Why??? [Archive]

Dust Bunnies

20th April 2008, 23:47

Alright I'm Catholic, the biggest and oldest group of Christians.

I'll start off with I believe because I don't see how a huge universe with advance physics can form in billions of years, it'd take a few quadrillion years. But I do see the possibility that one being of advancedness (making up words for the win!) being around and speeding up the process. How? I don't know but that brings me into the next part of what I love about Catholicism.

Mystery. If God (or gods) is so complex then how come some religions (or even Christian groups) don't think there is some mysteries we can't understand. God is suppose to be an all-powerful all-seeing all-knowing Being. I don't think a mortal could have the same comprehension as God.

So that covers part of my faith, the rest is just based off of feeling and experiences. I'll list all of them

twice has it drizzled and when I asked for it not to rain the Sun came out and became a very nice day (very debatable though)

Many times have I asked for something that was against the odds and has happened (again very debatable I will admit)

Now here is for the Miracle part: It was a hot day and I had a heavy jacket on for some reason (I was in the Second Grade at the time, the grade where you receive two very important rites (Sacraments) I already got 1 of 2). I began feeling faint so I held onto a pole. I felt as if my Soul was lifted from my body and I soon looked around and saw two angels helping me, floating me up. I felt the warmth of a love that was so great. But as recess ended it felt as if my soul snapped back into my body and I went on my way. (this is one of my top examples)

I once saw a figure of light (this is one of my lesser examples)

Finally the one that will top it off. It was Holy Week (Palm Sunday until Easter (7 days)).

On Saturday I went to Church (I forgot why) and on Sunday I had to sing at Church. On Monday-Wed I went to a Mass. Thursday and Friday I went to the services (and Mass in Thursday's case) then finally I went to Church on Saturday before Easter (Easter Vigil). The entire story of this is on Thursday I was praying in quiet (since Jesus said in the Gospels "Could you spend just an hour with me?" On the day the Thursday was suppose to simulate (Holy Thursday)) and I asked for Jesus to fill me with the Holy Spirit and to let me feel his love as he did the time I almost died. I felt a love in my heart like none other, and when I lost focus it went away.

Please don't let the guy you asked be a general representative of Christianity or even Religion. That guy is probably a member of The Born Again Church #3253.

If you got any questions pm me.

eyedrop

21st April 2008, 01:24

Alright I'm Catholic, the biggest and oldest group of Christians.

I'll start off with I believe because I don't see how a huge universe with advance physics can form in billions of years, it'd take a few quadrillion years. But I do see the possibility that one being of advancedness (making up words for the win!) being around and speeding up the process. How? I don't know but that brings me into the next part of what I love about Catholicism.

I don't see how an all powerful God can suddenly appear. You are also unqualified to know how long a universe will take to form.

Mystery. If God (or gods) is so complex then how come some religions (or even Christian groups) don't think there is some mysteries we can't understand. God is suppose to be an all-powerful all-seeing all-knowing Being. I don't think a mortal could have the same comprehension as God.

Didn't quite understand what you meant. Could you elaborate?

So that covers part of my faith, the rest is just based off of feeling and experiences. I'll list all of them

twice has it drizzled and when I asked for it not to rain the Sun came out and became a very nice day (very debatable though)
Ask for it a couple of times and it's bound to happen.

Many times have I asked for something that was against the odds and has happened (again very debatable I will admit)
Things that are unlikely also has to happen from time to time.

Now here is for the Miracle part: It was a hot day and I had a heavy jacket on for some reason (I was in the Second Grade at the time, the grade where you receive two very important rites (Sacraments) I already got 1 of 2). I began feeling faint so I held onto a pole. I felt as if my Soul was lifted from my body and I soon looked around and saw two angels helping me, floating me up. I felt the warmth of a love that was so great. But as recess ended it felt as if my soul snapped back into my body and I went on my way. (this is one of my top examples)

I can feel stuff like that if I take acid or dream, although my experiences don't contain boring creatures such as angels. The mind is quite gullible.

I once saw a figure of light (this is one of my lesser examples)
Your mind like playing tricks on you. Do you take everything your mind makes up for you for truth or just the things that fits with your religion.

Finally the one that will top it off. It was Holy Week (Palm Sunday until Easter (7 days)).

