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cappin
23rd April 2008, 04:10
Reiss said that each of the 16 basic desires outlined in the book influence the psychological appeal of religious behavior. The desires are power, independence, curiosity, acceptance, order, saving, honor, idealism, social contact, family, status, vengeance, romance, eating, physical exercise, and tranquility...Go to:http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/religdes.htm
This is a response to a professor's new theory. Tell me your thoughts. (You can e-mail him too, if you'd like)

...I'm interested in your theory about reasons for religion. I think you did really well in your research of finding our basic needs. Although I believe, myself, that we may be simpler and the reason why we develop individual personalities could be because we actually fall into an environment and adapt to it; not that we have a choice or inclination. For instance, I could go down your list of basic needs and explain how they came to be, but I'll begin with religion.

One doesn't sift through the 1,005 religions available to them throughout the world when they are introduced to one and accept it as true, but rather, they are commonly indoctrinated at a young age to believe as they are told, and often that they will otherwise suffer eternal consequences if not compliant. This is a sad form of brainwashing oppression and leads to people who are made to believe, perhaps later in life, that the real reasons they believe are justified and what they want; instead of what the society that reared them persuaded them to.

Also, if you will consider what I think are the ultimate distinguishing factors of the great divide between people: leadership mentality, herd mentality, and the ranks to and from. Those who devise a religion are what I would call the top leaders, then onto those who promote its popularity through the copying and printing of its text and the discussion and lecturing of its interpretation, the second rank. After we have the creation and distribution, we have the average public masses who take what they're given and are content in its narrow minded, single sourced production.

The reasons may very well be because of our basic desires, as you have theorized, but it is difficult to determine the whats, hows, and whys.
I certainly see a discernable pattern; not only is it prevalent in religion, but in all forms of human structure, like government.

People don't have stronger characteristics by choice, but chance. One may say "I would like to be a more charitable person" but at the same time would need left with an opportunity to be beforehand. He would need to have things to offer and time to do it, and unless he is in the right situation to where he can, he is unable. Or, we could take it a step further and have somebody who wants to be the president of the united states, but he doesn't have the proper amount of money or educational resources to enter into politics. He would like to be wealthy and educated but he can't find the right opportunity once again, for he's a mechanic in south kentucky who only knows what he was raised on. He wants to move to the city in hopes of a more reasonable salary so he can attend a college, but it's no guaranteed success and, alas, he hasn't the financial aid to travel. The funny thing is, these people only want what they do because they've somehow been conditioned to through the economy and the like.

Our only drives are desire, whatever else is involved is environmental circumstance. One desire may lead a million into its clutches, as they're unmotivated and have fallen prey to the more dominant . They want things made easy because the easier life is made for them, the less pain they will endure. At the same time, their lives are entirely less gratifying. There are, however, reasons for the strong and weak of our society; all pointing towards chance.

And finally, I must remind you that you could classify one of our natural desires as "wanting a pink pony" but, of course...

cappin
23rd April 2008, 04:51
--

Here's a diagram I threw together with paint shop, so excuse the unevenness.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/abc55555/pyramid.jpg

cappin
23rd April 2008, 19:51
Come on people. This is a bit more mentally stimulating than the "why???" thread.

cappin
23rd April 2008, 19:56
This was his response:

...The primary motive for religiosity is honor -- that is, to show loyalty to one's ancestors by embracing their religion and morals. Hence, the phenomenon of "honor killings," which are murders suggested by the values of one's ancestors.

The psychology/counseling industry is all based on the idea of changing people. It doesn't work very well. Instead, we should match people to situations that naturally motivate them, where they can thrive, without having to change. Further, we should teach people how to make life decisions based on their values and life motives. Better to marry the right person to begin with, than to need a counselor to teach you how to get along with somebody else.

Steven Reiss

eyedrop
23rd April 2008, 20:23
Dobble post, off for a few beers now.

eyedrop
23rd April 2008, 20:35
He wants to share peoples desires into 16 basic desires? I'm sure I understood exactly what he meant and I'm not really that keen on reading his entire paper. What is the reason to do that? Could you explain the pyramid too?

I don't find it necessary to find why people turn religious it makes perfect sense for me. People doesn't always follow their sences and it's takes some soulsearching to change your view on the world. I don't see the reason to why I would need to know exactly why I only got time to learn a small bit of human knowledge. The rest is up to the physiologians. Physiology is not one of my interests so I let those who know it deal with it and see what results they have.


The psychology/counseling industry is all based on the idea of changing people. It doesn't work very well. Instead, we should match people to situations that naturally motivate them, where they can thrive, without having to change. Further, we should teach people how to make life decisions based on their values and life motives. Better to marry the right person to begin with, than to need a counselor to teach you how to get along with somebody else.


Kinda agreed except that peoples values changes all the time. If you marry a person that is right for you now she may not be the right for you in thirthy years time, or even in a years time.

