Revolution: possible/impossible.....?

[American Kid]

Hello everyone. Kid here.

If you're not familiar, I'm a 23 year old el hombre de americano who works a shitty nine to five while chipping away at a writing career. I-

(Kid, shut the fuck up!)

No YOU shut the fuck up!

(get on with it; who cares your fucking life story...jesus.)

Okay. Here's my question of the day: In order for your beliefs (speaking to the socialists and the communists here) to truly take shape, obviously some major reforms need to take place--- in whatever country you're dealing with. Let's say, USA.

(boo, fuck the usa, fuck Bush, fuck usa, fuck cheez wiz)

Lemme finish. I don't want to be the big, evil, unthoughtful adult who coldly informs the little 4 year old that there really isn't a Santa Claus.....................but your shit ain't ever happening here. We love our cell phones and daytime talk shows and Jesus too much. It's impressive the sort of groundswell your ideas can create-

(don't fuckin' patronize us!)

I'm not. I'm serious. I've stated before here my admiration for your ideals. They're good ones and your convictions are true. But doesn't it all seem futile? Do you really think the USA will ever be a communist state? Or even socialist? There's a girl who here who was arguing with one of us fuckin' scumbag cappies, I think it was CI, and I'm sorry I can't remember her screen name, either. But she's Canadian and is a law student and their exchange was one of the most interesting and thought-provoking I've read since coming here. She spoke of making reforms through her firm, working with convicts she felt they were being extorted by the system AFTER their shoplifting convictions, and so on. I'm sorry I don't remember more. But she's pretty bright. And works in law, which I understand in many cases is one of the next steps below politics. And I wonder, what the hell is she working so hard for? Or towards? What are the realistic objectives and goals you guys set for yourselves as socialists and/or communists, considering how drastic and unpopular they seem? Realistically, where do you think the revolution is going to stop next? You feel and think you're doing the right thing-for everybody-but you do realize you're thoughts and ideas scare the living shit out of the rest of us? You think my dad's gonna be happy the day representatives from the new American communist regime come to his house and tell him we have to give up our land? That HIS dad worked for? That religion is no longer permitted to be a public affair, and is to be kept in the privacy of our homes?

And do you think your ideaologies are really going to be the kiss of death for economic class distinctions? Personally, I think it's in our nature to distinguish and discriminate each other- based any little stupid thing, like money. How we look. The way we talk. Etc........You wipe the slate clean and have everyone start over again from page one, we'll still find someway to leave SOMEONE out of sitting at the cool kids' table..............

And there's no Easter bunny and Ernie gave Bert AIDS.

-Kid

(you're so fucking stoopid.noboby cares. you always ask these stoopid questions cappie. we don't care about your personal problems.you just wanna instigate people.you're so stoopid.you never have anything to say. you're lucky to be an american. you're a slave. you smell like dog piss. you this. you that.......)

-and don't you DARE quote that...............I'm on to you....

(Edited by American Kid at 4:14 am on July 7, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

I belive that if a revolution ever did arise I would take part. I will even try to help start one however it can't be halfbaked.

When people realize how screwed they are getting...then I'll be there until the people become unsatisfied there is nothing more I can do

[RedCeltic]

Firstly: the woman in Canada your thinking of is my good friend "Nickadermus" .

Some people in the US may seem to think that a revolution could be successful in the US, however I'm one who would rather focus on reality.

For me, I see the United States moving farther and farther to the right and it is quite a frightening thought. I believe in building a stronger representation among the far left which also means support for the groups like the Greens, ( who have some democratic socialists) as well as other democratic socialist parties and activist organizations.

Getting more people to question right wing politics while supporting progressive reforms is the only true way one can make a difference.

[maria11r]

well... i know that a revolution will not take place in the U$, not in this decade.. probably not in this century... but i have hope... that one day.. it will. but for that day... i think that more than 75% of the world must have already gone through a revolution... or at least, there must have been another great depression, b/c in those days, many americans decided to join the communist party, some of them even went to the USSR. or when the world has collapsed in the midst of radiation.... then the land that used to be called U$A will now be the grounds for a socialist government.... oh boy, that will be the day.

[Brian]

Never! Not in this lifetime,some day maybe.

[Stormin Norman]

American Kid,

I like you. You ask the tough questions and are genuinely interested in learning. Like me, you are a gadfly buzzing around the heads of others forcing them to think about their positions. As one of the rare truth seekers of the world, you have a tough road ahead of you. So do I. Life for us requires cutting through the mounds of nonsense that exist. However, I notice that you are more tactful in your approach.
What do you mean will socialism ever exist in this country? It already does. It began with the progressive movement, heightened during the Great Depression, and continued through Johnson's Great Society. The programs that were created are now seen as indispensable, and politicians as a way to generate votes are currently using many more of them. An excellent example includes the prescription drug plan in the works today. What about the progressive income tax code existing today, or the continued interruption by the government in the market mechanism? Socialist thinking is more prevalent now, than it ever was. Society seems to be willing to concede more of its fundamental rights as a trade off for the ease of social programs. Look at the polls, Americans seem willing to relinquish their freedom for security. This is a natural cycle that I will discuss in another post sometime. Fact remains; democratic socialism is a bigger threat to our way of life than Al Quida. We, the people, seem to despise our freedoms and are willing to abandon the original framework set forth by the founders of our country. Socialists do not need a violent revolution. They have been creeping their agendas into the political arena with the consent of the majority. The general public has taken the bait, as we have begun our slow descent down the dark path toward tyranny. The only revolution that will occur in America is on the day that people wake up and realize the damage done by the slow reworking of the political system, brought by liberals. Hopefully, it won't be too late by that time.

[Ymir]

A revolution does not have to be fast. Slowly someone could change the system. All things must live and then must die. Eventually the virus of some design will decay the current U.S. system.

[IzmSchism]

All I know is the revolution will not be televised, you hear me, it won't be on no friends episode, no commercial, no nothing, the revolution will exist in the minds and hearts of all of those who are responsible for their fellow brother and sister.

If you see the government as the enemy you are really on the wrong side to begin any kind of counter-measures against them, it is too unequal.

The only revolution I see happening in North America, is the one where people start to wake up and figure things out for themselves. By this I mean people shouldn't take what their local representative says for face alue, or their president or the dude in the commercial....It will happen when people are ready to come together and turn this monster into what it was originally intended for....

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 11:11 pm on July 6, 2002
(boo, fuck the usa, fuck Bush, fuck usa, fuck cheez wiz)

Lemme finish.[hr]It would be much easier to finish what you're saying if you didn't interrupt yourself.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 11:11 pm on July 6, 2002
We love our cell phones and daytime talk shows and Jesus too much.[hr]If you look at the other current threads, you'll see that the Swedish government (which is closest to the social democratic system I'd like) gives cell phones to all of its citizens. So if I were in charge, there would be more cell phones out there. As for daytime talk shows, I'd really like to know how many Welfare mothers enjoy them. (I guess when you said "we", you were referring to rich Americans who don't have jobs.) Also, many pre-Marx socialists were Christians. And the Pope went to Cuba, right? [hr]Quote: from American Kid on 11:11 pm on July 6, 2002
But doesn't it all seem futile? Do you really think the USA will ever be a communist state? Or even socialist?[hr]I don't think so. And that's not what I'm working for, because it's damn near impossible. What I'm working for is a capitalist state that treats the poor as fairly as possible. I teach poor kids for a living, etc. And I never pretend that I'm liberating the working class, or, for that matter, liberating anybody. Hardly anyone ever does that, and the people who do are always much smarter than I seem to be. What I'm trying to do, and I've got a great chance of being successful at it, is help poor kids learn. Their lives will be enhanced by this no matter what, and perhaps what I teach them will help them get better jobs. They might even be able to raise their children in neighborhoods with no drive-by shootings! I'm not aiming for the stars. Because you know what? I really don't think you'd be where you are right now if you had awful teachers, and if I had a student who was as endearingly odd and inquisitive as you are I'd be damn proud of myself.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 11:11 pm on July 6, 2002
And there's no Easter bunny and Ernie gave Bert AIDS.[hr]OOOHHHHHH NNNOOOOOO!!!!!! I thought the Easter bunny gave Bert AIDS! But now you're telling me that the Easter bunny doesn't exist. Just one question, Kid: If the Easter bunny didn't give Big Bird AIDS, then who did?[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 11:11 pm on July 6, 2002
(you're so fucking stoopid.noboby cares. you always ask these stoopid questions cappie. we don't care about your personal problems.you just wanna instigate people.you're so stoopid.you never have anything to say. you're lucky to be an american. you're a slave. you smell like dog piss. you this. you that.......)[hr]Your breath stinks, too.

