Rethinking Crimethinc: Your politics are bourgeois as fuck

[Bilan]

"Your politics are bourgeois as fuck"

There are two ways out of capitalism, revolution or death. Anybody who tells you otherwise is simply wrong. The US based sub-cultural cult "Crimethinc" (CWC) who mix anarchism with bohemian drop-out lifestyles and vague anti-civilisation sentiment would have you believe that capitalism is something from which you can merely remove yourself by quitting work, eating from bins and doing whatever "feels good". They carry on the legacy of prize-idiot Abbie Hoffman, printing books and zines which fetishise scams, petty crime and useless activist/punk sub-cultural activity like food not bombs, squatting, etc. They are anarchists by name only with little relevance to the rest of the anarchist milieu and no class analysis, let's venture into their secret underground "anarchy club".

Crimethinc claims to not exist in a failed attempt at being both mysterious and poetic, we'll have to start by stating that it does exist, it has a few addresses, a number of books in print and an online shop as well as a number of websites. It is a loose organization which represents a variety of political views a mish-mash of post-leftism, situationism, primitivism and all those "introducing.." philosophy books you don't tell people you read. Anyone can publish under the name or create content using their logo and each "agent" or group operates individually. There is no formal structure, membership or decision making process. One has to wonder whether it's as decentralised as they claim to be, while the hundreds of kids who post on the forum have as much legitimate claim to call themselves part of crimethinc there are really only a vanguard of 20 people maybe less who have had the pleasure of being published under the CWC title and who run the entire show. Calling yourself a crimethincer allows you the illusion that you're a part of something much grander though, when you're a bored suburban teenager that's very important and the well designed publications and impassioned prose in their texts makes for a very inspiring read. The problem is that once you analyse them critically you quickly realise they're barely saying anything at all.

Many aspects of crimethinc reference the Situationist Internationale and a large chunk of their ideas are based around the Situationist concept "the transformation of everyday life". The Situationists were heavily influenced by Marx and CWC are heavily influenced by American consumer culture it would seem. The call to transform everyday is a call to smash the current exploitative system, to participate in the class struggle, an ongoing historical conflict between the proletariat and the ruling class. Crimethinc substitute this class struggle with a teenage individualistic rebellion based on having fun now. Shoplifting, dumpster diving, quitting work are all put forward as revolutionary ways to live outside the system but amount to nothing more than a parasitic way of life which depends on capitalism without providing any real challenge. The arrogance of middle class kids (just like the hippies) supposing to change by world by roughing it as "poor" people for a few years is captured perfectly in the quote on the back cover of their book evasion.

"Poverty, unemployment, homelessness - if you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!"

Condescending, privileged, middle class crap. The only people who could think that poverty is in any way fun are wealthy kids playing at being poor for a few years, the daily reality of poverty, unemployment and homelessness for the average person is very serious and something anarchists should always organise against rather than mock.

The reality of the situation is that you can't boycott your way out of capitalism, dropping out of the system is never going to bring it down if anything you just re-enforce the system by recuperating people’s alienation and desire for revolution by selling them a new lifestyle under the same system. Capitalism is a system of coercion and control, we don’t work to support the system, we work because we need food and shelter and healthcare and the only way to get that under capitalism is with money. The only way we can get money is by selling our labour - the alternative is to rot, that’s Capitalism. I don't want to feed my kids out of a dumpster or have to scam free healthcare if I get cancer, it's not appealing or practical. There's nothing revolutionary about using your white, middle-class, western privilege to remove yourself from the system at the expense of those who remain trapped in it. None of us are free until we all are.

This idolisation of the grifter and scam as a somehow revolutionary tactic has led their followers, and they are followers they certainly don't have much say in the running of the sites and the shop, the informal organisational structure "we're all crimethinc" enforces this, to be mostly bored teenage boys. A quick browse around crimethinc.net will show you this. The more worrying aspect is the "us against the world" mindset many of these youths have. Many view people who work regular jobs as an enemy complicit in the capitalist system, a system they don't fully understand and which crimethinc’s literature never fully explains. They have an embarrassingly liberal interpretation of capital and the struggle against it,

"By your 'support the working class' logic, I guess y'all should feel guilty every time ya boycott any megacrop like Wal-Mart - after all, they've got "working class" clerks workin' there too" – DizzIE

In this quote from a row over a scam to rob tourists (or neo-colonialists as some bizarrely called them), a crimethincer shows up the dangerous lack of understanding of class struggle. Boycotts of multinationals, much like drop-out lifestyles, will do little to bring about the fall of Capitalism which is a social relationship based on wage labour. I do not wish to deny them their right to be drop-outs and live out of bins so long as they realise they will change nothing by living like this. An inflated sense of self importance has convinced them that their chosen path is righteous and all others are brainwashed by the system or are revolutionary beauraucrats.

One of crimethinc’s more recent publications "recipes for disaster:an anarchist cookbook", is indicative of the massive problems with them. The book is a somewhat interesting list of pranks, scams and activist information. Proclaimed as the follow up to "Days of war, Nights of love" this book has many serious shortcomings. Recipes (little more than DIY guides) range from how to organise a black bloc to gynecology, Squatting, and “how to make a bicycle into a record player”. An eclectic mix of information, most of which is crap the rest of which is useless without political understanding. This is meant to be the practice where "days of war" was the theory but unfortunately DOW had no real theory beyond drop out and do what feels good. Organising a black bloc out of a handbook without any understanding of the social conditions which necessitate mass militant anarchist direct action is not just dangerous it's counter-productive to our entire movement. The book shies away from serious revolutionary information like how to organise a union in your workplace, how to organise at school, how to make contact and work with communities in struggle, how to break out of the activist ghetto, how to set up a social centre, how to provide prisoner support or how to support asylum seekers etc. All the activities amount to little more than activist busy-work, something to waste your time with while being a "drop-out", ease your social conscience and not have to do any hard work or compromise yourself by working with people who are complicit in the system. The Antifascist Action guide is well meaning but pathetic, it amounts to a bunch of kids masking up and getting their rocks off by confronting the cops before running off again. This is a common element throughout, these things are listed because they are exciting and dangerous and make you "feel good", not because they are effective forms of revolutionary organising.

Ramor Ryans review of Days of War.. is spot on and does not really need expanding on. DOW is massively plagirised, full of inaccurate and offensive accounts of radical history and tends to define things in very basic terms like good and bad without any solid ideas backing up most of their claims.

"Text, ideas, and graphics are borrowed and pilfered from the Stoke-Newington fanzine Vague, British graphic artist Clifford Harper, French situationist Raoul Vaneigem and indeed, the whole of the Situationist pantheon. They sack the archives of radical sub-culture to compound a falsehood, the basic premise of this book, that it is an instrument for “total liberation.” In reality, CrimethInc’s vision seldom rises above that of a suburban kid rebelling against authority. Mired in the punk rock and crusty sub-culture, the practical application of all this revolutionary theory is apparently realized by forming a band, fucking in a park, going vegan or—oh my God now we’re really fucking doing it!—giving out phony free tickets to the local cinema.9 It soon becomes clear that the real crime here is the way they plunder some of the finest and most invigorating ideas from the end of the 20th century, and render them dull and inchoate." – Ramor Ryan

When thousands of french students recently occupied their universities and trashed their cities in opposition to the introduction of the CPE law one crimethincer had this to say about the organised students;

"When I looked at the situation in France, I often thought that they were not enough dumpster divers collectives!"

