Reasons why the bolivarian pro communist revolution in Venez

[BatistaNationalista]

Reasons why the bolivarian pro communist revolution in Venezuela is hated by the 80% of the venezuelans (including the poor people)

-$95.000.000.000 is the total of the money that Venezuela has got from the OIL in these 3 years and the people ask themselves, where is that money? more poors, more misery... where did that money go?

-With the bolivarian pro communist goverment of Chavez the corruption is worst than ever.

-The criminals were liberated from jail to join the Bolivarian Circles to defend the revolution.

-The hospitals and schools and universities now are a disaster.

-There is no money to pay the medics, proffesors, teaches, ect. Instead Chavez use that money to pay the bolivarian circles to create panic.

-Chavez started 3 years ago with 70% of popularity and now he has only 20%... even the poor people hate him.

-The inflation is now at 19% and growing.

-Chavez received the country in february of 1999 with only 11% of unemployment, now the unemployment is in 22% and by the end of this year (if he isnt overthrown before) the unemployment is going to be on 25%.

-The industries and enterprises broke.

-The factories of the most industrialized city of Venezuela (Carabobo) do not work anymore, because the industries and enterprises broke and there is no money to maintain the factories and the employes or workers.

-The crime is now skyrocketing compared to 3 years ago.

-Chavez is trying to disband the venezuela armed forces (FAN) because he knows the FAN dislike him for betraying the country allowing cuban agents to penetrate the country and allowing colombian guerrillas to use the venezuelan territory as a base. His plan is to disband the FAN to use his BOLIVARIAN CIRCLES (criminals and mercenaries) to help him to stay in power.

- 4 snipers that killed people on abril 11 have been identify, 2 of them (Mayor Avil?n D?az, comisario Rodr?guez Orta) are from the DISIP (like the KGB or GESTAPO here in venezuela) and the other 2 (mayor Su?rez Chourio y teniente coronel Alejandro Maya Silva) are from the military faction that is loyal to chavez.

- The people that were shooting with pistols on abril 11 that were caught on camera, were from the MVR (Movimiento Quinta Republica) the political party of Chavez and one of them confesed that he was obligated to shoot to the people or he would lose his job.

-The people in the goverment before being in the goverment were people of the low and middle class, now in three years they have expensive cars, their childrens study in expensive school, they live in expensive houses. In other words they live like kings. And that is without talking about the clothes that Chavez uses. Chavez uses a $25.000 watch, clothes around $1000 and $20.000. What a great revolutionary this guy, he is living like a king, while venezuela is getting everyday poor. And in the next month he is going to give another economic measure that is going to make more poor the people.

-The economy is about to collapse, the social situation in the same position, and the military too. Chavez the most hated person in Venezuela. Despite what people from outside of venezuela (who dont know anything) say, the reality is that 55% of the Venezuelan people want a COUP and the other 45% support a constitutional end of the chavez regime.

The statistic and information come from http://www.globovision.com , http://www.el-nacional.com and the Venezuelan Bank.

[Mazdak]

Then why did these people who hate him save him from the Coup??? Because they hated him enough to put him back into power to "oppress" them?? You idiot

[Guest]

The people of Venezuela didn't put him back in power. It was the bolivarian circles trained and helped by Farc. Only an ignorant minority supports Chavez in Venezuela.

[peaccenicked]

Have nt we had this debate before and was it not demonstrated that Chavez had majority support.

[Guest]

Demonstrated that Chavez had majority support????? Hahahahahahahah....
Thank you my friend for bringing laughter back into my life!
That would be a tough one to demonstrate, given that it is NOT TRUE. Just in what part of the World do you live? Very far away from Venezuela I take it...

[Capitalist Imperial]

another failing communist regime?

imagine that

[vox]

So, wait. You mean the massive demonstrations in the streets AFTER the coup, the ones with people demanding Chavez be returned, didn't actually happen? Oh. Okay. I believe you.

vox

[vox]

"another failing communist regime?

"imagine that"

Another right-winger without any facts? Imagine that.

Perhaps, CI, you'd care to explain why the IRI released a memo after the coup indicating it had played a role (http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/iri-ven.htm)? There's a difference between a failing regime and one that is being overthrown by a small group of elite assisted by the USA.