Lindsay

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 6:52 pm on July 7, 2002
[What I'm working for is a capitalist state that treats the poor as fairly as possible.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

[American Kid]

.................................................W ell, well, well......................"Lindsay", huh?........................................please d to make your acquaitance..............................have you noticed my second star........................?

:)

.............I need to get kicked out of here............:)

Here we go:

A ton of welfare mothers watch daytime talk shows. Mine being one of them.

In normal converstational engagements, it is very common, if not an integral aspect, that one conversationalists shall interject, if not cut off completely, his adjecent debater, and his argument, in order to tactifully introduce into the discussion, an argument of his own, which besides being a disproving factor, often results in the massive loss of personal integrity. When such instances occur, it is paramount for the conversationalist, who's statement was the genesis
for his opponent's surpise assault to begin with, to respond:

(c'mon lemme finish)

I need a cell phone.

Lookit, I haven't read as much as most other people here probably and I certainly don't pretend to know everything (or anything) about other cultures like Sweden. I'm American and hence, dumb and ignorant. But that's why I'm here. To learn. And be wary, I am. One thing I do know about Sweden is they put out some fantastic emo music. Favez, Last Days of April, and Starmarket to name a few. Like I said, dumb American.

You're on the right track about USA, the (AIDS) capital of the world. As in we're never going to adopt your ideaologies totally.

(Oh my God, that wierdo checked out my profile.....ugh)

C'MON! I HAD NO IDEA THERE WERE CHICKS HERE!? (see the fourth line of this post)

However, don't hate me cuz I use a time card willingly (or a computer........whatever). I don't think I'm as hard- core "rightJ" as some of you guys think I am. Or I think I am. My fellow oppresive, imperialist bud Stormin Norman wrote a very nice response to the opening post of this thread to which I will give a response. Hopefully we're still friends afterward.

I think we should have socialized health care.

NORM! DON'T LEAVE! DON'T! Noooooo! aw...............fuck.......

I do. I'm chronically ill.

(yeah you are cappie)

Fuck you. I won't get into it, but I see doctors regularly. Don't worry, I'm not going to die anytime soon.

WOLFIESMITH/BULLJIVUS/FIELD MARSHALL (unison)
Fuck!

Yeah, I'm fine. As long as don't severe any main arteries (sorry Gacky). But the medication I take, regularly, is very, very expensive. Luckily, I'm poor enough for my insurance to cover it completely. Quite a proletiat disease indeed, eh? But, I've read an article recently in Newsweek about kids with the same thing I've got. Their parents make too much money and the insurance won't pay for it. I know what these kids go through, and I know I act like a jackass here, but I mean it when I say I have to fight hard not to ball my eyes out over this sometimes. Fuck you. Trust me.

Let's put it this way, you probably can't get it in Cuba. And if I had a plane, or money to smuggle, I would make sure it got there somehow. I don't fucking care.

I have dear, dear friends who are Irish. They go to college for free.

Wha-?

Yeah, Fuckin-A. That's good. Let's do it here.

And I'm for welfare. It's good thing. It can be abused. But so can Percocet..............:)

So am I a socialist? A social democrat?

CHILD-LIKE EMPERESS (tears down her face)
Give- me- a- name!!!!!!!!!

I will say this much, I will never, ever endorse any system of government which-IN ANY WAY-would ever police the avenues of thought and information which should otherwise flow freely throughout this world of ours. I will put a fucking knife through your heart if you try to take my words from me.

-Kid

Eazy-E gave Big Bird AIDS

................um, my breath............have you been talking to Jess?

(Edited by American Kid at 3:52 am on July 8, 2002)

[boadicea88]

AK, will you please try and say something to the point!?

[RedCeltic]

I think we should have socialized health care.

So do I. So does my brother who's a Democrat. Maybe your a left wing Liberal or a Social Democrat.. but what's the difference of what you call yourself really?

Socialist? Well no, I don't think your quite a Marxist still quite to the left in respect to Stormin Norman's McCarthyist ramblings.

Even if we in the US where as progressive as Canada or the UK, it would at least be a step in the right direction.

[Ymir]

American Kid your posts are difficult to read due to you constantly interrupting yourself.

[American Kid]

.................I think I did.............what ISN'T to the point? I just MADE fuckin' WAVES here, guy! I'm the fuckin' AMERICAN KID, and I'm fuckin' endorsin' socialist policies! What the fuck do you want:

"Okay, um, the gross national net worth of Thailand per capita is roughly 20 million. Mmm, yes, let's see here, check my spread sheets.............Mm, yes, that seems to be more than enough capital to spread around, and according to the wages, though meager, of the Thai people, I feel, according to my numbers and my mming and my spreadsheets that, yes, um, excelsior!, my argument is indeed a fine example of the benefits of capitalism and all you left wingers are going to truly find out there is a God when you die and your gonna fry in Gap © hell when you get there. Mmm."

Seriously. Numbers and stats. Numbers and stats......

I think you're jealous because Lindsay called me endearingly odd and inquisitive.

(No, seriously, what did Jess tell you?)

-Kid

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
have you noticed my second star........................?[hr]It looks good on ya! But I've still got more stars than you.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
A ton of welfare mothers watch daytime talk shows. Mine being one of them.[hr]Damn, you're 23 and your mom still manages to get welfare checks? I didn't mean "welfare mother" in the slang racist way (as a politically correct substitute for "nigger" ), I meant literal welfare mothers. I know that lots of black women watch Oprah because I've got an aunt who's black and is in love with her, but that's not what I meant.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
In normal converstational engagements, it is very common, if not an integral aspect, that one conversationalists shall interject, if not cut off completely, his adjecent debater, and his argument, in order to tactifully introduce into the discussion, an argument of his own, which besides being a disproving factor, often results in the massive loss of personal integrity. When such instances occur, it is paramount for the conversationalist, who's statement was the genesis
for his opponent's surpise assault to begin with, to respond:

(c'mon lemme finish)

I need a cell phone.[hr]Yeah, I understand. But since many of us (most notably, yours truly) use parentheses in normal posts, it would be nice if you'd try the following format:
Me: A planned economy is wrong because--
Hypothetical Opponent: I know what you'll say and you're wrong, you capitalist pig! Fuck you! Fuck cheeze whiz!
Me: Like I was saying . . .[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
Lookit, I haven't read as much as most other people here probably and I certainly don't pretend to know everything (or anything) about other cultures like Sweden. I'm American and hence, dumb and ignorant. But that's why I'm here. To learn. And be wary, I am. One thing I do know about Sweden is they put out some fantastic emo music. Favez, Last Days of April, and Starmarket to name a few. Like I said, dumb American.[hr]Sweden's economy is, technically, capitalist. But Sweden takes very, very good care of its people. I tried to find you a nice little website about Sweden's economy, but I couldn't. (Everything was in PDF.) Oh, well.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
You're on the right track about USA, the (AIDS) capital of the world. As in we're never going to adopt your ideaologies totally.

