Was Jesus a Socialist?

[Commie Canuck 15]

Just curious what you think, do you think Jesus was a socialist or not?

[Lardlad95]

Personally I don't Jesus neeeded a political affiliation. He didn't want us to be caught up in money. All political groups revolve around how money is used.

I would call him a Utopian since he wants us to live in a Utopian and perfect society

[Stormin Norman]

This topic was covered under another thread. Jeez! Can you guys think of any new material or is your imagination really that limited?

[suffianr]

No, but Jehovah was a Republican.

[Josip Broz Tito]

Jesus was not fucking socialist, actually, he never existed. All of that is only opium for people. WAKE UP !!!!

[RedCeltic]

The Following Statement was made by Eugene V. Debs while Speaking to a reporter for Call from his prison cell in 1919 while serving time for making anti-war speeches.

"I told my friends of the cloth that I did not believe Christ was meek and lowly but a real living, vital agitator who went into the temple with a lash and a krout and whipped the oppressors of the poor, routed them out of the doors and spilled their blood and got silver on the floor. He told the robbed and misruled and exploited and driven people to disobey their plunderers, he denounced the profiteers, and it was for this that they nailed his quivering body to the cross and spiked it to the gates of Jerusalem, not because he told them to love one another. That was harmless doctrine. But when he touched their profits and denounced them before their people he was marked for crucifixion."

[Capitalist Imperial]

Jesus was just a regular carpenter who realized one day that he could make more money scamming as a "prophet". So he started a cult.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:58 pm on July 8, 2002
Jesus was just a regular carpenter who realized one day that he could make more money scamming as a "prophet". So he started a cult.

lol, sort of like L. Ron Hubbard and that Scientology stuff..

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 12:02 am on July 9, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:58 pm on July 8, 2002
Jesus was just a regular carpenter who realized one day that he could make more money scamming as a "prophet". So he started a cult.

lol, sort of like L. Ron Hubbard and that Scientology stuff..

exactly, or like david koresh, or jim jones, pick any self-proclaimed profit. What makes them any different from jesus?

[Felicia]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:06 pm on July 8, 2002
What makes them any different from jesus?

Nothing, the intelligent people have just now learned to be skeptical.

[Lardlad95]

This is complete bullshit.

Wether you guys believe in God or not is no reason to insult religion.

Also Jesus probably did exist wether he was the son of God or a scam artist is subject to debate.

The Buddah existed wether his were right or not is subject to debate.

The fact that you people have some really unnecassary hate towards religion does not mean that people in history didn't exist.

also felicia thats really wrong of you to call followers of any religion unitellegent.

This forum needs to stop acting all high and mighty towards people who belong to a religion.

[Capitalist Fighter]

I agree 100% with Lardlad95. Stop trying to defame religion and our saviour Jesus. Whether or not you believe in Him, that doesn't matter, what matters is you show respect for those who do believe in Him.

[RedCeltic]

Well the truth is that it doesn't matter it Jesus was a true revolutionary, a true 'son of a god'... or if he just made it all up for the money.

What does matter is the moral code that is in the book. I don't particularly care for all the sexist crap in the bible, but it's your right to believe what you want to believe... so long as it doesn't mean that your going to ram your beliefs down other's thoughts.

(Taken from Monty Python "Encyclopedia salesman skit" )

* Ding Dong *

Woman: (answered door) "hello?"
Man:"Burglar!"[/b]
Woman:"Your not a Bible thumper now are you?"
Man:"No ma'am.. I just want to come in, ransack the flat and be gone.
Woman:"Your not going to sell me on salvation now are you?"
Man:"No ma'am, I'm just a burglar, like I said."
Woman:(undoing the chain) "Well as long as your not a Jehovah Whiteness"
Man:( gets foot in door) " But tell me do you truly know the advantages of knowing your lord Jesus Christ and owning your very own ticket to salvation?"

[Stormin Norman]

I said it last time this topic was considered and I will say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, since Jesus was diametrically opposed to such evils as theft and murder, one could only come to the conclusion that he would have been anticommunist. The backbone of Marxist ideas is supported by the idea that a political faction would murderously overthrow the sitting government, steal the wealth of the nation, exterminate dissidents and oppress peoples freedoms. If you think Jesus would support such things, then I suggest you missed the general idea behind the Christian creed.
True, Jesus supported men helping one another and good samaritanism, but the war in heaven was fought over free agency. Lucifer wanted to make everyone equally pure in order to create the perfect world and guarantee every soul made it into heaven. Sound like a familiar idea? Jesus was of the faction that men should prove their character by being given a choice. For these reasons, I would say that Lucifer would have preferred the communist state, where as, Jesus would have supported the notion of free enterprise.

[Anonymous]

He wasnt a socialist but he was a Buddhist.

[Lardlad95]

Norman, was Jesus apposed to people sharing their wealth. Apposed to equality?

Do you think Jesus wanted a class society? Were people were placed below other people? Were there was enequality? Maybe its you who misread his message.

But like I said Jesus was peobably a Utopian niether communist socialist or capitalist.

OH yeah, Norman I have a book suggestion for you its Called the Dispensational Truth you should read it you may find it interesting (it isn't about politics though)

[Supermodel]

There is fundamental historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha. Mohammed and Buddha never claimed deity, just that they were prophets and they (and their religions, along with judaism) consider Jesus to be a prophet, not a deity. Only Christians believe in the deity of Jesus.

I think you can conclude that Jesus was a very influential socialist, whether you concede his deity or not. The New tetsament along with many of the proverbs are fundamentally socialist writings.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Supermodel on 6:10 pm on July 9, 2002
There is fundamental historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha. Mohammed and Buddha never claimed deity, just that they were prophets and they (and their religions, along with judaism) consider Jesus to be a prophet, not a deity. Only Christians believe in the deity of Jesus.

I think you can conclude that Jesus was a very influential socialist, whether you concede his deity or not. The New tetsament along with many of the proverbs are fundamentally socialist writings.

He also believed in free thinking, individual choice, and individual responsibility. These are democratic, capitalistic traits.

[Lardlad95]

Ci quit the bullshit ok. Get this Soviet bad US good mentality out of your head.

What makes you think Socialists don't like free thinking? God you compare every socialist or communist thing to Stalin's control and shit like that.

Get this through your head we aren't all like that. If this country ever became socialist I wouldn't kill all the capitalist just because they thought differently.

Also democratic and capitalist don't go hand in hand if they did then The Democrats and Republicans wouldnt get government funding and the other political parties would have a chance.

Also It is the Church that turned Jesus into a diety, read from Jesus to christ. Jesus didn't technically say he was a diety. The term son of God can reffre to a holy man or prophet seeing as how it is also said that we are all gods children and obviously we can't all be dieties.

[Hattori Hanzo]

he had no political beliefs
go lardlad!

[Hattori Hanzo]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 10:39 am on July 9, 2002
I said it last time this topic was considered and I will say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, since Jesus was diametrically opposed to such evils as theft and murder, one could only come to the conclusion that he would have been anticommunist. The backbone of Marxist ideas is supported by the idea that a political faction would murderously overthrow the sitting government, steal the wealth of the nation, exterminate dissidents and oppress peoples freedoms. If you think Jesus would support such things, then I suggest you missed the general idea behind the Christian creed.
True, Jesus supported men helping one another and good samaritanism, but the war in heaven was fought over free agency. Lucifer wanted to make everyone equally pure in order to create the perfect world and guarantee every soul made it into heaven. Sound like a familiar idea? Jesus was of the faction that men should prove their character by being given a choice. For these reasons, I would say that Lucifer would have preferred the communist state, where as, Jesus would have supported the notion of free enterprise.

what is your source for this story of lucifer and jesus? (if in bible, then at least tell me what book)

[Lardlad95]

Lucifer fought Micheal in the war of Heaven. Lucifer's vaity led him to believe that he was greater than the lord.

Also lucifer had been slipping up before that when the pre adamite earth existed he was placed in charge of it yet the people were chaotic, he did not do his job. THey were savages

[Moskitto]

Jesus was just a regular carpenter who realized one day that he could make more money scamming as a "prophet". So he started a cult.


The explaination I heard was that he was political dissident against the Roman Empire who was executed for his activities and some of his followers broke away from Judaism and started a new religion based on some things that he said but changed the story to make his life sound much more holy than it really was.