And, according to a former US intelligence officer (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0429-01.htm), the US played a role.

It's never been explained, of course, why the US would waste time and money destabilizing governments that you right-wingers tell us are doomed to failure in the first place. It can't be for the sake of freedom and democracy, unless you call Pinochet's regime both democratic and free.

Hmmm. You boys can't even keep your own bullshit straight, can ya?

vox

[Guest]

A "small group of elite"? I don't think so. Unless you want to call most of the people of Venezuela a small elite.

Chavez is a big asshole that started his government by going to chat with Saddam Hussein and promising free oil to Cuba. Most of the people of Venezuela despise him, and most were celebrating when the coup happened.

It is not at all a small group sir. Chavez holds to power with the help of Castro and Colombia's leftist guerrillas. A once prosperous economy is now going down the drains.

And get YOUR bullshit together. How obvious it is that you actually never been to Venezuela. The massive demostrations are happening now, and were happening before the coup and they are AGAINST Chavez. They outnumber by far the demostrators from Chavez, that usually are ignorant peasants that Chavez brings in buses into the city (paid) to demostrate.

And so what if the US had to do with the coup, it is an honorable task to try to help a country get rid of a scum like Chavez.

[Mazdak]

And guest, who asked the US to intervene, it isnt aour business. We should stop trying to police the rest of the world. If the majority wanted Chavez out, he would be out, it is that simple. They had the chance, and never took it. And if Castro supports Chavez, that is a + in my book...

[Guest]

Actually the US didn't play any major role in the coup. It knew about it but it was mostly the Venezuelans who organized it and took it into effect. The coup was a result of the discontent of the people with Chavez. People had been demostrating against Chavez for a long time before the coup and continue to do so after it failed.

And no, it is not as simple as you see it. The guy controls a lot of resources and political and military power. He also controls great part of the press, manipulating the information. It is pretty easy for him to hang on to power even despite the discontent of his people.

[vox]

"They outnumber by far the demostrators from Chavez, that usually are ignorant peasants that Chavez brings in buses into the city (paid) to demostrate."

He was able to do this even after the coup? Forgive me for being incredulous.

Also, we know that the media in Venezuela are very much against Chavez and offer extremely biased coverage, often not mentioning pro-Chavez demonstrations at all, despite your assertion that Chavez controls the media, something that no one else has said.

But, you've shown your hand already. You don't think that democracy is a good thing. You don't like Chavez, who was elected, so you think that it's okay to have a coup. Even further than that, your elitist attitude shines through quite brightly in your remark about the "ignorant peasants" who, since you don't support the same things, quite obviously shouldn't have the right to have a say in how the country is run. Pure capitalist elitism, and you're the living embodiment.

You've no credibility at all now, guest, and your lies won't be believed.

vox

[Guest]

Ok, here we go. First of all, you have no idea what life in Latin America is like. I know it because I am from Latin America, I actually have lived right next door to Venezuela for most of my life. So forgive me for calling the peasants ignorant, but that is the truth and I don't say it in a demeaning way. It is not their fault that they couldn't get an education. But either way, the fact is that for whatever the reasons, they didn't get it and they are ignorant of the World around them. The lucky ones scarcely managed to learn how to read and write. But none of them really have a profound political knowledge, they just know that their lifes suck (economically speaking) but they don't know the reasons why. This have been used by corrupt politicians, such as Chavez, over and over to make populism. They just tell these people beautiful things they want to hear, put the blame of everything on the rich, and promise them things that are impossible to accomplish.

There are two kinds of media in Venezuela. One that is government controlled and one that is or at least tries to be independent. The independent media has been taking a lot of heat by the government by actually reporting what is happening and the true incomformity of the people.

The state controlled media on the other hand are the ones being extremely one sided and only focusing on the few pro-Chavez demostrations.

But since I am sure that you Mr.Vox, are not going to believe me, I cordially ivite you to Venezuela so you can have some real knowledge, instead of just babbling about things you don't know. You can go to Caracas and see for yourself that the majority are definitely not pro-Chavez demostrations, they are anti-Chavez, and that the media that tries to cover this are often assaulted by the police.

I advise you to get better informed, and get first hand information before posting so much bullshit. Stop reading so much leftist propaganda and go check it out for yourself, you might surprise yourself.

