Israeli Policies At Odds with American Jews

[Bud Struggle]

An interesting opinion piece in Haaretz--a reasonably fair Israeli newspaper.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977946.html

For American Jews like me, for whom Israel is central in their lives, this week's story about an alleged spy who worked for Israel in the U.S. two decades ago is another kiss of death. That is because more ugly headlines about Israel - worst of all about an American spying for it - only contribute to the indifference to the Jewish state that seems to be growing every day.

[Luís Henrique]

An interesting opinion piece in Haaretz--a reasonably fair Israeli newspaper.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977946.html

For American Jews like me, for whom Israel is central in their lives, this week's story about an alleged spy who worked for Israel in the U.S. two decades ago is another kiss of death. That is because more ugly headlines about Israel - worst of all about an American spying for it - only contribute to the indifference to the Jewish state that seems to be growing every day.

Israel is an independent State. Why would it not spy on the US?

Does anyone believe that the CIA does not systematically spy on Israel?

Luís Henrique

[Demogorgon]

All countries "spy" on one another. Every embassy will have someone working at it, usually holding what appears to be a sinecure position whose job it is to pass information back to their country's intelligence agency. Nobody cares about that kind of spying though except as an excuse to expel diplomats during diplomatic crises. It is interesting that Israeli spies are occasionally caught in America doing a lot more than that.

[Dean]

An interesting opinion piece in Haaretz--a reasonably fair Israeli newspaper.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977946.html

For American Jews like me, for whom Israel is central in their lives, this week's story about an alleged spy who worked for Israel in the U.S. two decades ago is another kiss of death. That is because more ugly headlines about Israel - worst of all about an American spying for it - only contribute to the indifference to the Jewish state that seems to be growing every day.

Israeli policies are at odds with Israelis. There has been growing opposition to occupation and settlers in recent years.

And despite what people say, Israeli spying against the U.S. is out of place. U.S. espionage on Israel is more or less non-existant, while the Mossad has plenty of spys poised to watch U.S. targets.

[Phalanx]

Israeli policies are at odds with Israelis. There has been growing opposition to occupation and settlers in recent years.

And despite what people say, Israeli spying against the U.S. is out of place. U.S. espionage on Israel is more or less non-existant, while the Mossad has plenty of spys poised to watch U.S. targets.

I love how you think you know what you're talking about. Nobody here knows the extent of the CIA's involvement in spying on Israel.

[Dean]

I love how you think you know what you're talking about. Nobody here knows the extent of the CIA's involvement in spying on Israel.

I love how worms like you only crawl out of the woodworks when specific topics are brought up, and then you still can't offer anything but an obvious, knee-jerk reaction. Go back to CNN and keep masturbating.

[Unicorn]

The Israeli spy scandals may unfortunately increase anti-Semitism in the US. They give right-wingers a reason to perceive the Jews as untrustworthy.

I condemn Zionism as a form of reactionary nationalism. Hopefully, Jewish and Arab workers could found a multiethnic workers' state in Palestine.

[Phalanx]

I love how worms like you only crawl out of the woodworks when specific topics are brought up, and then you still can't offer anything but an obvious, knee-jerk reaction. Go back to CNN and keep masturbating.

So you really do know how much the CIA spies on Israel then? You're dangerously arrogant my friend.

[Severian]

Israel is an independent State. Why would it not spy on the US?

Independent? Well.....OK, it has enough independence from the U.S. that spying is not strange or surprising.

The article's larger point, that U.S. Jews are losing interest in Israel, is more interesting.

But not tremendously surprising either: what do U.S. Jews need Israel for currently?

***

I'm not sure if American Jewish opinion is more or less hawkish than Israeli public opinion - possibly more? - but it's probably less hawkish than the actions of the Israeli government. Dean is correct that "Israeli policies are at odds with Israelis. There has been growing opposition to occupation and settlers in recent years."