I found an essay once on a Toaist website about Jesus being a Toaist and that's why only 1 thing happened to him in the bible between his birth and when he was 30 (He was in China.)

[Felicia]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 8:52 pm on July 8, 2002


Wether you guys believe in God or not is no reason to insult religion.

Also Jesus probably did exist wether he was the son of God or a scam artist is subject to debate.

The Buddah existed wether his were right or not is subject to debate.

also felicia thats really wrong of you to call followers of any religion unitellegent.

This forum needs to stop acting all high and mighty towards people who belong to a religion.


First of all I've belonged to many religious groups, including Christian, I believe that there was a man named Jesus that was born 2000 years ago. I also went through a Buddhist phase, even thought of becomming a nun (don't laugh). I didn't mean that religious followers are unintelligent (I was refering to some current cults that command the killing of people as being 'the word of god'), if it came off that way I appologize.

(Edited by felicia at 7:32 pm on July 9, 2002)


(Edited by felicia at 7:48 pm on July 9, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 8:49 pm on July 9, 2002
Ci quit the bullshit ok. Get this Soviet bad US good mentality out of your head.

What makes you think Socialists don't like free thinking? God you compare every socialist or communist thing to Stalin's control and shit like that.

Get this through your head we aren't all like that. If this country ever became socialist I wouldn't kill all the capitalist just because they thought differently.

Also democratic and capitalist don't go hand in hand if they did then The Democrats and Republicans wouldnt get government funding and the other political parties would have a chance.

Also It is the Church that turned Jesus into a diety, read from Jesus to christ. Jesus didn't technically say he was a diety. The term son of God can reffre to a holy man or prophet seeing as how it is also said that we are all gods children and obviously we can't all be dieties.


Ci quit the bullshit ok. Get this Soviet bad US good mentality out of your head.

Never

What makes you think Socialists don't like free thinking?

State controlled media, no right to protest, no right to assemble against the state, and the illegality of speaking against the government.

God you compare every socialist or communist thing to Stalin's control and shit like that.

That is what it alwways evolves into, look at history.

Get this through your head we aren't all like that. If this country ever became socialist I wouldn't kill all the capitalist just because they thought differently.

This country wouldn't, but if it did, I would not kill randomly either, but I would organize a militia to re-revolutionize the true united states

Also democratic and capitalist don't go hand in hand if they did then The Democrats and Republicans wouldnt get government funding and the other political parties would have a chance.

They don't get government funding, they raise their own funds. All other parties can do the same thing, most americans are not interested in their platforms, so support is low. Learn our political process before you make claims.

Also It is the Church that turned Jesus into a diety, read from Jesus to christ. Jesus didn't technically say he was a diety. The term son of God can reffre to a holy man or prophet seeing as how it is also said that we are all gods children and obviously we can't all be dieties.

That is subject to debate

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 9:01 pm on July 9, 2002
Lucifer fought Micheal in the war of Heaven. Lucifer's vaity led him to believe that he was greater than the lord.

Also lucifer had been slipping up before that when the pre adamite earth existed he was placed in charge of it yet the people were chaotic, he did not do his job. THey were savages


fiction, fiction, fiction

[Lardlad95]

CI everything I said reffering to Lucifer is in the Bible Read Dispensational Truth to find the passeges.


Damn CI you really are a tool. I mean you don't know me, yet you can tell me that my beliefs mean that I don't want to allow free speech?

My God you are really brainwashed. I mean you seem to think the US is fucking perfect.

i can understand you disagreeing with me atleast i don't say all capitalist are the same. You however group me with stalinist, marxist, and communist because to you believe they are all the same thing.

Thats really wrong of you to genralize us all like that. You need to understand that we aren't all the same.

>>>>State controlled media, no right to protest, no right to assemble against the state, and the illegality of speaking against the government.<<<


Get this through your head...that isn't me, that isn't my belief. I don't agree with any of that.

I even disagreed with fellow Socialist/communist about that.

>>>This country wouldn't, but if it did, I would not kill randomly either, but I would organize a militia to re-revolutionize the true united states<<<


and you would put the poor right back were they came from wouldn't you?

Why don't you want people to be equal....oh thats right you want to keep the niggers spics and chinks in their fucking places don't you.

But why stop there, there are poor white people also aren't there.

You take back the US and put the Wasps right back at the top.

In fact it isn't even about race, why do you want inequality why do you want rich and poor.

Why do you want people to stay in the dirt? Why do you want children to starve? Why do you want people to be given in adequate education why do you want a select few to control this country?

Are you that damn sadistic that you want people to suffer.

Do you want people to be fired just because the company doesn't want them to have pension?



>>>They don't get government funding, they raise their own funds. All other parties can do the same thing, most americans are not interested in their platforms, so support is low. Learn our political process before you make claims. <<<

I'm sorry I meant funding from Companies and other rich people.

Do you honestly think that they raise their own money? what they have bake sales? No they get money from countries and rich people.

Do you seriously think poor people like being poor? They can't get parties that are serious about helping them because they are poor.

You put to much faith in this country. Grow up in a ghetto filled with drugs then look at how much your country cares about you

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:39 am on July 10, 2002
CI everything I said reffering to Lucifer is in the Bible Read Dispensational Truth to find the passeges.




Like I said, fiction.

And I wouldn't call others brainwashed considering that you honestly believe in mythology

[Lardlad95]

see thats your problem you show no respect for peoples beliefs.

You need to go back to kindergarden and learn respect for others with the other people that act 5 years old

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:58 am on July 10, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:39 am on July 10, 2002
CI everything I said reffering to Lucifer is in the Bible Read Dispensational Truth to find the passeges.




Like I said, fiction.

And I wouldn't call others brainwashed considering that you honestly believe in mythology


I was not brainwashed i do not believe in God because someone told me to if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't.

You on the other hand think everything the US did is just.

and why didn' you reply to everything else I said?

[Capitalist Fighter]

CI, show some respect. People who believe in God aren't brainwashed. Or are we unintelligent or anything less than an atheist. Accept it. We share different religious views. Don't insult us.

[Lardlad95]

Exactley.

Ci just because we disagree that doesn't make me a moron.

We disagree on Politics that doesn't make you a moron. Your a very intellegent person but we can still disagree.

Everything would be fine if you learned to show respect.

[RedCeltic]

The truth of the matter is that the Bible both contradicts and supports both Socialism and Capitalism.

The Bible teaches privite ownership, which is a belief in capltialism. Therefore The Bible supports Capitalism.

However, The Bible also endorses mercy, to feed the poor, and to help the weak. Thus the Bible way is not capitalism, because capitalism, under the profit decision matrix, does not feed the poor nor does it help the weak. The Bible way is not socialism, because socialism does not allow for private owenership

[Lardlad95]

but technicaly Socialism or Modern socialism allows for some private buisness

when it doesn't aloow some private buisness it is usualy catorgarized as communism

[Ernest Everhard]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 8:57 am on July 10, 2002
The truth of the matter is that the Bible both contradicts and supports both Socialism and Capitalism.

The Bible teaches privite ownership, which is a belief in capltialism. Therefore The Bible supports Capitalism.

However, The Bible also endorses mercy, to feed the poor, and to help the weak. Thus the Bible way is not capitalism, because capitalism, under the profit decision matrix, does not feed the poor nor does it help the weak. The Bible way is not socialism, because socialism does not allow for private owenership


How does capitalism not feed the poor, capitalism feeds more people everyday than any other system has over the course of their existance. Profit decision matrix, RC, why do you persist in talking out of your ass. Capitalism and capitalist are not concerned with rate of profit, but maximization of profit, total surplus. This surplus is a reflection not of the capitalists' well-being but of society's well being. I invite a more detailed discussion.

(Edited by Ernest Everhard at 10:37 am on July 10, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Go visit a ghetto...oh yeah the Us is doing so fucking much for its people.

Man this country hates the poor, who have no say in anything.

Even when the poor make it they still don't make it. How comfortable does a rich black man who made it out of poverty feel when he's in a room full of rich white people? This country don't care about its poor, it shuns them

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Ernest Everhard on 11:34 pm on July 9, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 8:57 am on July 10, 2002
The truth of the matter is that the Bible both contradicts and supports both Socialism and Capitalism.