On Saturday I went to Church (I forgot why) and on Sunday I had to sing at Church. On Monday-Wed I went to a Mass. Thursday and Friday I went to the services (and Mass in Thursday's case) then finally I went to Church on Saturday before Easter (Easter Vigil). The entire story of this is on Thursday I was praying in quiet (since Jesus said in the Gospels "Could you spend just an hour with me?" On the day the Thursday was suppose to simulate (Holy Thursday)) and I asked for Jesus to fill me with the Holy Spirit and to let me feel his love as he did the time I almost died. I felt a love in my heart like none other, and when I lost focus it went away. Stop believing all the illusions your brain makes up for you. They are influenced by all the input you got from all the religious propaganda you heard.

I would need vastly more to get me too believe something. Science has repatable experiments and evidence that can be tested all the time. I don't really see why someone should base their entire view of the world on some hallucinations they have had. If you would get an illusion of water in the desert would that mean that there where water there or just that your mind were playing tricks on you.

Module

21st April 2008, 03:02

I'll start off with I believe because I don't see how a huge universe with advance physics can form in billions of years, it'd take a few quadrillion years. But I do see the possibility that one being of advancedness (making up words for the win!) being around and speeding up the process. How? I don't know but that brings me into the next part of what I love about Catholicism.
So because you cannot understand evolution, or rational explanation (and rational it is.) you choose to replace it with an irrational one?

Scientists have discovered how long it must've taken for the world to form through science, rationality, because they were unsatisfied with the Christian notion of the world having existed for only a few thousand years.
If you don't see how a huge universe could have formed in billions of years that's because you don't understand science.
Scientists didn't just make up a number off the top of their heads of how long it took for the universe to form, they figured it out.

Mystery. If God (or gods) is so complex then how come some religions (or even Christian groups) don't think there is some mysteries we can't understand. God is suppose to be an all-powerful all-seeing all-knowing Being. I don't think a mortal could have the same comprehension as God.Christian groups don't believe there are no mysteries we can't understand. They don't seek to understand them - they explain it with God. No Christian I have ever met has claimed they could have the same understanding as God. That is blasphemous, and fundamentally against Christianity.

What's more ... why is this a reason for believing in God, at all?
And if you accept the mystery of God, why do you use the idea of God as an explanation over science?

twice has it drizzled and when I asked for it not to rain the Sun came out and became a very nice day (very debatable though)Many times it has drizzled and then later became a very nice day.
Good ol' science, I didn't even have to ask.
That's love, right there. ;)

Many times have I asked for something that was against the odds and has happened (again very debatable I will admit)And I'm sure many more times something that wasn't against the odds has happened. If there is a chance something will happen, then there is always a God-free reason why it does.

Now here is for the Miracle part: It was a hot day and I had a heavy jacket on for some reason (I was in the Second Grade at the time, the grade where you receive two very important rites (Sacraments) I already got 1 of 2). I began feeling faint so I held onto a pole. I felt as if my Soul was lifted from my body and I soon looked around and saw two angels helping me, floating me up. I felt the warmth of a love that was so great. But as recess ended it felt as if my soul snapped back into my body and I went on my way. (this is one of my top examples)That's not a miracle, that's you "feeling faint" and then having a hallucination.
The mind is a powerful thing and can make you think you've seen something amazing, when it was probably a message carried in your brain that had lost it's way.

I once saw a figure of light (this is one of my lesser examples)What, an anorexic girl? lolz

Finally the one that will top it off. It was Holy Week (Palm Sunday until Easter (7 days)).

On Saturday I went to Church (I forgot why) and on Sunday I had to sing at Church. On Monday-Wed I went to a Mass. Thursday and Friday I went to the services (and Mass in Thursday's case) then finally I went to Church on Saturday before Easter (Easter Vigil). The entire story of this is on Thursday I was praying in quiet (since Jesus said in the Gospels "Could you spend just an hour with me?" On the day the Thursday was suppose to simulate (Holy Thursday)) and I asked for Jesus to fill me with the Holy Spirit and to let me feel his love as he did the time I almost died. I felt a love in my heart like none other, and when I lost focus it went away. I'll repeat, the imagination is a powerful thing. When you go home on a rainy day, and you're feeling lonely, you imagine a time with your friends and you get a feeling a love. It's like that, but presumably to a larger extent, because you're imagining God.
God obviously represents something important in your life.
But I genuinely hope, for your sake, that you find something or somebody to replace it with.
Friends, family, nature or even science.

hekmatista

21st April 2008, 04:01

Or is it just that it takes a former Catholic to recognize when he's being put on?:confused:

Red_or_Dead

21st April 2008, 21:28

I'll start off with I believe because I don't see how a huge universe with advance physics can form in billions of years, it'd take a few quadrillion years. But I do see the possibility that one being of advancedness (making up words for the win!) being around and speeding up the process. How? I don't know but that brings me into the next part of what I love about Catholicism.

