Producing and consuming our basic needs under a planned economy

[R_P_A_S]

So I was thinking about why it's so hard for many of us, specially my self to picture what a true socialist system would look like and how it would work.

I think that in the mid 1800's and early and mids 1900's capitalism was just getting wound up. Not everything was so commercialized like it is now. and I think Capitalism really kicked into gear possibly after WWII. The more capitalism expands and finds new ventures and such, the harder it is for people and the new generations to picture their lives with out it.

I mean it's hard to imagine life with out restaurants, casinos, amazing shopping malls, huge fancy trucks and ridiculous cool houses! I know all these are irrelevant when it comes to our basic needs. My point is capitalism has convinced many people that these are needs, and that they should thrive for them. instead they are just wants. We don't need them to live happy and to prosper.

Now I know that we as working class people contribute greatly in the production process of this oppressive system. What's worst is we give the money right back to the capitalist because by default we are consumers. Yes that's the fucked up part. win, win for the cappies. They make us produce what we don't need. and what we need we have to buy. I know I know all of us here know this.

So let me put this question out there for you guys. First of all I find it very very hard to believe that one day Capitalism will just disappear. I guess these whole time I felt that would happen, and I was always uneasy and skeptical about my new found "communist" beliefs, specially when none of you or anyone can tell me "what it would be like under real communism" That's when I realized that maybe we should think about the basics. I'm not claiming to have discovered a "new theory" But I wanna ask this question to you guys..

What basic needs should we produce?

Which of those basic needs do you see your self taking part in the production process? full time? part time? or as a hobby?

and...

What job would you really really want under a planned economic system?


So ok, bear with me... under a planned economy the focus should be production of our basic needs to live well and happy. Now.. how would we offer people entertainment they were used to? Like; casino's, restaurants and huge movie theaters??? hate it or love it... people will still want to have those things around. Should there be like a "capitalist sector" in the city? or allow capitalist states to have their business in our planned economy???

this might sound dumb but stop fucking kidding your selves. You can't just expect people,specially middle class people to adopt your planned economy or worst yet some of you guys utopia plans, right of the bat.
oh wait.. some people here believe killing all "counter revolutionaries":laugh:

all jokes aside. please answer these questions and give your opinon.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I know all these are irrelevant when it comes to our basic needs. My point is capitalism has convinced many people that these are needs, and that they should thrive for them. instead they are just wants. We don't need them to live happy and to prosper.

In case you don't relies, communism is not about allowing every person to get by. There must be by definition a super-abundance of resources, enough for every individual to use and appropriate for their own development and the development of all.

Communism is everything about abundance and nothing about poverty, in case your a little confused


So let me put this question out there for you guys. First of all I find it very very hard to believe that one day Capitalism will just disappear.Of course you would, that makes perfect sense. Capitalism has been abstracted, taken out of it's historical context and been turned into a permanent necessity, something that can not be changed by the will of man. It has been turned from a stage of society defined by certain relations between individuals into a natural and unalterable state of being.

This is a gross untruth. We must smash this conception and reveal capitalism in it's true nature.


specially when none of you or anyone can tell me "what it would be like under real communism"Have you read the Critique of the Gotha Program (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm)? I am surprised, yet at the same time unsurprised by the fact that the "comrades" you have been speaking with have failed as such.


What basic needs should we produce?Basic needs, well I'd assume those necessary for the production and reproduction of human life...

Which of those basic needs do you see your self taking part in the production process? full time? part time? or as a hobby?Well it's essential we make the distinction between socialism and communism. Labour is man's self-fulfillment, his conscious, free and developmental life activity. Labour is not merely part-time or full-time, it is to be human
What job would you really really want under a planned economic system?Again we need to distinguish between the socialist and communist stages of society. Whether or not I live under a planned economy I would rather like a job that I enjoy and allows me to develop.

In a communist society and economic order the division of labour (the origin of classes) is necessarily brought to a close. I no longer am stuck in a particular job or field of work. To use the words of Marx:


While in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.


