the drug trade?
(Well you said that you would welcome more acts like this, right?)

Is it a coincidence that the armed forces that most systematically violates human rights, as is the case with Colombia, are the armed forces that recieve the most assistence (when I say assistence, I mean weapons and military advisors) from the United States?

Let me give you another example, Mexico. The helicopters and most sophisticated weapons that the U.S. has sent Mexico to combat drugs have been very useful for combatting the campesinos who have rebelled in Chiapas and other places. (But why am I telling you this since you have plenty of knowledge about U.S. intervention in Latin America?)

Close your eyes and put your fingers on a map of Latin America. Every country you pick has a history of brutal, deadly U.S. intervention.

If you need any more examples just ask. The list goes on and on.

(Edited by andresG at 11:02 pm on July 30, 2002)

Those incidents are merely Latin American allies deriving incidental benefit from US support in the war on drugs. Besides, I'm sure the US government doesn't mind if it's assets are also employed in counter-insurgency operations.

andresG

31st July 2002, 03:15

(I am still waiting for Guest to give me a response.)

Capitalist Imperial why don't you give me an answer to what I said about killing campesinos who have nothing to do with the drug trade?
You have nothing to say about this, right?

How about the violation of human rights?
Nothing to say again, right?

Oh yes use words like "counter-insurgency"!
Just like your mentor Reagan did when he sold weapons to Iran (the enemy country). They paid him with morphine and heroin. From Zurich, Switzerland they sold the drugs and deposited the money in the world famous Swiss bank accounts. This money was then used to finance the mercenaries that bombed schools and farms in Nicaragua.

But of course that is justified because it is "counter-insurgency".

(I can imagine your response already Capitalist Imperial and Guest, I must start preparing myslef).

(Edited by andresG at 3:17 am on July 31, 2002)

Guest

31st July 2002, 06:32

Ok Andres, here goes your response, you have to be more patient man, I have other stuff to do as well you know.

"Do you know that a great part of the military help that the United States gives Colombia for the fight against drugs is used to kill campesinos who have nothing to do with the drug trade?"
This is not true, there would be a huge scandal in Colombia if this were true. I don't know which communist website you are getting your information from but that is simply not true.
What would the US or Colombia gain by killing innocent campesinos? It makes no sense. That is just like that accusation some communist made about the US being responsible for the September 11th attacks, the left just don't know what else to make up!

The help we recieve from the US is used to fight both the mafia and the guerrillas. Initially the US only allowed it to go against drugs, but after much debate in U.S. Congress they finally allowed it to be used against the leftist guerrillas as well. Which I think it is great and it is on the best interest of both the U.S. and Colombia.

Killing innocent campesinos? Give me a break.

"Is it a coincidence that the armed forces that most systematically violates human rights, as is the case with Colombia, are the armed forces that recieve the most assistence (when I say assistence, I mean weapons and military advisors) from the United States?"

I believe there is something you have not realized: Colombia is a country at war. Guerrilla's tactics include such methods as placing bombs in populated areas to create terror and poisoning water supplies. So don't come here talking to me about human rights, if there is someone that consistently violates human rights are the guerrillas.

Colombia is one of the countries where there are the most human rights violations of the World. That is why it needs so much assistance. Organizations like HRW only care to report those few cases coming from the military and always overlook at what the guerrilla is doing.

Some few cases of human rights abuses by the military have been discovered and have been punished, but this is far from the norm. For the most part the military is respectful of human rights, even if those scum bags from the guerrillas don't deserve it.

andresG

31st July 2002, 23:13

Guest:
I have the feeling that anything I say that you do not believe is just from some "communist website".
Well I got my information from:
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1995>>
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1996>>
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1997>>
*Human Rights Watch, Colombia's killer networks: The military-paramilitary partnership and the United States
*Eduardo Galeano, <<Patas Arriba, La Escuela Del Mundo Al Reves>>

You can check these sources out yourself.

I agree with you about the guerrillas tactics. I think they are just horrible. I have said this before, I do not consider them a "ejercito popular" as they call themselves. I condemn the abuse of human rights that the FARC commits. But I also condemn the human rights violations that the military and the paramilitaries commit. They are both guilty of crimes against the people of Colombia.