(Oh my God, that wierdo checked out my profile.....ugh)[hr]America isn't the AIDS capital of the world, but DC is the AIDS capital of America. And if you don't stay the fuck away from my profile, I just might get a restraining order.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
C'MON! I HAD NO IDEA THERE WERE CHICKS HERE!?[hr]We're everywhere. You can't escape us. We WILL track you down and we WILL make you listen to Vagina Music![hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
I don't think I'm as hard- core "rightJ" as some of you guys think I am. Or I think I am.[hr]I can tell that you're not much of a hard-core rightwinger because in the above line you said "CHICKS" instead of "WOMENFOLK".[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
WOLFIESMITH/BULLJIVUS/FIELD MARSHALL (unison)
Fuck![hr]I had no idea you knew how to write in screenplay format. That's pretty cool. I was on a capitalist/imperialist/fascist TV show once. (I was only an extra though.) I won't tell you which show it was, but I'll give you a hint: It took place in the Syphillis capital of the USA.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
So am I a socialist? A social democrat?[hr]You'll never be a "true socialist" until you learn to suck up to the board's Stalinist/overly hawkish/12-year-old/RATM fan club establishment. I'm sure that if you do searches for the members CheGuevara, STALINSOLDIERS, yuriandropov or Lenin you'll find the guidelines for being a "true communist". What you're saying sounds kind of like what social democrats say, but I haven't seen your other posts so I don't know all about what you believe in. You seem to think the same way as most Europeans.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
I will say this much, I will never, ever endorse any system of government which-IN ANY WAY-would ever police the avenues of thought and information which should otherwise flow freely throughout this world of ours.[hr] KGB AGENT
Send him to the Gulag!

American kid is picked up and thrown into Siberia.

AMERICAN KID
Nooooooooo!

American Kid starts to cry.


Don't worry. The only people who are anti-freedom of speech are the people who think that my grandfather deserved to have to leave his country after seeing all of his friends die because he was a different kind of communist than Stalin. Most of us here are free speechniks.[hr]Quote: from American Kid on 10:49 pm on July 7, 2002
Eazy-E gave Big Bird AIDS[hr]He must have given it to Big Bird in one of their trailers while they were taping the NWA/Sesame Street Christmas Special.

Lindsay

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 11:31 pm on July 7, 2002)

[American Kid]

"Elvis, wuz a hero to most, but he never meant SHIT to me!!!!!!"

Yeah..................boy.

Well, I put myself out there as a struggling writer, but I'll tell you, the goal, since high school, has been, and will always be, film. If you want to see some of my screen writing work, which I'm exceptionally proud of by the way, check out the 3rd page of the "Stupid American Probiganda" thread started by that brainiac "Left Wing Commie". It's me vs. Field Marshall, for a few pages over there. But I feel the 3rd page is by far the most entertaining.

My mom doesn't get welfare. But we used to, you're right, when I was younger.

Vagina music, huh.................I can dig it. Julianna Hatfield. Amy Corriea. The Anniversary. Etc.......

Though nothing beats emo.

IWDY: "And if you don't stay the FUCK away from my...."

Do you teach your kids with that mouth?

So that's that. It's sunday night. This board is ruining my Sunday nights. Can't turn off my brain I guess.......

-El Kidde

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from American Kid on 11:45 pm on July 7, 2002
IWDY: "And if you don't stay the FUCK away from my...."

Do you teach your kids with that mouth?By the time I get my hands on them, they're already in middle school and they know all of those words. Some of them even seem to know more of that language than I do! But I would never talk like that around them. When I'm teaching, I'm dressed up all nice and I try to keep my accent and slang to a minimum. You wouldn't recognize me. But then again, you've never met me so you wouldn't recognize me no matter what, anyway.

I'll go check that thread out now. I usually try to stay away from that crap, because I can feel my IQ dropping every time someone tells me that my religion makes me greedy and I'm not a true revolutionary because I've never tried to blow up the White House.

Lindsay

[American Kid]

I just went back and re-read it myself.

God I'm an asshole...............

-The Victorious Kid

[American Kid]

BTW, gliding my cursor across your quote is like walking through hot asphalt. It's kind of neat though. Every other word attempts to suck you into a different web site.

"13-OLD SUDAN CHILD SUFFERS MID LIFE CRISIS"

Gotta love the Onion.

-Quagmire Kid

[I Will Deny You]

Yes. It would be unfair of me to ask all of the board members to read a Marion Barry quote without taking them someplace cool. (However, I think that everyone on this baord owes me, because at least I didn't use "***** set me up!")

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

It appears that I might have been wrong about you, American Kid. I guess I should've known from your area of study that you had been corrupted by liberal nonsense. What a tragedy, when someone's mind is crippled by left wing nonsense. Yet, another casualty in this war against the unprincipled. My condolences to your welfare mother.


McCarthyism, you equate me to that guy. I find that insulting, since he was a self aggrandizing bastard who cared about nothing more than his political career. My motives are in no way similar to his, as I still believe in free thought and the right of free association.
No, my friends, there will never be another red scare, for the public has generally accepted your views. I await the dictator needed to complete the picture, which you communists/socialists have painted. It is only a matter of time before you get your just desserts. This will happen as a result of your inability to comprehend self-determination and your acquiescence of your personal freedoms. I hope you enjoy starvation and shallow graves. Those are the only things that will exist in surplus quantities. Other valuable commodities will remain in short supply when those who sold you into slavery hoard the artifacts of a productive society.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:10 pm on July 8, 2002)

[American Kid]

Ouch......................

Ouch, ouch, ouch............That hurt worse than Field Marshall calling my knowledge of WW2 feeble.

However, it's important to me that you realize that I feel the way I do out of what I believe is right. You're well aware, I'm no college student. I listen to Rush, dude. But there's a line to be drawn. This country is good, but it's also definetely fucked up. Especially the healthcare system. I was in the ER a few months ago and I overheard a conversation between a nurse and a doctor (a good guy, who incidentely was a customer of mine yesterday) where they basically were throwing a guy out because he didn't have insurance. A sick guy, being given the boot. You may have your health, and count your blessings if you do. Though I hope you have a good health plan as well. Because God help you if you don't.

Maybe I was stretching a bit with Irsishization of higher learning. I realize there are scholarships out there, everywhere, that can help you in this country. People are throwing around free money like confetti. Maybe it shouldn't be free across the board. We're a much larger country. However, a friend of mine, who's like a goddamn computer genius, has had to work at Best Buy for the last two years, because he doesn't have enough to pay for school. I understand, you could say it's a good virtue that he's working so hard to pay for school, and this is all part of a learning process. But it still sucks.

Some principles (sorry, that word) of Socialism..............ugh, I condone. I feel it's what's right. I've seen Dr. Shivago enough times to be absolutely terrified over communism and detest it wholly. Lookit, economically, I really don't care one way or the other. I just want to know that if I want to go to college, someone is going to help me. And if I get sick, someone is going to take care of me. Two things you can't really be too sure of...........

Your defeatism disturbs me though, Norman. I wonder, do you think Clinton was a dictator? If not, defintely Hillary then. I don't like how you're "awaiting the dictator". You sound spooky, kind of like a depressed Nostradamus. And do you honestly think shallow graves and starvation are going to be the end result? God that sounds morbid.

It's okay though. Hey, we can't agree on everything. We're still on the same side anyway. Don't hate me because I'm poor and need help. Everyone does. But we didn't need it forever, I nor my mother still recieve any money.

Death to the pinko commies. Or their movement at least.

-AK

[American Kid]

Maybe I was a little TOO tactful, eh.....................?

[American Kid]

Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch...........

And, curious, what's my area of study? Not that I'm an artist I hope.

Maybe the enemies here are harder to define than I originally thought.................

Again, I'll put a fucking knife through ANYONE'S heart if.........