So ok, bear with me... under a planned economy the focus should be production of our basic needs to live well and happy. Now.. how would we offer people entertainment they were used to? Like; casino's, restaurants and huge movie theaters??? hate it or love it... people will still want to have those things around. The planned economy (I may note, not one centrally co-ordinated by bureaucrats, but rather by workers through their councils), must be focused solely on immediate human needs and the production of use-values and not exchange values.


Should there be like a "capitalist sector" in the city? or allow capitalist states to have their business in our planned economy???A 'capitalist sector' in no-way acts to satisfy human wants and desires as it is concerned with the production of use values (whether those exchange-values produced coincide with human wants and desires, use-values, is another question).


stop fucking kidding your selvesO please, you insult me...


utopia plansYou have obviously been talking to the wrong people or reading the wrong stuff...


give your opinonFix your muddled opinions and mish-mashed views with a good dose of Marx and Engels (http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-Reader-Second-Karl-Marx/dp/039309040X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208831568&sr=8-1)

(I sure hope this post doesn't get deleted accidentally :crying:)

[BobKKKindle$]

You seem very confused. I recommend "The ABC of Communism" (Bukharin, Preobrazhensky) which gives a basic outline of the policies which were adopted by the Soviet government in 1920. This should give you an idea of how society should be organized and answer your questions.


So let me put this question out there for you guys. First of all I find it very very hard to believe that one day Capitalism will just disappear.

Why? Capitalism is, relative to the full scope of human history, a social system which has only emerged recently, and so the idea that capitalism is something eternal or a product of our "nature" is an illusion. It is a transitional system and part of a historical process comprised of many modes of production. The Bolshevik Party showed that it is possible to overthrow capitalism and create an alternative system based on the collective ownership of production and the distribution of goods according to need.

So ok, bear with me... under a planned economy the focus should be production of our basic needs to live well and happy. Now.. how would we offer people entertainment they were used to? Like; casino's, restaurants and huge movie theaters??? hate it or love it... people will still want to have those things around. Should there be like a "capitalist sector" in the city? or allow capitalist states to have their business in our planned economy???

Why would the production of leisure goods require a capitalist sector? Why can't we produce these goods through the state sector of the economy? The USSR was able to produce films, which are today regarded as classics in the history of cinema, without the aid of a private sector.


this might sound dumb but stop fucking kidding your selves. You can't just expect people,specially middle class people to adopt your planned economy or worst yet some of you guys utopia plans, right of the bat.

How does this relate to the production of leisure goods? Why can't the workers decide on which goods should be produced? The property of the bourgeoisie will be taken over by the state and will be subject to the control of the Soviets. If sections of the bourgeoisie conduct attacks against the workers state and attempt to restore capitalism through the use of force, they will be suppressed.

[R_P_A_S]

When i said i don't think Capitalism will just disappear I meant it won't wither away soon after the revolution Im sure there will still be other countries and parties within our society who want this shit system back.

Also when i meant what basic needs we should produce I meant things we consume like food and i dunno, toilet paper?

and I guess one of you wanted me to specify socialism or communism? Lets go with socialism.

AND i know everyones favorite communist paradise aka the USSR had really good films and all. But im not talking about Films. Im talking about the experience. why people pay 20 dollars to go to the movies to walk through this amazing movie theater with kick ass sound, state of the art shit. Im just saying sadly enough, some people are used to that and thats their "freedom" however its not really a need.

[Unicorn]

Economic growth would accelerate significantly under planned economy and there would be an abundance of goods. Skilled industrial workers should make at least $100 000 in the West. People would have a lot of money to spend on entertainment, luxury goods etc.

[R_P_A_S]

Economic growth would accelerate significantly under planned economy and there would be an abundance of goods. Skilled industrial workers should make at least $100 000 in the West. People would have a lot of money to spend on entertainment, luxury goods etc.

I guess entertainment is what im asking about. its just hard to picture getting rid of it the way we are all used to it.