What purpose or relevance this person thinks a dumpster diving collective would have served to a mass radical movement beyond getting some old sandwiches which could be looted anyway is beyond me. When mass struggles emerge crimethincers are of course thin on the ground, mass struggle means working with squares and allowing workers to be part of their revolutionary subculture, which just wont do. The book “Anarchy in the age of dinosaurs” published under Crimethinc by the Furious George collective (who each deserve a bullet for crimes against anarchism) is short and poorly written arguing against the idea of mass organisation and for “chaos” and “butterfly wings”, apparently.

“"Folk Anarchy is the name we have given to the arrow aimed at the heart of every dinosaur. We are replacing the mass movement with a scrappy multitude of mutineers, gypsies, sprawling shanties, thieves in the knight and mad scientists”

The lack of any critical analysis and focus on spontaneity are serious shortcomings for crimethinc which lead me to believe they do not believe in revolution and are quite possibly happy to be the kids living on the "edge" of Capitalism, a system whose excess supports their drop-out lifestyles anyway. This would explain why crimethinc have no theory for revolution, how to build to overthrow this system and how to make sure that once we do we hold on to our gains, how to organise a post-revolutionary world so that we don't repeat the failures of the CNT and other historical precedents. A spontaneous revolution leaves the working class no means to defend itself from reactionaries and state socialists. Crimethinc call for a revolution in everyday lifestyles and not life, they seek to define a subculture of individualists who care only about themselves and those immediately around them. A revolution of restless and spoiled middle class Americans that is contemptuous of workers and organised anarchists because in them they see the greatest threat to their bourgeois lifestyles.

The supposedly self-critical analysis in crimethinc’s 10 year report never touched on their failures as listed here. Perhaps this is something these kids will address now and hopefully other anarchists will add to the debate. I spent a few years uncritically spewing out empty crimethinc rhetoric and wasting time with their ineffective tactics and don’t wish to see another generation fooled. I would urge all comrades to seriously consider the easy solutions being peddled by CWC. The world can’t wait while serious revolutionaries are side-tracked by poor ideas and poorer tactics.

“Our demands most moderate are – We only want the earth!”
- James Connolly

Source (http://www.3monkeyz.net/phpBB3/English/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=458)

[JazzRemington]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/boredcat-isbored.jpg

[KC]

Is this a criticism of Crimethinc? I'm not going to bother wasting my time to look at it, but if it is then cheers. It's just unfortunate that the author wasted so much time writing about something so boring and irrelevant.

[bcbm]

This critique must be at least three years old, as the forum it is quoting from went down around then.

[lombas]

Politics áre boring as fuck.

[gilhyle]

Boredom reveals being as a whole - Heidegger :)

[Comrade Rage]

My respect for Proper Tea just shot up hundred-fold. Most of the anarchists I know are opposed to this outfit based on the class-conscious reasons you listed. We may disagree on what comes after capitalism, but at least we agree that capitalism isn't something to be ignored and 'drop out' of.

One of crimethinc’s more recent publications "recipes for disaster:an anarchist cookbook", is indicative of the massive problems with them. The book is a somewhat interesting list of pranks, scams and activist information. Proclaimed as the follow up to "Days of war, Nights of love" this book has many serious shortcomings. Recipes (little more than DIY guides) range from how to organise a black bloc to gynecology, Squatting, and “how to make a bicycle into a record player”. An eclectic mix of information, most of which is crap the rest of which is useless without political understanding. This is meant to be the practice where "days of war" was the theory but unfortunately DOW had no real theory beyond drop out and do what feels good. Organising a black bloc out of a handbook without any understanding of the social conditions which necessitate mass militant anarchist direct action is not just dangerous it's counter-productive to our entire movement. The book shies away from serious revolutionary information like how to organise a union in your workplace, how to organise at school, how to make contact and work with communities in struggle, how to break out of the activist ghetto, how to set up a social centre, how to provide prisoner support or how to support asylum seekers etc.I bought and read Recipies for Revolution and was similarly disappointed. The information in the book was nothing new or different from the myriad 'zines' that the anarchists regularly hand out.:(

[ComradeOm]

What, no mention of Wasted Indeed (http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crimethinc.com%2Ftools%2Fdown loads%2Fpdfs%2Fwasted_indeed.pdf&ei=_nUSSMOzEqS-wQG62Z1c&usg=AFQjCNHu5bwvhBN2wDM__ZRjwo_RgkkheA&sig2=vqwYBlJah62IqoozSFBuSA)?

[Os Cangaceiros]

What, no mention of Wasted Indeed (http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crimethinc.com%2Ftools%2Fdown loads%2Fpdfs%2Fwasted_indeed.pdf&ei=_nUSSMOzEqS-wQG62Z1c&usg=AFQjCNHu5bwvhBN2wDM__ZRjwo_RgkkheA&sig2=vqwYBlJah62IqoozSFBuSA)?


"Sedition, Not Sedation."

:lol:

[Pogue]

I read this book too, thinking it was just what I was looking for, the ultimate criticism of capitalist lifestyle, an exstension of the idea of the Situationists which I found so appealing. Although the book is interesting, I have to agree with alot of the OP's points. Aside from some parts which were, to say the least, inaccurate, such as their description of the city-state of Fiume and it's leader Gabriele D'Annunzio, whom they praise for creating an 'anarchist' region which they describe as being one big party, while failing to recognise D'Annunzio has been called the father of Fascism (his policies and styles, i.e. Blackshirts, Corporatism, cult of identity etc were picked up by Mussolini, with whom Gabriele D'Annunzio was a close ally of for most of his life, until the end of his time when he apparently grew disillusioned with fascism). How Fiume represents true anarchy is beyond me, which further seems to support the OP's point on these being lifestylist individualist children.
The organisation has some points I found inspiring, such as the complete rejection of this lifestyle which I too find abhorent at times, but I'd like to add to the points the OP already made by referring to the point in the book where CWC express their feeling that even the ruling classes are enslaved by our lifestyles (note how they do not use the term capitalism here).
To summarise, I would say that this book, although presenting some points which are exciting and thought inspiring, seem to have a more indivualistic stance on anarchism, being more about lifestyle and personal boredom than collective justice and emancipation. They are situationists who have lost their relation to class struggle and the problems of the working class of the world, thus making them seem somewhat pointless.
If you find this sort of post-leftist lifestyle idealism appealing (as I do, although my faith has been lost somewhat by my own and the OP's criticism of the book and the organisation) then I recomend reading up on the Situationists, or just reading/watching Fight Club, which as a work of fiction gets across the feeling of CWC in a more effective way, before this text.

[The Douche]

Crimethinc is a million times more interesting and more fun to read and talk about than any text any revolutionary leftist has ever put out.

How about we deal with that instead of whining incessently about how wrong crimethinc is.

[black magick hustla]

video games are a million times more interesting than any revolutionary leftist text/and or crimethinc

how about we stop reading anything altogether and instead play videogames

i cam say the same thing about sex and booze, and a lot of non political literature

[black magick hustla]

and drugs dont forget the drugs

[Luís Henrique]

Crimethinc is a million times more interesting and more fun to read and talk about than any text any revolutionary leftist has ever put out.

If your main interest is to have fun, I would suggest that the left isn't what you are looking for.

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

Then by all means consign yourself to an eternity of burrying your nose in silly essays written by Germans and Italians who's names I can't pronounce and who regular people don't give a fuck about.

I would rather see somebody read crimethinc than read the sports page. And sure I would rather see somebody read Malatesta than crimethinc, but thats not going to happen. Crimethinc is something fun and accessible and the revolutionary left seems to hate that.