[Guest]

Oh, and by the way, I do like democracy. Although unfortunately in Latin America where there is so much corruption and lack of education it sometimes doesn't work very well. And unfortunately people sometimes don't have the ability to discern what of what polititians are saying is true and what is just empty unfullfillable promises and rhethoric. And there is pretty much nothing that holds polititians accountable for what they say once they get into power. Once they get into power they do pretty much whatever they want. And the only thing the people can do is demonstrate on the streets, as they are doing.

And why is it not not ok to have a coup against Chavez, but it was perfectly alright for Castro to take power by force in Cuba? There was a democratically elected governement there too as far as I recall...

[Guest]

And yet again vox leaves the ring when things get a little tough....!

[Mazdak]

I must once again bring this up.. What about Allende? Was he not good? or do you think Pinochet was a nice guy? Whatever happens, the US should stop intervening. It is none of our business.

And if Castro was so hated, how come the Cubans rallied behind him during the bay of pigs and cuban missile crisis?? Not because they hated him

[Hattori Hanzo]

Quote: from vox on 10:06 pm on July 20, 2002
"another failing communist regime?

"imagine that"

Another right-winger without any facts? Imagine that.

Perhaps, CI, you'd care to explain why the IRI released a memo after the coup indicating it had played a role (http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/iri-ven.htm)? There's a difference between a failing regime and one that is being overthrown by a small group of elite assisted by the USA.

And, according to a former US intelligence officer (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0429-01.htm), the US played a role.

It's never been explained, of course, why the US would waste time and money destabilizing governments that you right-wingers tell us are doomed to failure in the first place. It can't be for the sake of freedom and democracy, unless you call Pinochet's regime both democratic and free.

Hmmm. You boys can't even keep your own bullshit straight, can ya?

vox



HA HAHA! GO VOX!

[Hattori Hanzo]

Quote: from Guest on 5:16 pm on July 22, 2002
Ok, here we go. First of all, you have no idea what life in Latin America is like. I know it because I am from Latin America, I actually have lived right next door to Venezuela for most of my life. So forgive me for calling the peasants ignorant, but that is the truth and I don't say it in a demeaning way. It is not their fault that they couldn't get an education. But either way, the fact is that for whatever the reasons, they didn't get it and they are ignorant of the World around them. The lucky ones scarcely managed to learn how to read and write. But none of them really have a profound political knowledge, they just know that their lifes suck (economically speaking) but they don't know the reasons why. This have been used by corrupt politicians, such as Chavez, over and over to make populism. They just tell these people beautiful things they want to hear, put the blame of everything on the rich, and promise them things that are impossible to accomplish.

There are two kinds of media in Venezuela. One that is government controlled and one that is or at least tries to be independent. The independent media has been taking a lot of heat by the government by actually reporting what is happening and the true incomformity of the people.

The state controlled media on the other hand are the ones being extremely one sided and only focusing on the few pro-Chavez demostrations.

But since I am sure that you Mr.Vox, are not going to believe me, I cordially ivite you to Venezuela so you can have some real knowledge, instead of just babbling about things you don't know. You can go to Caracas and see for yourself that the majority are definitely not pro-Chavez demostrations, they are anti-Chavez, and that the media that tries to cover this are often assaulted by the police.

I advise you to get better informed, and get first hand information before posting so much bullshit. Stop reading so much leftist propaganda and go check it out for yourself, you might surprise yourself.



Where are you living?

[Hattori Hanzo]

Ok, here goes...

"Reasons why the bolivarian pro communist revolution in Venezuela is hated by the 80% of the venezuelans (including the poor people)"

LOL, i thought only 20 % of the population was poor... idiot

"$95.000.000.000 is the total of the money that Venezuela has got from the OIL in these 3 years and the people ask themselves, where is that money? more poors, more misery... where did that money go?"

into the pockets of those that were involved in the bussiness, duh! if they stopped paying them, they would stop working!

"With the bolivarian pro communist goverment of Chavez the corruption is worst than ever."

LOL! LOL! LOL! note the words "Pro"
cause it's cappie until it's completly communist (or socialist)

"The criminals were liberated from jail to join the Bolivarian Circles to defend the revolution."

SO?

