Violent Revolution in Today's Society

[Vageli]

I have been sitting back for far too long, watching the current sorry state of our country only get worse and worse (I reside in the USA). I have been thinking for some time now that violent revolution is the only option now. Sit ins, walk outs, all are meaningless to the pigs at the helm of the ship, steering us right into the icebergs of economic destruction. What are your thoughts on the subject of a non-peaceful alternative to revolution and do you think it could be feasible in a modern day America. I have thought long and hard about this and I have some ideas (at least to start a revolution locally).

Also please note that by violent revolution I don't necessarily mean blood will be shed. More along the lines of destruction of infrastructure to bring bureaucracy to its knees. I know this sounds radical, but hey, this isn't revleft for no reason and I thought you guys here would be best to guide me in my ideas.

[Organic Revolution]

Moved to practice.

[Dust Bunnies]

We'd need more unity and more numbers, we'd no doubt be arrested and our sacrifice would be covered up by the United Corporations of America's news. At the moment its not feasible, but if we can unite and get numbers, arms, tactics then its possible but if not... your just screwing up your life. To be honest I'm fleeing to a Socialist country and waiting it out there and watch it from there, leave the Capitalists to die, let them bathe in their propaganda, lets see what lies do for them now.

[Vageli]

Do you want to help me organize? I'm willing to recruit others with you, comrade.

[#FF0000]

More organization always helps. The biggest problem I see with Leftism today is that most of the bigger groups and organizations are in-touch with the working class. The prattle on about single boring issues and deal almost exclusively with students and not the rest of the working class, or they prattle on about boring single issues and talk about dead Russians incessantly.

[Vageli]

Well I want to talk about revolution in the here and now; not some pipe dream to happen ten years down the road, but something they can see, hear, and take part in.

[Kronos]

Vageli, what state are you in?

And how many people do you know, so far, who are interested in what you speak of?

[welshboy]

More along the lines of destruction of infrastructure to bring bureaucracy to its knees. I know this sounds radical,
Because we obviously won't need infrastructure after you kick the revolution off. Seriously this kind of thing doesn't work without mass public support.

[[email protected]]

A revolution within the stronghold of capitlism sounds like a honorable but dangerous act and certainly stimulate marxist revolutions all over the world.

[ellipsis]

I have made a similar call to action on RevLeft (http://www.revleft.com/vb/self-defense-training-t68847/index.html) and my blog, as I would love to provide fire arm instruction to like-minded people. Alas I received no response. If you can't make it to VT, check out my blog linked in my signature.

[Vageli]

To start, I apologize for my absence, I've been without a computer for about a week.


Because we obviously won't need infrastructure after you kick the revolution off. Seriously this kind of thing doesn't work without mass public support.

Of course we need infrastructure. But by taking out things like electricity, certain roadways, telephone support and the like we can impede the counter-attack from the government/police/military. When I said we need to take out infrastructure I meant cutting off key chokepoints of certain infrastructures (routing stations for telephones, power to police and fire departments, water flooding the streets). The only reason for that aspect is to throw the community into such disarray that they would not be able to recover without (substantial) outside aid. And if similar revolutions were to start globally shortly thereafter, the odds of success are that much increased.

[welshboy]

By cutting out things like electricity, phone lines and roadways you impede ordinary people fleeing fighting.
The military have generators, satellite communications and off road vehicles.

Besides all that if you started doing things like this you would just bring about massive state repression and land yourself or someone else a huge prison sentence. Sorry to be all doom and gloom but you really can't bring about violent revolution without the support of massive amounts of the population. Something the left does not have at this time. As much as I despise Che even he knew this.
I know that sometimes looking around you at the devastation that is caused by capitalism to our families, communities and the world at large it gets really frustrating and downright depressing but we have to work in the here and now building strength in our communities; so that when we eventually get to the tipping point our communities are strong enough in themselves to not succumb to repression but rise up against it.

[BIG BROTHER]

Welshboy pretty much said it. The left in the United States(plz don't call it america, it insults the rest of us who live in this continent) has little support. If anything the farthest people go to is to support welfare capitalism and thats about it.