-The mournful Kid

(Edited by American Kid at 1:10 pm on July 8, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

Sorry, maybe I was a little harsh. I did not intend to hurt your feelings. My only intent was to get you to question the true cost of these programs that I was surprised to hear you support.
Despite my apparent defeatist tone, realize that I have not given up. A dictator is something I would be extremely opposed to, as I hope you would be too. If I had given up all hope I would not be hear discussing these issues, because I'd be cleaning my guns and counting my bullets.
My original praise of you still stands. I realize that you are one of the only rational contributors to this post and that is to be respected. We can still be friends, but I think we should debate some of the topics where we differ. Perhaps I could convince you of why I feel so strongly opposed to universal health care. You seem like the type who would listen objectively.
My first post mentioned a natural procession of government. This is obviously a topic that I need to define for you in detail, but it will take some time. Apparently, it is vital for me to do this in order for others to comprehend that prophetic view that you noted. I will do this soon, just so you understand some of my reasoning. Looks like I will be spending some time at the library.
As to your area of study, I thought I remembered that you were an aspiring writer. Sorry if I thought wrong. Most writers have degrees in the liberal arts. Although I respect English majors, a liberal arts degree is not something which I completely respect. To me, liberal arts majors are looking for an easy ticket through college and many times lack critical thinking.
Sorry if I offended you. Sometimes I can be brash.

[abstractmentality]

as a side note, SN, putting money into social programs is one of the most benifiting places to put money, as a country.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Yeah, "social programs".

I submit that the government create a new "social program". They buy 100,000 toilets, then print $1 billion, then flush said dollars down said toilets.

We'll cut out the middle man!

The new, efficient US government!

[Commie Canuck 15]

man... a revolution would be possible in north america but you'd first have to work in the third world, help them get there independence from those capitalist dogs, then with no little nations to exploit eventaully the US economy would collapse then we could have our revolution. well...maybe in canada, US, i am not sure.

[Stormin Norman]

Man, CI, that one made me laugh my ass off. Keep them coming.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:48 pm on July 8, 2002
Yeah, "social programs".

I submit that the government create a new "social program". They buy 100,000 toilets, then print $1 billion, then flush said dollars down said toilets.

We'll cut out the middle man!

The new, efficient US government!
Let's hope that I can finish typing this post before I die laughing at your funny, funny joke.

In Europe, where education and medicine are far more "socialized", the education system is undoubtedly better and far more people have adequate health care.

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

Adequate health care, you say. What is adequate about waiting for months for service? Exactly how many MRI's do these socialist countries have? Who created the cutting edge technology that they are too poor to afford?

[abstractmentality]

thank you IWDY. i was wondering if CI was going to write anything about the fact that social programs do do more, or if CI was content with what he wrote.
also, i had a physiology teacher who said that he, as well as many of his friends from college, would have become doctors if it werent for the fact that they do sometimes have to kick people out, as AK says. many people in the health profession are lost because of this, and if the insurance worked a little better, then people of the health profession would be more abundant. who knows, the ones to leave it because of the insurance stuff may have become some of the better doctors, etc.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 8:03 pm on July 8, 2002)


(Edited by abstractmentality at 8:17 pm on July 8, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 3:02 pm on July 8, 2002
Adequate health care, you say. What is adequate about waiting for months for service? Exactly how many MRI's do these socialist countries have? Who created the cutting edge technology that they are too poor to afford?
Who ever said anything about countries that are strictly socialist? I was talking about Western European, capitalist countries that are our biggest allies. They all have better education than we do. We are also the only country in the developed world that does not have socialized health care. If you would have read my previous posts, you'd see that I am not a strict socialist anyway. How many people in England and France have to wait months longer for MRIs than uninsured, poor, inner-city working mothers in America do?

Lindsay

[RedCeltic]

How many children who go to inner city schools in New York City have no or inadequate eye care? We're not talking welfare or even extreme poverty because those people are covered.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Again, commies/socials argue theory against reality. You say US education standards are poor, then why does the US still lead the world in technological innvation and invention in all fields.

As usual, all I have to do is point to real world facts and behaviors, and sit back and listen to your dogmatic responses.

Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?

[Capitalist Imperial]

legitimate answers anyone?

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:27 pm on July 8, 2002


Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?


the answer: heavy subsidies to high tech stuff through the pentagon. yes, it is NOT through free market capitalism.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:27 pm on July 8, 2002
Again, commies/socials argue theory against reality. You say US education standards are poor, then why does the US still lead the world in technological innvation and invention in all fields.

As usual, all I have to do is point to real world facts and behaviors, and sit back and listen to your dogmatic responses.

Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?


Actually, most of the latest inventions have been coming from Japan. What has the U.S invented recently that ISN'T used to kill people?

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:27 pm on July 8, 2002
Again, commies/socials argue theory against reality. You say US education standards are poor, then why does the US still lead the world in technological innvation and invention in all fields.

As usual, all I have to do is point to real world facts and behaviors, and sit back and listen to your dogmatic responses.

Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?



The fact is that more high tech degrees have been comming from outside the US.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 11:35 pm on July 8, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:27 pm on July 8, 2002


Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?


the answer: heavy subsidies to high tech stuff through the pentagon. yes, it is NOT through free market capitalism.


We were talking about education. These are mostly american minds developing the ideas. You are talking about mere funding and procurement, which is a seperate issue.


(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 12:11 am on July 9, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 11:37 pm on July 8, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:27 pm on July 8, 2002
Again, commies/socials argue theory against reality. You say US education standards are poor, then why does the US still lead the world in technological innvation and invention in all fields.

As usual, all I have to do is point to real world facts and behaviors, and sit back and listen to your dogmatic responses.

Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?


Actually, most of the latest inventions have been coming from Japan. What has the U.S invented recently that ISN'T used to kill people?


Actually, Drake, the japaneze are not vey inventive at all. They are very innovative, though, meaning that they take existing technologies and make them better.

However, the USA is still at the forefront of technology in all areas, including medicine, computers, engineering, and general inventions. Even the japaneze take second place in innovation,let alone inventiveness.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 11:37 pm on July 8, 2002
What has the U.S invented recently that ISN'T used to kill people?


Relatively recently: the internet, fiber optics, the segway HT.

Coming soon: the map of the human genome and nanotechnology

[solidarityinactive]

Well, peeps, that will be my first reply (drums).. I'm simply adding to what RedCeltic said in one of his reply and that is :"Even if we in the US where as progressive as Canada or the UK, it would at least be a step in the right direction." Indeed it would be a step in the right direction but the thing is that, for example, our health system (I'm talking about the one I know, the Canadian one) is becoming more and more unpopular because of the lack of services, hospitals have to close down beds 'n stuff, nurses have ...wow..incredible working hours, etc you see the portrait. I'm not complaining tho, I find myself very lucky to live with those great social ideas, but the sad thing is that its coming unpopular. Wealth fair (sorry I'm french speaking and the dictionary is not near actualy...*blushes*) is a great and wonderfull idea, but the working class that pay for it is starting to get tired of those who abuses ( i.e. big prejudice we have here: all wealth fair are sitting on their ass not looking for jobs and bla bla bla)... Now I don't want to be a pessimist but could USA put an health system, I mean would the population agree with a raise in taxes and others "disadvantages" that comes with a "more" social system?

As for the advancement in technologies for USA I would precise that there's an exode around the world, especialy from my country, a "brain exode" like we call it here. So maybe that's why the technologies are boosted.. But again, that's my humble opinion and I'm conscious that I don't have ALL the prooves and facts. I don't recall exactly who said that USA were the #1 in Internet access or summin -or maybe I didn't understood right- but if I did, it's false because Canada has the largest population using internet.

To get back to the revolution subject (boy was I far?)I personaly believe -with my humble opinion that is ;)- that the revolution could actualy work, even in North America, if it was slow and powerfull... It should start in the minds of the generation to come, with our help, when they will not only realise that the capitalism we are living is not realy "healthy" for us and for the rest of the planet.

But the thing is that we have to stay together and strong, even in our differences... If I believe in a revolution ..sure, but revolution is effective when it has popularity; when the middle class is shaken enough to get up and "fight" .. If I believe it will work; well...at least I'll give it a try when the time will come..if we are able to work together and make it happen.