"The hospitals and schools and universities now are a disaster."

OH yea, they have been the best since big bad Chvez was democratically elected...

"There is no money to pay the medics, proffesors, teaches, ect. Instead Chavez use that money to pay the bolivarian circles to create panic. "

LOL, let me tell you... pull yourself out of the bullshit, batisita

'Chavez started 3 years ago with 70% of popularity and now he has only 20%... even the poor people hate him."

then why were there massive protests to return him to power after the Coup d'`etat?

"The inflation is now at 19% and growing."

wake up! that's capitalism! it has ups and downs

"Chavez received the country in february of 1999 with only 11% of unemployment, now the unemployment is in 22% and by the end of this year (if he isnt overthrown before) the unemployment is going to be on 25%."

LOL, yeah, he's just firing em left and right! LOL!

"The industries and enterprises broke."

LOL on what? oh, and if you meant to insert "are" in that, then that is bullshit. the oil industry is booming

"The factories of the most industrialized city of Venezuela (Carabobo) do not work anymore, because the industries and enterprises broke and there is no money to maintain the factories and the employes or workers. "

no

"The crime is now skyrocketing compared to 3 years ago."

well you seem to make his government seem so ruthless, how is this so?

"Chavez is trying to disband the venezuela armed forces (FAN) because he knows the FAN dislike him for betraying the country allowing cuban agents to penetrate the country and allowing colombian guerrillas to use the venezuelan territory as a base. His plan is to disband the FAN to use his BOLIVARIAN CIRCLES (criminals and mercenaries) to help him to stay in power. "

once again, horrible speculation based on crappy information. simply, no

"4 snipers that killed people on abril 11 have been identify, 2 of them (Mayor Avil?n D?az, comisario Rodr?guez Orta) are from the DISIP (like the KGB or GESTAPO here in venezuela) and the other 2 (mayor Su?rez Chourio y teniente coronel Alejandro Maya Silva) are from the military faction that is loyal to chavez. '

what the fuck? learn english, danm it! oh, and like the CIA is SOOO much better! LOL

" The people that were shooting with pistols on abril 11 that were caught on camera, were from the MVR (Movimiento Quinta Republica) the political party of Chavez and one of them confesed that he was obligated to shoot to the people or he would lose his job."

what can i say, it's a competitive post

"The people in the goverment before being in the goverment were people of the low and middle class, now in three years they have expensive cars, their childrens study in expensive school, they live in expensive houses. In other words they live like kings. And that is without talking about the clothes that Chavez uses. Chavez uses a $25.000 watch, clothes around $1000 and $20.000. What a great revolutionary this guy, he is living like a king, while venezuela is getting everyday poor. And in the next month he is going to give another economic measure that is going to make more poor the people. "

WTF? are you stalking President Hugo Chavez? this is bullshit...

"The economy is about to collapse, the social situation in the same position, and the military too. Chavez the most hated person in Venezuela. Despite what people from outside of venezuela (who dont know anything) say, the reality is that 55% of the Venezuelan people want a COUP and the other 45% support a constitutional end of the chavez regime. "

the military had a fucking coup d'`etat, and then the people brought him back

"The statistic and information come from http://www.globovision.com , http://www.el-nacional.com and the Venezuelan Bank."

I admire you for having a source, mone being CNN, New York Times, probably some Latino friends of mine...

Batista, i don't think you (or i, either, but probably better than you) understand Latin America! most of your critisism is coming down on capitalism (the credible critisism)

[Guest]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:13 am on July 25, 2002
I must once again bring this up.. What about Allende? Was he not good? or do you think Pinochet was a nice guy? Whatever happens, the US should stop intervening. It is none of our business.

And if Castro was so hated, how come the Cubans rallied behind him during the bay of pigs and cuban missile crisis?? Not because they hated him


Pinochet was a great guy, he restored law and order into Chile. Thanks to that Chile has now one of the strongest economies in Latin America.

I am not so sure the cubans really rallied behind him as you say. Cubans are not free to openly express opinions of discontent, so hard to know.

Anyway that has nothing to do with the argument. Even if in fact the cubans did have rallied behind Castro or not, he overpowered a legitimate democratically elected government. So why should you get all upset for the way Pinochet came into power or the coup in Venezuela and then find it ok in the case of Castro.