The Bible teaches privite ownership, which is a belief in capltialism. Therefore The Bible supports Capitalism.

However, The Bible also endorses mercy, to feed the poor, and to help the weak. Thus the Bible way is not capitalism, because capitalism, under the profit decision matrix, does not feed the poor nor does it help the weak. The Bible way is not socialism, because socialism does not allow for private owenership


How does capitalism not feed the poor, capitalism feeds more people everyday than any other system has over the course of their existance. Profit decision matrix, RC, why do you persist in talking out of your ass. Capitalism and capitalist are not concerned with rate of profit, but maximization of profit, total surplus. This surplus is a reflection not of the capitalists' well-being but of society's well being. I invite a more detailed discussion.

(Edited by Ernest Everhard at 10:37 am on July 10, 2002)


I'm not talking out of my ass. The Bible also endorses mercy, to feed the poor, and to help the weak. Thus the Bible way is not capitalism.

If capitalism did this, there would be no need for charities and government programs.

[Stormin Norman]

As I am not a religious scholar and do not have all of my information footnoted, I am unable to give you the precise passages that deal with the war in heaven. I do know that they exist and I remember reading them and discussing them in Sunday school. Sorry I don't have the kind of time necessary to sift through and find them for you.
There was a good movie that delt with the war in heaven and the on going struggle on earth. Christopher Walken was the lead role and its title is "The Prophecy". Great flick, but not the authoritative scholar you require. Check it out anyway.

[RedCeltic]

I'm not an Xtian, however have read enough of it to make arguments from their text.

This is from Matthew 6:

19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


Also from Matthew 6:

24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?


Plus, there's always Matthew 5:

43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pretty straightforward stuff there.

[Anonymous]

By a mather of fact jesus did exist! but he was just a revolted jew! he was socialist cause he believed that every men was equal, e was against the tax colectors, he called them devils, he had a deadly enemy: Rome, and those days Rome was capitalist, the money ruled over everything! he used to say to people that overworking was bad! he said that people should work only the enough to fed and give some confort to themselfs! well this is against the capitalist way, were the harder you work the more money you get! he was socialist! maby the first socialist in the world!!! He was too advanced to the epoch he lived!!!! so people didnt understend him!!and people still dont underrstand him! and now he made the oposit thing he wanted! he wanted a non-roman(capitalist) midle east, and now he his used by all tyrans and all capitalists!!!

[Lardlad95]

good point

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 3:51 am on July 10, 2002
Exactley.

Ci just because we disagree that doesn't make me a moron.

We disagree on Politics that doesn't make you a moron. Your a very intellegent person but we can still disagree.

Everything would be fine if you learned to show respect.


OK, OK, I respect your beliefs. Its just that with everything we know now about science and the universe, and knowing that mankind has had thousands of mythologies throughout history, isn't it easy to see that all religions are just modern mythologies?

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs?

Or the new world and the native americans?

Do you really believe that a man created a feast for thousands out of mid-air with one loaf of bread and 1 fish?

Do you really believe the same man rose from the dead after 3 days?

Do you really believe someone "parted" an entire sea?

Do you really believe that someone took a male and female from each animal and survived for 40 days and nights as the entire earth flooded (a physical impossibility for this to happen over 40 days/nights) and then repopulated the entire earth?

Do you really think the universe was created in 7 days and 7 nights, when scientific proof shows it took billions and billions of years??

And then, your belief system demands that you simply believe this on faith!!! That makes it seem so romanticized and spiritual, but it is just another mechanism of the scam!!!

It was a fictional book written thousands of years ago, before we had science and a better understanding of the universe. People thought the earth was flat back then, too, and that the sun revolved around the earth!!!

People just need an explanation of life, they can't accept that we still don't know what it is all about. They also want to defy their mortality, so they come up with a concept of "heaven" to deal with their fear of death and mortality.

I'm sorry to say, but that is how I see it. We are merely advanced mammals still telling each other stories to reassure ourselves that we know what life is about, when in fact we really don't.

Only when we stop embracing mythology and truely pursue science can we advance together.

[Hattori Hanzo]

unless we both shed our money, we will never truly advance at all

[Avamatha]

There is an old Commiehouse here in Kemi, and thee are some writings on the outwall. I once read them, this was a part of it: "I, Jesus, were the first socialist!"

..Must be a very old house...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Avamatha on 12:49 am on July 11, 2002
There is an old Commiehouse here in Kemi, and thee are some writings on the outwall. I once read them, this was a part of it: "I, Jesus, were the first socialist!"

..Must be a very old house...

Where is Kemi?

[Moskitto]

I believe I heard a sermon once that basically said that you can't put Jesus in a box because he was so many different things.

Oh yeah and religious people are sooooo unintelligent aren't they, I mean world renouned physicist Stephen Hawking must be a total retard and i can never imagine Russell Standard ever doing anything requiring an IQ of above 60.

Geee, athiests really have not studied their arguements very well in many cases.

And CI, the Bible should not be taken literally by anyone, that is foolish and results in obesity.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 8:25 pm on July 10, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 3:51 am on July 10, 2002
Exactley.

Ci just because we disagree that doesn't make me a moron.

We disagree on Politics that doesn't make you a moron. Your a very intellegent person but we can still disagree.

Everything would be fine if you learned to show respect.


OK, OK, I respect your beliefs. Its just that with everything we know now about science and the universe, and knowing that mankind has had thousands of mythologies throughout history, isn't it easy to see that all religions are just modern mythologies?

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs?

Or the new world and the native americans?

Do you really believe that a man created a feast for thousands out of mid-air with one loaf of bread and 1 fish?

Do you really believe the same man rose from the dead after 3 days?

Do you really believe someone "parted" an entire sea?

Do you really believe that someone took a male and female from each animal and survived for 40 days and nights as the entire earth flooded (a physical impossibility for this to happen over 40 days/nights) and then repopulated the entire earth?

Do you really think the universe was created in 7 days and 7 nights, when scientific proof shows it took billions and billions of years??

And then, your belief system demands that you simply believe this on faith!!! That makes it seem so romanticized and spiritual, but it is just another mechanism of the scam!!!

It was a fictional book written thousands of years ago, before we had science and a better understanding of the universe. People thought the earth was flat back then, too, and that the sun revolved around the earth!!!

People just need an explanation of life, they can't accept that we still don't know what it is all about. They also want to defy their mortality, so they come up with a concept of "heaven" to deal with their fear of death and mortality.

I'm sorry to say, but that is how I see it. We are merely advanced mammals still telling each other stories to reassure ourselves that we know what life is about, when in fact we really don't.

Only when we stop embracing mythology and truely pursue science can we advance together.


>>>OK, OK, I respect your beliefs. Its just that with everything we know now about science and the universe, and knowing that mankind has had thousands of mythologies throughout history, isn't it easy to see that all religions are just modern mythologies?<<<

Science hasn't given me an explanation on how the universe came into being, religion has.

The big bang theory doesn't make sense because an explosion can't be started from nothing.

Also alot of mythologies have the same things in them for instance Greek myths had a flood that covered the entire earth wiping out all but some of humanity, so its my personal belief that it did happen since it isn't just christians who said it happened.

>>>Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs<<<

The preadamite earth. The Bible is mainly concerned with the earth after Adam.

The preadamite earth had neanderthals and other different animals. That earth was never completeley destroyed but it was remodeled to make this one. All the fossils were never destroyed which is why we can find them now.

>>>Or the new world and the native americans<<<

It mentions that people lef to different parts of the earth. However those areas and people had nothing to do with the bibles message.

>>>Do you really believe that a man created a feast for thousands out of mid-air with one loaf of bread and 1 fish?<<<

It was a miracle, besides stranger things have happened. There is alot that is unexplained in the world and you want to talk about this one?

>>>Do you really believe the same man rose from the dead after 3 days?<<<

I believe Jesus was a holy man, however I'm not decided on the subject of if he was the son of God as christians believe or if he was a holy prophet like the muslims believe.

I believe God could have raised him though.

>>>Do you really believe someone "parted" an entire sea?<<<

There are sections of the Red sea that are extremley shallow.

>>>Do you really believe that someone took a male and female from each animal and survived for 40 days and nights as the entire earth flooded (a physical impossibility for this to happen over 40 days/nights) and then repopulated the entire earth?<<<


Alot of Genisis is open to interpretation. Is that even possible probably not however it is used to explain that people at the time were wicked and the lord did something about it.

