Mother nature

[RedStarOverChina]

For the past 3 years my girlfriend and I have been arguing about boring stuff like marriage and having kids. She loves kids and dreams of having a bunch of kids later on in life. And I have exhausted all logical arguments against such a foolish desire.

Finally, she admits: it's a stupid idea to have kids, from an economic and practically every other kind of perspective there is.

But she still wants kids! It's "mother nature", she says.

I, however, argued that she thinks she wants kids because it's been indoctrinated to her that it's something that every woman does: Get married and have kids.

But then I recalled seeing her eyes sparkle every time she sees a cute baby. And I'm having doubts.

Maybe there is such a thing called mother nature and that many girls have it. Sometimes it's so strong that it overwhelms logic, so that even when she understands having kids is a tiring, bothersome, frustrating, tiring, economically draining, physically painful (especially for women) and tiring endeavor, she still wants kids.

That to me, appears to be very illogical. If we come to the conclusion that mother nature does exist and that many women have it, doesn't it automatically mean that, at least some women are by nature, less logical then men?

This obviously contradicts my long-held belief that logic is universal among all humans. So as you can see this is quite a theoretical dilemma I have.

Maybe I could use some "expert opinion" here.

[piet11111]

humans are just animals with the same sort of instincts (fear of the dark anyone ?)

usually humans can overcome instinct with willpower but especially the sex-drive is incredibly hard to suppress.
that she wants kids is not a lack of rationality but a lack of willpower (the amount of willpower depends on the person not gender)

you do not want kids and you really should tell her that its never going to happen.
if she leaves you over this its probably for the better as she can find someone else to have kids with and you can find someone that does not want kids instead of being stuck in a relationship where this will always be a problem.

[RedStarOverChina]

LOL it's not a relationship problem. But what you said about willpower does make sense.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Ask her exactly why she wants kids. Encourage her to cut it down to one single reason, perhaps three at most, but preferably just the one.

I can think of lots of reasons no to have kids. They're expensive, time-consuming (especially earlier on) and can be a source of bad emotions - does the idea of having screaming rows with a petulant teenager appeal to you? then have kids and I guarantee that's what you will get later on.

Does she like the smell of puke and baby poo? Does she like the idea of forcing something the size of a watermelon down her vagina? Does she like being woken up every night for a year by ear-piercing screams?

I am rather focusing on the negative aspects of raising a child, but goddamn it there are a lot of downsides. Also consider whether you and her are actually up to the task of raising a child. Can you afford it? Can you manage it, in other words, do either of you busy schedules?

Her "appeal to Nature" argument is based on pure sentiment and therefore completely and totally worthless, and you shouldn't be afraid to tell her that. There's a big difference between wanting a child and actually having one, and you shoukld strongly encourage her not to make a decision she could easily turn out to regret.

[Unicorn]

usually humans can overcome instinct with willpower but especially the sex-drive is incredibly hard to suppress.
that she wants kids is not a lack of rationality but a lack of willpower (the amount of willpower depends on the person not gender)
How is the wish to have kids related to sex drive?

[piet11111]

How is the wish to have kids related to sex drive?

i am not a biologist or a psychologist but i do vaguely remember that sex is supposed to get people pregnant ;)

[jake williams]

I really want to have kids. I love babies. And I completely recognize that the population drive is becoming very dangerous for the species. I'm a guy. It's a human thing, not a woman thing.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'd rather have a cat or dog than a baby. Cats don't scream for attention (unless they're Siamese, but Siamese cats suck anwyay) in the middle of the night, they sleep on your stomach (or on your face). Even a dog is less work than a child. And they wub you :tt1: just as much, if not more than a baby.

[piet11111]

I'd rather have a cat or dog than a baby. Cats don't scream for attention (unless they're Siamese, but Siamese cats suck anwyay) in the middle of the night, they sleep on your stomach (or on your face). Even a dog is less work than a child. And they wub you :tt1: just as much, if not more than a baby.

yeah also dogs are much easier to train (dont want to be offensive but damn me to hell if you disagree that you have to tell kids a bazillion times not to climb on everything and constantly live in fear those little idiots are going to hurt themselves again and again)

and dogs do not go through puberty or insult you if you do not give them some cola when they demand it.

[jake williams]

I'd rather have a cat or dog than a baby. Cats don't scream for attention (unless they're Siamese, but Siamese cats suck anwyay) in the middle of the night, they sleep on your stomach (or on your face). Even a dog is less work than a child. And they wub you :tt1: just as much, if not more than a baby.
I've never seen a stretch of sidewalk with 20 pounds of baby shit strewn across it.