So coups are only ok when they are perpetrated by the left, is that the logic?

[Guest]

[/quote]

Where are you living?
[/quote]
I have lived in Colombia for most of my life, and I've been to Venezuela plenty of times. I also have good friends there.

[Guest]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 2:56 am on July 25, 2002
Ok, here goes...

"Reasons why the bolivarian pro communist revolution in Venezuela is hated by the 80% of the venezuelans (including the poor people)"

LOL, i thought only 20 % of the population was poor... idiot

Hey can't you read, it said INCLUDING, it didn't say exclusively the poor people you idiot.



"$95.000.000.000 is the total of the money that Venezuela has got from the OIL in these 3 years and the people ask themselves, where is that money? more poors, more misery... where did that money go?"

into the pockets of those that were involved in the bussiness, duh! if they stopped paying them, they would stop working!


Oh, common, you can do better than that. Of course they payed the employees, but what this statement is referring to is the money the government received in taxes for the oil exploration you dumb ass.



"The criminals were liberated from jail to join the Bolivarian Circles to defend the revolution."

SO?

So? They are criminals, they have commited crimes!!! They should be in jail. Have you heard about a thing called justice. Does it rings a bell at all?



"The hospitals and schools and universities now are a disaster."

OH yea, they have been the best since big bad Chvez was democratically elected...

???????????????? Right.



'Chavez started 3 years ago with 70% of popularity and now he has only 20%... even the poor people hate him."

then why were there massive protests to return him to power after the Coup d'`etat?

There weren't any massive protest you moron. Can't you read?? There were some minor protests, the massive protests have always been against Chavez. You have a pretty distorted picture of what is going in Venezuela, I bet you haven't ever even been there and just learn on your "facts" from pro-communist pro-socialist propaganda websites.



"The inflation is now at 19% and growing."

wake up! that's capitalism! it has ups and downs

No that is not capitalism. That is mismanaged capitalism. With sound economic policy inflation can be kept low as there are many examples.


"Chavez received the country in february of 1999 with only 11% of unemployment, now the unemployment is in 22% and by the end of this year (if he isnt overthrown before) the unemployment is going to be on 25%."

LOL, yeah, he's just firing em left and right! LOL!


No dumb ass, he is not firing anyone but his economic policies are destroying the economy and the industries that give employment.



"The industries and enterprises broke."

LOL on what? oh, and if you meant to insert "are" in that, then that is bullshit. the oil industry is booming

The oil industry is booming??? hahahaha... that's a good one.
Well there is a lot of oil in Venezuela, there is no question about that, there has always been and Chavez has absolutely nothing to do with that. But the industry is not booming I am afraid, thanks to Chavez policies Venezuela now hast to give away oil to Cuba pretty much for free.



"The economy is about to collapse, the social situation in the same position, and the military too. Chavez the most hated person in Venezuela. Despite what people from outside of venezuela (who dont know anything) say, the reality is that 55% of the Venezuelan people want a COUP and the other 45% support a constitutional end of the chavez regime. "

the military had a fucking coup d'`etat, and then the people brought him back

Yeah, right "the people" brought him back. This is so ridiculous this guy is clueless.

[new democracy]

its look like chaves is a real dictator. but uts look like most of the people really support him. what the fuck is going on?

[vox]

ND,

Chavez was elected. He's not a dictator.

As for what happened, he was removed from office in a coup (which was cheered in the US media (http://www.fair.org/press-releases/venezuela-editorials.html), which seemed to momentarily forget that they were supposed to support democracy, not coups) and he was returned to office 48 hours later due to popular protest in the streets.

It also appears that the USA, which officially denies any knowledge of or support for the coup, may have assisted the perpetrators (http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/iri-ven.htm). Also, a former US intelligence officer thinks the US navy (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0429-01.htm) helped out.

vox

[concerned]

Quote: from vox on 1:52 am on Aug. 7, 2002
ND,

Chavez was elected. He's not a dictator.

As for what happened, he was removed from office in a coup (which was cheered in the US media (http://www.fair.org/press-releases/venezuela-editorials.html), which seemed to momentarily forget that they were supposed to support democracy, not coups) and he was returned to office 48 hours later due to popular protest in the streets.