[American Kid]

Good evening gentlemen. Red Celtic, Capitalist Imperial, Stormin Norman, Solidarity (welcome aboard my fine, mapleleafed friend), Drake Dracoli, abstractmentality................................. ..............................."Lindsay"........:)

So it looks like the stork flew by and left close to a dozen new replies to my little, baby thread. Always a welcome surprise............

So Norman, glad to hear you didn't flush me completely down the toilet. Yeah, it was kind of like, "YOU'RE NO SON OF MINE!!!!!!!!!" But I understand. You're absolutely right about my lack of knowledge as to the COST these "social programs" would bring to the tax paying masses and so on and so forth. And I anxiously await your stuff for me. Although I'm pretty set in my belief that the health care system is inadequate. Now, the light at the end of this tunnel here is I'm not completely set in my belief over what should be done about it. Is a "socialistic" answer the best one? It's the best I've heard so far. Everyone gets treated, and it's free. I think they do this in Ireland too. That's the way it should be, I think. Ideally. But it doesnt take a cynic to show you how far ideals will take you in this kooky, mixed up world.

GEN. SHWARZKOPF: But Kid, you don't understand, where do you think ALL THIS money is going to come from?

AK:...........uh, I don't know. Hurry up and go to the library.

So my head waits to be filled with reason.

So that's it. I'm going to bang away at the drums downstairs for a while and see if I get any good responses later on.

One final thought though for Norm: Referring back to my earlier statement about famillies making too much money, and children as a result not getting the medication they really, really, truly need (trust me on this) because the big evil corporate Insurance companies won't cough up the dough. What's to be done about this? Really? I mean, something has to. It's.......not right. If you need me to, for the sake of lending some substance to this debate and keeping it a little less vague, the Kid is willing to take a little cyber-anonyminity and toss it overboard without a life-perserver if he has to and tell you what this mysterious "condition" of mine is. If that'll help. But, whatever. Lemme know.

-The Kid of Kids.


.........ps, Lindsay, is an insecure, fishing-for-compliments, goofy writer asking too much for a little review of me and Field Marshall's clash of the titans from the "Stupid American Probiganda" thread? Comrade Izm won't even give me an honest one. I've asked him and he didn't bother. Why wouldn't he..... Holy shit, he probably didn't like it, did he? You didn't either. I'm a fraud. Ugh.........I'm going back to college.

SN: "Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!"



(Edited by American Kid at 2:14 am on July 9, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

.........ps, Lindsay, is an insecure, fishing-for-compliments, goofy writer asking too much for a little review of me and Field Marshall's clash of the titans from the "Stupid American Probiganda" thread? Comrade Izm won't even give me an honest one. I've asked him and he didn't bother. Why wouldn't he..... Holy shit, he probably didn't like it, did he? You didn't either. I'm a fraud. Ugh.........I'm going back to college.

I don't know about Lindsay, I'll let her speak for herself..

As for me however.. I must admit that it was the funnyest post I've ever read on this board. ( and I've been here since the board started 1 year ago this month.

It read exactly like a screen play, and would say you bult an intence moment.

I loved the part about the red stripe up Field Marshall's back.

[American Kid]

Thanks, Celtic

Who wants to put up some money and see that thing hit the silver screen?

-The Hollywood Kid

[Anonymous]

If a stupid country like Portugal could overcome a 900 years old monarchy to replace it by a republic why cant we "kids" make a revolution! you SUCK!

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:27 pm on July 8, 2002
How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?How many of these inventors went to American public schools? I'd bet that public school students aren't #1 in inventions. They're #1 in incarceration.

Instead of talking about inventions, why don't you address the fact that children in US public schools don't do nearly as well as children in Western European public schools? Go to your local inner city and tell me how many kids you saw that look like future inventors.

Lindsay

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 11:41 pm on July 8, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:27 pm on July 8, 2002
Again, commies/socials argue theory against reality. You say US education standards are poor, then why does the US still lead the world in technological innvation and invention in all fields.

As usual, all I have to do is point to real world facts and behaviors, and sit back and listen to your dogmatic responses.

Answer the question: How can the US be so lacking in education, but #1 in invention, innovation, technical competence, and enginering?



The fact is that more high tech degrees have been comming from outside the US.


Fact? If you claim it as fact, cite your source.

[I Will Deny You]

Welcome to your Inbox I Will Deny You

Message from Capitalist Imperial sent to you on 3:15 pm on July 9, 2002
Message title: My reply

Our high-schools can use some work, but we have many great american minds that go to american colleges, and american colleges are the worlds best, 2nd to none!! That is where our great minds and ideas are truely developed!

Powered by Ikonboard 2.1.9 Beta[hr]Well, it's certainly nice that great minds are being developed in colleges. But the American government does not have much of an obligation to provide adequate colleges (I'm sure many of the colleges you're referring to are private, anyway) and less than half of all Americans ever get to college! The American government has a responsibility to educate kids before they get to college. Public education is an obligation.

Lindsay

[Guest]

hanzo here

a revolution is much, much more likely to occur somewhaere other than the US

[Hattori Hanzo]

ok i'm now on

[Hattori Hanzo]

a revolution isn't likely to happen in the USA

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Solidarity on 1:37 am on July 9, 2002

To get back to the revolution subject (boy was I far?)I personaly believe -with my humble opinion that is ;)- that the revolution could actualy work, even in North America, if it was slow and powerfull... It should start in the minds of the generation to come, with our help, when they will not only realise that the capitalism we are living is not realy "healthy" for us and for the rest of the planet.

But the thing is that we have to stay together and strong, even in our differences... If I believe in a revolution ..sure, but revolution is effective when it has popularity; when the middle class is shaken enough to get up and "fight" .. If I believe it will work; well...at least I'll give it a try when the time will come..if we are able to work together and make it happen.


Why would the middle class get up and fight? They would be fighting for a worse standard of living and less freedom than they have now!

Revolution occurs when the majority disagrees with the current system.. That is not what we have here. The majority of north american and western european nations enjoy and endorse capitalism.. This board represents a very small minority. Most people like thew way things are, therefore a revolution is not possible nor wanted by the people.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 8:21 pm on July 9, 2002
Welcome to your Inbox I Will Deny You

Message from Capitalist Imperial sent to you on 3:15 pm on July 9, 2002
Message title: My reply

Our high-schools can use some work, but we have many great american minds that go to american colleges, and american colleges are the worlds best, 2nd to none!! That is where our great minds and ideas are truely developed!

Powered by Ikonboard 2.1.9 Beta[hr]Well, it's certainly nice that great minds are being developed in colleges. But the American government does not have much of an obligation to provide adequate colleges (I'm sure many of the colleges you're referring to are private, anyway) and less than half of all Americans ever get to college! The American government has a responsibility to educate kids before they get to college. Public education is an obligation.

Lindsay


There are many good colleges in the USA that are subsidized by state and local governments, and the US government gives out billions every year in loans and gtrants. Countless scholarships are also available. The 5 of adult US citizens with a college degree: 24%, the worlds highest percentage.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:51 pm on July 9, 2002
There are many good colleges in the USA that are subsidized by state and local governments, and the US government gives out billions every year in loans and gtrants. Countless scholarships are also available. The 5 of adult US citizens with a college degree: 24%, the worlds highest percentage.That's not the point. College is not available to everyone, and even if it were there will always be some people who don't go. I'm not talking about college. (And I think we all know that most of the people who invented "the internet, fiber optics, the segway HT" went to private colleges and they probably went to private grade schools as well.) What I'm talking about is the education that the government has an obligation to provide, the wonderful Public Education that's supposed to keep our democracy going. PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE US IS HORRIBLE, AND THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT. THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY EXCUSE FOR IT NO MATTER HOW MANY HARVARD GRADUATES INVENT FIBER OPTICS.