Also, humans are just plan better than animals. And smarter. A lot smarter. And much more interesting.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've never seen a stretch of sidewalk with 20 pounds of baby shit strewn across it.

20 pounds? I don't think a dog can even hold that much. And in any case, that's exceptional circumstances. And I've seen plenty of nappies tossed where they shouldn't be, so it's not as if baby carers are completely innocent, whatever the faults of dog owners.


Also, humans are just plan better than animals. And smarter. A lot smarter. And much more interesting.

Not when they're loud, messy, smelly babies, which grow to be loud, snotty kids which grow up to be moody teenagers with a massive and mostly undeserved sense of entitlement.

[piet11111]

I've never seen a stretch of sidewalk with 20 pounds of baby shit strewn across it.

Also, humans are just plan better than animals. And smarter. A lot smarter. And much more interesting.

that shit is produced at home not on the street ;)

anyway most people bore me but i find it fascinating to see my sisters dog playing with a stick tossing it in the air and catching it before it falls to the ground.

[RedStarOverChina]

Ask her exactly why she wants kids. Encourage her to cut it down to one single reason, perhaps three at most, but preferably just the one.


See, none of her answers are logical. The ones she use the most are "everyone have kids when they are old enough" or "you'll want one too when you are 30".

And believe me I asked her everything you mentioned, I even told her that giving birth will leave her with a wide vagina and saggy breasts. And she goes, "I don't mind. Do you?"

Then of course I had to lie and say I didn't mind, not even a bit.


One thing that forced me to rethink this whole thing is that, she really likes kids! And she genuinely want some, knowing how difficult it is to actually raise one. That defies all logic for me.

[cappin]

Instincts can make us illogical, sure, but women having motherly instincts does not consequentially make men more logical, that's just illogical.

Take into consideration that men are instinctual creatures too, and that they come with an equal set of follies; tempers being one.

[cappin]

It's a human thing, not a woman thing.
Indeed.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"everyone have kids when they are old enough"That is simply not true. It perfectly possible to live a fulfilling life without raisng children. If anything, having a fulfilling life without children is easier because spending time and money raising them, feeding them and trying to get them into college.


"you'll want one too when you are 30"To which I would say "Then ask if I want kids when I'm 30". 30 is still young enough to have children.


And believe me I asked her everything you mentioned, I even told her that giving birth will leave her with a wide vagina and saggy breasts. And she goes, "I don't mind. Do you?"

Then of course I had to lie and say I didn't mind, not even a bit.She sounds obsessed with having children. Did you mention any of the other downsides I brought up? If she isn't swayed by them, then I think it's simply time for a firm hand; tell her you don't want kids. If she tries emotional blackmail to try and bring you round to the idea of having children ("If you truly loved me you would give me kids" or some crap like that), then I strongly suggest you leave her, since she would then be being selfish, thinking of only her own emotional gratification. You can have kids anytime between now and the menopause, but once you're saddled with kids there is no way of getting rid of them that isn't morally objectionable.

Has she ever actually had any personal experience in dealing with children? If not, perhaps you can convince her to babysit for someone to "get a feel" for what it's like. Make sure she tries it more than once, and for children of a wide variety of ages. That might convince her that having a child is not the way to go forward at this time. On the other hand, it could make her dead set on having a child, but I leave that up to you to consider whether that is a risk worth taking.

[jake williams]

One thing I will say though certainly: Do not have kids if you do not want them.

[Awful Reality]

What's with all the bolding? Are you an LSD sock puppet or something?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What's with all the bolding? Are you an LSD sock puppet or something?

I wasn't aware that LSD had a copyright on bolded text. I guess I should tell Redstar2000. :rolleyes:

[Dean]

For the past 3 years my girlfriend and I have been arguing about boring stuff like marriage and having kids. She loves kids and dreams of having a bunch of kids later on in life. And I have exhausted all logical arguments against such a foolish desire.

Finally, she admits: it's a stupid idea to have kids, from an economic and practically every other kind of perspective there is.

But she still wants kids! It's "mother nature", she says.

I, however, argued that she thinks she wants kids because it's been indoctrinated to her that it's something that every woman does: Get married and have kids.

But then I recalled seeing her eyes sparkle every time she sees a cute baby. And I'm having doubts.

Maybe there is such a thing called mother nature and that many girls have it. Sometimes it's so strong that it overwhelms logic, so that even when she understands having kids is a tiring, bothersome, frustrating, tiring, economically draining, physically painful (especially for women) and tiring endeavor, she still wants kids.

That to me, appears to be very illogical. If we come to the conclusion that mother nature does exist and that many women have it, doesn't it automatically mean that, at least some women are by nature, less logical then men?