>>>Do you really think the universe was created in 7 days and 7 nights, when scientific proof shows it took billions and billions of years??<<<


what scientific proof? THose scientist never wittnessed this socalled big bang. They have nothing but specualtion. Also no one knows what god's time span was a day and a night could be a year to him

Genisis isn't completley literal.

>>>And then, your belief system demands that you simply believe this on faith!!! That makes it seem so romanticized and spiritual, but it is just another mechanism of the scam!!!<<<

I can feel God, I can feel his love, that is my faith.

>>>It was a fictional book written thousands of years ago, before we had science and a better understanding of the universe. People thought the earth was flat back then, too, and that the sun revolved around the earth!!!<<<

We have very little understanding of the universe scientist aren't even sure how it came into being.

>>>People just need an explanation of life, they can't accept that we still don't know what it is all about. They also want to defy their mortality, so they come up with a concept of "heaven" to deal with their fear of death and mortality.<<<


If we still don't know then how can you rule out the possiblity that we may be right?


>>>I'm sorry to say, but that is how I see it. We are merely advanced mammals still telling each other stories to reassure ourselves that we know what life is about, when in fact we really don't.

Only when we stop embracing mythology and truely pursue science can we advance together<<<

Advanced mamals. So basicaly if one more mamal had died during evolution we would still be burrowing underground?

Everything fell in place to well for this to be all there is. I mean look at all the other species on earth. What are the odds that our brains would become intellegent enough? That we would be capable of building tools?

Its just to ironic.


Do I claim that religion knows everything about God? Hell no. In fact I believe we have fucked up the information God gave us.

Not all of the Bible is inspired by divine powers it is a book however that helps guide or lives so that we live just and peaceful lives.

Alot of the shit in churches is bullshit.

Hell in my belief you would end up in heaven because your not a bad person.

People corrupted what God gave us.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 7:00 pm on July 10, 2002

Quote: from Avamatha on 12:49 am on July 11, 2002
There is an old Commiehouse here in Kemi, and thee are some writings on the outwall. I once read them, this was a part of it: "I, Jesus, were the first socialist!"

..Must be a very old house...

Where is Kemi?


Finland

[RGacky3]

CI, there are just too many "coincidences in the bible for it to be false, perhaps some things are exagurated, but, all the prophecies that came exactly true and the exact time it was phrophecied to come, as well as the fact that the bible says the earth is round, when back then no one knew that. Perhaps all this could just be good guessing, but I doubt it.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 9:18 pm on July 10, 2002
CI, there are just too many "coincidences in the bible for it to be false, perhaps some things are exagurated, but, all the prophecies that came exactly true and the exact time it was phrophecied to come, as well as the fact that the bible says the earth is round, when back then no one knew that. Perhaps all this could just be good guessing, but I doubt it.

What rubbish! What phrophecies came true? Where does it say the earth is round? Astronomers where once condemned by the church by proving that the sun and not the earth was the center of the universe. The Bible may be a great teacher of ethical code. However they are only stories.

[abstractmentality]

i was just thinking the same thing redceltic

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 3:18 am on July 11, 2002
CI, there are just too many "coincidences in the bible for it to be false, perhaps some things are exagurated, but, all the prophecies that came exactly true and the exact time it was phrophecied to come, as well as the fact that the bible says the earth is round, when back then no one knew that. Perhaps all this could just be good guessing, but I doubt it.


What coincendinces, what prophecies? Many things can be interpreted as a bible prophecy. Fires, floods,and famine? They are always happening!

The bible contradicts itself all the time, and science is disproving it all the time.

It is mythology!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 1:38 pm on July 11, 2002

What rubbish! What phrophecies came true? Where does it say the earth is round? Astronomers where once condemned by the church by proving that the sun and not the earth was the center of the universe. The Bible may be a great teacher of ethical code. However they are only stories.


Again, RC, we stumble across common ground, although I didn't appreciate your comment in chit-chat, as commies are not superior to cappies.

I try not to assign "superiority" to people, but instead ideas.

[Moskitto]

OK, OK, I respect your beliefs. Its just that with everything we know now about science and the universe, and knowing that mankind has had thousands of mythologies throughout history, isn't it easy to see that all religions are just modern mythologies?

Science has shown that something cannot be created from nothing. Since God is omnipotent, he is without time therefore he would be the only thing capable of creating the universe.

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs

And the point is What? Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Or the new world and the native americans

St Thomas' grave is rumoured to be in India, However it is not mentioned in the bible. However there is a Christian community which has developed seperately from the rest of the Christian world. Therefore like the Dinosaurs, just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Do you really believe that a man created a feast for thousands out of mid-air with one loaf of bread and 1 fish?

Well, it was an event recorded by 4 Historians and a Pharasi. So something must have happened.

Do you really believe the same man rose from the dead after 3 days?

Well, he was dead as it is recorded by 4 Historians that he certainly was dead (blood seperates when you die.) And if he was indeed a holy man, it is possible for God to have raised him.

Do you really believe someone "parted" an entire sea?

I take it you've never seen the red sea. Also Tides can cause seas to part in a similar way in shallow seas.

Do you really believe that someone took a male and female from each animal and survived for 40 days and nights as the entire earth flooded (a physical impossibility for this to happen over 40 days/nights) and then repopulated the entire earth?

There a 200 seperate accounts from around the world from The Tibetan Mountains, Nookta Indians and The Middle East all recording a giant flood. Also the highest lake in the world Lake Titicaca is salt water, Not to mention erosion evidence in the Black Sea indicating a very large flood. So something big must have happened.

Do you really think the universe was created in 7 days and 7 nights, when scientific proof shows it took billions and billions of years??

How long is a day? How do you know that a day means 24 hours? It could mean 2 billion years.

And then, your belief system demands that you simply believe this on faith!!! That makes it seem so romanticized and spiritual, but it is just another mechanism of the scam!!!

Gee, like most athiests you don't seem to know that believers actually feel god's presence.

It was a fictional book written thousands of years ago, before we had science and a better understanding of the universe. People thought the earth was flat back then, too, and that the sun revolved around the earth!!!

Ancient Greece had religion and they knew that the world was round. Anyway like Lardlad said, Science doesn't explain why.

People just need an explanation of life, they can't accept that we still don't know what it is all about. They also want to defy their mortality, so they come up with a concept of "heaven" to deal with their fear of death and mortality.

You can't prove what happens when you die. Anyway, why are you concerned about others [Supposed] fear of death?

I'm sorry to say, but that is how I see it. We are merely advanced mammals still telling each other stories to reassure ourselves that we know what life is about, when in fact we really don't.

Only when we stop embracing mythology and truely pursue science can we advance together

I'm sad to say that most of your arguements have focused on a Christian viewpoint. You have not tried argueing against any of the other major religions or the concept of god.

If you really want to argue about this, I'll get my brother who's a Philosophy student who has lots of ways of countering every one of your arguements.

[RGacky3]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 6:50 pm on July 11, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 1:38 pm on July 11, 2002

What rubbish! What phrophecies came true? Where does it say the earth is round? Astronomers where once condemned by the church by proving that the sun and not the earth was the center of the universe. The Bible may be a great teacher of ethical code. However they are only stories.


Again, RC, we stumble across common ground, although I didn't appreciate your comment in chit-chat, as commies are not superior to cappies.

I try not to assign "superiority" to people, but instead ideas.


CI when it was prophecised that Cyrus would take over babylon 200 years before Cyrus was born, and they mentioned his name, where he would be from and when he would conquer it. I can list many, many more things but, I don't wan't to turn this into a religouse argument.

[Lardlad95]

ci the sections of the bible that a written by the prophets dont contradit.

however the pnes written by those who werent prophets sometimes do because they weerent inspired by god

you didnt have time to read my last post

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:10 pm on July 11, 2002
OK, OK, I respect your beliefs. Its just that with everything we know now about science and the universe, and knowing that mankind has had thousands of mythologies throughout history, isn't it easy to see that all religions are just modern mythologies?

Science has shown that something cannot be created from nothing. Since God is omnipotent, he is without time therefore he would be the only thing capable of creating the universe.