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

If college were available to everyone, that would make them a socialized system. An institution subsidized and provided for by the government, like that of the public schools in America, is degraded by the complete fraud that occurs on the part of public officials.
The failure of the kindergarten through 12th grade education is a direct result of the mediocrity that socialization has an uncanny way of causing. If the education system were allowed to operate on free market principles, then the quality of education would increase as a direct result of competition.
Fraud exists when people have no choice but to sink their hard earn money into a through where worthless bureaucrats have access. Money is accounted for in the private market. It is not in the businessman's interest to provide an inferior product, because his customers have the option of withdrawing their support. Bureaucrats and politicians alike have the luxury of a cash base, which everyone already assumes is going to waste. Therefore, they can embezzle funds, provide substandard product, and then claim that more money is needed to fix the problem. I ask you, which do you feel is more honest in its approach?


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 11:31 pm on July 10, 2002)

[American Kid]

Good morning. First off I noticed on the home page that we have a new member today. So I'd like to just like to do the right thing and cordially welcome...........Hienrich Himmler.........2? Uh, yeah.......welcome. I'm, uh.....Guy Who Cut Daniel Pearl's Throat....4.........

ANYWAY (that's not a joke; really dude's name).

Hienrich Himmler (October 1943): "Most of you men know what it is like to see 100 corpses, side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have stood fast through this-and except for cases of human weakness-to have stayed decent, that has made us hard. This is an unwritten and never-to-be written page of glory in our history....We can say that we have carried out this most difficult of tasks in a spirit of love for our people. And we have suffered no harm to our inner being, our soul, our character........"

.........................? Charming.

Norman, firstly of course ( and I'm not being sarcastic) take your time with your preparation of our health care issue. I'm eagerly awaiting your stuff. I would like to add that your posts are always like a spoonful of castor oil for me. They hurt going down. You talk tough. But I respect it, and try to refrain from the standard knee-jerk reactions to them. I'm always forced to reexamine my own views, when you decry socialism (ie, handouts) and speak instead of the virtues of perserverance and hard work. Those are things I want to believe in too. But like most people I have doubts that I'm strong enough sometimes. But you fill me with notions to rise to the challenge.

NORMAN: You little pussy! You can't do it on your own? Wut? You need help? Huh, need some help you little pussy?

AK: Fuck you! Fuck you! AAaarrrggghhh!!! I'll show you! I'm not a pussy!!!!!!!

............was THAT your intention ever, I wonder......? :)

But I'm making a request for you to elaborate: if education became a socialized system, subsidized and provided for by the government, explain exactly how it would be degraded by fraud on the part of public officials. I don't exactly understand ithis Maybe you'll be like, "AK, you fuckin' idiot, I did, in the paragraphs below". Well then I'll be like, "I know, but I spend my days playing drums and going to the beach. I need to be walked through stuff like this!"

I'll be in and out most of the day. Talk to ya'.

-AK

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from American Kid on 4:00 pm on July 10, 2002

But I'm making a request for you to elaborate: if education became a socialized system, subsidized and provided for by the government, explain exactly how it would be degraded by fraud on the part of public officials. I don't exactly understand ithis Maybe you'll be like, "AK, you fuckin' idiot, I did, in the paragraphs below". Well then I'll be like, "I know, but I spend my days playing drums and going to the beach. I need to be walked through stuff like this!"

I'll be in and out most of the day. Talk to ya'.

-AK

Basically, it is just like what is happeneing with state and local governments in any public sector institution.

Bureaucrats misappropriate funds, don't spend the time to acheive the best prices on procurement, and even try to find more expensive ways to distribute funds so that the budget can be increased next year. Of course there is always misuse and embezzlement mixed in, which compounds the problem.. All the while quality and results stagnante or often decline. It is a vicious cycle. Their needs tobe more accountibility. Young american minds are already very capable and immersed in a culture that promotes individual responsibility, innovation, and cutting-edge thinking. We just need to tweak the public education system to be in a position of quality to better focus these young minds and truly develop them on an even grander scale.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 6:30 am on July 10, 2002
If college were available to everyone, that would make them a socialized system. An institution subsidized and provided for by the government, like that of the public schools in America, is degraded by the complete fraud that occurs on the part of public officials.
The failure of the kindergarten through 12th grade education is a direct result of the mediocrity that socialization has an uncanny way of causing. If the education system were allowed to operate on free market principles, then the quality of education would increase as a direct result of competition.This is pure bullshit. Socialized medicine works very, very well in Western Europe, where more people have health care than they do here. And the same goes for education. You give the same bullshit arguments over and over again, but the evidence isn't on your side.

Lindsay

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 8:06 pm on July 10, 2002
[quote]Quote: from Stormin Norman on 6:30 am on July 10, 2002
This is pure bullshit. Socialized medicine works very, very well in Western Europe, where more people have health care than they do here. And the same goes for education. You give the same bullshit arguments over and over again, but the evidence isn't on your side.

Lindsay

Actually, at the college level, our partly-subsidized and partly private colleges outperform Europe's, IWDY. The US has the highest % of college grads in the world, 24%. And while your heathcare system is socialized, the quality and technicogical level is not as high as the US. Also, America does have free medical clinics for the poor, and basic medical needs are met for most everyone. No one is dying on the street due to lack of medicine. It is not as bad as most anti-americans make it out to be.

Apparently, IWDY your post is BS

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:51 pm on July 10, 2002
Actually, at the college level, our partly-subsidized and partly private colleges outperform Europe's, IWDY. The US has the highest % of college grads in the world, 24%. And while your heathcare system is socialized, the quality and technicogical level is not as high as the US. Also, America does have free medical clinics for the poor, and basic medical needs are met for most everyone. No one is dying on the street due to lack of medicine. It is not as bad as most anti-americans make it out to be.

Apparently, IWDY your post is BSWhen I said "education", I meant public education. Why don't you seem to understand that? COLLEGE IS NOT THE ISSUE. Okay? I suppose that the technological level might be higher in a country without socialized healthcare (although Japan has socialized health care, and they seem to be doing just fine technology-wise), but I don't believe that quality is lower. And when's the last time you went to one of those gorgeous clinics for the poor? I've been to those a few times, and I actually posted about one of my injuries that sent me to a clinic once, and I can tell you that those clinics are not exactly shining examples of technological innovation, to say the very least. And often the "basic needs" of poor senior citizens are not met until they start buying their prescription drugs in Canada.

Lindsay

[I Will Deny You]

Capitalist Imperial, I know you've been here since my last post. Why didn't you reply?

Lindsay

[Capitalist Imperial]

I'm here, and your last post is legitimate. I agree with most of it.

What I'm saying is that real world facts and figures show that education and healthcare in the US, while they definately could use improvement, are not nearly as bad as anti-yanks make it out to be. If education was so bad, why does the US still lead in technolgy, engineering, medicine, business, and industry?

[Capitalist Imperial]

why did the form contents no recognize my latest reply?

[tebvie]

As someone who lives in the US I think education is what the govt. will let it be. See it's not that the US is better in most areas technically yes but not truly they have just convinced everyone else that they are. They have convinced a whole country of it a country that backs of the govt. who thought of it. Things here will never change until people start seeing how there "strong" country is destroying countries that truly are stronger not only because they aren't necessarily capitalist but because they truly have the people behind them. Did this make any sense?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from tebvie on 7:48 pm on July 11, 2002
As someone who lives in the US I think education is what the govt. will let it be. See it's not that the US is better in most areas technically yes but not truly they have just convinced everyone else that they are. They have convinced a whole country of it a country that backs of the govt. who thought of it. Things here will never change until people start seeing how there "strong" country is destroying countries that truly are stronger not only because they aren't necessarily capitalist but because they truly have the people behind them. Did this make any sense?

Not really, how is the US not the most technically advanced country?

[Moskitto]

Actually, at the college level, our partly-subsidized and partly private colleges outperform Europe's

In the UK universities aren't subsidized and there are no grants. And your universities outperform ours, therefore you have just proved that publicly subsidized education is better.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 2:14 pm on July 11, 2002
I'm here, and your last post is legitimate. I agree with most of it.