If your main interest is to have fun, I would suggest that the left isn't what you are looking for.


something fun and accessible and the revolutionary left seems to that that

That, comrade, is some very comedic timing.


As we say in RAAN...fun or death...

[black magick hustla]

the funny thing about crimethincers is that they think they are so relevant an interesting while in reality:

http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/downloads/pdfs/wasted_indeed.pdf

lol

[black magick hustla]

.............we must have sex on our organic farms....................see the stars................eat vegetables forevber

-crimethinc

[The Douche]

The simplest form of the circulation of commodities is C-M-C, the transformation of commodities into money, and the change of the money back again into commodities; or selling in order to buy. But alongside of this form we find another specifically different form: M-C-M, the transformation of money into commodities, and the change of commodities back again into money; or buying in order to sell. Money that circulates in the latter manner is thereby transformed into, becomes capital, and is already potentially capital.
Now let us examine the circuit M-C-M a little closer. It consists, like the other, of two antithetical phases. In the first phase, M-C, or the purchase, the money is changed into a commodity. In the second phase, C-M, or the sale, the commodity is changed back again into money. The combination of these two phases constitutes the single movement whereby money is exchanged for a commodity, and the same commodity is again exchanged for money; whereby a commodity is bought in order to be sold, or, neglecting the distinction in form between buying and selling, whereby a commodity is bought with money, and then money is bought with a commodity. 2 (http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/261/1294/24739/1.html#) The result, in which the phases of the process vanish, is the exchange of money for money, M-M. If I purchase 2,000 lbs. of cotton for £100, and resell the 2,000 lbs. of cotton for £110, I have, in fact, exchanged £100 for £110, money for money.
Now it is evident that the circuit M-C-M would be absurd and without meaning if the intention were to exchange by this means two equal sums of money, £100 for £100. The miser's plan would be far simpler and surer; he sticks to his £100 instead of exposing it to the dangers of circulation. And yet, whether the merchant who has paid £100 for his cotton sells it for £110, or lets it go for £100, or even £50, his money has, at all events, gone through a characteristic and original movement, quite different in kind from that which it goes through in the hands of the peasant who sells corn, and with the money thus set free buys clothes. We have therefore to examine first the distinguishing characteristics of the forms of the circuits M-C-M and C-M-C, and in doing this the real difference that underlies the mere difference of form will reveal itself.

Huh?

Thanks a lot Karl, really cleared things up for us proletarians.

[Luís Henrique]

Then by all means consign yourself to an eternity of burrying your nose in silly essays written by Germans and Italians who's names I can't pronounce and who regular people don't give a fuck about.

So you don't think reading good books is fun. Here is a list of other things that aren't fun at all: being beaten by the police or running from it to avoid being beaten; waking at 4 AM to go to the picket lines; being arrested; not having lunch because you have tasks to perform; staying awake up to midnight discussing politics with comrades - or worse, with non-comrades; running the risk of being shot by a death-squad because or your opinions; trying to explain political points to people who would rather believe in what authorities have to say... and so on.

You can't be a leftist if you aren't willing to do those things and many others in the same gist (in fact, reading German and Italian writers who you are too much ignorant to know is probably the funniest part of it all).

If you want to spend your life having fun, you should consider not being a leftist.


I would rather see somebody read crimethinc than read the sports page. And sure I would rather see somebody read Malatesta than crimethinc, but thats not going to happen. Crimethinc is something fun and accessible and the revolutionary left seems to hate that.

Donald Duck is accessible and fun. That's simply not the point.


As we say in RAAN...fun or death...

In a capitalist society, I fear you don't have that choice.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Thanks a lot Karl, really cleared things up for us proletarians.

You should try to use your brains; if you did, you might come to the conclusion it can even be fun.

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

Too bad that is not a leaflet meant to be spread around in situations. Its a theoretical book you read if you want to find a more scientific explanation of capitalism. Do you think communists when they are doing political work in the street cite Das Kapital?

However, that shitty article on alcohol is a leaflet meant to be proselytized.

This is however, an excellent leaflet:

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2008/apr/tensions-ecuador-colombia

[Zurdito]

Do you think communists when they are doing political work in the street cite Das Kapital?

:huh: do you think that's where I've been going wrong?

[Luís Henrique]

Do you think communists when they are doing political work in the street cite Das Kapital?

I read it aloud to pigs when they try to arrest me. That probably being the reason I was never jailed...

The part on relative surplus value moves them to tears.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

:huh: do you think that's where I've been going wrong?

Do you make sure you are facing Highgate when you recite it? It doesn't work if you don't.

Luís Henrique

[Comrade Krell]

I have no time for those lumpenprole rebellious teens who call themselves anarchists...

Why don't they just go vandalize a starbucks or something and then call it 'revolutionary activity'...

[Bilan]

What do you mean 'why dont they?'...they do...

[bcbm]

Here is a list of other things that aren't fun at all: being beaten by the police or running from it to avoid being beaten; waking at 4 AM to go to the picket lines; being arrested; not having lunch because you have tasks to perform; staying awake up to midnight discussing politics with comrades - or worse, with non-comrades; running the risk of being shot by a death-squad because or your opinions; trying to explain political points to people who would rather believe in what authorities have to say... and so on.


Life is only as fun or not fun as you let it be and the dichotomies being pushed here are absolutely stupid. That applies to all of those things, any of the texts being talked about and a whole mess of other shit. Its all in the approach you take towards everything and if you can just sit back and laugh at the absurdity of any situation, then you´ll probably be a whole lot better off and all the more so if that situation is avoiding death squads! Why be a miserable wreck before you get gunned down? :confused:

[Bilan]

Crimethinc is a million times more interesting and more fun to read and talk about than any text any revolutionary leftist has ever put out.

How about we deal with that instead of whining incessently about how wrong crimethinc is.

...


Then by all means consign yourself to an eternity of burrying your nose in silly essays written by Germans and Italians who's names I can't pronounce and who regular people don't give a fuck about.

That'd hardly an argument, now, is it. It's just being a dick.
We're not interested in either the origins, nor the pronunciation of authors names, we're interested in change, struggle and revolution.


Crimethinc is something fun and accessible and the revolutionary left seems to hate that.

Because its fucking useless crap. You and your gang of crusties and punks might dig that condescending middle class bullshit, but that doesn't make it of value to revolutionary politics at all.
Crimethinc is useless.

You'd have more luck getting people reading a V for Vendetta comic and getting interested (and more of an idea) of revolutionary politics than that tripe.
Specially because of the bullshit 'crimethincers' are involved in.


I would rather see somebody read crimethinc than read the sports page. And sure I would rather see somebody read Malatesta than crimethinc, but thats not going to happen.

Nonsense, I know more people who've read Malatesta than Crimethinc, and the ones who read both generally gather why the former is better than the other.
Not all, unfortunately.

It's hard for any serious leftist to take Crimethinc seriously.
Want to know why? Because its fucking rubbish.

[bcbm]

Because its fucking useless crap. You and your gang of crusties and punks might dig that condescending middle class bullshit, but that doesn't make it of value to revolutionary politics at all.

Well, I and many other dedicated class struggle anarchists I know wouldn´t be here without it, but yeah, no value.

[Luís Henrique]

Life is only as fun or not fun as you let it be and the dichotomies being pushed here are absolutely stupid. That applies to all of those things, any of the texts being talked about and a whole mess of other shit. Its all in the approach you take towards everything and if you can just sit back and laugh at the absurdity of any situation, then you´ll probably be a whole lot better off and all the more so if that situation is avoiding death squads! Why be a miserable wreck before you get gunned down? :confused:

Then you agree with me that reading Heidegger in Hebraic can be... fun?