You want to solve the human rights problem of Colombia by letting the United States into the country?
Do you know about all of the human rights violations the United States has commited in Latin America?
The United States will only make matters worse in Colombia, they do not care about the people of Colombia.

El Plan Colombia es el plan imperialista norteamericano.

Capitalist Imperial

31st July 2002, 23:26

Quote: from andresG on 3:15 am on July 31, 2002
(I am still waiting for Guest to give me a response.)

Capitalist Imperial why don't you give me an answer to what I said about killing campesinos who have nothing to do with the drug trade?
You have nothing to say about this, right?

How about the violation of human rights?
Nothing to say again, right?

Oh yes use words like "counter-insurgency"!
Just like your mentor Reagan did when he sold weapons to Iran (the enemy country). They paid him with morphine and heroin. From Zurich, Switzerland they sold the drugs and deposited the money in the world famous Swiss bank accounts. This money was then used to finance the mercenaries that bombed schools and farms in Nicaragua.

But of course that is justified because it is "counter-insurgency".

(I can imagine your response already Capitalist Imperial and Guest, I must start preparing myslef).

(Edited by andresG at 3:17 am on July 31, 2002)

Are u from colombia? you can cite all of the articles you want, but I would be more inclined to give credibility to an average citizen who actually lives there and supports US assistance.

andresG

31st July 2002, 23:42

My family is from Colombia and lives in Colombia.
I read Colombia newspapers all the time.
I watch Colombian news everyday.
I've been there plenty of times.
I am very concerned about this situation because I care about my family and what will happen to them.

But this means nothing anyway.
You don't have to be Colombian to see what is happening. To see the truth about Plan Colombia.

liderDeFARC

1st August 2002, 00:03

Hey parce. Nice argument we got going on here...well just wait until i get my small ass over there to colombia. (which is tomorrow) i might pay you a visit Guest, how about that? and we will take a nice little trip during the night from wherever you live through mountains and all flying a u$ flag to Cartagena. enough nonesense which in my lifetime i will be able to do (dont laugh andres i enjoy writing shit) Well i dont mean to be chismosa concerned but there are a few "critical" questions i must ask in order to understand your behavior please dont be rude and answer. ( by the way i too get mad when people dont spell Colombia right)
do you have a "solid" job in Colombia
has the guerrilla or paramilitaries ever attacked your family or property
where do you live
have ever been to the u$ (i think that one is just out of curiosity but not really important).....

errr this will be continued when i get hold of another com.

Capitalist Imperial

1st August 2002, 00:10

Quote: from andresG on 11:42 pm on July 31, 2002
My family is from Colombia and lives in Colombia.
I read Colombia newspapers all the time.
I watch Colombian news everyday.
I've been there plenty of times.
I am very concerned about this situation because I care about my family and what will happen to them.

But this means nothing anyway.
You don't have to be Colombian to see what is happening. To see the truth about Plan Colombia.

OK, thats legitimate, but can't you see that plan colombia is good for colombia? do you support farc and other narco-terrorists who get funded by the drug trade?

andresG

1st August 2002, 00:12

Natalia what the hell are you talking about?

Capitalist Imperial

1st August 2002, 00:13

Watch out for the crop-dusters rendering your coca crops worthless and blackhawk choppers reigning down 1000 rounds of justice per minute on your leftist butt!!!!

Torch the tents!!

andresG

1st August 2002, 00:15

"OK, thats legitimate, but can't you see that plan colombia is good for colombia? do you support farc and other narco-terrorists who get funded by the drug trade?"
-Capitalist Imperial

I don't support the FARC or other "narco-terrorists" but I also don't support Plan Colombia and U.S. intervention in Colombia.

andresG

1st August 2002, 00:22

"Watch out for the crop-dusters rendering your coca crops worthless and blackhawk choppers reigning down 1000 rounds of justice per minute on your leftist butt!!!!

Torch the tents!!"
-Capitalist Imperial

yea
right.