Well, asuming that you are not a scientist, I second comrade eyedrop. You or I are not qualified to make claims as to how long it has taken, and if there was a god(s) involved.

Also, if Im not much mistaken, Christianity does not argue that God "sped up the process", but that he created everything on his own.

twice has it drizzled and when I asked for it not to rain the Sun came out and became a very nice day (very debatable though)

Many times have I asked for something that was against the odds and has happened (again very debatable I will admit)

Both are very debatable indeed. It could be, no scrap that, it was a coincidence. Just ask yourself: how many times do you want something that is against odds to happen, but it doesnt? Just like the horoscope; mostly people only remember those predictions that came true, and forget about those that didnt.

Now here is for the Miracle part: It was a hot day and I had a heavy jacket on for some reason (I was in the Second Grade at the time, the grade where you receive two very important rites (Sacraments) I already got 1 of 2). I began feeling faint so I held onto a pole. I felt as if my Soul was lifted from my body and I soon looked around and saw two angels helping me, floating me up. I felt the warmth of a love that was so great. But as recess ended it felt as if my soul snapped back into my body and I went on my way. (this is one of my top examples)

Could it be just idk., fatique, illness, or feeling unwell? I am no expert, but I would sooner put an experience like that into the "halucination" department, than actualy taking them as a proof of a god(s).

On Saturday I went to Church (I forgot why) and on Sunday I had to sing at Church. On Monday-Wed I went to a Mass. Thursday and Friday I went to the services (and Mass in Thursday's case) then finally I went to Church on Saturday before Easter (Easter Vigil). The entire story of this is on Thursday I was praying in quiet (since Jesus said in the Gospels "Could you spend just an hour with me?" On the day the Thursday was suppose to simulate (Holy Thursday)) and I asked for Jesus to fill me with the Holy Spirit and to let me feel his love as he did the time I almost died. I felt a love in my heart like none other, and when I lost focus it went away.

See above.

Another thing is that even if we say that what you describe is evidence enough to conclude that there is a god(s), there is still the matter of determining which god(s). For all I know it could be the Christian god, it could be the Jewish god, it could be Allah... Even ancient Greek gods. Or it could be an entity that isnt worshiped anywhere in the world, something that no person ever thought might exist.

Please don't let the guy you asked be a general representative of Christianity or even Religion. That guy is probably a member of The Born Again Church #3253.

Whatever he is. There are more Christian churches and sects than I could count if I had the rest of my life off, and they all seem very similar to me.

If you got any questions pm me.

Well, I created this thread so that we can talk about it here.

Bud Struggle

21st April 2008, 23:15

This one is for all religious OIers... And religious members in general.

Why believe in god(s)? What reason do you have for it?

This question has been really bugging me for some time now. What makes a person believe in a higher power of any sort?

So, can any of you come up with a better explanation as to why believe in god(s)?

Here's one answer: I've been very successful in a lot of things. And I have been successful through God's help. I started with nothing and built up a really good group of businesses, have lots of cool, interesting and famous friends and have beautuful and successful wife and kids.

If there was no God--them I AM really pretty fucking wonderful to do what I have done and have all I have. Everything I do turns to gold because I AM WONDERFUL. Well, as Polonius said to Laertes: "to thine own self be true." I'm not that wonderful--what I have is a gift from God, and I'm thankful. God has been good and I have tried as best I can to be faithful servant to him.

When you have lived "out there" in the real world as long as I have, you know when you do something, you know when you have been lucky and you know when you have been given a "gift."

I've been given many gifts.

Dust Bunnies

22nd April 2008, 00:15

*hugs TomK* someone who could possibly agree with me on something!

I agree, somethings are so hard to happen in life it makes you think. I was born Janurary 6th, I think I was 4 or 6 weeks early but I came out just fine. I shortly later turned orange and as the nurse was taking off these goggles my parents were there luckily and stopped her, if she didn't I would of became blind. Somethings make you either choose between, there is a god or the alternative, I'm just amazing/lucky. I go with the first.

Red_or_Dead

22nd April 2008, 10:24

Here's one answer: I've been very successful in a lot of things. And I have been successful through God's help. I started with nothing and built up a really good group of businesses, have lots of cool, interesting and famous friends and have beautuful and successful wife and kids.

If there was no God--them I AM really pretty fucking wonderful to do what I have done and have all I have. Everything I do turns to gold because I AM WONDERFUL. Well, as Polonius said to Laertes: "to thine own self be true." I'm not that wonderful--what I have is a gift from God, and I'm thankful. God has been good and I have tried as best I can to be faithful servant to him.