With mass support I think almost any option even peacefull resistance could be effective. But since we don't have mass support right now, all you could do is educate the people so they realiza there's something better than this, system that we now have.

[welshboy]

Educate and organize ;)

[Ultra-Violence]

^^^
LOTS OF THAT!

On Violent Revolution i believe the day will come Violence is inevitable shit its all ready very violent now what we should be doin instead of blowin shit up. Look at the problems your community has and try to get the community involved and try to change whatever it is thats fucked up.Act localy Think Globaly!

[redwinter]

actually this is a very interesting topic, there's a new pamphlet out that people should check out called Revolution and Communism: A Foundation and Strategic Orientation (http://www.revcom.us/a/128/rev_com_editorial-en.html)

and specifically the parts titled "On the Possibility of Revolution" (http://rwor.org/a/102/possibility-en.html) and "Some Crucial Points of Revolutionary Orientation -- in Opposition to Infantile Posturing and Distortions of Revolution" (http://www.revcom.us/a/128/crucialpoints.html)

and i encourage people to seriously study these materials in relation to the question at hand.

[Vageli]

Welshboy, I understand what you are saying. However, surely you understand my frustration in our current state of affairs. What I am curious of is: why is it that even given the economic black hole we are slowly approaching, know citizens are showing outrage? We should be rioting in the streets, taking back what is ours. Yet everyone stands idly by, waiting for the United States government to grow ever more fascist, and by the time the transformation is complete and the entire population is in outrage, it will be far too late to rebel against the powers that be.

[welshboy]

The frustration you feel is part and parcel of being a revolutionary without a revolution. By focusing ob the negative things in this world you can lose sight of what you are fighting for, jesus christ I sound like a hippy, remember to take stock of all the good shit you see going on as well. Building strength in your workplace, community, school or college can be a difficult task, particularly schools and colleges I think but people can and often do surprise you. You may think everybody is apathetic and somehow complicit in the ongoing trainwreck that is capitalism but the thing is capitalism offers the only visible way of being and does keep most people in the west fed and sheltered. It's not that people aren't dissatisfied it's that it's the path of least resistance that most people take as they just want to get on with their lives and make sure their kids are ok. When push comes to shove though people will fight back. I'm not too up on the recent history of the states but in this country people have pushed back and won (Poll Tax struggle 89-91).
Here's a random event that gave me a buzz. Saturday before last I was manning the Glasgow Anarchist info stall in the centre of the city in the spot where all the different lefty groups congregate to disseminate propaganda. Word went around that the British National Party (far right group)were selling their paper at the top of the street. A group of us from the various stalls marched on up there and gave them hassle. Nothing surprising there though. What happened next though was that passers by stopped and started having a go at them as well, nobody wanted them on the city streets. Not really sure where I'm going with this aside from to say that there is hope and the more effort that goes into building power for the working class the brighter that hope gets.
Hope I didn't sound like too much of a hippy then, I'm off to drink beer and kick trees just to be on the safe side though.

[rampantuprising]

Do you want to help me organize? I'm willing to recruit others with you, comrade.

count me in. contact me directly via revleft

[jaffe]

funposter or dumbposter

[rampantuprising]

funposter or dumbposter

hilarious. very clever

[Kronos]

Vageli, there will be no successful uprisings in the US, since none of them would be formidable enough in size to have an impact. Such an uprising would quickly be subdued by local authorities, and if those authorities failed, the military would get involved. In the end you would have an incident where many revolutionaries died and/or were incarcerated, and a news report that would be designed to make the uprising appear to the public viewers as a terrible atrocity with bad intentions. People at home would watch the report, then get back to their sitcoms and burgers on the grill.

Also, uprisings in other countries would probably fail for similar reasons. If any country experienced an uprising that was a real threat to local government, neighboring countries would support the containment of the uprising with their military power.

Right now is a waiting period. What will bring about revolution will be the inevitable collapse of economy, which will instigate major political changes in government. So a revolution will not be violent....but a long drawn out series of "economic enlightenments", where the working class and bourgeois class will finally submit to the inevitability of global socialism. I doubt that my generation, yours, or the generation following ours will experience this revolution. I believe that one of three things will happen within the next one hundred years: there will be a totalitarian state declared in all countries, a gradual political metamorphosis into socialism, or a catastrophe which will extend over the entire planet, caused either by nuclear war or natural disaster.