Guest

1st August 2002, 06:35

Quote: from liderDeFARC on 12:03 am on Aug. 1, 2002
Well i dont mean to be chismosa concerned but there are a few "critical" questions i must ask in order to understand your behavior please dont be rude and answer. ( by the way i too get mad when people dont spell Colombia right)
do you have a "solid" job in Colombia
has the guerrilla or paramilitaries ever attacked your family or property
where do you live
have ever been to the u$ (i think that one is just out of curiosity but not really important).....

errr this will be continued when i get hold of another com.

I was born in Bogota and have lived there most of my life, although I also lived for a year in Manizales and a year in Armenia, both two very beautiful cities of Colombia. I took a loan and was lucky to get into college in Bogota at Los Andes University. I studied engineering there for five years (in Colombia it is 5 years and not 4 years as in the States). Then I started working at a construction company in Bogota and paying off my loan. I also managed to buy a Nissan Sentra to move myself around. I was doing ok until I got a phone call from someone from Farc asking for money or else. I just ignored it and continued with my business until one night a group of armed men attempted to kidnap me. I stepped on the gas and I still don't know how I managed to escape from there alive.

After that I came to the USA last year and sought political asylum. They allowed me to stay and gave me financial assistance and I am currently pursuing a masters degree which I will finish next year.

vox

1st August 2002, 06:48

About spraying:

The indigenous people fear it: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0722-05.htm

Those horrible Communists at the Philadelphia Inquirer tell us that the spraying is destroying food crops (http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0326-03.htm), but here we know that spraying is very precise, right?

Heck, we're even spraying schools (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/050100-02.htm).

Of course, who cares about any of that? After all, the Unites States trains troops to massacre people (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/040100-03.htm), so why get upset about a little more death?

After all, the US is a moral nation, right?

vox

Guest

1st August 2002, 06:56

Quote: from andresG on 11:13 pm on July 31, 2002
Guest:
I have the feeling that anything I say that you do not believe is just from some "communist website".
Well I got my information from:
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1995>>
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1996>>
*Amnistia Internacional, <<Informe 1997>>
*Human Rights Watch, Colombia's killer networks: The military-paramilitary partnership and the United States
*Eduardo Galeano, <<Patas Arriba, La Escuela Del Mundo Al Reves>>

You can check these sources out yourself.

I agree with you about the guerrillas tactics. I think they are just horrible. I have said this before, I do not consider them a "ejercito popular" as they call themselves. I condemn the abuse of human rights that the FARC commits. But I also condemn the human rights violations that the military and the paramilitaries commit. They are both guilty of crimes against the people of Colombia.

You want to solve the human rights problem of Colombia by letting the United States into the country?
Do you know about all of the human rights violations the United States has commited in Latin America?
The United States will only make matters worse in Colombia, they do not care about the people of Colombia.

El Plan Colombia es el plan imperialista norteamericano.

Andres, I am happy we agree at least on something, and that is that the guerrilla tactics are just horrible and unacceptable.

I am very familiar with Amnesty International's reports and the ones from HRW. I do not agree with them one bit though, because they are clearly biased and not presenting the real truth. They put a blind eye to pretty much everything the guerrilla does. They never even mention all the massacres commited by the guerrillas. They take a very biased stand and they twist the truth, only Colombians who actually have to live there and live the conflict know where the real threat comes from and who the bad guys really are. From reading AI and HRW reports you just get everything backwards, and they don't even have presence in the country to monitor what really goes on.

The guerrillas have ignored human rights for decades. They break human rights every day. Quite frankly I don't give a damn about their human rights. They deserve nothing but a slow painful death. They have it very well deserved.

Guest

1st August 2002, 07:01

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:13 am on Aug. 1, 2002
Watch out for the crop-dusters rendering your coca crops worthless and blackhawk choppers reigning down 1000 rounds of justice per minute on your leftist butt!!!!

Torch the tents!!

LOL :)
I am really glad to have you around man. Thanks for all the support.

peaccenicked

1st August 2002, 07:09

Human rights are for everybody. Criminals included.
Here is inside story which tells a different tale than you.
http://www.colombiasupport.net/199912/cons...-goff-1222.html (http://www.colombiasupport.net/199912/consortium-goff-1222.html)

vox

1st August 2002, 07:27

Of course, "guest" does not dare answer my post.

