Justify this - why you and not some random Chinese? or Ethio

[Hattori Hanzo]

Why do you deserve more money than anyone else?
in fact, you have so much more money than most people in the world that if all the world's funds were redistributed, then every person would have about $5.oo That's alot of people you have to starve or massacre every day!

[Moskitto]

Egbert Powell (The Simpsons) - "All a man needs is an idea, and some money to get it off the ground."

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:02 pm on July 12, 2002
Why do you deserve more money than anyone else?
in fact, you have so much more money than most people in the world that if all the world's funds were redistributed, then every person would have about $5.oo That's alot of people you have to starve or massacre every day!

I deserve exactly what I earn.

Why does someone that gives no original ideas and contibutes nothing to our advancement be rewarded the exact same as someone who is benefitting mankind so much more through hard work and industrious thinking? Self determination of individuals is key to ideas that benefit the community. Reward for those ideas is the incentive.

[Hattori Hanzo]

so you think you are just better than those poorer than you?
LOL LOL man!
get some morals!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:14 pm on July 12, 2002
so you think you are just better than those poorer than you?
LOL LOL man!
get some morals!

Not even close,hattori, what I think is that individuals should be rewarded for the work they put into something. I don't think I am better than people less successful (or with less $$) than me. I think that I deserve compensation for my efforts, nothing more.

[Hattori Hanzo]

this is true, as long as you egt money from your accomplishments alone

[Anonymous]

"And the men got tired of being poor, of die from hunger, so they joined together and lived without money or leaders like a flock without shepherd" So talked zaratustra (defenition of supermen)
Supermen= anarchism

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:35 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:14 pm on July 12, 2002
so you think you are just better than those poorer than you?
LOL LOL man!
get some morals!

Not even close,hattori, what I think is that individuals should be rewarded for the work they put into something. I don't think I am better than people less successful (or with less $$) than me. I think that I deserve compensation for my efforts, nothing more.



But if you are a board member of the company and you didn't come up with the idea, figure out how to make the idea work, and sure as hell didn't build it

why should he be paid more than the people that did the work

[ComradeJunichi]

what about the people who work in sweatshops?

[Fuck A Capitalist]

In this country along with every other capitilast country the exact oppsite occurs from what your saying. The more a person produces and creates the less he earns. The only way people earn money is by securing the methods of production and claiming it belongs to them.
And by the way what the fuck have you done to better our lives and advance civilization?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 9:13 pm on July 12, 2002


But if you are a board member of the company and you didn't come up with the idea, figure out how to make the idea work, and sure as hell didn't build it

why should he be paid more than the people that did the work


Because that is what the labor market brings, the board member's intelligence and experience is a very valuable commodity in the labor market. It us usually much more difficult making varied mental deciscions regarding millions in assets constantly than it is to repetitively weld the same part on an assebly line all day. Many people can successfully do the latter, relatively few can successfully do the former.

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 11:53 pm on July 12, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from ComradeJunichi on 9:49 pm on July 12, 2002
what about the people who work in sweatshops?


Labor laws and standards are the responsibility of the host nation. Relative to the nation's alternatives, sweatshops are no worse than other labor options in those markets. And they still help those local economies.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from ComradeJunichi on 9:49 pm on July 12, 2002
what about the people who work in sweatshops?


Labor laws and standards are the responsibility of the host nation. Relative to the nation's alternatives, sweatshops are no worse than other labor options in those markets. And they still help those local economies.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Fuck A Capitalist on 11:19 pm on July 12, 2002
In this country along with every other capitilast country the exact oppsite occurs from what your saying. The more a person produces and creates the less he earns. The only way people earn money is by securing the methods of production and claiming it belongs to them.
And by the way what the fuck have you done to better our lives and advance civilization?


No, the more a person creates the more he earns. Can you give an example of your point of view?

I provide the market with a service in demand.

[vox]

"No, the more a person creates the more he earns. Can you give an example of your point of view?"

Gold miners in the 1800's. The gold, which had, very obviosly, the value, was mined by, again quite obviously, miners. However, the person who held the deed to the land was rewarded with the vast majority of the wealth. Another example is coal mining. It took no special skills to own the mines, of course. It only took capital to own them, hence "capitalism," a system which rewards owning capital. The work, which is the only thing that made the mines valuable, was not rewarded in kind, but with threats and danger (reading about the history of US labor is an enlightening experience, one that is downplayed in US schools, both public and private).

"I provide the market with a service in demand."

And tomorrow you may not, depending on what it is you do. People in the 1970's who repaired typewriters could say, "I provide the market with a service in demand." However, they no longer do, yes?

Skill is not a standard. Capital is the only standard in a capitalist economy.

vox

[Hattori Hanzo]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:56 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from ComradeJunichi on 9:49 pm on July 12, 2002
what about the people who work in sweatshops?

well, the US usually puts pressure on countries to lower the standaards on labor (wages, conditions, etc.)

Labor laws and standards are the responsibility of the host nation. Relative to the nation's alternatives, sweatshops are no worse than other labor options in those markets. And they still help those local economies.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:07 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:02 pm on July 12, 2002
Why do you deserve more money than anyone else?
in fact, you have so much more money than most people in the world that if all the world's funds were redistributed, then every person would have about $5.oo That's alot of people you have to starve or massacre every day!

I deserve exactly what I earn.

Why does someone that gives no original ideas and contibutes nothing to our advancement be rewarded the exact same as someone who is benefitting mankind so much more through hard work and industrious thinking? Self determination of individuals is key to ideas that benefit the community. Reward for those ideas is the incentive.
First of all, I'd like to know how you benefit mankind so much.