What I'm saying is that real world facts and figures show that education and healthcare in the US, while they definately could use improvement, are not nearly as bad as anti-yanks make it out to be. If education was so bad, why does the US still lead in technolgy, engineering, medicine, business, and industry?
So in other words, I'm right, but I shouldn't kvetch about greed and laziness because things could be worse.

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

In response to:

"This is pure bullshit. Socialized medicine works very, very well in Western Europe, where more people have health care than they do here."

The number of people served doesn't reflect the quality of service, now does it? Mcdonalds has a sign that details the number of people served. Would you rather be eating filee mignon or what passes for beef at Mcdonalds? Do you see my point. How many of your pissant nations in Europe are on the cutting edge of technology. If it wasn't for the United States, you guys would still be practicing blood letting.

[I Will Deny You]

Maybe you should give more detailed proof of the connection between private health care and new technology.

Also, who ever said that Western European health care was bad? My best friend is in London right now but she used to live in the US, and she can't tell the difference. Very few people who I have talked to can.

Lindsay

[Guest]

When I used the word technicaly I meant that not technology. See the US is like an icer crem man. It leads a child to beleive the ice cream is good and has no consequences and because it leads one child many follow. My point the govt. or who ever you want to blame has lead this country to beleive it is the best and because a few elite believe the whole country has. When in fact if the masses wanted any country could be just as "avanced". See it's all in the head that and well capitalist brain washing. I live in the US does that mean I want to live my whole life year maybe maybe not. But when I do consider why I am here and why I would stay here it would be becaus I would lik to think that all the hard work my parents went through wasn't in vain.

[tebvie]

When I used the word technicaly I meant that not technology. See the US is like an icer crem man. It leads a child to beleive the ice cream is good and has no consequences and because it leads one child many follow. My point the govt. or who ever you want to blame has lead this country to beleive it is the best and because a few elite believe the whole country has. When in fact if the masses wanted any country could be just as "avanced". See it's all in the head that and well capitalist brain washing. I live in the US does that mean I want to live my whole life year maybe maybe not. But when I do consider why I am here and why I would stay here it would be becaus I would lik to think that all the hard work my parents went through wasn't in vain.

[Stormin Norman]

In response to:

"Also, who ever said that Western European health care was bad? My best friend is in London right now but she used to live in the US, and she can't tell the difference. Very few people who I have talked to can."

I would be willing to bet that your friend does not have a life threatening illness or something obscure that has not been published extensively. With the amount of money supplied by a person's health care plan the doctors in America can exhaust every effort in finding the cause and possibly the cure without the burden of having to worry about cost. My health care plan allows for millions of dollars to be spent on hospital stays, surgery, and general health care expenses before I am no longer covered. Would the government put this kind of funding into just one of its citizens? The answer to that question depends on how much value the government places on your life. Again, I think the market mechanism which is devoid of such considerations and supplies the customer with the agreed upon services is better geared to avoid placing valuation on human life. With a socialized system I am sure it would take no time for the government to create committees to evaluate the costs and benefits for keeping certain people alive. How would you like to be voted off the planet by a bunch of bureaucrats?
I believe someone in this forum had a sob story about the free clinic. They sited the poor conditions and general lack of technology. Thank you, for you have demonstrated my point. Isn't a nationalized system of health care, a colossal free clinic system the very thing that you propose? Anyone who wants to see the effect that this sort of practice would cause, need only look to the current free clinic system to imagine the horrors that this would propel.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 8:18 pm on July 13, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from Stormin Norman on 8:16 am on July 13, 2002
I would be willing to bet that your friend does not have a life threatening illness or something obscure that has not been published extensively. With the amount of money supplied by a person's health care plan the doctors in America can exhaust every effort in finding the cause and possibly the cure without the burden of having to worry about cost. My health care plan allows for millions of dollars to be spent on hospital stays, surgery, and general health care expenses before I am no longer covered. Would the government put this kind of funding into just one of its citizens? The answer to that question depends on how much value the government places on your life. Again, I think the market mechanism which is devoid of such considerations and supplies the customer with the agreed upon services is better geared to avoid placing valuation on human life. With a socialized system I am sure it would take no time for the government to create committees to evaluate the costs and benefits for keeping certain people alive. How would you like to be voted off the planet by a bunch of bureaucrats?[hr]I am not going to deny that some people would have worse health care with socialized medicine. But they would be the richer people, so I'm sure that they could find someone to give them health care that is above what the government provides. There are millions of people who would not get millions of dollars, or even ten cents, from an insurance company for health care. And quite frankly, it sounds better to me if a few people get voted off the planet by a bunch of suits after their lives have been prolonged and they have been taken care of, than having millions of people die with no health care and millions of children go untreated for whatever problems they may have.[hr]Quote: from Stormin Norman on 8:16 am on July 13, 2002
I believe someone in this forum had a sob story about the free clinic. They sited the poor conditions and general lack of technology. Thank you, for you have demonstrated my point. Isn't a nationalized system of health care, a colossal free clinic system the very thing that you propose? Anyone who wants to see the effect that this sort of practice would cause, need only look to the current free clinic system to imagine the horrors that this would propel.[hr]No, current free clinics are very different from socialized clinics. Free clinics have hardly any money. But imagine all of the money that currently goes towards health insurance, and perhaps add a little more. Maybe the government could take the money that it spends on Plan Colombia, for example, and put it toward socialized clinics. Or maybe the government could stop paying to incarcerate pot smokers, and take the money for that and put it towards socialized clinics. Current above-average hospitals would get a little worse, but they would still be very good. And current free clinics would finally be able to give adequate health care to the poor.

Lindsay

[Xvall]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 1:03 pm on July 12, 2002
In response to:

"This is pure bullshit. Socialized medicine works very, very well in Western Europe, where more people have health care than they do here."

The number of people served doesn't reflect the quality of service, now does it? Mcdonalds has a sign that details the number of people served. Would you rather be eating filee mignon or what passes for beef at Mcdonalds? Do you see my point. How many of your pissant nations in Europe are on the cutting edge of technology. If it wasn't for the United States, you guys would still be practicing blood letting.




If it weren't for Europe, the United States wouldn't have existed.

[Moskitto]

Private health care and medical insurence is cheaper in Europe. That's what having socialised health care does, it brings down prices, something you capitalists like about capitalism.

Most middle-upper class families in europe have medical insurence for surgery and use the NHS for routine stuff. And Insurence is so much cheaper in Europe than the US. Yes I can prove this, my dad works in Medical Insurence.

[Moskitto]

The Worlds Top 10 Health Systems

1. France
2. Italy
3. San Marino
4. Andorra
5. Malta
6. Singapore
7. Spain
8. Oman
9. Austria
10. Japan

Source: World Health Organization

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:02 pm on July 13, 2002
The Worlds Top 10 Health Systems

1. France
2. Italy
3. San Marino
4. Andorra
5. Malta
6. Singapore
7. Spain
8. Oman
9. Austria
10. Japan

Source: World Health Organization


i dont see the US on that list...anything to say Norman

[Stormin Norman]

First of all, I would have to question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that the WHO would produce an objective rating of health care systems devoid of any political bias. Secondly, I would be willing to bet that the methods used to rate national health care rely upon how much the government spends on health care and what percentage of the population is covered under a universal plan. I will be right back, because I want to find this report and prove that my assertions are right.

Okay I'm back with the evidence I need to throw your argument in your face. I looked at Press Release WHO/44 21 June 2000, entitled WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION ASSESSES THE WORLD'S HEALTH SYSTEMS and here is what I found.

"In designing the framework for health system performance, WHO broke new methodological ground, employing a technique not previously used for health systems. It compares each country’s system to what the experts estimate to be the upper limit of what can be done with the level of resources available in that country. It also measures what each country’s system has accomplished in comparison with those of other countries."