Luís Henrique

[Comrade Krell]

Anarchists are an arm of the bourgeois state, and as such should be treated as such by the revolutionary working class.

[RedAnarchist]

Anarchists are an arm of the bourgeois state, and as such should be treated as such by the revolutionary working class.

Is Soviet Empire down or something?

[bcbm]

Then you agree with me that reading Heidegger in Hebraic can be... fun?

Luís Henrique

I don´t see why not. And if it isn`t, there must be a way to make it so. Drink, drugs, deconstruction? Or fuck, just do something else. I don´t think there is anything that really matters in life that cannot be made somewhat enjoyable, or at least mocked to keep spirits high. I mean, fuck, I slept in a ditch in the rain last night and thought it was a blast!


Anarchists are an arm of the bourgeois state, and as such should be treated as such by the revolutionary working class.

Just because they send me a check and food stamps every month doesn´t mean I work for them!

[Luís Henrique]

Anarchists are an arm of the bourgeois state, and as such should be treated as such by the revolutionary working class.

Baseless bickering among tendencies is not allowed in the Theory forum. If you can write down a substantial critique of Anarchism (or whatever other -ism), or link to one on the internet, by all means start a thread on that. But no mudslinging, please.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I don´t see why not. And if it isn`t, there must be a way to make it so. Drink, drugs, deconstruction? Or fuck, just do something else. I don´t think there is anything that really matters in life that cannot be made somewhat enjoyable, or at least mocked to keep spirits high. I mean, fuck, I slept in a ditch in the rain last night and thought it was a blast!

And that's the reason why hedonism isn't a valid base for revolutionary action. cmoney thinks reading Marx is boring, and dumpster diving fun; I think dumpster diving is horrible, and reading Marx is fun. Who is right? There is no objective standard, pleasure is entirely subjective.

On the other hand, reading Marx is necessary for revolutionary activity; dumpster diving is not. So, no problems if anyone likes dumpster diving (reading Disney or Crumb, Agatha Christie or Shakespeare, listening to Beethoven or Bon Jovi, Schoenberg or Pink Floyd, biking or playing soccer, chess or Tribal Wars); but it is not a revolutionary activity, and should not be construed as such. Much less using the "fun" of it as an argument.

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

So you don't think reading good books is fun. Here is a list of other things that aren't fun at all: being beaten by the police or running from it to avoid being beaten; waking at 4 AM to go to the picket lines; being arrested; not having lunch because you have tasks to perform; staying awake up to midnight discussing politics with comrades - or worse, with non-comrades; running the risk of being shot by a death-squad because or your opinions; trying to explain political points to people who would rather believe in what authorities have to say... and so on.

I beg to differ, having done many of the things above they have been quite fun and there are few feelings in life that can compare to running from the police knowing that if they catch you its all bad. (please note, I am well aware that you come from a country much different that mine and I do not wish to give the impression that I find myself in the same situations as you, obviously being caught by the police as an active communist in Brazil is gonna be worse than in the USA) And telling those stories later with your comrades have created some of my fondest memories.

I am not a middle class child who knows nothing but squatting and protesting. I dropped out of high school at 16 and got a full time job, I joined the army out of fear that I was going to end up out on the street if I didn't do something quick, and I went to Iraq. I've seen protests and squats, walked on picket lines and distributed newspapers.

I used to be a "revolutionary leftist" of the classical mold. I was a member (and kicked out) of the radical tendency in the socialist party, I was a member of the IWW and I was involved in NEFAC. I got fucked pretty much everywhere I went by other comrades (not in the IWW there was just no activity there). But that is irrelevant. The point is that I know plenty about theory, I have read those authors whose names I cannot pronounce, and still, I stand by my statement that nobody gives a fuck. You can recite that stuff all you want, but I've never seen it go anywhere. I find revolutionary activity to be fun...if you don't, then maybe the left isn't the place for you.

You can go on with your assumption that I am simply a crusty or a punk teenager or whatever, and I'm sure that you will continue with that assumption, but it simply is not true.

I like crimethinc because they produce some intelligent critiques of the left not because they have some kind of a revolutionary theory I feel is all that valuable. Oh and the stickers and posters are cool.

[black magick hustla]

The feeling that the left is a wreck in the US has a kernel of truth, but it has also to do with the fact that the US is the most reactionary country of the industralized world. Crimethinc is only more "popular" in the US because there is a vacuum to be filled because there is no labor movement. Crimethinc, pretty much every else in the world, would just be laughed out of existance.

[Zurdito]

I beg to differ, having done many of the things above they have been quite fun and there are few feelings in life that can compare to running from the police knowing that if they catch you its all bad. (please note, I am well aware that you come from a country much different that mine and I do not wish to give the impression that I find myself in the same situations as you, obviously being caught by the police as an active communist in Brazil is gonna be worse than in the USA) And telling those stories later with your comrades have created some of my fondest memories.

I am not a middle class child who knows nothing but squatting and protesting. I dropped out of high school at 16 and got a full time job, I joined the army out of fear that I was going to end up out on the street if I didn't do something quick, and I went to Iraq. I've seen protests and squats, walked on picket lines and distributed newspapers.

I used to be a "revolutionary leftist" of the classical mold. I was a member (and kicked out) of the radical tendency in the socialist party, I was a member of the IWW and I was involved in NEFAC. I got fucked pretty much everywhere I went by other comrades (not in the IWW there was just no activity there). But that is irrelevant. The point is that I know plenty about theory, I have read those authors whose names I cannot pronounce, and still, I stand by my statement that nobody gives a fuck. You can recite that stuff all you want, but I've never seen it go anywhere. I find revolutionary activity to be fun...if you don't, then maybe the left isn't the place for you.

You can go on with your assumption that I am simply a crusty or a punk teenager or whatever, and I'm sure that you will continue with that assumption, but it simply is not true.

I like crimethinc because they produce some intelligent critiques of the left not because they have some kind of a revolutionary theory I feel is all that valuable. Oh and the stickers and posters are cool.


Don't worry, you will find that many people in any group will call all other groups middle class.

This ignores the basic fact that: 1.) nearly all political groups outside of a revolutionary situation by definition are middle class, because the middle classes have more time and resources to spend on politics and on theory and 2.) working class kids are themselves divided between those who are counter-cultural kids, hard-workers, trade unionists, nationalists, religious, militant atheists, ambitious/aspiring kids, intellectuals, authoritarians, and the vanguard, etc.

We should be addressing the fact that deep divisions exist within the working class and that a wide variety of ideologies have taken hold in the abscence of a real leadership and united movement. We shouldn't keep up with these games that a lot of people play where suddenly an entire movement is dismissed as more middle class than the rest...because it's usually not the case...right now all sections of the left are almost uniformally domianted by the middle classes with a small number of workers or people from working class backgrounds in each movement...right now the parody of different middle class-dominated movements all slandering each other as middle class is not that pleasurable to watch tbh. :lol:

[The Douche]

The feeling that the left is a wreck in the US has a kernel of truth, but it has also to do with the fact that the US is the most reactionary country of the industralized world. Crimethinc is only more "popular" in the US because there is a vacuum to be filled because there is no labor movement. Crimethinc, pretty much every else in the world, would just be laughed out of existance.

Ok...

I am from the US, I am involved with the revolutionary left in the US, I have never been to another country for fun, and have no involvement in the revolutionary left of other countries or any internationals.