When multinational companies move factories from the US to China, they go from paying minimum wage to paying 25 cents per hour for the same exact job. I don't see how the American helped out mankind more than the Chinese man did. Please enlighten me.

Lindsay

[Hattori Hanzo]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 7:17 pm on July 15, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:56 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from ComradeJunichi on 9:49 pm on July 12, 2002
what about the people who work in sweatshops?

well, the US usually puts pressure on countries to lower the standaards on labor (wages, conditions, etc.)

Labor laws and standards are the responsibility of the host nation. Relative to the nation's alternatives, sweatshops are no worse than other labor options in those markets. And they still help those local economies.


<oops>
the us puts pressure on countries to lower thr standards of their labor laws

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 7:27 pm on July 15, 2002
First of all, I'd like to know how you benefit mankind so much.

When multinational companies move factories from the US to China, they go from paying minimum wage to paying 25 cents per hour for the same exact job. I don't see how the American helped out mankind more than the Chinese man did. Please enlighten me.

Lindsay


I'm talking ideas, like the harnessing of electricity, the internet, the telephone, the railroad, the TV, the airplane, the assembly line

...just a few "small" U.S. inventions

[I Will Deny You]

I don't see what you're getting at. And you still haven't told me what your job is.

Lindsay

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from vox on 12:12 am on July 13, 2002
"No, the more a person creates the more he earns. Can you give an example of your point of view?"


Gold miners in the 1800's. The gold, which had, very obviosly, the value, was mined by, again quite obviously, miners. However, the person who held the deed to the land was rewarded with the vast majority of the wealth. Another example is coal mining. It took no special skills to own the mines, of course. It only took capital to own them, hence "capitalism," a system which rewards owning capital. The work, which is the only thing that made the mines valuable, was not rewarded in kind, but with threats and danger (reading about the history of US labor is an enlightening experience, one that is downplayed in US schools, both public and private).

"I provide the market with a service in demand."

And tomorrow you may not, depending on what it is you do. People in the 1970's who repaired typewriters could say, "I provide the market with a service in demand." However, they no longer do, yes?

Skill is not a standard. Capital is the only standard in a capitalist economy.

vox


Well, it took talent and work to find the mine is the 1st place. No one would have benefitted, including the workers, if someone who found the mine hadn't stepped up. The capitalist merely paid a fair price (if the stake was not originally his) for the mine and, through processing, added value to the original material.

Any of the workers in a given operation could go and find a claim and stake it. Again, the cornerstone in my arguement for capitalism lies on the ability to cross class barriers, it basically comes down to choice.

Said miners worked voluntarily, with full knowledge that they could go off themselves, find a mine, and stake the claim themselves.

[peace]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:07 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:02 pm on July 12, 2002
Why do you deserve more money than anyone else?
in fact, you have so much more money than most people in the world that if all the world's funds were redistributed, then every person would have about $5.oo That's alot of people you have to starve or massacre every day!

I deserve exactly what I earn.

Why does someone that gives no original ideas and contibutes nothing to our advancement be rewarded the exact same as someone who is benefitting mankind so much more through hard work and industrious thinking? Self determination of individuals is key to ideas that benefit the community. Reward for those ideas is the incentive.



the problem that i see is that those rewards are always in terms of money and power. Once you came up with a good idea and you are on top you do everything to keep your power and destroy those with better ideas and less power (e.g. Microsoft or any oil company). Their goal is not benefiting the world but making money and increasing power.
The people that are actually rewarded are the people that should be punished.
The "good idea" you are talking about makes you the enemy of the powerfull and they'll do what it takes to avoid you being rewarded for it.

If you live in a different system where the only reward you get is the respekt of people seeing you in the supermarket, would you keep your original idea by yourself (if you had it) just because you wouldn't get rich and powerfull?

I believe everybody has the same right to live. Even a disabeled person, that hasn't accomplished anything deserves the same amout of money as anyone else. Those people smarter, better, stronger, the ones with "ideas" will be rewarded by society...

Dennis

[vox]

"Well, it took talent and work to find the mine is the 1st place. No one would have benefitted, including the workers, if someone who found the mine hadn't stepped up. The capitalist merely paid a fair price (if the stake was not originally his) for the mine and, through processing, added value to the original material."

Well, looking at the price paid for mining on public land leads me to think we have very different ideas of "fair price." Also, the capitalist had to have something to "process," though my understanding is the capitalist himself didn't do the actual processing.

"Any of the workers in a given operation could go and find a claim and stake it. Again, the cornerstone in my arguement for capitalism lies on the ability to cross class barriers, it basically comes down to choice."

Yes, but, if you knew the history of gold mining in California, for example, you would know that mining a mine yourself provided nothing but a subsistence existence. It was only when the division of labor was introduced by the capitalist class that gold mines produced wealth. The miner still got the subsistence existence, the capitalist got rich. (Source (http://www.duke.edu/~agf2/history391/labor.html))

"Said miners worked voluntarily, with full knowledge that they could go off themselves, find a mine, and stake the claim themselves."

Perhaps some of them, but mostly it was a choice between starving or working for almost nothing. Which is better?

Also, you very conveniently left out the huge number of Chinese workers, basically slave labor, that mined. This is something believers in free markets NEVER talk about, of course, for it throws their whole theory out of whack, but the fact of forced Chinese labor remains, and, regardless of its inconvenience, you have to deal with it.

vox