When you have lived "out there" in the real world as long as I have, you know when you do something, you know when you have been lucky and you know when you have been given a "gift."

I've been given many gifts.

Well, you are succesfull, but how many others arent? Does that mean that god is just... well, "mean" to them, or are they down or their luck? Or is it the capitalistic system that allows some people to achieve what you did, while others can just watch and dream, thereby it is the capitalistic system that allows you to do that, not a divinity?

The point: capitalism is no evidence of god(s).

:lol:I may have spend less time in the real world than you, but at least I dont believe in fairy tales!

Kami

22nd April 2008, 11:05

Ever told a lie about something, then retold it so many times you end up believing it's true?
A year and a half ago, I identified as a born-again Christian, non-demoninational though brought up in the anglican and attended both it and the local baptist, as well as non-denominational events. I know that I honestly believed (though I at the time would have said knew) that there was a god; that he was watching over me, and that he communed with me. Brought to mind are some moments I still find moving; a time on a yacht on the broads with a group of other christians is the most extreme example I can recall (Pathfinders on Water). Every night 30+ of us gathered on one 6-man yacht (we called it squash) and sung, prayed, and were encouraged to use the holy spirit's gifts, such as speaking in tongues (a gift I supposedly had, according to the leaders) and prophesying. At those times, there was such a feeling of belonging, a feeling of rightness. My yacht's skipper, No. 1 he was called, was a supposed prophet, and each morning he would study the bible with us, and prophesy about us. (His prediction was I would become an anglican vicar. Needless to say, he was slightly off :P). Again, there was an absolute certainty about all of this; these things were happening to us, so we knew that it was true, that it was real.

I look back from where I am now. I will not lie and say all the memories and experiences I do not miss; that sense of belonging I have not found again. But from my vantage point I can see how mistaken I was; the prophesying? we were in very close quarters with each other for a week, with no outside conatact. We all worked things out without supernatural aid. The tongues? Delusion. I say that with certainty; the leaders tell you to say whatever syllables come into your head, then when you start speaking gibberish, they tell you you're doing it, and isn't the miricle wonderful! The certainty about God was partly a sort of mob conciousness; we all leant on each other for support, and told each other that the support was coming from God. The "Hell" aspect of course came in as well, but I'd really rather not go into that right now.

I hope I have provided some insight into Christian life, and why a theist believes. I'm going to go let my brain cool down now.

eyedrop

22nd April 2008, 20:05

Red_or_Dead

Well, asuming that you are not a scientist, I second comrade eyedrop. You or I are not qualified to make claims as to how long it has taken, and if there was a god(s) involved.

Also, if Im not much mistaken, Christianity does not argue that God "sped up the process", but that he created everything on his own.

And even if he had been a part of a team of scientists that proved that the universe couldn't have developed in billion of years then we would be left with a universe that used quadruplions of years to develop, not The Flying Spaggeti Monster.

Here's one answer: I've been very successful in a lot of things. And I have been successful through God's help. I started with nothing and built up a really good group of businesses, have lots of cool, interesting and famous friends and have beautuful and successful wife and kids.

If there was no God--them I AM really pretty fucking wonderful to do what I have done and have all I have. Everything I do turns to gold because I AM WONDERFUL. Well, as Polonius said to Laertes: "to thine own self be true." I'm not that wonderful--what I have is a gift from God, and I'm thankful. God has been good and I have tried as best I can to be faithful servant to him.

When you have lived "out there" in the real world as long as I have, you know when you do something, you know when you have been lucky and you know when you have been given a "gift."

I've been given many gifts.

What makes you believe that it's through Gods help? And if this would have been true it would imply that more financially successful persons would be more religious and opposite while in the real world statisticly poor people are more likely to cling to God.

I don't really see why you would choose to belittle your achievements and claim that they are not yours at all but Gods? Be proud of yourself instead of setting yourself to a secondary role in your life.

Arkattson

*hugs TomK* someone who could possibly agree with me on something!

I agree, somethings are so hard to happen in life it makes you think. I was born Janurary 6th, I think I was 4 or 6 weeks early but I came out just fine. I shortly later turned orange and as the nurse was taking off these goggles my parents were there luckily and stopped her, if she didn't I would of became blind. Somethings make you either choose between, there is a god or the alternative, I'm just amazing/lucky. I go with the first.Things that are hard to happens has to happen at times, besides by being born you have already had luck that dwarfs the luck needed for the goggles incident. Everyone that lives are lucky just by being the sperms that got to the goal, but if we wouldn't have been the lucky ones someone else would.