Therefor, crimethinc is quite relevant to me and to the movement as a whole from my perspective. I understand that your politics are a thousand times more complex than crimethinc. But your politics are an actual solution to the worlds problems (yes I am a fan of left-communism, and would probably be very interested in being part of the ICC if I felt I could develop the theoretical knowledge they demand from thier membership) and crimethinc is not the solution, shit, its not even politics, and in large part does not claim to be. And those crimethincers who do claim it so are simply fooling themselves, and I don't think many people, including those who identify with crimethinc endorse those feelings.

[Luís Henrique]

I beg to differ, having done many of the things above they have been quite fun and there are few feelings in life that can compare to running from the police knowing that if they catch you its all bad.

That may be your personal opinion. Mine is, few things are worse, and less funny, than running from the police.

Yet I know it is something sometimes has to be done. I did in the past and if necessary - which I hope it isn't - I will do it again.

The only valid conclusions that can be taken from this are...

1. "fun" is not objective; what you find fun is not necessarily what anyone else does.

2. "fun" is not a valid fundamentation to any lasting personal option. Anything important thing you may want to do - be a revolutionary, be an artist, be a criminal, marry, not marry, have a job, not have a job, learn Czech or C++ - will have dozens of "fun" aspects, and dozens of others that are not fun at all. Usually you don't get to have only the sweet pieces; the bitter ones come together.


I find revolutionary activity to be fun...if you don't, then maybe the left isn't the place for you.

Obviously there are some aspects of revolutionary activity that are fun for me. Reading authors whose names you cannot pronounce is one. But this is not what makes me a revolutionary, and I don't believe any serious revolutionary is in it for the fun.

Luís Henrique

[apathy maybe]

On the other hand, reading Marx is necessary for revolutionary activity; dumpster diving is not.
While you have a valid argument in the rest of your post, this really stands out to me as being bullshit.
Reading Marx is not necessary for anything at all. Not even understanding what Marx argued or understanding "historical materialism". Sure, reading Marx maybe useful for gaining an understanding of history and how things work (if you accept Marxian historiography), but it sure as hell isn't required.

Similarly, reading Marx isn't required for being a revolutionary. Being a revolutionary requires objecting to (hating even?) the present system, being willing to use force to over throw it, and organise with others of a similar mindset to convince more people to join you.

Dumpster diving is not a revolutionary activity either. However, it sure as hell doesn't prevent one from being a revolutionary (any more then not reading Marx). Indeed, the mindset of being willing to say "fuck the price system, I'm getting my goods for free", is one step (not a required step by any means of course) on the way to saying "fuck the price system, I'm going to fuck the price system by burning down parliament".

By seeing how wasteful and shit capitalism is, especially if you are forced to dumpster dive (rather then just doing it to save money to spend on other things, such as the airfare to Europe), you can gain an understanding of Capitalism that you cannot get by merely reading Marx.


Oh, and running from the police? Fuck that for a good time, a better time is making them run from you! Of course, that doesn't happen as often.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've run from the cops on more than one occassion, and it was never very fun.

And I think I'd rather read Malatesta than Crimethinc. But that's just my opinion.

[Luís Henrique]

Being a revolutionary requires objecting to (hating even?) the present system, being willing to use force to over throw it, and organise with others of a similar mindset to convince more people to join you.

This is evidently necessary; it is not sufficient though. Someone nostalgic of feudalism may object the present system, be willing to use force to overthrow it and organise to such end - but they will not be a revolutionary.


Dumpster diving is not a revolutionary activity either. However, it sure as hell doesn't prevent one from being a revolutionary

Sure not, nor was it argued otherwise.


By seeing how wasteful and shit capitalism is, especially if you are forced to dumpster dive (rather then just doing it to save money to spend on other things, such as the airfare to Europe), you can gain an understanding of Capitalism that you cannot get by merely reading Marx.

That is, I'm afraid, a fantasy.

I live in a country in which people do that because they have no alternatives to earn a living, not because it is fun or fashionable. The people who do it, usually, are those, among the oppressed, who have the least comprehension of capitalism.


Oh, and running from the police? Fuck that for a good time, a better time is making them run from you! Of course, that doesn't happen as often.

Agreed no doubt. Even better than making them running from us is disarming and dissolving the darn thing.

However... it is one of those things you do only once; so better we don't confuse it with "having fun".

Luís Henrique

[bcbm]

And that's the reason why hedonism isn't a valid base for revolutionary action. cmoney thinks reading Marx is boring, and dumpster diving fun; I think dumpster diving is horrible, and reading Marx is fun. Who is right? There is no objective standard, pleasure is entirely subjective.

Why can't you both be right? Why do you assume there is one solution for everyone, one thing that makes people revolutionary, etc? I don't see why people who love Marx and people who love dumpster diving can't both be a part of tearing this motherfucker down.


On the other hand, reading Marx is necessary for revolutionary activity;

Not really. One only need want a free and communally organized society. Or perhaps a bit more specific than that, but you get the gist.

[PRC-UTE]

Why can't you both be right? Why do you assume there is one solution for everyone, one thing that makes people revolutionary, etc? I don't see why people who love Marx and people who love dumpster diving can't both be a part of tearing this motherfucker down.


First off, he didn't say they were mutually exclusive- he didn't say dumpster diving invalidated one being a revolutionary.

He's clearly saying that the majority of people on this planet who engage in dumpster diving do not do so by choice but out of desperate necessity. It is not a revolutionary activity to imitate scavenging, and it is insulting and patronising to act like it's a profound revolutionary tactic when many are doing the same thing because they are starving. Can you not understand that?

[bcbm]

First off, he didn't say they were mutually exclusive- he didn't say dumpster diving invalidated one being a revolutionary.

I think pointing out that cmoney isn't a fan of Marx and that Marx is necessary for being a revolutionary is a pretty clear way of saying that he is not a real revolutionary. I'm not in favor of calling dumpster diving revolutionary, but I think it can radicalize people in certain situations and open them up to new possibilities, as AM suggests, just like any number of things that aren't revolutionary per se. Why the big need shit on such a suggestion?

[lombas]

D'Annunzio cooperated with anarchists.


I read this book too, thinking it was just what I was looking for, the ultimate criticism of capitalist lifestyle, an exstension of the idea of the Situationists which I found so appealing. Although the book is interesting, I have to agree with alot of the OP's points. Aside from some parts which were, to say the least, inaccurate, such as their description of the city-state of Fiume and it's leader Gabriele D'Annunzio, whom they praise for creating an 'anarchist' region which they describe as being one big party, while failing to recognise D'Annunzio has been called the father of Fascism (his policies and styles, i.e. Blackshirts, Corporatism, cult of identity etc were picked up by Mussolini, with whom Gabriele D'Annunzio was a close ally of for most of his life, until the end of his time when he apparently grew disillusioned with fascism). How Fiume represents true anarchy is beyond me, which further seems to support the OP's point on these being lifestylist individualist children.
The organisation has some points I found inspiring, such as the complete rejection of this lifestyle which I too find abhorent at times, but I'd like to add to the points the OP already made by referring to the point in the book where CWC express their feeling that even the ruling classes are enslaved by our lifestyles (note how they do not use the term capitalism here).
To summarise, I would say that this book, although presenting some points which are exciting and thought inspiring, seem to have a more indivualistic stance on anarchism, being more about lifestyle and personal boredom than collective justice and emancipation. They are situationists who have lost their relation to class struggle and the problems of the working class of the world, thus making them seem somewhat pointless.
If you find this sort of post-leftist lifestyle idealism appealing (as I do, although my faith has been lost somewhat by my own and the OP's criticism of the book and the organisation) then I recomend reading up on the Situationists, or just reading/watching Fight Club, which as a work of fiction gets across the feeling of CWC in a more effective way, before this text.