[BIG BROTHER]

A socialist system could produce anything that a capitalist system does, if the workers agree to it. I really don't see what's the problem. And by the way, nobody here considers the USSR a communist paradise.

[Unicorn]

I guess entertainment is what im asking about. its just hard to picture getting rid of it the way we are all used to it.
Well, there were really popular entertainers in the USSR. (Vladimir Vysotsky for example) Popular culture in the post-Stalin USSR was rich.

[ckaihatsu]

I mean it's hard to imagine life with out restaurants, casinos, amazing shopping malls, huge fancy trucks and ridiculous cool houses! I know all these are irrelevant when it comes to our basic needs. My point is capitalism has convinced many people that these are needs, and that they should thrive for them. instead they are just wants. We don't need them to live happy and to prosper.


Capitalism is excellent at commodity production for markets -- overall, though, it's a slapdash, hit-or-miss kind of approach to fulfilling human needs and desires, the chaos of which is only overcome through the rise of cartels -- price-fixing -- the limiting of competition (and consumer choice), and ultimately the dominance of nation-sponsored, military-backed monopolies.

No one is *forced* -- as from a king, noble, or slavemaster -- to adhere to a certain way of life, though of course people have limited options if they wind up having to work all the time for low pay, regardless. There is more chance for personal choice and mobility under capitalism, and, given the means, people can carve out more personalized lives for themselves than if they were glued to a certain plot of land from cradle to grave.

There's nothing wrong with people enjoying what they like, if it's restaurants, casinos, amazing shopping malls, huge fancy trucks, and ridiculous cool houses. No one here is arguing for a Khmer Rouge type of authoritarian control -- that would be backward, dehumanizing, and unnecessary.

There's a lot of stuff that has filtered down to the common person through the rise of industrial, capital-backed assembly line production, which yields economies of scale that we would never see under the village-based 'putting-out' system of homeworkers. Even the poor people of today in outlying, rural areas are able to buy dollar-store kinds of goods made of plastic that have made their lives far easier than if they continued to use traditional, heavier implements.

This is not to apologize for capitalism, though -- the benefits have come at a terrible price of millions of human lives, due to international capitalist warfare, the beaching of entire populations outside of the capitalist system, and for plenty of other reasons.

Back to the "plus" side -- I think there's a lot to be said *for* the rise of mass consumer culture, inasmuch as it liberates individuals from the dogmatic culture of religion. The institutions of religion would put everyone into mental yokes for their entire lives if it could, while mass consumer culture -- if one can afford it -- is often insipid but at least there's some diversity and it can deal with a limited variety of current issues. People can connect with each other, even if it's just in superficial ways, merely by referring to who was on the talk show last night, or by what they saw on the news.



Now I know that we as working class people contribute greatly in the production process of this oppressive system. What's worst is we give the money right back to the capitalist because by default we are consumers. Yes that's the fucked up part. win, win for the cappies. They make us produce what we don't need. and what we need we have to buy. I know I know all of us here know this.


Well, you're certainly correct in that we don't have any say over what's produced -- the means of mass production are not governed democratically, they are governed according to the fluctuations of the markets. Most of what's produced is whatever will make the greatest returns on investment, and in lean times there's more of a tendency for the production of luxury items, since the rich are the only ones still able to participate in the markets while everyone else is broke.

At the same time there are opportunities for regular working people to hang onto some of their wages, mostly through savings, if possible, or building equity in a home -- again, if possible. Many consumer items today, too, are fairly durable and long-lasting and can serve for many years without needing to be replaced. Cars, despite depreciation, can be re-sold for some return of the initial purchase price. This is all more than the average person had under feudalism, just a few generations ago. We could say that the fruits of exploitation are more democratically available than in the past.