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs

And the point is What? Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Or the new world and the native americans

St Thomas' grave is rumoured to be in India, However it is not mentioned in the bible. However there is a Christian community which has developed seperately from the rest of the Christian world. Therefore like the Dinosaurs, just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Do you really believe that a man created a feast for thousands out of mid-air with one loaf of bread and 1 fish?

Well, it was an event recorded by 4 Historians and a Pharasi. So something must have happened.

Do you really believe the same man rose from the dead after 3 days?

Well, he was dead as it is recorded by 4 Historians that he certainly was dead (blood seperates when you die.) And if he was indeed a holy man, it is possible for God to have raised him.

Do you really believe someone "parted" an entire sea?

I take it you've never seen the red sea. Also Tides can cause seas to part in a similar way in shallow seas.

Do you really believe that someone took a male and female from each animal and survived for 40 days and nights as the entire earth flooded (a physical impossibility for this to happen over 40 days/nights) and then repopulated the entire earth?

There a 200 seperate accounts from around the world from The Tibetan Mountains, Nookta Indians and The Middle East all recording a giant flood. Also the highest lake in the world Lake Titicaca is salt water, Not to mention erosion evidence in the Black Sea indicating a very large flood. So something big must have happened.

Do you really think the universe was created in 7 days and 7 nights, when scientific proof shows it took billions and billions of years??

How long is a day? How do you know that a day means 24 hours? It could mean 2 billion years.

And then, your belief system demands that you simply believe this on faith!!! That makes it seem so romanticized and spiritual, but it is just another mechanism of the scam!!!

Gee, like most athiests you don't seem to know that believers actually feel god's presence.

It was a fictional book written thousands of years ago, before we had science and a better understanding of the universe. People thought the earth was flat back then, too, and that the sun revolved around the earth!!!

Ancient Greece had religion and they knew that the world was round. Anyway like Lardlad said, Science doesn't explain why.

People just need an explanation of life, they can't accept that we still don't know what it is all about. They also want to defy their mortality, so they come up with a concept of "heaven" to deal with their fear of death and mortality.

You can't prove what happens when you die. Anyway, why are you concerned about others [Supposed] fear of death?

I'm sorry to say, but that is how I see it. We are merely advanced mammals still telling each other stories to reassure ourselves that we know what life is about, when in fact we really don't.

Only when we stop embracing mythology and truely pursue science can we advance together

I'm sad to say that most of your arguements have focused on a Christian viewpoint. You have not tried argueing against any of the other major religions or the concept of god.

If you really want to argue about this, I'll get my brother who's a Philosophy student who has lots of ways of countering every one of your arguements.


no point in saying this to him I replied and he didn't answers.

Besides that, so what if christianity is wrong alot of times. Humans currupt things. Because a couple of priests and revs. are morons doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

Hell we could be completley off on what God wants but does CI even consider that? no he uses current popular religous thoughts to base his skepticism on

[Capitalist Imperial]

[quote]Quote: from Moskitto on 10:10 pm on July 11, 2002
[i]

"Science has shown that something cannot be created from nothing. Since God is omnipotent, he is without time therefore he would be the only thing capable of creating the universe."

That is just jibberish.


"And the point is What? Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean that it doesn't exist."

The point is what? The point is what? One of the most significant periods in earths history and its not mentioned? C'mon,dude. It was a discovery we made relatively recently, and like most recent discoveries, the "great book of wisdom" gives them no mention. Funny

"St Thomas' grave is rumoured to be in India, However it is not mentioned in the bible. However there is a Christian community which has developed seperately from the rest of the Christian world. Therefore like the Dinosaurs, just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist."

Key word: Rumored. Besides, this christian community didn't develop seperate, some traveler arrived and spread the word. Doesen't that make more sense?


"Well, it was an event recorded by 4 Historians and a Pharasi. So something must have happened."

Oh, ok, I guess magic occured back then but somehow we lost it. I can't believe you actually believe that. That is gullible.
Or they were pretty good at slight of hand



"Well, he was dead as it is recorded by 4 Historians that he certainly was dead (blood seperates when you die.) And if he was indeed a holy man, it is possible for God to have raised him."

Holy man or not, when you are dead, you are dead, jeeza, again you blindlt believe this, thoufg you would never except it happeneing today. Kinda funny this happened 2000 years ago so it impossible to prove or disprove. And who are these "historians" can you vouch for their legitimacy?


"I take it you've never seen the red sea. Also Tides can cause seas to part in a similar way in shallow seas."

No, I haven't,that doesn't matter, the bible is suggesting a human used his own power to do it. It is just another mythological story, dude.


"There a 200 seperate accounts from around the world from The Tibetan Mountains, Nookta Indians and The Middle East all recording a giant flood. Also the highest lake in the world Lake Titicaca is salt water, Not to mention erosion evidence in the Black Sea indicating a very large flood. So something big must have happened."

Yeah, ok, so 2 of each animal repopulated the entire earth? What did they eat? Everything would have been dead. Again,man, I can't believe this!!


"How long is a day? How do you know that a day means 24 hours? It could mean 2 billion years."

Oh yeah, you have me there. LOL, LOL Again,one of christianity's built-in excuses. That is again jibberish


"Gee, like most athiests you don't seem to know that believers actually feel god's presence."

Actually, those are called endorphins, brain chemicals, they can be very powerful and when someone really wants to believe they are external, thats what they will think.. Scientists have shown significantly increased endorphin concurrent with subject "feeling god"


"Ancient Greece had religion and they knew that the world was round. Anyway like Lardlad said, Science doesn't explain why."

Thats what is good about science,it doesn't claim to know "why" like religion does. Its very purpose dictates that we still know little. It doesn't tell people how to live their lives based on a 200 year old fictional book. It actually tests things, breaks them down. "shows" you why, doesn't just tell you and insist you believe Science has done more for man in the last 100 years than religion has in 10,000 years.




"You can't prove what happens when you die. Anyway, why are you concerned about others [Supposed] fear of death?"

Neither can you, but most likely it was the same thing before you were born: nothing and if you don't understand that most humans fear mortality, then I don't know what to tell you.



"I'm sad to say that most of your arguements have focused on a Christian viewpoint. You have not tried argueing against any of the other major religions or the concept of god."

Christianity is a mere example, I feel the same about all religions

"If you really want to argue about this, I'll get my brother who's a Philosophy student who has lots of ways of countering every one of your arguements."


I had a few philosophy courses too, and I welcome his arguements. The fact is, you, he, or anyone else is unable to prove 1 iota of it. Thats ok, it seems more spiritual and romaticized when you must talke it on faith and not quaestion it, another built in brainwashing technique.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 11:56 pm on July 11, 2002
[quote]

no point in saying this to him I replied and he didn't answers.

Besides that, so what if christianity is wrong alot of times. Humans currupt things. Because a couple of priests and revs. are morons doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

Hell we could be completley off on what God wants but does CI even consider that? no he uses current popular religous thoughts to base his skepticism on


I answered most of your questiond in my reply to moskitto

People just need a god because they need to think that their life has meaning, they can't accept that this all may just be a quick trip and then we fade to nothingness.

[Field Marshal]

Now I furthermore understand CI's Capitalist philosophy. Because life is a quick trip and then we fade, why not make the best of it and make as much money as you can and have all the fun you can and embrace capitalism?

I see a good discussion topic here: Marx was against religion, but so is Capitalist Imperial, does religion play that big of a role in the economic system?

But that's off topic, here's what I wanted to say: Everyone should go download a song...............


Reagan Youth - Jesus was a communist

that's all I have to say about that.

[Avamatha]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:00 am on July 11, 2002

Quote: from Avamatha on 12:49 am on July 11, 2002
There is an old Commiehouse here in Kemi, and thee are some writings on the outwall. I once read them, this was a part of it: "I, Jesus, were the first socialist!"

..Must be a very old house...

Where is Kemi?


Oh, sorry... :)
Kemi is in Northern Finland

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Field Marshal on 12:53 am on July 12, 2002

I see a good discussion topic here: Marx was against religion, but so is Capitalist Imperial, does religion play that big of a role in the economic system?

But that's off topic, here's what I wanted to say: Everyone should go download a song...............


Reagan Youth - Jesus was a communist

that's all I have to say about that.

The religion/economics query is actually a very good question.

As for the song, funny, but no thanks.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:48 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 11:56 pm on July 11, 2002
[quote]

no point in saying this to him I replied and he didn't answers.