I don't mean to sound discouraging, but I would want you to be prepared for the worst, and accept that it is very likely that the earth and its people never get their shit together. We may have to chalk this one up as a loss.

That aside, I absolutely support any anarchic or criminal activity against the bourgeois and its ruling class institutions. While there will be no global revolution, revolutionaries should still take great pleasure in revenge and attempts to liberate and/or assist the working classes. I don't know about you, but in my fifteen years of doing construction, I have witnessed and experienced enough lies and hypocrisy committed by the bourgeois I have worked for, to keep me occupied for three life times in getting revenge. The system has not once served justice to compensate me or my fellow workers for the grief and inconvenience we have suffered from the capitalist's lies, and the system has therefore forfeited its right to authority. I, we, are the law now. "Justice" has lost its chance. I have seen workers being treated like dogs by bourgeois parasites I would hang by their own entrails if I could get away with it. These workers have been cheated, abused, disrespected, mocked, and humiliated....and they do nothing but hang their heads, these backward workers with their useless faith in God. This is why they allow themselves to be abused. I know better. There is no heaven, there is no God. I am infuriated so much that I could quite literally devote the remainder of my life to criminal activity. If God does not exist to redeem our struggle.....then EVERYBODY struggles equally. I will see to it that the bourgeois get a taste of that struggle.

Now then, I am willing to meet, organize, study, and work with any of you who are interested in achieving what revolutionary activity is possible given the conditions we are in. I have many ideas, plans, and tactical strategies which I will not post on the internet for obvious reasons. Resourcefully, I have two vehicles which are fully operational- a four-wheel drive truck and a vanagon westfalia camper...fully loaded. In this respect I am capable of transporting and "housing", comfortably, a minimum of six people if such people wish to remain transient and on the move....which would be the ideal setting. Alternatively, we could remain in a city long enough for us to work and combine our money. We would then decide what the next move would be- where we would go and what we would do, etc.

I also have interests in doing volunteer work in Mexico. I have researched the country and fallen in love with it. It is a very cheap place to live, and beautiful as well. Of course this would be a decision we all would make.

If any of your are serious about meeting and working together, let's get down to it. There is much to discuss.

[Vageli]

Kronos (great username by the way),
From your writing I gather you have much wisdom to back up your words. Your statement that the media would do nothing more than spin it negatively for the masses seems like a very likely situation, and one I had previously not given thought to.

The fact remains (and you have mentioned this yourself) that there will probably not be revolution for many years to come. But in say 100 years, maybe they too will think "We should wait until the time is right", all the while having the basic rights that every human should be born with taken away. What if, for example, the revolutionaries in colonial America had thought to sit and wait for conditions to be right for their uprising? I do not mean to disparage your comments, so please do not take it that way. Your thoughts on the matter are very interesting to me and I only seek to have an intelligent discourse on the matter.

You mentioned small acts that can have an effect on the capitalist bourgeoise but I would also like to mention that taken money from one capitalist means that it will land in another's pocket. For example, say a house of a prominent businessman were to burn down. It would be covered by insurance, builders would be needed to construct a new one, etc. All of that costs money which would just end up in the hands of other capitalist pigs.

I am interested in your thoughts of these acts though, because I would like to aid the cause (obviously, from this thread). Your free roaming idea also seems interesting, however the first question that comes to mind would be funds, and maintaining the funds necessary not only for life, but for our crusades as well. Thank you for your very informed post.


Cheers.