I'm lucky
????????
God must exist

Fill out the questionmarks.

What we percieve as luck is a statistical inevietably.

Bud Struggle

22nd April 2008, 21:52

Well, you are succesfull, but how many others arent? Does that mean that god is just... well, "mean" to them, or are they down or their luck? Or is it the capitalistic system that allows some people to achieve what you did, while others can just watch and dream, thereby it is the capitalistic system that allows you to do that, not a divinity?

The point: capitalism is no evidence of god(s).

:lol:I may have spend less time in the real world than you, but at least I dont believe in fairy tales!

Either there is a God OR I am just better than almost everyone else in the world. :D

While I'd like to believe the latter--I'm afraid that the former is the case.

And Capitalism is no evidence of God the same way that science is no evidence of Communism.

Kami

22nd April 2008, 22:12

Either there is a God OR I am just better than almost everyone else in the world. :D

That's quite a false dichotomy you have there, it looks rather painful.

While I'd like to believe the latter--I'm afraid that the former is the case.I posit you are both lucky and deluded. I also ask you to explain successful/lucky atheists?

Bud Struggle

22nd April 2008, 22:37

That's quite a false dichotomy you have there, it looks rather painful.

I rather enjoy being me.

I posit you are both lucky and deluded. I also ask you to explain successful/lucky atheists?

I have no idea about how God works in this world with other people. All I can state is how God works in ME. And I can tell you what God has done for me.

How can you explain that people with their obvious (to you) delusion about God could function so successfull in this world?

Also being successful is a LOT more than being lucky. Luck is good every now and then, but it can't be trusted--I KNOW how to be successful. You can drop me down penniless in a country where I can't speak the language and in a year--I'll be successful. That's not luck.

Kami

22nd April 2008, 22:56

I have no idea about how God works in this world with other people. All I can state is how God works in ME. And I can tell you what God has done for me.
Nothing. You can tell me what you believe the sky fairy has done for you, but until you have established his existance, it's all rather meaningless.

How can you explain that people with their obvious (to you) delusion about God could function so successfull in this world?
Why wouldn't they? People believe all sorts of things that in many ways have no bearing on how they function in society.

Also being successful is a LOT more than being lucky. Luck is good every now and then, but it can't be trusted--I KNOW how to be successful. You can drop me down penniless in a country where I can't speak the language and in a year--I'll be successful. That's not luck.

In that case, you're skilled. Still no God there, I'm afraid.

Dhul Fiqar

22nd April 2008, 23:06

Opium is a powerful drug.

Bud Struggle

22nd April 2008, 23:18

Nothing. You can tell me what you believe the sky fairy has done for you, but until you have established his existance, it's all rather meaningless.

Why wouldn't they? People believe all sorts of things that in many ways have no bearing on how they function in society.

In that case, you're skilled. Still no God there, I'm afraid.

The point I'm making is that it's all subjective. And I admit as much, so my delusion is tempered with a good dose of objectivity. What I find to be problematic is Communists who BELIEVE that Marxism is some sort of real "science." Even after all of the times it's been proven wrong still won't conceide that it is a totally subjective belief.

Now THAT'S scary, don't you think?

Kami

22nd April 2008, 23:26

Bud Struggle

22nd April 2008, 23:33

Subjectivism doesn't come into it here (well, at least beyond science in general), since by positing a God, you are making a statement about the physical universe. This makes God's existance a Scientific question, and as an entirely unsupported claim, we can only assume it false. Or are you positing a God who exists only for you, and only has power over you, and could vanish any moment you stopped believing? Some God that would be.

I think what you're referring to in the seconf hald is Logic, not Science (Scientifically questioning Communism is just... odd. What are you questioning?).
And that being the case, no, it's not scary. What's scarier is people believing things they think illogical :P

I make no claims for Communism being logical or scientific. I take the word "science" from numerous post and articles about Communism. So you admit: there is no science to Communism?

All I can suspect about God is that there is no emperical evidence for or against him. Just because the slight faculties of the human senses can't easily detect him doesn't actually say a thing about his existance.

As far as I can see, God can't be empirically proven or disproven. Same could be said about Communism. Both are beliefs, both can be considered illogical.