[PRC-UTE]

I think pointing out that cmoney isn't a fan of Marx and that Marx is necessary for being a revolutionary is a pretty clear way of saying that he is not a real revolutionary. I'm not in favor of calling dumpster diving revolutionary, but I think it can radicalize people in certain situations and open them up to new possibilities, as AM suggests, just like any number of things that aren't revolutionary per se. Why the big need shit on such a suggestion?

Anyone serious about revolution would rubbish that idea.

[Luís Henrique]

Why can't you both be right?

We can be both right about what is fun - or, rather, the idea of "what is right" doesn't apply to fun.

We can't be both right on whether "being fun" is the basis for important decisions on one's life: either one is a hedonist, or not.


Why do you assume there is one solution for everyone, one thing that makes people revolutionary, etc? I don't see why people who love Marx and people who love dumpster diving can't both be a part of tearing this motherfucker down.

I'm sure both can, but the relation of each of these activities to revolution is clearly different. One can as well like soap operas or read Sydney Sheldon, and be a revolutionary - but those things cannot be substituted for actual political activity.


Not really. One only need want a free and communally organized society. Or perhaps a bit more specific than that, but you get the gist.

No, I don't think so. Being a revolutionary is not a "fun" activity. Let me explain why I am saying that. Something "fun", ie, ludic, is something we would repeat. As such, it must be, to a great extent, inconsequential. Playing chess is fun. Each game has its own dynamics, of course, but once the game is over, all the 32 pieces are there ready for another round. Toppling a dictatorship may be wonderful, but it is not "fun". Once you topple it, it is no longer there for another game; it is over, and you don't want to do it again, you want it to be over.

Revolution is not something we want to do over and over again (though unhappilly we may need so) like playing chess or reading sci-fi books. We want to win a definitive victory, so that our enemy is not able to show its ugly head up never again. That may be difficult; it may require actual knowledge and skills to be performed (hating dragons is not enough to be a dragonslayer; you need to have, and know how to use, a sword and some magic spells). Thus, theory is absolutely necessary for a successful revolution. Now, I may allow even that Marx's is not the theory for it (but how would you know that without a theoric critique of Marx?), but some theory is necessary; and it won't be provided by diversions like dumpster-diving.

Luís Henrique

[redSHARP]

they do have some decent ideas, but they are to unrealistic. ignoring and dropping out of capitalism doesnt mean it wont go away! whats wrong with food not bombs? it is a great time and it is based off communities helping each other out with out the need of the state. plus crimethinc is anti-red, so i cant really agree with them.

[Luís Henrique]

D'Annunzio cooperated with anarchists.

Yes, he gave them lots of "fun".

http://www.sednaproducts.com/Prod_images/CASTOR.jpg

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

Dumpster diving is gross and I'm glad I've only ever had to do it a few times.

If you want to point out the negative aspects of crimethinc that is fine, I'm all for it. But I will not concede my stance that crimethinc has something to contribute.

I in no way advocate "dropping out" which I have made very clear and yet people have chosen to ignore it. What I do advocate is rethinking the way we do things and getting the fuck off our high horse of "revolutionary leftism". (be it anarchism marxism-leninism or whatever)

[Unicorn]

While you have a valid argument in the rest of your post, this really stands out to me as being bullshit.
Reading Marx is not necessary for anything at all.
Well, it surely is ideal that all people in the vanguard party have read Marx. I am damn sure that I don't want some idiot who hasn't read Marx in any position of authority.



Not even understanding what Marx argued or understanding "historical materialism". Sure, reading Marx maybe useful for gaining an understanding of history and how things work (if you accept Marxian historiography), but it sure as hell isn't required.
In the USSR even doctors and engineers had to take advanced courses in Marxism to graduate. It is a part of general knowledge.

[The Douche]

Well, it surely is ideal that all people in the vanguard party have read Marx. I am damn sure that I don't want some idiot who hasn't read Marx in any position of authority.


In the USSR even doctors and engineers had to take advanced courses in Marxism to graduate. It is a part of general knowledge.

Maybe we should add secterianism into what has, for the most part, been non-secterian this far.

Good plan, dick.;)

[Unicorn]

Maybe we should add secterianism into what has, for the most part, been non-secterian this far.

Good plan, dick.;)
Are you saying that your immature, condescending and anti-intellectual attitude is not sectarian? You are defending a lifestylist cult which is totally removed from the class struggle of ordinary workers.

[The Douche]

Are you saying that your immature, condescending and anti-intellectual attitude is not sectarian? You are defending a lifestylist cult which is totally removed from the class struggle of ordinary workers.

Allow me to quote myself:


I in no way advocate "dropping out" which I have made very clear and yet people have chosen to ignore it. What I do advocate is rethinking the way we do things and getting the fuck off our high horse of "revolutionary leftism". (be it anarchism marxism-leninism or whatever)

My attitude is not anti-intellectual, it is anti-asshole.

[apathy maybe]

Well, it surely is ideal that all people in the vanguard party have read Marx. I am damn sure that I don't want some idiot who hasn't read Marx in any position of authority.


In the USSR even doctors and engineers had to take advanced courses in Marxism to graduate. It is a part of general knowledge.

Yeah, I don't want anyone in authority. And I fail to see why Marxism is required to be a doctor or an engineer. That's just fucking stupid.

[Unicorn]

Yeah, I don't want anyone in authority. And I fail to see why Marxism is required to be a doctor or an engineer. That's just fucking stupid.
All members of the intelligentsia should be Marxists. Otherwise they are counter-revolutionary.

[apathy maybe]

Well, thank god your sort would be shot by people who have learnt from history, rather then allowed to take control.

Face it, we don't want another USSR.

[Luís Henrique]

Yeah, I don't want anyone in authority.

In this case, you should seek to know as much as you can - including about Marxism. Otherwise, other people will always have some kind of authority over you.


And I fail to see why Marxism is required to be a doctor or an engineer.

Indeed, I don't see why they would. You don't have to be a revolutionary to be a physician or engineer.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

All members of the intelligentsia should be Marxists.

No one becomes a Marxist by taking a graduation-level course on Marxism.

Luís Henrique

[Unicorn]

Well, thank god your sort would be shot by people who have learnt from history, rather then allowed to take control.
Gee, so anarchists want to shoot communists?



Face it, we don't want another USSR.
What the heck was wrong with the USSR? How was it worse than the Czarist dictatorship? The social and economic progress achieved was tremendous.

[Unicorn]

No one becomes a Marxist by taking a graduation-level course on Marxism.
Of course it is not enough to just know about Marxist theory but that is certainly required before one can be a Marxist.

[Philosophical Materialist]

I find these sort of tendencies to be self-indulgent crap on behalf of the bourgeoisie. Sure, they can 'slum it with the proletariat' and 'have fun' but they will always have the family and societal connections to remove themselves from the self-imposed poverty if they so wish. Proletarians have no such easy path of escape.

I also find their mocking of the proletariat to be condescending and reactionary. They will never know what it is like to be exploited as members of the working class.

[misanthroshit]

I also find their mocking of the proletariat to be condescending and reactionary. They will never know what it is like to be exploited as members of the working class.

do you know what it's like to be exploited as a member of the working class?