[Vageli]

funposter or dumbposter
Don't really know what you meant by that, jaffe. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[Kronos]

I do not mean to disparage your commentsNo offense taken. I think an uprising is very risky, and without the proper calculations, they can be disastrous. The modern world is much different, especially regarding technologies. I would say confidently that an uprising would be overwhelmed by defensive forces and quarantined until it was over. Military powers would have no trouble dealing with even a thousand man uprising. I think only in underdeveloped countries would an uprising have an effect....but as I said earlier, neighboring countries would provide military aid to subdue it. Now, synchronizing several uprisings is a different story. This, however, is far more difficult to organize. If you could get me a meeting with Chinese and Russian ambassadors....I might be able to work something out. Just kidding.....but not really.


the first question that comes to mind would be funds, and maintaining the funds necessary not only for life, but for our crusades as well.I am a master carpenter and will average from $15 to $20 per hour if I work. I have no trouble getting a job in any city....as there is residential construction everywhere and hiring is very informal. For those who don't have trade skills, there are temp-work services in just about every city, but the pay scale is around $8 per hour. I can teach anyone my trade, making them worth at least $14 per hour in a couple months....if they pay attention and learn quickly.

But living on the road is a different lifestyle which you have to acquire a tolerance for. I personally love it and have been homeless for over a year now.

Another revolutionary activity I wanted to mention, which is nonviolent and noncriminal, is debating. I have sparked debates in coffee-shops and university campuses that were very impressive, as far as the amount of people who took interest. I want to audit and participate in lectures at universities, where there are many students present. If I could get into a philosophy or economics class....I could manipulate the course of the class into Marxist ideas.

Regarding the criminal activity...yes, it is almost a futile effort. But the point is to make life for the capitalist a great headache and inconvenience. There are many ways to do this...and there are many ways to redistribute wealth among the lower classes....but I don't want to talk to much about this on the net.

[cappin]

To the communist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vg5clgDAGU
(insider joke to those who are lost)

[welshboy]

funposter or dumbposter
?

[joe_the_red]

Simply... I feel that violence is necessary and inevitable for the revolution, because the capitalist-fascist-imperialist pigs don't care about what the people want, they don't care how many petitions you write up, how many people starve to death in protests, or how many referendums the people are able to get through. All they have to do is speak of national security and declare martial law, forcing you to conform. Without violent resistance, nothing will change. The capitalist pigs deserve to be lined up against a wall anyway. -Joe

[Vageli]

Kronos: By what means would you be more comfortable communicating? Perhaps we could set up an encrypted communications channel or something of the like?

Joe: Sadly, though I am of a peaceful disposition, I have no choice but to agree with you. I have long wondered if other means such as peaceful assembly, demonstration, and the like could be used as alternatives..but sadly, as we've mentioned, the capitalists don't quite care one way or the other about us and surely since they are in control of the media their spin would be applied to even a peaceful domestic insurrection. Perhaps insurrection wasn't the proper term to use coupled with "peaceful" but you can see my point.

[Kronos]

By what means would you be more comfortable communicating?Casual conversation is fine on the net, but "business" must be handled in person. As a rule I don't trust anyone on the net, as I have had several bad experiences at other forums and on the web in general. Roughly a year and a half ago I was being stalked by a person/group I suspect "found" me via the internet. I was being followed by the same cars, had suspicious people taking pictures of me, e-mails were hacked into, the list goes on. On one occasion, before I left the house I was living at, a suspicious person dressed in what looked like black swat gear was dropped off in front of the house at four in the morning. He quickly jumped out of the car, and the car sped off. I saw him run around the house into the back yard, through the window. The next night I sat on the roof undetected with my digital camera and recorded footage of the same person (I assume) who came back at the same morning hour. I have many theories as to who he was and what he was doing, but those aren't important now. I would assume that the stalking was being conducted by either the FBI or CIA, or a private cult of some sort. They could be religious nuts, satanists, homosexuals, nazis....who the fuck knows, but I have certainly gained a fan base on the internet....so much that members from old forums I participated at follow me around to other sites. Strange things happen man. Here is something strange, but which I consider coincidence: the record at Revleft.com for "most people active" was Jan 14th, which is my birthday. A new record was set on April 14th, which was the day I registered. If there is any significance to these events....I just want to say that I AM NOT the chosen one, not the alpha and omega, not the daemon of Vladimir Lenin or Che Guevara (although that would be far out) or anything like that. I am just a working man with a mind like a razor and a body of steel.

...

Anyway at this point I don't trust anyone I can't see and have at arms reach. People will not play games with me if I can reach them....that is for certain. On the net though....obsessive cowards and fanatics rule the day.