This is the first report of its kind and has yet to be backed by any independent research. Scrutiny of data and results remain a critical feature for legitimizing any scientific research. This report is hardly a scientific study and has not been subjected to the kind of peer review necessary to back its findings.

"WHO’s assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs)."

Okay now we all know the things considered when determining the ratings. Let us now dissect them one by one.

"Responsiveness: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden. The reason these are all advanced industrial nations is that a number of the elements of responsiveness depend strongly on the availability of resources. In addition, many of these countries were the first to begin addressing the responsiveness of their health systems to people’s needs."

As you can see the United States was top ranked in the area of responsiveness, which is measured by expediency, effectiveness, and customer satisfaction.

"Fairness of financial contribution: When WHO measured the fairness of financial contribution to health systems, countries lined up differently. The measurement is based on the fraction of a household’s capacity to spend (income minus food expenditure) that goes on health care (including tax payments, social insurance, private insurance and out of pocket payments). Colombia was the top-rated country in this category, followed by Luxembourg, Belgium, Djibouti, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Japan and Finland."

Have they ever heard the expression, you get what you pay for. I doubt that the countries that paid little in health care costs benefit from good quality or service.

"Distribution of Health in the Populations: It is not sufficient to protect or improve the average health of the population, if - at the same time - inequality worsens or remains high because the gain accrues disproportionately to those already enjoying better health. The health system also has the responsibility to try to reduce inequalities by prioritizing actions to improve the health of the worse-off, wherever these inequalities are caused by conditions amenable to intervention. The objective of good health is really twofold: the best attainable average level – goodness – and the smallest feasible differences among individuals and groups – fairness. A gain in either one of these, with no change in the other, constitutes an improvement."

I think we can all see the cut of their jib. The rating system is obviously based on what the WHO considers 'fairness'. Translation: exactly how much does the government provide?

"Distribution of Financing: There are good and bad ways to raise the resources for a health system, but they are more or less good primarily as they affect how fairly the financial burden is shared. Fair financing, as the name suggests, is only concerned with distribution. It is not related to the total resource bill, nor to how the funds are used. The objectives of the health system do not include any particular level of total spending, either absolutely or relative to income. This is because, at all levels of spending there are other possible uses for the resources devoted to health. The level of funding to allocate to the health system is a social choice – with no correct answer. Nonetheless, the report suggests that countries spending less than around 60 dollars per person per year on health find that their populations are unable to access health services from an adequately performing health system."

The best line from this alludes to the fact that the overall performance is not rated and does not consider the total resource bill or how the funds are used. To paraphrase a little bit more. 'There is no right or wrong answer. Effectiveness is purely subjective. The only thing to be measured is how much the citizens are raped to provide an inadequate system of health care.'

In conclusion, I think we can all see that the WHO rating system is a flawed one that commends socialized health care. In overall effectiveness the U.S. was a top contender, but the level of importance place on government provisions for health care put the U.S. behind Oman. Oman did not get its high rank based on good health care, the reason it was placed top ten is because ten years ago Oman had a high mortality rate. They worked to improve this and now have a much lower instance. The WHO wanted to show the world how 'things can change', and Oman's ranking does not speak to the quality of health care in that nation. Much like the ranking fails to represent the superior care that American's enjoy. The cards were stacked against the U.S. in this report, because the data was cooked to portray universal health care as the best option. If our system operates under such poor standards, why then do people from all over the world flock to the U.S. for health care? Is it because they know that they would be waiting to die in socialized nations?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 8:38 pm on July 14, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Norman, you sure did a nice job of not replying to my post. Especially considering the fact that you gripe about your threads being ignored.

Lindsay

[Stormin Norman]

Lindsay,

Are you talking about this statement? "Maybe you should give more detailed proof of the connection between private health care and new technology. "

Sorry. I got caught up in the debate and forgot that it was posed. Notice I did answer the second part, though. Currently, I am busy with my studies, so I will have to get back to you with a good reply. I hope you understand. Let me know if that is the post you were talking about.

[GuerillaPurserTwo]

im gona start up a masive commie party and bring death 2 u cappie scum

[GuerillaPurserTwo]

Only violent conflict and protest can end the poverty of the south american masses

[GuerillaPurserTwo]

lenin24 es mi comarada

[GuerillaPurserTwo]

the companies who make Che t-shirts (like ones sold on this site) r made by poor 3rd-worlders for highly capitalist organizations!!!!

[marxistdisciple]

GP2 - Please don't do that.

To cut through all the stuff about public health care - the UK system isn't great, we do have problems. Especially a shotage of hospital staff. Hoverever, the US has a huge shortage of nurses. The INS actually has easier immigration rules for foreign nurses to help change this problem.

Secondly, the whole of my life, I have never had to worry about health insurance policies, whether I will be able to get healthcare etc. do you know why? It's free. The only thing I will ever have to pay for is perscriptions. they cost about $10 - regardless of the drug. I kind of like the idea of being able to go into a hospital without a credit card or an insurance certificate.
I saw my american friend's bill, she was (luckily) covered by insurance. she was charged $5000 for a few XRays. Anyone think that is remotely related to the cost of the resources? Why would it be? insurance companies and the government are paying.

Why should a drug distribution system be based entirely on what a drug company wants to charge? The biggest problem of health policies is the astronomically huge price of drugs. Of course they cost a lot, the richest companies in the world pay for them (Insurance.)
The price of drugs is killing millions of people in Africa, because they can't buy new HIV drugs to keep them alive longer. (And the companies obviously have patent protection.)

Private healthcare - great, if you can afford it. does that mean everyone else should die?

The beauty for insurance companies, is that they can charge ridiculous sums of money to insure you. Because, what are the chances of never going to a hopsital in your life? Even better, when people reach retirement age, they can charge even more!
Insurance companies win both ways. The person might have expensive treatment, but they can always pull out of the really expensive things like percriptions (most people have a lot of them) and just pay for things like broken bones, and cancer etc.
Even better for them, they can charge people with dangerous professions more, so they cover any chance of losing money. In fact, most everyone can make them a profit.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from GuerillaPurserTwo on 1:56 pm on July 16, 2002
im gona start up a masive commie party and bring death 2 u cappie scum


Uh-oh, I am scared.

[Moskitto]

I saw my american friend's bill, she was (luckily) covered by insurance. she was charged $5000 for a few XRays. Anyone think that is remotely related to the cost of the resources? Why would it be? insurance companies and the government are paying.

Insurence is also a lot more expensive in the US. That's why my dad gets people asking if their company covers the US.

[Solzhenitsyn]

High medical costs are due to a variety of factors, not the least of which is the litigation industry. For instance, malpractice insurance premiums for one doctor can total up to $100,000 or more a year. That's shocking! In fact, a Class 3 trauma center closed down in Las Vegas, NV because the doctors could no longer afford it. It was the only such center in the area. Nearly all of the OB/GYN doctors have left Mississippi and West Virginia due to legal costs. Tort reform, now!

If you want serious medical savings then repeal medical licensing. The government has no business acting as a cartel enforcer for the medical profession. This creates a monopoly with doctors setting the price for their own services without regard to market conditions.

Abolishing Medicare/Medicaid would also help. Doctors routinely gouge M/M patients because Medicare has to pay for it. So what would normally be a $20 office visit to a cash customer becomes an $80 bill sent to Medicare and a $10 dollar co-pay by the patient.

HMOs arose because people were decrying skyrocking medical costs. Part of the cost controlling strategem for the HMO is to pay only for routine treatment of diseases not cutting edge technology. People cried foul. It turns out that, in reality, people don't want lower medical costs but want cutting edge (not merely suitable) treatment and someone else to foot the bill.

[Stormin Norman]

Good post, Solzhenitsyn. I can see we have another friend of freedom on this site to aid in the fight against evil. I also like your quote. The Road to serfdom was an excellent read, and could serve these hippies well.