Typical of trolls.

vox

Guest

1st August 2002, 07:36

The US trains troops to massacre people?...

Right vox, whatever you say. If they really wanted to massacre people why not just use the atomic bomb or chemical weapons, thagt would be more cost effective than training troops.

vox

1st August 2002, 07:47

Guest,

Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? Hmm, you're a truly dim bulb, aren't you?

And, of course, it's quite obvious to me you didn't bother to read the link. That's typical with right-wingers, however. Never let the truth get in the way of good rhetoric.

As for cost effective, you show yourself to be a very, VERY bad right-winger there, for you didn't mention the cost-benefit analysis.

I've you beat, guest, on every count.

Every one of them.

Respond again, please, so I may humiliate you some more.

vox

Anonymous

1st August 2002, 14:12

Who was the only west country that didnt accept the international court? AMERICA! Why? maby because if america enters the court it may only leave with some heavy restrictions on your ass! Now k´mon CI give me a stupid reason for america rejecting the international court! oh it is against your democracy? its agaonst yur beliefs? it doesnt defend the american people?

Guest

1st August 2002, 20:31

Quote: from vox on 7:47 am on Aug. 1, 2002
Guest,

Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? Hmm, you're a truly dim bulb, aren't you?

And, of course, it's quite obvious to me you didn't bother to read the link. That's typical with right-wingers, however. Never let the truth get in the way of good rhetoric.

As for cost effective, you show yourself to be a very, VERY bad right-winger there, for you didn't mention the cost-benefit analysis.

I've you beat, guest, on every count.

Every one of them.

Respond again, please, so I may humiliate you some more.

vox

Yes Vox, of course I've heard about the School of the Americas. I agree with you that sometimes the people that have been trained there have not been very observant of human rights. It is not very common though, there are also honest people who have been trained there and have been very effective against terrorism.

You cannot blame the school for it though. That is like blaming the schools the CEOs from Worldcom or Enron assisted for their business malpractices. The school has not any responsibility if their alumni decide to break the law and not used what they learned for a good purpose.

Capitalist Imperial

1st August 2002, 20:52

Quote: from peaccenicked on 7:09 am on Aug. 1, 2002
Human rights are for everybody. Criminals included.

B.S., why should they be afforded any rights, when they obviously don't repect the rights of others.

Attitudes like this are why criminals don't learn their lesson nor are effectively deterred.

Guest

1st August 2002, 21:30

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:52 pm on Aug. 1, 2002

Quote: from peaccenicked on 7:09 am on Aug. 1, 2002
Human rights are for everybody. Criminals included.

B.S., why should they be afforded any rights, when they obviously don't repect the rights of others.

Attitudes like this are why criminals don't learn their lesson nor are effectively deterred.

Yes CI, I agree 100%. But you know the left has been always so much more concerned with the human rights of criminals than those of their victims.

In Colombia HRW ignores pretty much all of the abuses by the guerrillas, but when someone does something against the guerrillas they write a book about it and energetically condemn it. All those human rights organizations are the same bs, always defending criminals.

That is why the war in Colombia is so complicated. The guerrillas can do pretty much everything they like whereas the military have to worry about all these human rights organizations and the europeans on their back just waiting for them to do something wrong to get them in jail.

When the guerrillas tried to take over the Palace of Justice in Colombia, a lot of the people from the military that were very patriotically defending the attack, were later imprisoned for "violations of human rights". The guerilla people on the other hand who participated in the attack got an amnesty and live comfortably.

James

1st August 2002, 21:32

why should they be afforded any rights, when they obviously don't repect the rights of others.

Attitudes like this are why criminals don't learn their lesson nor are effectively deterred.

BING.

andresG

1st August 2002, 22:49

Okay Guest you can choose not to believe Amnesty International, but just for your information I have read reports of massacres committed by the FARC in their reports. They condemn both sides, just like I do.

I not only blame the military and paramilitaries.
I don't take sides.
I condemn both of them( the FARC and the military/paramilitaries).

Well getting back to the topic here, the School of the Americas is a perfect example of how the U.S. trained dictators and bloody assasins.

"Yes Vox, of course I've heard about the School of the Americas. I agree with you that sometimes the people that have been trained there have not been very observant of human rights. It is not very common though, there are also honest people who have been trained there and have been very effective against terrorism.