Kami

22nd April 2008, 23:41

I make no claims for Communism being logical or scientific. I take the word "science" from numerous post and articles about Communism. So you admit: there is no science to Communism?
Communism is politics. Science makes a claim about how the universe is, Communism makes a claim about how the world ought to be. You may well have heard of something called the is/ought gap

All I can suspect about God is that there is no emperical evidence for or against him. Just because the slight faculties of the human senses can't easily detect him doesn't actually say a thing about his existance.
Yes it does, it says that he is undetectable by human senses. That's quite a big black mark in any argument for his existance.

As far as I can see, God can't be empirically proven or disproven. Same could be said about Communism. Both are beliefs, both can be considered illogical.
Firstly, you don't need to disprove God, that's the default assumption in any scientific claim.
Secondly, what about Communism? Communism isn't making a scientific claim, theism is. There's no parallel.

Red_or_Dead

23rd April 2008, 00:12

Either there is a God OR I am just better than almost everyone else in the world. :D

Define better. AND my argument still stands. What is it so special about you that god chose you and a relatively small number of people to be "better" (as you would define "better")?

Also being successful is a LOT more than being lucky. Luck is good every now and then, but it can't be trusted--I KNOW how to be successful. You can drop me down penniless in a country where I can't speak the language and in a year--I'll be successful. That's not luck.

As has been said, that is a skill. We all have them. Yours happens to be that you are good at making money. Your argument still doesnt in any way explain what god has to do with your and everybody elses skills.

As far as I can see, God can't be empirically proven or disproven. Same could be said about Communism. Both are beliefs, both can be considered illogical.

Until his existance is empiricaly proven, we take the position that he does not exist.

And, if I may ask, what reigion do you subscribe to? As in Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox,... etc.

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 00:21

Communism is politics. Science makes a claim about how the universe is, Communism makes a claim about how the world ought to be. You may well have heard of something called the is/ought gap

I'll let you go on this one. You haven't been around here long enough to see what Communist RevLefters think on the subject.

Yes it does, it says that he is undetectable by human senses. That's quite a big black mark in any argument for his existance.

Well, black holes were undetectable by human senses 100 years ago--it don't mean they don't exist. But no matter, I'm not pushing for an "scientific" God of the five senses. I never made that case, as I said God can be known subjectivly through our insight, not our sight.

Firstly, you don't need to disprove God, that's the default assumption in any scientific claim.

Again, I never mentioned God interms of science. As far as the bebinning of the universe--of that I know nothing as I wasn't there so I can make no claims. All I know is that the universe was either created or wasn't created--and both views are pretty absurd.

Secondly, what about Communism? Communism isn't making a scientific claim, theism is. There's no parallel.

Just the opposite. Read some posts by Communist around here--Marxism is quite a test tube baby.

Kami

23rd April 2008, 00:28

I'll let you go on this one. You haven't been around here long enough to see what Communist RevLefters think on the subject.
I'll assume you failed to look at my join date? I've been lurking far longer than you've been here.

Well, black holes were undetectable by human senses 100 years ago--it don't mean they don't exist. But no matter, I'm not pushing for an "scientific" God of the five senses. I never made that case, as I said God can be known subjectivly through our insight, not our sight.
You state God exists, correct? This is a claim about how the Universe is. We call these Scientific Claims. Subjective evidence just doesn't cut it here.

Again, I never mentioned God interms of science. As far as the bebinning of the universe--of that I know nothing as I wasn't there so I can make no claims. All I know is that the universe was either created or wasn't created--and both views are pretty absurd.
you can not mention God in terms of Science all you want, positing his existance is still a scientific claim. And when did the beginning of the universe come into this? We're discussing God's existance, not the Universe's Origin

Dean

23rd April 2008, 00:34

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 00:41

I'll assume you failed to look at my join date? I've been lurking far longer than you've been here.

Fair enough. But Marxism is held as a science here.

You state God exists, correct? This is a claim about how the Universe is. We call these Scientific Claims. Subjective evidence just doesn't cut it here.

Who says? You are posting rules that I have never agreed to. You may think the world is unidimensional scientific--I do not. I have NO objection to science. It's just not all there is.

you can not mention God in terms of Science all you want, positing his existance is still a scientific claim. And when did the beginning of the universe come into this? We're discussing God's existance, not the Universe's Origin

The universe's origin is as close as I come to having any scientific claims God. (And there it's 50/50.) You seem to hold that inductive empericism is the only logical way to look at the universe. It does work well for test tubes and metallurgy and such, but it misses the mark for so much else.

Kami

23rd April 2008, 00:56

Who says? You are posting rules that I have never agreed to. You may think the world is unidimensional scientific--I do not. I have NO objection to science. It's just not all there is.