This obviously contradicts my long-held belief that logic is universal among all humans. So as you can see this is quite a theoretical dilemma I have.

Maybe I could use some "expert opinion" here.

I'm not an expert, but in all walks of life I have found women to be more nurturing than men. I don't mean nurturing as in "aw a baby!" or "I will protect my children" but in the desire to allow, and ultimately to help promote, that others can reach their potential; that they can become what they potentially are. This is a trait I think is critical for all humans, and indeed a cornerstone to a communist revolution.

Since women have the biological faculties (and according to people like Dawkins the fundamental psychological inclination) to have children, I could see that being an aspect of female psychology. But it is also a social stereotype - that men are heartless bastards, and all women want to have a full litter. I don't think that stereotype is true, and I'm sure it colors our perspective, so this is a difficult issue to tackle.

As for "mother nature," I've never heard the term used to refer to a natural motherliness in women (as you seem to be saying) but rather to mean the natural world. I think parental traits are inherent to men and women; maybe having the faculties to incubate and a social atmosphere promoting it compels women to desire babies more.

Last night I had a breakdown in regards to having lost all the motherly figures in my life (male and female), and fearing of losing another. It was probably the worst I had had in a decade, so I am really thinking about this issue a lot recently. I don't think its bad to have children. I think it probably does wonders to make the parents more humanistic (assuming they have an egalitarian view of humanity). I guess you should just decide for yourself what is appropriate.

[Dean]

Instincts can make us illogical, sure, but women having motherly instincts does not consequentially make men more logical, that's just illogical.

Take into consideration that men are instinctual creatures too, and that they come with an equal set of follies; tempers being one.

I meant to address this in my post, too. It is absurd to think that women wanting kids implies an illogical attitude. Child-rearing is a very positive, life affirming activity when done in a humanist fashion, and I don't think an intense desire for it is irrational. For Vaginal_Residue's lover, maybe it is based in internalized drives rather than a coherent, conscious idea - but who is to say that such drives are irrational in the first place?

[jake williams]

What's with all the bolding? Are you an LSD sock puppet or something?
I'm just really desperate for attention.

[Bluetongue]

Ask her is she would consider adoption - her answer will provide you with insight into her deep motivations.

As a biologist, I can't fault someone for wanting to pass on their DNA. I come from a LONG line of beings that made the same decision. However, all things considered, adoption is better for the planet, humanity and especially the baby you adopt.

Then again, there are many hindrances to adoption that don't exist for birthing - bizarre and unrational, but true. It may not be a choice. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[quevivafidel]

Well, not all women are like your girlfriend. I know a lot of women who are too selfish to have kids or just flat-out dislike children. (Which is incomprehensible to me!) Personally, I love kids; I tutor them after school and gladly volunteer in anything where I can interact with children. I love kids because I love people and kids are humorous, philosophical, innocent people who are interested and curious in the life around them which makes them all the more wonderful. Of course, you have to discipline them and it's time-consuming, but the rewards you get from spending time with kids far outweigh the work involved. I guess I could live my life without being a mother as long as I were able to help kids in some way and babysit other people's children, mentor teenagers; things like that, but I would also love to have kids of my own.

Maybe women like your girlfriend are just big softies; I don't know, but the women I have met who don't want kids were a little high-maintenance and self-absorbed. (Not to say that all women who like kids are nurturing and all who don't are like the women I have mentioned.) I don't think it's necessarily "Mother nature" it's just more of a love of humanity and a desire to see a mind cultivate and grow throughout the years...and there can be some selfishness in it, too, a want to be "needed" or to have a child grow up with the same ideologies & ideas as you, etc. (I'm somewhat guilty of the latter--if I have a kid, I'm probably going to read him or her socialist works, haha.)

Yeah, if you thought your girlfriend was illogical, I probably seem nuts... But like I said, if you'd rather not have kids, there is an increasing number of young career women who don't like kids, don't want kids and even think they are "creepy."

[piet11111]

well kids are going to require so much time and attention so know what you are getting into.

me i cant even find the time to grow a plant.

[Dystisis]

There is probably something "deep" within the human mind about passing on the DNA, as has been mentioned, and bringing about the new generation.

Whether this (I think it is subconscious) intention is stronger with women, I don't know. Could be more heavily connected because it is they who actually give birth.

As for the record, I don't see anything illogical about having babies. If anyone could update me on why this is supposedly so gruesome this day and age, please do... All this about babies being "icky" and what not frankly reminds me of a 'Sex and the city" level of philosophy that I just find idiotic.