You cannot blame the school for it though. That is like blaming the schools the CEOs from Worldcom or Enron assisted for their business malpractices. The school has not any responsibility if their alumni decide to break the law and not used what they learned for a good purpose."
-Guest

This is why I told you to study U.S. intervention in Latin America.
The school had nothing to do with the students who came out?
Please! This school had classes on how to intimidate, torture and oppress the Latin American people.

"Fighting terrorism" or "Fighting subversion" are just code phrases that the U.S. used to cover this up.

When will you awaken from your dream and realize that everywhere the U.S. has been in Latin America, they have left a bloody trail behind?

I pray to God that this does not happen to Colombia.

(Edited by andresG at 10:50 pm on Aug. 1, 2002)

peaccenicked

2nd August 2002, 01:19

Human rights for everybody includes victims, dorks.
Everybody means everybody.
It is a myth created by rightwing supporters of the abuse of human rights that victims are given any less status than perps.
Socialist believe that there is adequate resources for all.
You sicko fascists.

Guest

2nd August 2002, 01:45

Quote: from andresG on 10:49 pm on Aug. 1, 2002
Okay Guest you can choose not to believe Amnesty International, but just for your information I have read reports of massacres committed by the FARC in their reports. They condemn both sides, just like I do.

I not only blame the military and paramilitaries.
I don't take sides.
I condemn both of them( the FARC and the military/paramilitaries).

Well getting back to the topic here, the School of the Americas is a perfect example of how the U.S. trained dictators and bloody assasins.

"Yes Vox, of course I've heard about the School of the Americas. I agree with you that sometimes the people that have been trained there have not been very observant of human rights. It is not very common though, there are also honest people who have been trained there and have been very effective against terrorism.

You cannot blame the school for it though. That is like blaming the schools the CEOs from Worldcom or Enron assisted for their business malpractices. The school has not any responsibility if their alumni decide to break the law and not used what they learned for a good purpose."
-Guest

This is why I told you to study U.S. intervention in Latin America.
The school had nothing to do with the students who came out?
Please! This school had classes on how to intimidate, torture and oppress the Latin American people.

"Fighting terrorism" or "Fighting subversion" are just code phrases that the U.S. used to cover this up.

When will you awaken from your dream and realize that everywhere the U.S. has been in Latin America, they have left a bloody trail behind?

I pray to God that this does not happen to Colombia.

(Edited by andresG at 10:50 pm on Aug. 1, 2002)

Andres, you seem like a good and concerned guy. We may not agree very much in the way we see the conflict and its responsibles, but it is great to have a debate with someone who seems to care about Colombia just as much as I do.

Ok, now to answer your comments, I am aware that Amensty International condemns both sides. But usually they exagerate what the paramilitaries and military does and downplay what the guerrilla does. All their reports start by blaming the paramilitaries and the military for most of the human rights abuses in the Country. Then some paragraphs later and as a side note they mention the guerrillas. And it is not necessarily what they write that angers me, it is what they don't, they just touch the subject briefly and don't really say anything about the atrocities commited by the guerrillas. Only a few words because they know they have to, but not necessarily telling the proportions of what is really happening.

The Colombian government has protested Amnesty International's reports in the past for seeming biased toward the guerrillas and failing to report the atrocities comitted from them. The only AI response to this has been that their organization is always more concerned about the human rights abuses of governments and that that is what they want to report mainly.

But anyway, just grab any Colombian newspaper, anyday, and what you'll probably see are kidnappings, massacres, car bombs by the guerrillas. Actually there is so much of this that sometimes these things don't even make it to the news. There are so many kidnappings that only if it is only reported if it is an important or known person. This is the reality. Most of the terrorism against innocent civilians comes from them, despite what any AI report might say.

About the School of the Americas, I don't really know the details of what is being taught there so I cannot really say if they include torture and oppression tactics. I would have to take a look more closely into this matter from different sources if I want to talk about this.

I am aware of some of the abuses committed from people that have graduated from there. But also you have to try to look at both sides of the story because not all the people that have graduated from there have grown into human rights abusers or criminals. I would think most of them are doing a fine job in being an anti-subversion force. Of course it would be a lot harder to find any success stories as it is to find the few stories in which it has grown bad.