So let me put this question out there for you guys. First of all I find it very very hard to believe that one day Capitalism will just disappear. I guess these whole time I felt that would happen, and I was always uneasy and skeptical about my new found "communist" beliefs, specially when none of you or anyone can tell me "what it would be like under real communism"


Well, I got a news flash for you -- communism is here, today! It's just that most people are not part of it. Those who get government bailouts for their shitty, toilet-paper investments are part of it. Those who sit on top of factories employing thousands of sweatshop workers are part of it. Those who are "in the know" and curiously enough never seem to make a wrong move are part of it.

Communism means booking flights in your own air transportation whenever you damn please. It means letting the markets work for you while you sip champagne in your bathrobe, etc. -- you get the point. So we know it exists, it's just that it hasn't filtered down to the masses -- yet. The question is whether we should *wait* for that possibility, or should we speed things along to make that kind of leisure a greater possibility, for more people, sooner...?

We can say that the old capitalism of having to shlep around everything that you yourself are buying and selling is a thing of the past, but even in our current times there are still plenty of people living in dirt-poor conditions. What I'm trying to say is that at any given moment there are *several* modes of production going on, even in the same city...! Fast-forwarding the world to a level-ish kind of communism for *everyone* is not necessarily a pipe dream, but it does take conscious effort and mass agreement on the general points -- something which there is historical precedent for.



That's when I realized that maybe we should think about the basics. I'm not claiming to have discovered a "new theory" But I wanna ask this question to you guys..

What basic needs should we produce?

Which of those basic needs do you see your self taking part in the production process? full time? part time? or as a hobby?

and...

What job would you really really want under a planned economic system?


So ok, bear with me... under a planned economy the focus should be production of our basic needs to live well and happy. Now.. how would we offer people entertainment they were used to? Like; casino's, restaurants and huge movie theaters??? hate it or love it... people will still want to have those things around.


The easiest way to visualize a socialist revolution, heading in the direction of communism, is to just look around and see the condition of the public sector as it exists today. What kinds of things are *currently* socialized? And how can we expand that public sector? The opposite tendency, which is happening all too much -- which is counter-revolutionary -- is privatization. We *don't* want to see the profit motive getting its hands on things -- we *want* to see the working class governing that which it labors at, on a daily, close-at-hand basis. Things like public parks, water systems, air quality, lawful labor conditions (like no child labor) are all policies which are under the public sector -- to privatize them would be irrational and a step backward. To allow the actual rank-and-file of those public resources to also make and enforce policy over those resources would be progressive, and -- arguably -- revolutionary.

You want to know if casinos, restaurants, and huge movie theaters should be kept around? Ask the workers at those casinos, restaurants, and huge movie theaters. They're the ones who ultimately know best. They might even know something about the area in which they work, and if those buildings could be used better by the community's residents for other purposes -- maybe a neighborhood talent night, once a week, or a neighborhood communal kitchen, or a film screening center that's scheduled democratically....



Should there be like a "capitalist sector" in the city? or allow capitalist states to have their business in our planned economy???

this might sound dumb but stop fucking kidding your selves. You can't just expect people,specially middle class people to adopt your planned economy or worst yet some of you guys utopia plans, right of the bat.
oh wait.. some people here believe killing all "counter revolutionaries":laugh:

all jokes aside. please answer these questions and give your opinon.


To ask if we need capitalism in any part of the workings of the world is to ask if we can go 'hands-off' and allow the (crisis-ridden) monetary system to just "magically" (mis-)manage things for us.

If you feel overwhelmed at the thought of even posing the question, just take a deep breath and simply remind people to look at the world, as it is, around them. There's plenty of stress *because* of the chaos of the markets -- right now oil and food prices are ballooning, and it's due to pure speculation, *not* a supply-and-demand thing, as their bullshit ideological rant goes.

I'd rather work at building *towards* a utopia than let the markets bubble in sector after sector, driving up prices for no good reason. Once enough people understand this there would not be a need to spill a single drop of blood as we take conscious control over that which we had to work at bringing into existence in the first place.


Chris



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[R_P_A_S]

A socialist system could produce anything that a capitalist system does, if the workers agree to it. I really don't see what's the problem. And by the way, nobody here considers the USSR a communist paradise.

you'd be surprised...