Besides that, so what if christianity is wrong alot of times. Humans currupt things. Because a couple of priests and revs. are morons doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

Hell we could be completley off on what God wants but does CI even consider that? no he uses current popular religous thoughts to base his skepticism on


I answered most of your questiond in my reply to moskitto

People just need a god because they need to think that their life has meaning, they can't accept that this all may just be a quick trip and then we fade to nothingness.



no you replied to his answers my answers werent the same as his.

also,

>>>"Science has shown that something cannot be created from nothing. Since God is omnipotent, he is without time therefore he would be the only thing capable of creating the universe."

That is just jibberish.<<<


were did the universe come from then

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Avamatha on 1:05 am on July 12, 2002


Oh, sorry... :)
Kemi is in Northern Finland


Ahhh... tango, anyone?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:48 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 11:56 pm on July 11, 2002
[quote]

no point in saying this to him I replied and he didn't answers.

Besides that, so what if christianity is wrong alot of times. Humans currupt things. Because a couple of priests and revs. are morons doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

Hell we could be completley off on what God wants but does CI even consider that? no he uses current popular religous thoughts to base his skepticism on


I answered most of your questiond in my reply to moskitto

People just need a god because they need to think that their life has meaning, they can't accept that this all may just be a quick trip and then we fade to nothingness.



then why the fuck do we need science or knowledge who cares what we know we wont need it after we die any way.

Every accomplishment mankind has made is worthless in the long run anyway right?

You can do what ever the hell what you want because it wont matter when your dead anyway.

if thats your belief on life then why the fuck are you a capitalist? Who cares about all the money you accumulate it wont matter when yourdead right?

Your life may be worthless but mine isn't

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 1:07 am on July 12, 2002

were did the universe come from then


That is just it, my friend, that is just my point.

We still don't know, and science acknowledges this. We have had written history for about 10,000 years, and good science for about 200 years, not even a speck in the universe's time line. How arrogant to think that we somehow know the meaning of life and the beginnings of the universe.

[Field Marshal]

Just so most of you don't think that I agree with CI, I don't. I believe that everyone should have a happy life (how idealistic of me) and that equal opportunity should become reality. I'd feel bad if I knew that I'm at the top and they can not be with me. I feel so bad that I would go down to be with them to be their equal (I'm speaking ecnomics here, nothing more).

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:18 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 1:07 am on July 12, 2002

were did the universe come from then


That is just it, my friend, that is just my point.

We still don't know, and science acknowledges this. We have had written history for about 10,000 years, and good science for about 200 years, not even a speck in the universe's time line. How arrogant to think that we somehow know the meaning of life and the beginnings of the universe.


but you seem to rule out the possibility of God.

you can't rule out every possiblity until you know the truth.

Until we have defenitive proof of how the universe came to be you can't say that anything is impossible

I mean think the current belief is flawed because an explosion needs to be started it can't happen spontaniously from nothing.

You can't say God's existence is defenitive.

Also why do you use the bible to disprove God? who said that the book is everything about God and the Universe?

I keep an open mind about religion instead of being tied down to a single one.

You on the other hand assume that just because I believe in God and believe Jesus existed that I agree totally with the bible

[Capitalist Imperial]

OK, thats a good point. I won't call it god, but "The beginning of time".

I don't know why you and field marshall think that I believe life should be meaningless. I don't, I consider myself extremely lucky for being able to experience it. We can always do things that will immortilize us in the memories of others, and we can have fun while we are here.

Our accomplishments are far from meaningless, they add to the summation of mankinds progress throughout existence.

And I still have a good ethical code and moral standard, I still treat others as I want to be treated. I don't have to be religious to feel this way.

[rebel with a cause]

All I know is, he sure as hell wasn't a capitalist, I think it's absolutely hilarious, that many capitalists (especially those "hardcore" Christian Conservatives of Bush, Ashcroft, and the like) live only to serve money, yet they claim membership to this religion and so devout in its practices, that the central teacher of this religion Jesus, has said,

"You cannot serve both God and money."

"It is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to get into heaven."

peace out

[Lardlad95]

Thats all I needed to hear.

No one said you had to have religous beliefs for moral codes.

As long as you realize that you must repect life and the lives of others.

But think were did moral convictions originate from? Religous beliefs.

Also when people immortalize you they usualy get your meaning wrong so make sure when you do its for something that is really clear cut.....like Hitler in a bad way or MArtin Luther king Jr. in a good way

[Capitalist Imperial]

Did morals and ethics arise from religious beliefs? Or did religion arise from man's need to feel moral?

The great greek philosophers, pioneers of western thought, discussed morals and ethics often, but often kept them seprate from their mythology.

[Lardlad95]

good point however at the basis they have gone hand in had,However people usually have ended up corrupting and going against what they teach.

It is possible religion was needed to justify morals.

Or God creating the universe could be true.

I don't think its so much the practice of religion thats important as much as the practicing of its message.

Like would God accept and evil christain into heaven or a just and good atheist?

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:50 pm on July 11, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 1:38 pm on July 11, 2002

What rubbish! What phrophecies came true? Where does it say the earth is round? Astronomers where once condemned by the church by proving that the sun and not the earth was the center of the universe. The Bible may be a great teacher of ethical code. However they are only stories.


Again, RC, we stumble across common ground, although I didn't appreciate your comment in chit-chat, as commies are not superior to cappies.

I try not to assign "superiority" to people, but instead ideas.


That was a joke. I thought it was obvious.

[abstractmentality]

a theist is one with belief. an atheist is one without a belief. i think that the one with a belief must always prove to the one without belief in his belief. if i believe that my lamp can light the world, and you do not believe, i must prove to you that it can. i, in the religious sense, am the one without belief.

i think that as long as you live your life with respect for life and live "morally," then religious affiliation should not matter.

here is something that i read in a book a while back. what im writing is from memory, so please forgive if i get something a little wrong (relates to christianity):
god knows all, past present and future, correct? and according to somebody in the bible (i believe it was paul or somebody with a P, lol), god makes people like pottery, all for a specific purpose, some for small things, and others for large things. well, if s/he/it makes all people for a specific reason, and also knows everything past present and future, then god created, say, hitler knowing what he was going to do, and by all means, created him to perform gods plan.

please, someone refute this, because when i read it, i wasnt sure it was true or not. although i am an atheist, this is something that has been bugging me for quite sometime.

[Stormin Norman]

Soren Kierkegard believed that there was no possible way for man, whose knowledge and reasoning are finite, to ojectively prove the existence of God. To him objective theories on philosophic matters were forgetting that everyone’s philosophy depends on their own subjective views of the world. This helped when Kierkegard founded his own nonevidentialist arguement for the existence of God. He believed when there was a conflict between reason and faith, faith should take priority, since truth was respective to whoever held the view. A view held to and believed by the viewer was true in that person’s mind, thus giving the thought a certain amount of truth. Reason, Kiekegard states, has no way of proving whether God is true or not, therefore faith should be applied to settle the matter in a person’s mind once and for all. This process should be
done on and individual basis subject to ones own reason. In the end their is no way of providing empirical proof of God’s existence, furthermore Kierkegard also believes that there can only be believers and nonbelievers in the matter of Christian faith. There is no way to ride the fence and wait for material evidence. You either have faith or you don’t.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 11:08 pm on July 12, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