Also I am not really sure what the responsibility of the School should really be, because I am sure their intentions are good, despite of what may have happened in some cases.

andresG

3rd August 2002, 04:59

Well I am also glad that I can have a debate with you, something that would be impossible with someone like ReaganLives.

"Also I am not really sure what the responsibility of the School should really be, because I am sure their intentions are good, despite of what may have happened in some cases."
-Guest

No Guest, there were no good intentions at all.
This was just a way for the U.S. government to get into Latin America (just like PLAN COLOMBIA).
The School Of The Americas has been used by the U.S. government to train military officials that have become "leaders" of Latin American countries(well you can't really calll them leaders, more like U.S. puppets).

The U.S. government knew very well who they were training.
They were training (I will just name a couple, but if you want more I would be more than happy to provide you with information):
from ARGENTINA-
*COL Mario Davico- One of several Argentinian military advisors present in Honduras during the early 1980's. The Honduran Armed Forces, particularly Battalion 3-16, were taught the "Argentine Method" of extreme repression practiced successfully during Argentina's "dirty war' (1976-1983). Techniques included arbitrary detention, torture, extrajudicial executions, and methods of disposing of the bodies of the victims.
from COLOMBIA-
*1LT Pedro Nei Acosta Gaivis- Murder of 11 campesinos, 1990. Ordered the massacre of 11 campesinos, had his men dress the corpses like guerrilla forces, and then dismissed the killings as an armed confrontation between the Army and guerrillas.
*1LT Luis Enrique Andrade Ortiz- Massacre of a judicial commission, 1989. The intellectual author of the paramilitary massacre of 12 officials, including 2 judges, who were investigating military/paramilitary cooperations.
Assassination, 1988. Ordered the assassination of farmer Jorge Ramírez, carried out by a military/paramilitary patrol under his command.
Assassination, 1988: Ordered the assassination of José Sánchez, also carried out by military/paramilitary soldiers under his command. Then he had the corpse put on display for the benefit of the public.
Ramírez family massacre, 1986: Andrade Ortiz was one of officers in charge of military/paramilitary soldiers who broke into the home of the Ramírez family, killed two members outright; and captured 4 others whose bodies were found later with signs of torture.

Trust me there are too many too list in one post.
And these are not just a few cases.
These cases have repeatedly occured.

This school must be shut down.
It doesn't matter what its name is.

(Edited by andresG at 5:04 am on Aug. 3, 2002)

concerned

4th August 2002, 21:49

Andres,

The Plan Colombia was proposed by the Colombian governement to the U.S and Europe and not vice-versa. It was designed to get international help against drugs and terrorism that so much damage have done to the country. The U.S. gave Colombia 1.6 billion in aid for social programs, to help the military better defend the country against terrorism and to fight drug producers. In what way is this bad for Colombia?

new democracy

9th August 2002, 22:00

Pravda (Truth)

A Bolshevik daily, published in St. Petersburg. Founded in April 1912 on the initiative of the St. Petersburg workers.

Pravda experienced two lives, more or less marked before and after the revolution. Before the revolution, Pravda was a mass working-class newspaper published with a wide circle of worker correspondents/writers round the paper — it served as the voice of the Bolshevik party, bringing Marxist analysis of current events to Russia's literate workers and peasants. In a single year it published over 11,000 items from worker correspondents. Pravda had an average daily circulation of 40,000 issues, rising in some months to as high as 60,000 issues. Lenin directed the newspaper while living abroad. He wrote for it almost every day, gave instructions and advice to its editors, and gathered around the paper the Party's best literary forces.

Pravda was subjected to constant police persecutions. During its first year of publication it was confiscated forty-one times, its editors were prosecuted thirty-six times and were sentenced to terms of imprisonment totalling 4 years for their articles. For two years and three months Pravda was closed down by the tsarist government eight times, but reappeared under other names (Rabockaga Pravda, Severnaya Pravda, Pravda Truda, Za Pravdu, Proletarskaya Pravda, Put Pravdy, Rabochy, Trudovaga Pravda). The paper was closed down on July 8 (21), 1914, as a result of its constant agitation against the comming First World War.