Scimmed the article a little and found
Previous psychologists tried to explain religion in terms of just one or two overarching psychological needs. The most common reason they cite is that people embrace religion because of a fear of death, as expressed in the saying ‘there are no atheists in foxholes,” Reiss said.
Could you explain the saying? What's meant with atheists in foxholes? I agree with him with that religion is more advanced just fear of death, but my understanding of physiology has no hope of ever understanding it near complete enough to say anything about it.

I can only say it's advanced, keep up the good work in trying to understand our thoughts.

cappin
24th April 2008, 07:35
Thanks for the reply, eyedrop.


Could you explain the pyramid too?
Think of it like this:

A tree starts as a seed, grows, and bears fruit. This is not only a property of trees, but can also be applied to the very precise way humanity begins, branches, and brings forth.

cappin
24th April 2008, 07:38
Update: The next e-mail to Professor Reiss.

...Honor is ranked #1 among a countless array of possibilities. I'm curious of how you came to that conclusion. I don't doubt its likelihood, but I see no evidential confirmation.

I'm not exactly being liberally complimentary to the religious here when I say it's out of fear that we initially submit to higher super powers or authoritative figures.

And honor, in a nutshell, is an expression of fear; the fear of dishonoring/being cast away from loved ones and background. In other words, it may direct us to an even more basic instinct: that being the carrying forth of one's self to generations, which I believe, is the course of all life. "Honor killings", then, would be explained by the purpose of one's life being lost and, therefore, leading one to feel as though their lives are no longer worth living. As Freud once observed; we are centered around sexual desires.

Back to religion,

Perhaps Nietzsche will be of enlightenment. It is idealism, in the sense that instead of exposing our natural states; we degenerately suppress them in shame. We have evolved into primates who want to be god-like; all knowing. So we imagine that we have descended from the heavens; a realm that pacifies curiosity. And that if we can't, in our lifetime, understand the universe we inhabit, that by make believing we have, will be given a sense of fulfillment- completely at the expense of ignoring reality. We are such arrogant creatures that we fear admitting to naivety. Arrogant because we are dead set on instinct and it tells us a body conduced of many is wiser, stronger, and insures a greater personal life span. Assuredness in one's self is usually a sign of social belonging; and insecurity often due to misplacement. On the other hand, the confidence of a leader is placed in the fact that the ones they are leading respect and support them in their efforts, and how indubitable of them to use this for their advantage i.e. by using the followers to assist with more personal ambitions.

We are ridiculously animalistic and, yet deny as we may, here we have human behavior upon the threshold of the animal kingdom.

I believe religion in all actuality can be reduced to loneliness; intimate desires unanswered. These desires being present for the sole reason of reproduction and ascendence, but a false perception as such.

"The psychology/counseling industry is all based on the idea of changing people. It doesn't work very well. Instead, we should match people to situations that naturally motivate them, where they can thrive, without having to change. Further, we should teach people how to make life decisions based on their values and life motives. Better to marry the right person to begin with, than to need a counselor to teach you how to get along with somebody else."
Touche. Might I add throughout the world we have uneducated, starving people who need so much more. The pettiness of American life and their supposed "needs" disgusts me. We are so very fortunate to be such a greedy and pious nation of irresponsible leaders with no regard to fellow men; fortunate because we are in the position to where we can change their lives. I don't sit well with small scale, homeland problems. An american couple is getting counseling because they need help with paying their bills and their child is misbehaving. I really can't sympathize with such bogus, insignificant trivialities when we have a world of people who need real help that they aren't receiving.

eyedrop
7th May 2008, 04:17
Thanks for the reply, eyedrop.


Think of it like this:

A tree starts as a seed, grows, and bears fruit. This is not only a property of trees, but can also be applied to the very precise way humanity begins, branches, and brings forth.

So you mean that humanity first establish ideas, then spreads them and then adheres to them? How would they else do it? One could maybe switch spreads and adheres though.


Unfortunately most of this reads as greek for me. M ignorance in the fields of psycology is great. (I can't even spell the word properly... There finally got it after my third try.) I can't really discuss this with any inteligence.

Dean
7th May 2008, 06:19
Go to:http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/religdes.htmAnd finally, I must remind you that you could classify one of our natural desires as "wanting a pink pony" but, of course...

The fear of moral aloneness.

One of the most central fears of man is to be alone in his moral thinking. To think that a social enemy should die is all fine and well: you have a whole mass telling you the same thing. But to be the only person who wants to kill someone, or the only person who believes in a certain ruleset, is terrifying. It is a distinct seperation between yourself and humanity. So people "Escape from Freedom" by subsuming their mental capacities into a social movement, i.e. Christianity or Islam. It grants one direction, guidance, and above all a connection to humanity. You feel as if you have become one with humanity, which is fine, except that the way it occurs is via a perverse affront to human dignity.