[graffic]

All countries spy on one another

[Sky]

Israeli policies are at odds with Israelis. There has been growing opposition to occupation and settlers in recent years.

80% of Israelis supported the aggression against Lebanon. An equal percentage supported the United States aggression against Iraq. 70 percent of Israelis want to bomb Iran. The problem lies not with the policies of the present regime in Israel but with the the very concept of Zionism and the settler colonialism practiced not only in the illegally occupied territories but in all of Palestine. The vast majority of the Jews in Israel refuse to consider any solution that would return the sovereignty over all of Palestine to its indigenous people; indeed, public opinion in Israel is split whether to even dismantle the colonial settlements in the illegally occupied territories.



Israel is an independent State.
Hardly. Israel has demonstrated only dependence on the imperialist powers for its existence.

Why would it not spy on the US?
Because Israeli espionage violates not only the United States laws but also the sovereignty of the United States.

[Bud Struggle]

The article's larger point, that U.S. Jews are losing interest in Israel, is more interesting.



Thatactually was the point I was interested in. Could you have a Zion without Zionists?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Probably not, especially if they're Christian Right (Pat Robertson) or Islamist Zionists (Hamas).

[graffic]

80% of Israelis supported the aggression against Lebanon. An equal percentage supported the United States aggression against Iraq. 70 percent of Israelis want to bomb Iran. The problem lies not with the policies of the present regime in Israel but with the the very concept of Zionism and the settler colonialism practiced not only in the illegally occupied territories but in all of Palestine. The vast majority of the Jews in Israel refuse to consider any solution that would return the sovereignty over all of Palestine to its indigenous people; indeed, public opinion in Israel is split whether to even dismantle the colonial settlements in the illegally occupied territories.


The very concept of Zionism is - Jewish self-determination. Just the same as any peoples right to self-determination, combining Zionism and "settler colonialism" as the same thing is ignorant and racist.

And the vast majority of Jews in Israel have always pushed for a two-state solution. This is compared to the Palestinians who voted in a backward far-right Islamic party that have said in their own charter "We want to kill the Jews".

The two state solution has been turned down around six times in the past six decades by corrupt Palestinian leaders lobbyed by elitist Arab bigots who put reactionary politics above peace for their people.

Israel should dismantle the settlements and push for a two-state solution.

[Luís Henrique]

Hardly. Israel has demonstrated only dependence on the imperialist powers for its existence.

There is some kind of twisted sympathy for Israel among Americans, as if it was some kind of 51st state. It is not, it is a sovereign State. If its interests are in conflict with Washington, it will act aggressively against Washington. See USS Liberty. That's what all sovereign States do.


Because Israeli espionage violates not only the United States laws but also the sovereignty of the United States.

Yes, espionage is illegal by the laws of its victims, and it violates their sovereignity. That however is one of its points; to violate another States' sovereignity.

Luís Henrique

[Unicorn]

There is some kind of twisted sympathy for Israel among Americans, as if it was some kind of 51st state. It is not, it is a sovereign State. If its interests are in conflict with Washington, it will act aggressively against Washington. See USS Liberty. That's what all sovereign States do.
The USS Liberty incident was a mistake. The attack was not intentional. American anti-Semites have unfortunately promulgated the myth that the attack was deliberate and there is a great deal of misinformation on the Internet.

[Dean]

The USS Liberty incident was a mistake. The attack was not intentional. American anti-Semites have unfortunately promulgated the myth that the attack was deliberate and there is a great deal of misinformation on the Internet.

Yes, it was a mistake. But, like many other incidents, it was not investigated, where it obviously should have. Any time a U.S. ally attacks a U.S. entity, a full and rigorous investigation is undertaken. However, when it comes to ANY Israeli action, a blind eye is turned. This is because the U.S. is fighting such an obsessive pro-Israel campaign with such weak stances in the U.N. that any criticism would hurt that campaign. In a sense, the militant Zionists who lobby Washington have dug the nation a grave: since any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism, even criticism which comes from a western power must be ignored.