The paper was unable to resume publication until after the February revolution. Beginning with March 5(18), 1917 it came out as the Central Organ of the R.S.D.L.P. On April 5(18), on his return from abroad, Lenin joined the Editorial Board of Pravda and became its Editor-in-Chief. On July 5(18), 1917 the newspaper offices were wrecked by the Cadets and Cossacks. Between July and October 1917 Pravda was persecuted by the Provisional Government and repeatedly changed its name, coming out as Lislok Pravdy, Proletary, Flaboehy, Raboehy Put. Beginning October 27 (November 9), 1917, the paper came out under its old name of Pravda.

After the revolution, the role of Pravda shifted. Without a serious opposition press, Pravda served not only as a Marxist analysis of events, but became the definitive source of all news, among the only analysis of events that was available. It further extended it's role by becoming a news service for the entire nation, covering all aspects of daily life to the most serious foreign events. For decades Pravda contained some fantastic journalistic work, but all of it was shrouded in so much propaganda and distortions: pravda become a true farce — its content had no real connection to the truth. During glasnost, Pravda was however, among the first periodicals to begin solid critique of the government, in a tradition of Marxism it had lost under Stalinism so many decades ago.

this is from: http://www.marxists.org/glossary/periodica.../p/r.htm#pravda (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/periodicals/p/r.htm#pravda)

liderDeFARC

13th August 2002, 17:14

It seems i came a little late, but oh well. andres just shut up, i was just having a little fun with the post. The worse part though is that i have no idea what you are talking about. how uninforned i am. So concerned/guest you are living in the u$ right now, right? and when was the last time you came here?
oh let me just say that Uribe is president and he woke up " real early " to start working... lol. no but the were a lot of bombs. and a couple of bombs exploded on the people who were making them. Like once (a few days ago) the guy had the explosives with him in a taxi and something set them off and -boom- they exploded and the guy died, i dont know about the taxi driver. there was a lot of comotion though that i can tell you 2. whose been to Cartagena? its real pretty here.
i dont know what to say to you Con. about your incident, i guess thats why you are grateful with the u$. Just that maybe the next time you come you wont find a country here, youll find a place filled with blood shed everywhere... witha lot of poverty and many gringos.
i dont know what im writing. Oh so what is this about the "school of the Americas" never heard of it.

concerned

13th August 2002, 22:48

Quote: from liderDeFARC on 5:14 pm on Aug. 13, 2002
It seems i came a little late, but oh well. andres just shut up, i was just having a little fun with the post. The worse part though is that i have no idea what you are talking about. how uninforned i am. So concerned/guest you are living in the u$ right now, right? and when was the last time you came here?
oh let me just say that Uribe is president and he woke up " real early " to start working... lol. no but the were a lot of bombs. and a couple of bombs exploded on the people who were making them. Like once (a few days ago) the guy had the explosives with him in a taxi and something set them off and -boom- they exploded and the guy died, i dont know about the taxi driver. there was a lot of comotion though that i can tell you 2. whose been to Cartagena? its real pretty here.
i dont know what to say to you Con. about your incident, i guess thats why you are grateful with the u$. Just that maybe the next time you come you wont find a country here, youll find a place filled with blood shed everywhere... witha lot of poverty and many gringos.
i dont know what im writing. Oh so what is this about the "school of the Americas" never heard of it.

Enough about my personal life. That is something I really don't come here to debate and has nothing to do with the argument. Anyway, I've already answer you most of your questions and don't plan to go into further details.

I take it from your name "liderDeFarc" that you support Farc, hmm, maybe you are even a member of Farc yourself. I would like to know your opinion about the multiple terrorists acts against civilians from Farc. What do you think about all the bombings? Your post doesn't hint that you are even the slightest bit upset about them. Do you consider this a legitimate tactic of war?

Also please tell me one positive thing Farc has brough to Colombia. Just one, I would really like to know.

How can you support Farc? How can you support those cold blooded terrorists who have brought nothing but destroction and terror to Colombia? There must be something really fucked up in your head.

(Edited by concerned at 10:50 pm on Aug. 13, 2002)