The greatest quality that sets us humans apart from the animal kingdom is our ability to reason, comprehend, analyze and shape matter to meet our goals. With this comes nagging questions about the world we live in and the universe as a whole. No question is more controversial and profound as the question of whether God exist.
Some skeptics say that a scientific age has made the need for God obsolete. They argue that when man emerged as a thinking being and could contemplate his eventual demise his brain developed a survival mechanism to help him deal with the implications of his death. Afterlife, religion and God are all parts of this mechanism that enables people to deal with the possibility that when he dies he might cease to exist. Proponents of this view claim that science has proven God is simply a function of our own brains. One’s ability to believe in God depends on how developed this brain state is due to genetics. One’s need and ability to believe can be compared to the musical aptitude or mathematical ability.(Mathew Alper, "The God Part of the Brain")
Other people refuse to believe in science because they are afraid that science will kill their God. They neglect to investigate the mysteries of the universe through empirical methods and would rather take God’s existence on blind faith. The world is only 4500 years old, the bible is to be taken literally and the reason people die horrible deaths is because they failed to follow the word of God.
Both of these two world views are absurd. Our science isn’t so advanced that we our masters of the universe and can rule out the possibility of an omnipotent mastermind behind the scenes. We should not bury our heads in the sand either and tell God how he created the universe, like what many so-called creationist would do. Instead I think we should look at the complexities of the world around us to search for the unanswered question. Chaos is abound throughout the universe, yet their seems to be some ordered structure within it. Pick a field of scientific study that will not produce amazing discoveries of an impossible nature. Bugs that have developed flourence, microorganisms that engage in chemical warfare for their survival, evidence that the universe continues to expand, DNA that carries the blueprints of life and continues to improve the fate of its creations. What are the chances of any of these things happening in such a disordered realm? Not very likely. It is as if someone spun it into motion in order to produce specific results.
The idea of a creator is natural for a species who thrives on new discoveries. If we had the capacity to create such an complex machine wouldn’t we take advantage for the sake of curiousity? Take good old H2O, something we take for granted, yet its properties are the basis for life on this planet. Go out into the desert and witness the type of life that has evolved in that harsh environment, where water is scarce. Better yet, visit the oceans hydrothermal vents that spew out hydrogen sulfide a deadly chemical to most animals , but somehow their are organisms that thrive in its poison. Life, in and of itself, is the greatest miracle that one can witness. I can’t say for certain whether God exists but if so what an engineering feat he has accomplished.
It is amazing how men of faith can arbitrarily destroy one the greatest sites imaginable. How many deaths can be attributed to religion. Christian doctorine alone claims that the world is ours to dominate. Compare this wordview to that of the indiginous peoples of America and Australia who appear to be more spiritual and might have an understanding greater than many who have lived.

[Stormin Norman]

The three major positions for evidentialists' claims that God exists

Cosmological Argument: This position uses universal causation to explain how all actions within the universe are the result of prior causes. The principle of sufficient reason states that everything in the universe has a reason that explains its existence and the properties of the object. Proponents for this world view believe man as well as the rest of the universe are contingent beings whose existence depends on God. God would be classified as a necessary being whose reason for existence is dependent on itself. In other words the principle of sufficient reasoning and universal causation only applies to the discernible matter within the universe and doesn’t apply to God. This is the case because all other elements of there argument generates a chicken and the egg scenario, which causes a giant ripple in their theory. If these principles applied to God, their view would fail to answer the original question and would create new problems to ponder. ‘Who created God and are they more perfect than our God?’ ‘Is our God like an assistant manager who was handed his responsibilities from a higher God?’ Therefore, God’s existence must be taken on faith.

The Design Theory: To me the most interesting and scientific of the three arguments. This teleological argument uses observations to support their claim that a God may exist. Proponents use the grandeur of the universe and data that has been collected to rationalize the existence of God. Many of the cases they site; DNA structure, the apparent organization of chaotic matter (fractals), mathematics as a universal language, complex organisms that have the ability to adapt and eventually evolve, all point to a mastermind with immense knowledge who may have crafted the whole arrangement. The fact that there is any arrangement at all, they say points to the intelligence behind the enigma we call the universe. Often design theorists use human design as an analogy to the craftiness of natural design. I think human accomplishment, although great, pales in comparison. When Darwin created his ‘Origin of Species’ many people felt threatened by his theory, which also has its holes. When geological data failed to obtain the fossil records that supported Darwin’s intermediate species a new brand of natural selection was theorized, called punctuated equilibrium. This view states that occasionally their are massive die offs, that enable life to reorganize at quick rates, such that intermediate species fail to materialize, because adaptation occurs so quickly. These adaptations are incorporated into the gene sequence and handed to the next generation. The evidence to support this idea is still in the making. I think both design theory and evolution are plausible with a solid foot in the sciences, neither one necessarily negating the other.

The Ontological View: This is the weakest of the three arguments. It suggests that the mere fact that man can dream up the existence of God proves his existence. It is not surprising that such horrible reasoning dominated a time of intellectual suppression. The church was the ultimate ruler during the Dark Ages and often used religion as a tool of oppression. Never the less, scientists were virtually non existent and healthy argument against such a claim would have been punished as heresy. St. Anselm claimed that his ability to idealize such a perfect being as God created a paradox since the idea of such was less than the reality. The idea proved that God exists since, according to Anselm, it was logically impossible for God not to exist. Surprisingly this reasoning has survived into an industrial era. In many conversations I’ve had about religion and God a similar argument is stated. ‘How do you know that God exists?’ I ask. ‘I feel that he does,’ is usually the reply. That is when I end the discussion since there is no way to argue with such blind faith. I’d rather talk to someone of the design theory mentality, because at least they are thinking of the implications of what they claim to be true.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 6:24 am on July 12, 2002
a theist is one with belief. an atheist is one without a belief. i think that the one with a belief must always prove to the one without belief in his belief. if i believe that my lamp can light the world, and you do not believe, i must prove to you that it can. i, in the religious sense, am the one without belief.

i think that as long as you live your life with respect for life and live "morally," then religious affiliation should not matter.

here is something that i read in a book a while back. what im writing is from memory, so please forgive if i get something a little wrong (relates to christianity):
god knows all, past present and future, correct? and according to somebody in the bible (i believe it was paul or somebody with a P, lol), god makes people like pottery, all for a specific purpose, some for small things, and others for large things. well, if s/he/it makes all people for a specific reason, and also knows everything past present and future, then god created, say, hitler knowing what he was going to do, and by all means, created him to perform gods plan.

please, someone refute this, because when i read it, i wasnt sure it was true or not. although i am an atheist, this is something that has been bugging me for quite sometime.



God knows all that we are. he does not however create us one by one like he did with Adam/eve.

he knows how we will be and what will happen to us.

the belief that god controls everything and makes everything happen s totally false.

he gave us free will. Hitler abused that gift and caused mass genocide.

just like all those morons who took part in the slave trade caused another genocide.

All the bad things have come from man's own hands not God's.

by the way I see you have the Dialated people's symbol for your Icon.

You listen to any other rap, like the roots or mos def? or Talib Kweli?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Good thoughts, Normin

Lardlad, I think you are correct about christianity saying that god gives men free will, so according to that belief system choices after life are man's responsibility

[Lardlad95]

exactley. Believe what you wish. God gave you that choice you don't have to believe that theres a heaven or hell.

You can believe that after death we return as giant chickens living under the surface of mars

[abstractmentality]

"he knows how we will be and what will happen to us." lardlad

we may have free will, but if he knows what will happen to us, then doesnt he already know what we will do with our free will?

thank you stormin norman for those thoughts, good stuff. which books did you get that information from, other than the god part of the brain which you have already mentioned? curious as you seem to be knowledgable in this area.

lardlad95,
yes, i listen to other hip-hop. in fact, im going to see Jurassic 5, the roots, outkast, and lauryn hill on the 19th of this month, and on the 30th im going to see DJ Quik. i listen to plenty of hip-hop, mos def, talib kweli, hierglyphics (which was my old avatar), visionaries, blackalicious, etc.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 5:59 pm on July 12, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 5:58 pm on July 12, 2002


we may have free will, but if he knows what will happen to us, then doesnt he already know what we will do with our free will?



Hmmmm... hes got a point.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 5:58 pm on July 12, 2002
"he knows how we will be and what will happen to us." lardlad

we may have free will, but if he knows what will happen to us, then doesnt he already know what we will do with our free will?

thank you stormin norman for those thoughts, good stuff. which books did you get that information from, other than the god part of the brain which you have already mentioned? curious as you seem to be knowledgable in this area.

lardlad95,
yes, i listen to other hip-hop. in fact, im going to see Jurassic 5, the roots, outkast, and lauryn hill on the 19th of this month, and on the 30th im going to see DJ Quik. i listen to plenty of hip-hop, mos def, talib kweli, hierglyphics (which was my old avatar), visionaries, blackalicious, etc.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 5:59 pm on July 12, 2002)


yes he des know. however if he interfered e wouldn't have given us free will now would he?


>>>yes, i listen to other hip-hop. in fact, im going to see Jurassic 5, the roots, outkast, and lauryn hill on the 19th of this month, and on the 30th im going to see DJ Quik. i listen to plenty of hip-hop, mos def, talib kweli, hierglyphics (which was my old avatar), visionaries, blackalicious, etc.<<<


damn I was gonna go see the roots with my brother but we moved so now I can't. Instead I had to settle for buying their live cd.