Logic says. Let me put this in the form of a Syllogism;
P1. Science is the method by which we come to know what is in the universe.
P2. To posit God is to posit the that God is in the universe.
C1. To posit God is to make a Scientific claim.

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 01:25

Logic says. Let me put this in the form of a Syllogism;
P1. Science is the method by which we come to know what is in the universe.
P2. To posit God is to posit the that God is in the universe.
C1. To posit God is to make a Scientific claim.

P1. is a bit of an issue. I think science is one of the methods by which we know what is in the universe, but not the only method. Why ever would you think science is the only method?

P2. is an issue, too. I personally don't believe God is in the universe. To think that a creator would be part of his creation might be a bit jejune.

So P3. doesn't quite follow from any of that.

Awful Reality

23rd April 2008, 01:33

Here's one answer: I've been very successful in a lot of things. And I have been successful through God's help. I started with nothing and built up a really good group of businesses, have lots of cool, interesting and famous friends and have beautuful and successful wife and kids.

Any good reason to attribute that to god and not just luck and/or other factors? Is this "Business success through God's help" thing a justification for exploitation?

"Child Labor? Hell no, I made millions off of The Almighty Bearer of All that is Truthful and Holy!"

If there was no God--them I AM really pretty fucking wonderful to do what I have done and have all I have. Everything I do turns to gold because I AM WONDERFUL. Well, as Polonius said to Laertes: "to thine own self be true." I'm not that wonderful--what I have is a gift from God, and I'm thankful. God has been good and I have tried as best I can to be faithful servant to him.

So either God chose you to be great, or you're WONDERFULLY superior. What self righteousness!

When you have lived "out there" in the real world as long as I have, you know when you do something, you know when you have been lucky and you know when you have been given a "gift." Condescension≠Justification for god. But I might as well trust your opinion, you've been "out there."

I've been given many gifts.

Hopefully one of them is a straightjacket.

Awful Reality

23rd April 2008, 01:38

Fair enough. But Marxism is held as a science here.

Hegelianism is a far better explanation of how the world works than religion.

Who says? You are posting rules that I have never agreed to. You may think the world is unidimensional scientific--I do not. I have NO objection to science. It's just not all there is.

I suggest you research the meaning of the term "Science."

The universe's origin is as close as I come to having any scientific claims God. (And there it's 50/50.) You seem to hold that inductive empericism is the only logical way to look at the universe. It does work well for test tubes and metallurgy and such, but it misses the mark for so much else.

Like why that dipshit Pre-Teen who believes Canada is socialist was dehydrated on his playground and started hallucinating? Oh wait, yes, there is an explanation for that- and it's scientific.

Kami

23rd April 2008, 01:43

P1. is a bit of an issue. I think science is one of the methods by which we know what is in the universe, but not the only method. Why ever would you think science is the only method?
The key word here is "is", ("is" is!). Can you name me another tried and true meathod of knowing what is in the universe? If not, we have to work with what we have.

P2. is an issue, too. I personally don't believe God is in the universe. To think that a creator would be part of his creation might be a bit jejune.
In that case, we have a much greater problem. Where is this God, if not everywhere? (and is omnipresence no longer in the normal doctrine?)

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 01:43

Any good reason to attribute that to god and not just luck and/or other factors? Is this "Business success through God's help" thing a justification for exploitation?

"Child Labor? Hell no, I made millions off of The Almighty Bearer of All that is Truthful and Holy!"

If there is no God--everything is permitted, isn't it? Why do you Communist insist that every Capitalist is in the garment business?

So either God chose you to be great, or you're WONDERFULLY superior. What self righteousness!

A win/win situation, isn't it? He who dies with the most toys wins, right? :D

Condescension≠Justification for god. If there is no God, I might as well take all that I can get. If I have to run you over in doing so, it's nothing personal--just business.

Hopefully one of them is a straightjacket.

A question Fourth: Do you believe that Marxism is a science?

I'm curious as to how many people believe that.

Kami

23rd April 2008, 01:46

If there is no God--everything is permitted, isn't it? Why do you Communist insist that every Capitalist is in the garment business?
There's these things called ethics and morality; they don't have to have a divine source, you know.

A win/win situation, isn't it? He who dies with the most toys wins, right? http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/biggrin.gif
Nope, Win/Win/Lose/Lose/Lose... repeat ad nauseum. You just neglect to recognise these other options

If there is no God, I might as well take all that I can get. If I have to run you over in doing so, it's nothing personal--just business.
Great, and there being no God, people won't put up with you doing that. If you really do need a coercive force, or someone watching you constantly, to be good, I'll be standing behind you with a cricket bat. okay?