It also appears that the USA, which officially denies any knowledge of or support for the coup, may have assisted the perpetrators (http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/iri-ven.htm). Also, a former US intelligence officer thinks the US navy (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0429-01.htm) helped out.

vox

Yes, Chavez was elected, but since then has been continually loosing all his support, and he now behaves like a dictator, with media manipulation and everything included. The vast majority of Venezuelans don't support him anymore, and this is a fact.

And the coup wasn't only cheered in the USA, it was quite cheered in Colombia too (where he has done us a lot of harm by supporting the guerrillas), and in lots of other places including Venezuela. Most people I know who are Venezuelans were out in the street cheering.

And once again, he was not put back in power due to any popular protests. Actually the protests against Chavez have always been far more numerous than the protests pro-chavez. The protests pro-chavez consisting mainly of manipulated campesinos brought into the city in buses for this purpose.

Actually the protest on the streets against Chavez was what lead to the coup.

And get your shit straight vox, the US recognized they had knowledge of the coup taking place in Venezuela. And if they had anything to do with that directly, (which I quite frankly don't think so because if they had, it probably wouldn't have failed) God bless them for that!.


(Edited by concerned at 2:27 am on Aug. 7, 2002)

[vox]

Concerned,

Actually, the media has been almost universally against Chavez for quite a while. While anti-Chavez demonstrations got enormous coverage, pro-Chavez demonstrations were ignored. This all came out in background articles when the coup took place.

But don't take my word for it, read an eyewitness account (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0412-08.htm) of the events.

Chavez supporters, without any doubt, took to the streets to demand his return. Reuters, hardly a left-wing organization, said that the slums were seething (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0413-05.htm) after the coup.

When did the US acknowledge either knowledge of the coup or complicity in it? If you've an article, please link it. The last I heard, the US officially denies any beforehand knowledge of the coup.

Perhaps, Concerned, you should get your shit right rather than spew right-wing propaganda and expect it to be taken as the truth.

It's nice to see that you support democracy, too. Apparently, for the right-wingers, a military coup is better than an election.

vox

[concerned]

Well Vox, you are just hearing what you want to hear. Accepting pro-Chavez propaganda as legitimate and dismissing anything against it as propaganda. I guess there is nothing I can say here to change your point of view, you would have to go to Venezuela and see what is happening for yourself. You'd probably be in denial still anyhow.

Anyway, the US acknowledged knowledge of the coup, however they denied any complicity in it. I remember hearing Ari Fleischer talking about it. Since that was some time ago I would have to look for the source, so I'll get back to you on that one when I have it.

[concerned]

Vox, here are a couple of links I found in which the US officials recognize having knowledge of the coup, but deny any involvement in it:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...,232434,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,232434,00.html)

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/04/...8/venezuela.us/ (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/04/18/venezuela.us/)

So I think you Sir, are the one who needs to get your shit together before you write.


(Edited by concerned at 4:55 am on Aug. 7, 2002)

[vox]

Fair enough, Concerned.

The fact remains that I'm right about everything else, including the Venezuelan media bias against Chavez, and it is you who are engaging in right-wing propaganda.

vox

[concerned]

Vox,

Since you are not going to believe me that the vast majority of the protests and the people are actually against Chavez, just reason with this. What is more probable, that the part of the media that Chavez controls is being manipulated by him in all his power to show what he wants, or that the independent part of the media is unfairly and unethically being biased against Chavez risking their very existence?

Anti-Chavez demosntrations get the more coverage in the independent media because they are the ones that happen more often and with more mount of people. Unlike pro-Chavez demonstrations, anti-Chavez demonstrations have been for the most part peaceful. Except for the times when Chavez have sent the police to clash with the protestors in a violent way.

And by the way vox, off topic, do you think it is right that Chavez is supporting the Colombian guerrillas and sheltering them in their territory?

[vox]

"What is more probable, that the part of the media that Chavez controls is being manipulated by him in all his power to show what he wants, or that the independent part of the media is unfairly and unethically being biased against Chavez risking their very existence?"

Comrades,

Notice, please, what Concerned here attempts to do. Since the facts don't bear him out, he now wants to shift to argument to my personal opinion regarding a very stilted question he poses. In answering the question, one is forced by the limited choice to agree to the narrow terms of the proposition.