[Sky]

..

[Dean]

Zionism is a most reactionary variety of Jewish bourgeois nationalism. It is a nationalistic ideology, represented by a ramified system of organizations and a policy expressing the interests of the Jewish big bourgeoisie, which is closely linked with the monopolistic bourgeoisie of the imperialist states. Modern Zionism is militantly chauvinist, racist, and anticommunist.

Zionism's main policy has always been one of struggle, both open and covert, against socialism, the international communist and national liberation movements. Immediately after the victory of the October Revolution of 1917 in Russia, Zionism unleashed an active struggle against the Soviet state. After World War II (1939-45), amid a further intensification of the overall crisis of capitalism, the anticommunism of international Zionism assumed still broader dimensions.

While this is characteristic of the dominant trend of Zionism, it is inaccurate to claim that Zionism is inherently like this. Zionism does not necessarily indicate a support for Israeli policies, so it is very important to distinguish between militant Zionists who support a Jewish-only power structure / theocracy and militancy, and those Zionists who support a peaceful migration of Jews to Palestine.


The two state solution has been turned down around six times in the past six decades by corrupt Palestinian leaders lobbyed by elitist Arab bigots who put reactionary politics above peace for their people.
The PLO has long pushed for a two-state solution, however they cannot have a state while Israel refuses to define its borders - this has also characterized the entirety of the Israel diplomatic tradition. No nation would agree to an aggressive neighbor to have peace and reconciliation when the power refuses to define its own borders, especially when the nation is constantly expanding into the subjects' land. The implication that the PLO is somehow to blame just because they haven't accepted a treaty which amounts to a suicide note is extremely offensive to me.

[graffic]

The PLO has long pushed for a two-state solution, however they cannot have a state while Israel refuses to define its borders - this has also characterized the entirety of the Israel diplomatic tradition. No nation would agree to an aggressive neighbor to have peace and reconciliation when the power refuses to define its own borders, especially when the nation is constantly expanding into the subjects' land. The implication that the PLO is somehow to blame just because they haven't accepted a treaty which amounts to a suicide note is extremely offensive to me.

The PLO.. which has how much power over Palestinian interests? The PLO.. which bombs children's nurserys and has links with the worlds largest drug barons.

The Palestinian Authority is to blame for rejecting a peaceful fair solution six times. Clinton famously said to Arafat:
“If the Israelis can make compromises and you can't, I should go home. You have been here 14 days and said no to everything. These things will have consequences. Failure will end the peace process.....”

[Phalanx]

The PLO.. which has how much power over Palestinian interests? The PLO.. which bombs children's nurserys and has links with the worlds largest drug barons.

The Palestinian Authority is to blame for rejecting a peaceful fair solution six times. Clinton famously said to Arafat:
“If the Israelis can make compromises and you can't, I should go home. You have been here 14 days and said no to everything. These things will have consequences. Failure will end the peace process.....”






My best guess is that there were two reasons why Arafat rejected the Oslo Accords. One, he was negotiating under an imaginated position of power and therefore could demand more, and two the Islamist factions would've taken more support from Fatah if he would've agreed to any final border agreement.

[Dean]

The PLO.. which has how much power over Palestinian interests? The PLO.. which bombs children's nurserys and has links with the worlds largest drug barons.

The Palestinian Authority is to blame for rejecting a peaceful fair solution six times. Clinton famously said to Arafat:
“If the Israelis can make compromises and you can't, I should go home. You have been here 14 days and said no to everything. These things will have consequences. Failure will end the peace process.....”


If you want to pull the murder card, you should look at the statistics: as far as civilians go, Israeli deaths pale in comparison to the deaths of Palestinians.

And Clinton is a piece of shit. He was saying this at a time when the government was giving military aid to Israel, which was subsequently usef for expansionism and incursions. If the Palestinians are guilty of denying truces in their words, the Israelis are guilty of the same in their actions.