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 01:49

Hegelianism is a far better explanation of how the world works than religion.
Idealism has it's limits. I think the world is best explained through dualism not monism. I definitely assert that there is an idealistic component to the world, though.

I suggest you research the meaning of the term "Science."

I'm using the definition most thrown about here on revLeft--when in Rome----

Like why that dipshit Pre-Teen who believes Canada is socialist was dehydrated on his playground and started hallucinating? Oh wait, yes, there is an explanation for that- and it's scientific.

I have no idea what you are talking about--really.

Awful Reality

23rd April 2008, 01:50

If there is no God--everything is permitted, isn't it? Why do you Communist insist that every Capitalist is in the garment business? Child Labor≠Garment Business.

A win/win situation, isn't it? He who dies with the most toys wins, right? :D
He who dies with the most guns wins.

If there is no God, I might as well take all that I can get. If I have to run you over in doing so, it's nothing personal--just business.
Morals, anybody? Going once? Twice?

A question Fourth: Do you believe that Marxism is a science?

I'm curious as to how many people believe that.

Again: Please define science for me.

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 01:54

The key word here is "is", ("is" is!). Can you name me another tried and true meathod of knowing what is in the universe? If not, we have to work with what we have.

Sure: Art, music, etc. Such things explore the universe in a different way than science, but there is insight in such things.

In that case, we have a much greater problem. Where is this God, if not everywhere? (and is omnipresence no longer in the normal doctrine?)

But then there's the question: why does something alway have to be somewhere? Where is Love?

Bud Struggle

23rd April 2008, 02:00

Morals, anybody? Going once? Twice?

Morals is a relative term isn't it? What's moral for me may not be moral for you. Who is the judge of what is moral?

Again: Please define science for me.

For me it's any information that can be gotten from observable phemomena and that can be tested and retested to get the same results. (Probably not perfect but that's the gist of it in a nutshell.)

Kami

23rd April 2008, 02:01

Sure: Art, music, etc. Such things explore the universe in a different way than science, but there is insight in such things.Pardon? As a musician, I must object! I play for aesthetic pleasure, not to gain knowledge about the universe. I can't see how this is possible, at all. Insight, perhaps, but that requires the data to already be there.

But then there's the question: why does something alway have to be somewhere? Where is Love?Love is a concept, it doesn't really exist. I trust you don't argue the same for God? Things need to be somewhere, else they're nowhere, and if they're nowhere, they're not there ^^

Kami

23rd April 2008, 02:03

Morals is a relative term isn't it? What's moral for me may not be moral for you. Who is the judge of what is moral?
Definately not a sky-daddy, I can tell you that much ^^
Morals are subjective, though, I give you that. This actually works against your argument they need to have a source, though.

eyedrop

23rd April 2008, 15:22

Tomk sorry for just mismashing quotes from you together.

Sure: Art, music, etc. Such things explore the universe in a different way than science, but there is insight in such things.Sure but they don't really tell us anything about what the universe is and how it works. They can maybe give us an other view on it but I don't see how it contradicts science at all.

On the topic of marxism as a science I kinda agree with you. It has the same faults as all the social sciences, they can at best be called hypothesises that can theoretically be tested but we don't have the possibility to do a controlled experiment on them. Kinda like when the nationonal bank here says that they are gonna put the interest down a few points and then the econemy would be affected in that way. But it doesn't get affected in that way. There are way to many changeable factors playing for us to still have a hope of predicting it precise.

Basicly agreeing with your definition of sciences but yet it's still only a method that can be adapted for the hard sciences.

But then there's the question: why does something alway have to be somewhere? Where is Love?Love is a concept that exists in your brain cells and their interactions basicly.

Morals is a relative term isn't it? What's moral for me may not be moral for you. Who is the judge of what is moral?
My morals are what would make me the most happy. I don't know if it's the best moral but I'm willing to take a shot, doesn't lose that much anyway. It wouldn't make me happy to stab down the next person, well maybe at times but there consequenses to it, and I would hinder anyone doing it out of pure self-interest.

A win/win situation, isn't it? He who dies with the most toys wins, right? http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/biggrin.gifNobody wins life, there's just existence and non-existance. While you exist you might as well mmake the most out of it though. For me that's not collecting as many toys as possible, sure I can't say that it's not for you but it is not in my self interest that you collect as many toys as possible. I'm a egoistical bastard ain't I? Hate being to burials and having to pretend to care about people, that has only caused irritation in my life.