However, it's never good to give an opinion that isn't grounded in reality. To that end, I want to take a look at the question Concerned asks here, specifically his assumption that the private media in Venezuela is "independent."

Here are two paragraphs from an article in "The Nation" that investigates who owns the global media:

"Second-tier corporations are continually seeking to reach beyond national borders. Australian media moguls, following the path blazed by Murdoch, have the mantra 'Expand or die.' As one puts it, 'You really can't continue to grow as an Australian supplier in Australia.' Mediaset, the Berlusconi-owned Italian TV power, is angling to expand into the rest of Europe and Latin America. Perhaps the most striking example of second-tier globalization is Hicks, Muse, Tate and Furst, the US radio/publishing/TV/billboard/movie theater power that has been constructed almost overnight. In 1998 it spent well over $1 billion purchasing media assets in Mexico, Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela.

"Thus second-tier media firms are hardly 'oppositional' to the global system. This is true as well in developing countries. Mexico's Televisa, Brazil's Globo, Argentina's Clarin and Venezuela's Cisneros Group, for example, are among the world's sixty or seventy largest media corporations. These firms tend to dominate their own national and regional media markets, which have been experiencing rapid consolidation as well. They have extensive ties and joint ventures with the largest media TNCs, as well as with Wall Street investment banks. And like second-tier media firms elsewhere, they are also establishing global operations, especially in nations that speak the same language. As a result, they tend to have distinctly pro-business political agendas and to support expansion of the global media market, which puts them at odds with large segments of the population in their home countries." Source (http://past.thenation.com/issue/991129/1129mcchesney.shtml)

Here we see that there is no reason to believe at all that the private media in Venezuela are "independent" and have no agenda at all. Indeed, why should the privately owned media in Venezuela be different than the privately owned media anywhere else?

Of course, no one on the right seems to think it's odd that Venezuela has private media outlets, though they continue to claim that Chavez is a dictator, and dictators generally have not allowed private media, especially media that criticize them, have they?

The second paragraph is simply more of the propaganda on which Concerned based his initial argument.

As for the final question, I've seen unsubstantiated allegations that this is happening, but nothing credible. Perhaps Concerned could provide an article for me.

vox

[concerned]

B.S. Vox, I've given you the facts. You just don't want to believe them and so I tried to appeal to your sense of logic.

What good is it that I give you references? You are going to dismiss it as right-wing or anti-Chavez propaganda as you have done before.

Most of my sources are from the Colombian media. But I guess you would argue that the colombian media, as well as the american media have reasons to be anti-Chavez and therefore you find the perfect excuse to quickly dismiss them.

Yes vox, it is all just a big global plot to attack Chavez without justification. People in Venezuela love their president and the coup was performed by just a tiny minority. All the statistics about the Venezuelan economy doing terrible are probably fake. And all the polls in which the vast majority of the Venezuelans say to disagree with Chavez are probably made up too.
Only the information you find in communist sites and the liberal media is correct.

There is no point in continuing this discussion, I don't think you are open minded enough to give any sources or any of my arguments even the benefit of the doubt. It's a waste of time.



(Edited by concerned at 11:40 pm on Aug. 7, 2002)

[vox]

On May 3, Senator Christopher J. Dodd of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee requested an investigation from the US State Department, to find out what it did wrong in Venezuela. What he got was a complete whitewash -- which was turned over to the Senate last week.

The State's Department's supposedly independent Office of the Inspector General didn't even interview a single Venezuelan, but relied on US embassy officials and others who had a direct career interest in covering up what happened. This is comparable to investigating Enron by talking to Ken Lay and Andrew Fastow.

Significant parts of the report remain classified -- most tellingly, a section entitled "Miscellaneous Issues Raised by the News Media in Venezuela or the United States." Just what issues raised by the Venezuelan and U.S. news media are our State Department trying to keep away from the public discussion?

Bush Administration Tries to Hide Role in Venezuela Coup (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0807-05.htm)

[The Che]

Yes vox is right, Chavez is a great president. Go Chavez!

[The Che]

Chavez is the victim of a big international conspiracy. It's all the US fault, they just want to take over the world. they don't care for people in the slums. sucks.