...sucks to be put on trial for somebody else's opinion of you doesn't it?

[misanthroshit]

i think alot of leftists look down on "crusties" for no good reason. as a member of the working class (credentials check out, see?) and a former bum i can tell you that alot of crusties and homeless people are in the know as far as wanting to destroy the state, about three quarters of them come from working class backgrounds, and many of them actually work part time jobs as well as panhandle or dumpster. of course there are alot of people who just squeegee or panhandle for booze or dope, but it's rare you'll find one who won't readily admit it when asked.

alot of leftists i meet have no understanding about what goes on in the streets, they have no connection with the underclass, and their university education enables them to comfortably spout marx and lenin from ivory towers. then they wonder why they can't make any inroads with the working class. well shit, maybe your ideas are outdated and nobody cares about old timey political parties that are more about honouring dead men and dead ideas than meeting people face to face and learning from them.

[Luís Henrique]

alot of leftists i meet have no understanding about what goes on in the streets, they have no connection with the underclass, and their university education enables them to comfortably spout marx and lenin from ivory towers. then they wonder why they can't make any inroads with the working class. well shit, maybe your ideas are outdated and nobody cares about old timey political parties that are more about honouring dead men and dead ideas than meeting people face to face and learning from them.

And perhaps you are doing better?

Luís Henrique

[misanthroshit]

And perhaps you are doing better?

Luís Henrique

in regards to knowing what's happening in the street, being familiar with the "down and out" section of society, and especially being able to listen to what people actually think about and want? hell yes i'm doing better than most leftist parties i've had contact with. but it doesn't take much really. lots of people do it. they just dump their marxist dogma (if they have any) and stop being arrogant pricks.

[black magick hustla]

Too bad marxism is not about "the poorest you are, the most righteous you are." If you are looking for that, I might suggest a healthy dose of christianity.

And besides, the crustie people I know are not exactly "underclass".

[Luís Henrique]

in regards to knowing what's happening in the street, being familiar with the "down and out" section of society, and especially being able to listen to what people actually think about and want? hell yes i'm doing better than most leftist parties i've had contact with. but it doesn't take much really. lots of people do it. they just dump their marxist dogma (if they have any) and stop being arrogant pricks.

Our problem, though, isn't just "knowing what's happening", it's changing what is happening.

But, by the way, what is happening?

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

Also as I said before, all this anti-social bullshit is only popular in the US. Everywhere else people don't give a shit.

[Philosophical Materialist]

do you know what it's like to be exploited as a member of the working class?

...sucks to be put on trial for somebody else's opinion of you doesn't it?

Yes I am from a working class background and I work in a working class job.

[misanthroshit]

Our problem, though, isn't just "knowing what's happening", it's changing what is happening.

But, by the way, what is happening?

Luís Henrique

wouldn't you like to know?! seriously though, ice cream social next thursday. come on out there's vegan gelatto and dumpstered waffle cones.

[misanthroshit]

Too bad marxism is not about "the poorest you are, the most righteous you are." If you are looking for that, I might suggest a healthy dose of christianity.

And besides, the crustie people I know are not exactly "underclass".

you see the irony in these two statements don't you? maybe you're trying to be funny... but this was kind of my point. marxists are always bringing up who is poorer and therefore more oppressed and therefore more entitled. (to be fair it's not just marxists who do this, it's pretty much any bleeding heart liberal). class consciousness turns into class bias in people who usually have nothing to do with the working class (privileged armchair socialists that read marx and lenin in university and then try and apply it to a section of society they have no contact with, and for all intents and purposes want no contact with. this whole thread seems to be about how bourgeois crimethinc is and how bourgeois homeless people are and how bourgeois everybody else is. how fucking bourgeois is that?

[misanthroshit]

Yes I am from a working class background and I work in a working class job.

oh good we can be friends now. phew.

[misanthroshit]

Also as I said before, all this anti-social bullshit is only popular in the US. Everywhere else people don't give a shit.

maybe this is because the commodity economy is so developed in the US. maybe it's how the class struggle is developing in the US. when your unions are creaking along, when your political groups are just another facet of some game that people who have nothing in common with you play...i don't know maybe there's a dialectical materialist solution here. ha.

but i'm not from the US and i can tell you that most people i talk to are basically "antisocial" in their outlook on the future (i.e. wanting to get off the grid, wanting to burn down their place of employment, wanting to get loaded or fucked up).

(we both know americans are a bunch of dumb heads that smell like boiled hot dogs HAHAHAHA)

[Luís Henrique]

wouldn't you like to know?! seriously though, ice cream social next thursday. come on out there's vegan gelatto and dumpstered waffle cones.

So you have no idea of what is happening... and the conclusion I can come is that you are here to troll. Take this as a formal *warn*ing: trolling is not accepted in this board.

Luís Henrique

[misanthroshit]

So you have no idea of what is happening... and the conclusion I can come is that you are here to troll. Take this as a formal *warn*ing: trolling is not accepted in this board.

Luís Henrique

what? how is this trolling? what do you want me to tell you about what is happening? it's kind of a ridiculous question to begin with. if i tell you what i see happening i'll just be doing what i'm criticizing here: putting words in the mouths of the working class. i don't represent anybody and i don't really want to get into some argument about who is more in tune with the working class. my other replies to marmot kind of sum up what i see and hear. that is nobody gives a crap about marxism, most people are just so fed up with their situation that they want to either escape from the system or destroy it outright. but then again, i don't speak for the working class. and neither do you.

what do you see happening?

[misanthroshit]

seriously though, you didn't even chuckle a little bit when i mentioned vegan gelatto and dumpstered waffle cones? man i thought that was pretty gold.

[RedAnarchist]

what? how is this trolling? what do you want me to tell you about what is happening? it's kind of a ridiculous question to begin with. if i tell you what i see happening i'll just be doing what i'm criticizing here: putting words in the mouths of the working class. i don't represent anybody and i don't really want to get into some argument about who is more in tune with the working class. my other replies to marmot kind of sum up what i see and hear. that is nobody gives a crap about marxism, most people are just so fed up with their situation that they want to either escape from the system or destroy it outright. but then again, i don't speak for the working class. and neither do you.

what do you see happening?

For a start, you didn't need to make so many posts, when you could have done all those in one post.

[misanthroshit]

For a start, you didn't need to make so many posts, when you could have done all those in one post.

i'm sorry about that. i'm computer dumb. i scrolled down to click the quote button on other people's posts so i could put it all in one post but i didn't see a quote thing. i went to do the quote=name thing but there is a semi colon and numbers beside the names and i didn't know what numbers to put. i didn't want to mess it up. again, sorry about that.

edit: it's the little plus button isn't it? shit. woops.

[Wanted Man]

The Edit button.

Anyway, this thread isn't going very far, because nobody has offered any real refutation of the article, which poses valid arguments. The counter-arguments seem to be like this:

1: I'm working class, and I support CrimethInc.
2: Your marxism has no connection to the working class either.
3: CrimethInc is fun and interesting, and lifestylism feels good. Real progressive politics are boring, as is Marx.
4: CrimethInc is good because it criticizes the left. The proletariat is dead, revolution is about having fun and feeling good.

So, in other words, it's all about personal identity, "you too" arguing, subjective value judgements and positions that should be restricted on RevLeft.