So now I just have to download music and shit like that.

Maybe they'll be in Nashville one day, who knnows.

You ever go to okayplayer.com

[abstractmentality]

im not saying that he must interfer, im just saying that if god knows the decisions that we are going to make with our free will, then he knows what all of us are going to do. and if he knows what all of us are going to do before we do it (does not call for interference on gods part), then he makes all of us with knowledge of what all of us are going to do with our lives.

damn I was gonna go see the roots with my brother but we moved so now I can't. Instead I had to settle for buying their live cd.
So now I just have to download music and shit like that.
Maybe they'll be in Nashville one day, who knnows. You ever go to okayplayer.com

i visit okayplayer every now and then. thats the way i found out about a dilated peoples free show last year (which was a great show, i must add). you should check out blackalicious and the visionaries, both great groups (and the visionaries perform great as well). visionaries may be a little hard to find, as the only store that carries them down here is not a commercial store such as wherehouse or sam goody. if you want though, i can probably upload a few of their songs for you.

[Lardlad95]

remember I said God doesn't create us himself,e doesn't need to. But yeah he knows what we are going to do.


I got some blackalicious. I can try and find visionaries. Not sure if I can

[Stormin Norman]

Abstract Mentality,

Philosophy 101.

[Moskitto]

"he knows how we will be and what will happen to us." lardlad

we may have free will, but if he knows what will happen to us, then doesnt he already know what we will do with our free will?

This is precisely why I believe in Armenian predestination as it is not predestination at all.

Basically, God has the ability to know because he is omniscient. However, because he is omnipotent, he can choose not to know, thereby giving us free will.

[Stormin Norman]

I see that many of you are having problems with the popular notion that god is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. Here are a few more questions to ponder. If god is all knowing he must know everything that occurs in the universe; past, present, and future. If god is all good, how can he allow for disease, natural destruction, and the senseless violence man commits against one another? If he is all powerful, why does he not stop this sort of chaos and make everyone do good. These ideas can only lead somebody to believe that one of the three presumptions about god must be incorrect. Maybe he is not omnipotent, omniscient, or all good. Perhaps he is a scientist who spun a reaction into progress and is studying the results to arrive at a conclusion. Perhaps our belief in god is unwarranted and the universe exists independent of such a being. Whatever the answer the previous questions make the strongest case for atheism. How would you believers answer such questions? Why does god allow for natural evil to exist?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 1:02 am on July 15, 2002)

[Moskitto]

If god is all knowing he must know everything that occurs in the universe; past, present, and future.

Armenian Predestination as I have explained earlier.


If god is all good, how can he allow for disease, natural destruction, and the senseless violence man commits against one another

Free choice.


If he is all powerful, why does he not stop this sort of chaos and make everyone do good.

That would end the whole point of free choice, and faith, and love.

[Stormin Norman]

Could you explain Armenian Predestination to me?

By giving people the free choice to do harm unto one another doesn't that necessarily negate the idea that he is all good? By sitting back and watching when he has the power to stop this doesn't he facilitate the crime? How does god compensate for this inconsistency? What is the purpose of free choice?

Do you believe in an interventionist god?

[Moskitto]

Could you explain Armenian Predestination to me?

Armenian Predestination is the idea that while god is all knowing, because he is all powerful he is able to choose not to know about the future.

By giving people the free choice to do harm unto one another doesn't that necessarily negate the idea that he is all good? By sitting back and watching when he has the power to stop this doesn't he facilitate the crime? How does god compensate for this inconsistency? What is the purpose of free choice?

Because god is good he has realised that the best thing for us is to be free. This free choice allows us to love him which is the thing that god wants the most. While god doesn't like us doing evil things he'd much rather be happier with us being free than us being not free as we are able to love him. "Those who sacrifice a little freedom for a little order, get neither and deserve neither."

An easier awnser to justify for this question is the Islamic stance which is that life is a test of faith and if we still believe we pass and if we don't we fail. However I do not believe this.

Do you believe in an interventionist god?

No I do not.

[Stormin Norman]

Sorry I made you repeat yourself about armenian predestination. So you are saying that god is not azll knowing. He used his power the relegate that ability. Sounds like a cop out explanation, but an interesting one at that. Ockam's razor, right.

The other explanation you give is not solely an Islamic position, as many Christians use that line too.

Overall, good answers.

[Moskitto]

The last person i tried that awnser on started agressively insulting me and got everyone else on the forum to do the same for about 9 hours before repeating his previous statement.

It truely was a very sad BB though, every topic was about praising the game (the game sucked.) Or debates about shit stuff which every topic was like.

---
Is Cloning wrong, I think it is.
---
Cloning is bad.
---
I agree.
---
Cloning is wrong.

[abstractmentality]

SN, have you read Atheism: The Case Against God by George Smith? I have not read the entire thing, but some of the parts that i have read contain similar arguements as your against moskitto. i know that book is where im getting most of my info from. if you havent read it, pick it up, i think you will like.

[Moskitto]

There's lots of books on this subject. Annother is The God Experiment: Can Science Prove the Existence of God? (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587680076/qid=1026680877/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/002-6598223-4734435) Which is written by Russell Standard who lives in my home town.

The problem with these books is, most people who read them allready agree with the author and simply read them to reinforce their views. And even the best are not compelling enough to change many peoples views. I don't think you can prove or disprove the existence of god, or if you can, you've got way to much time on your hands.

The exception is certain Eastern religions where "god" is not a god in the western sense, but is something very individual to each person. Thus making him real, but not real, if you understand?

(Edited by Moskitto at 10:22 pm on July 14, 2002)

[Anonymous]

wel about god and religion (i have alredy posted a reply like this one) all I have to say is:

Some religions (expecialy christianism) are based in the submission of mankind in benefit of the divine,if god is all, the real world and men are nothing; if god is truth, justice, good, beautiful, life, men are lie, injustice, evil, uglyness and death; If God is the Lord then Men is the Slave, incapable of finding by himself the truth, the justice, the eternel life, he can only find all this by submission before the divine. and soo who ever claims to be the son (messias profet etc) of Divine has absolute power! All men must give absolut obedience because against the divine reason there is no human reason, and against God justice there is no real justice.

If there is a God then Men is slave, But men is free then there is no God!

So why keep this Cycle of Human submission? Why insinsting in human inferiority? Human is alredy inferiour to nature! Isnt that enough?

[Anonymous]

Wait a sec, didnt Jesus allow Mary Magdelin to wash his feet, hence showing his distaste of a class system becuase she was a prostitute? In that society a prostitute was a lower class and not fit to wash the feet of the supposed Messiah.

[abstractmentality]

moskitto:
when i started reading it, i was, as you say, already pretty much set in my beliefs. but that was mostly because i couldnt get any answers from friends that satisfied me. i knew what i didnt believe in, and was trying to get some more info about it. just prior to starting my book though, i read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity, which was hailed by so many of my friends, as well as an english teacher. that book did nothing, so i went on. but, you have opened up some thought in me once again, and i thank you. not sure if what you said will change my mind on anything, but what the heck. im going to a friends SDA church tonight to see how that is. any books you can recomend on either side of the debate beyond the one you have already mentioned?

[Anonymous]

Funky Monk: Jesus had relactions with mary! in the bibla comes in some part that jesus kissed often mary in the mouth and one day one of the apostols asked him: "Why do you love Mary more than us? jesus- Why dont I love you so much as u love mary?" Though the ceromony of washing the feet of men is performed when the men is dying (or alredy dead) and whants to face death washed, well mary knew that jesus was going to die so she washed his feet, if you notice in the bible says that the apos. gone mad with Mary because of that but jesus didnt minded!

[Moskitto]

Books about belief in God

Here I am - Russell Standard
Is God past his sell by date?
The Existance of God - Richard. Swinburne
Belief in God in an Age of Science - John C. Polkinghorne
God and Other Minds - Alvin Plantinga

Books about Atheism

Why I am not a Christian
Why I am not a Muslim
Critiques of God - Peter A. Angeles
Atheism: The Case Against God - George H. Smith
Atheism: A Philosophical Justification - Michael Martin Why Atheism? - George H. Smith