Of course, the first 3 points are automatically useless, because they don't tell us anything concrete. The 4th one, however, still does not refute the article. But it doesn't need to, because it's basically a declaration of 'guilty as charged': lifestylists (regardless of their class background, the wrongs of marxism and their own opinions) don't give a shit about proletarian revolution. Hence the name 'lifestylism'. In this thread we have seen the rejection of the existence of the proletariat altogether, in favour of post-modernist 'feel-good' crap. With that knowledge, it's useless to go into the specifics with such people, because their politics constitute an opposing ideology that rejects any real working class revolutionary movement.

[misanthroshit]

The Edit button.

Anyway, this thread isn't going very far, because nobody has offered any real refutation of the article, which poses valid arguments. The counter-arguments seem to be like this:

1: I'm working class, and I support CrimethInc.
2: Your marxism has no connection to the working class either.
3: CrimethInc is fun and interesting, and lifestylism feels good. Real progressive politics are boring, as is Marx.
4: CrimethInc is good because it criticizes the left. The proletariat is dead, revolution is about having fun and feeling good.

So, in other words, it's all about personal identity, "you too" arguing, subjective value judgements and positions that should be restricted on RevLeft.

Of course, the first 3 points are automatically useless, because they don't tell us anything concrete. The 4th one, however, still does not refute the article. But it doesn't need to, because it's basically a declaration of 'guilty as charged': lifestylists (regardless of their class background, the wrongs of marxism and their own opinions) don't give a shit about proletarian revolution. Hence the name 'lifestylism'. In this thread we have seen the rejection of the existence of the proletariat altogether, in favour of post-modernist 'feel-good' crap. With that knowledge, it's useless to go into the specifics with such people, because their politics constitute an opposing ideology that rejects any real working class revolutionary movement.

this is a great reply.

i hope i don't come across as rejecting any real working class movement. what i think needs to happen is more of a broader approach to revolution than the narrow restrictions imposed by most marxist-leninists and some anarchists. but that's probably another thread.

still, great reply. very succinct and now i kind of get where i'm miscommunicating. i suck at internet discussions.

[shorelinetrance]

"introducing.." philosophy books


since i could care less about your original post, care you elaborate on why these books are bad?

i have a few of them and i find them good stepping stones for someone who is new to philosophy

[Luís Henrique]

what? how is this trolling?

You accuse "the left" as a whole of "not knowing what is happening". When asked about what is happening, you have nothing to say, which belies your extremely arrogant and presumptous claim that you are doing something better than "the left".


what do you want me to tell you about what is happening? it's kind of a ridiculous question to begin with.

It was you that brought "what is happening" into discussion. Supposedly, you know what is happening, while the rest of us are utterly ignorant of it. So, if it is a ridiculous question, it is a ridiculous question related to an equally ridiculous claim.


if i tell you what i see happening i'll just be doing what i'm criticizing here: putting words in the mouths of the working class. i don't represent anybody and i don't really want to get into some argument about who is more in tune with the working class.

But that's all that you have been arguing until now.


my other replies to marmot kind of sum up what i see and hear. that is nobody gives a crap about marxism, most people are just so fed up with their situation that they want to either escape from the system or destroy it outright.

You must be kidding. This is evidently a very small minority of people; if "most people" wanted to destroy the system outright, it would be shaking altogether by now. Unhappilly it isn't.


but then again, i don't speak for the working class. and neither do you.

You have made a great effort to fancy yourself as some kind of spokesman for the working class. If you don't want the job, you shouldn't act like that.


what do you see happening?

I think this is a ridiculous question, and I have never claimed to know "what is happening".

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

seriously though, you didn't even chuckle a little bit when i mentioned vegan gelatto and dumpstered waffle cones? man i thought that was pretty gold.

No. Attempts at humour, when embedded in arrogance and anti-intellectualism, fail to have any effect on me.

Luís Henrique

[shorelinetrance]

well i might as well throw my hat into the ring in this thread, in some ways i give it up for crimethinc, at least they are activily "doing something", while alot of the left mulls around old books and just "waits" for something to happen.

just an observation more than anything i guess.

inb4 i get crucified by some left idealogue

[misanthroshit]

You accuse "the left" as a whole of "not knowing what is happening". When asked about what is happening, you have nothing to say, which belies your extremely arrogant and presumptous claim that you are doing something better than "the left".

no i don't think i did. i made sure i put the words "alot of leftists" or "most leftists that i know". if i didn't then it was a mistake on my part and i'm sorry but i'm pretty sure i made sure to point out that i wasn't talking about ALL leftists. i did have a few things to say about what i see happening, i just didn't directly reply to your question because i thought it was a stupid, loaded question which it obviously was.


It was you that brought "what is happening" into discussion. Supposedly, you know what is happening, while the rest of us are utterly ignorant of it. So, if it is a ridiculous question, it is a ridiculous question related to an equally ridiculous claim.

no, i think the whole discussion pertained to "what is happening". that's the flavour i got from this particular gelatto anyway. and when i say i know what is happening i preface it with pretty obvious implications that it is from my personal perspective.


You must be kidding. This is evidently a very small minority of people; if "most people" wanted to destroy the system outright, it would be shaking altogether by now. Unhappilly it isn't.

apparently i didn't make it clear enough that it was most people i come in contact with. also, wanting to destroy the system and actually acting out on it are two fairly different things.



I think this is a ridiculous question, and I have never claimed to know "what is happening".

ok, so you don't know what is happening. we'll forget about the waffle cones.

[Luís Henrique]

no i don't think i did. i made sure i put the words "alot of leftists" or "most leftists that i know". if i didn't then it was a mistake on my part and i'm sorry but i'm pretty sure i made sure to point out that i wasn't talking about ALL leftists. i did have a few things to say about what i see happening, i just didn't directly reply to your question because i thought it was a stupid, loaded question which it obviously was.

Let's see...


in regards to knowing what's happening in the street, being familiar with the "down and out" section of society, and especially being able to listen to what people actually think about and want? hell yes i'm doing better than most leftist parties i've had contact with. but it doesn't take much really. lots of people do it. they just dump their marxist dogma (if they have any) and stop being arrogant pricks.

See, you came out as quite arrogant and condescending here. But, in what it matters, you claimed exactly that you knew "what's happening in the street" and were "familiar with the 'down and out' section of society", plus "being able to listen to what people actually think about and want"

When questioned about it, you had nothing to say. You don't know what is happening in the street, you aren't familiar with the 'down and out' section of society, and it sure it doesn't look like you are able to listen to what people actually think about or what they want. Given the enormous height or your horse, it is quite likely that you project your own thoughts and desires on the people who talk to you.


no, i think the whole discussion pertained to "what is happening". that's the flavour i got from this particular gelatto anyway. and when i say i know what is happening i preface it with pretty obvious implications that it is from my personal perspective.

But you make sure to point out very clearly that your personal perspective is what matters, and that people who don't share it are wuthering idiots.


apparently i didn't make it clear enough that it was most people i come in contact with. also, wanting to destroy the system and actually acting out on it are two fairly different things.

If true, it says a lot about what people you come in contact with. It seems therefore that you are the one who has a restricted circle of contacts, not "most leftists" or "a lot of leftists".


ok, so you don't know what is happening. we'll forget about the waffle cones.

I never claimed to "know what is happening".

Luís Henrique

[Red October]

well i might as well throw my hat into the ring in this thread, in some ways i give it up for crimethinc, at least they are activily "doing something", while alot of the left mulls around old books and just "waits" for something to happen.

just an observation more than anything i guess.

inb4 i get crucified by some left idealogue

Their idea of "doing something" is about as useful as banging your head against a brick wall. But hey, they're having tons of fun so who are we to judge them?

Crimethinc is shit.