If you have any questions let me know. Casual conversation is fine. Chat a little bit, get to know each other. At worst, we might just end up as friends who sit around playing x-box all day. My problem is I can't be friends with anyone who isn't a marxist. I almost have a sociopathic hatred toward consumers....especially american consumers. I have got to get the fuck out of this cesspool someday soon.

[Vageli]

Wow..That was one hell of a story. I'm sorry you had to go through such things but now I clearly understand your position fully in terms of electronic communication.


I just want to say that I AM NOT the chosen one, not the alpha and omega, not the daemon of Vladimir Lenin or Che Guevara (although that would be far out) or anything like that. I am just a working man with a mind like a razor and a body of steel.

And what, exactly, is the difference between you and Lenin? I mean, they too were just ordinary people with a heart for the cause and a mind to support it. Don't sell yourself short, comrade.


My problem is I can't be friends with anyone who isn't a marxist. I almost have a sociopathic hatred toward consumers....especially american consumers. I have got to get the fuck out of this cesspool someday soon.

Well I'm not strictly Marxist in nature, I find myself leaning towards somewhere near Communism and Anarcho-Syndicalism. And I understand your hatred for the whole Consumerist society that is quickly infecting all of not only America, but most of the civilized world as well.

If anything, besides the bullshit, maybe we could discuss subversion tactics of the media. I mean, protest isn't illegal..yet.:unsure:

[Kronos]

And what, exactly, is the difference between you and Lenin?

Lenin is faaaaaaaaar more educated than myself.


Don't sell yourself short, comrade.

No worries man. I'm full of myself. I make Narcissus look like a manic depressant. However, I know who my superiors are.

[Vageli]

Haha well keep in mind, all of the greatest revolutionaries to ever be all started out as babies. It only takes one human being to make a difference, be it gathering a following and starting revolution or otherwise.

[joe_the_red]

I personally find that coincidence is just a bit overrated, there may be coincidences in things, but I can look back on my life, all of the good and bad events that have happened to me, all of them have brought me to the point that I am at now, if some of those key events, especially the negative ones, did not happen, I might still be a brainwashed capitalist slave. I would not change one ounce of past. The fact of the matter is, we shouldn't compare ourselves to historic figures or try to live the past much at all, if at all. I feel completely that we should study the past, and emulate the great leaders, but we are our own, individual selves, and should be happy for that. Nobody else is like each of us, and that is the heart of the revolution, each of us is entitled to the same freedom, opportunities and happiness as each other, each of us is entitled to be ourselves, not some conformist working machine as the capitalist pigs want us to be. We cannot put ourselves down, that is the capitalists' propaganda speaking, when we look down on ourselves as "one insignificant person". In order for our cause to succeed, we must first believe it can. Each and every man and woman in this cause is one more that we have that the enemy does not. -Joe

[Sam_b]

This might be the most ridiculous plan ever formulated. Ever.

[Sam_b]

Strange things happen man. Here is something strange, but which I consider coincidence: the record at Revleft.com for "most people active" was Jan 14th, which is my birthday. A new record was set on April 14th, which was the day I registered.

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

[Kronos]

Your actions are illogical, captain.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/SpockVulcan.jpg

[Vageli]

This might be the most ridiculous plan ever formulated. Ever.
How would you go about a revolution in today's society? I don't mean to sound ornery but I am legitimately curious. Maybe you could contribute some ideas or offer some improvement? As opposed to just outright rejecting a plan without any basis.

[Sam_b]

Oh, I don't know, by trying to build class conciousness instead of going around the US in a camper van?

[Kronos]

Well played, Sammy.

What if I promised to pass out leaflets or something? Hey man, the manifesto was twenty-nine pages, and look what it started. Surely I could match it.

[Kronos]

...and it's not just a camper van.

It is the 1984 Vanagon Westfalia Wolfsburg Edition, in near mint condition.

[Sam_b]

I do apologise if I am coming over as hostile but I have real problems with people doing this sort of action (this whole 'romantic' idea of going around the country in some sort of vehicle and practicing 'tactics for the revolution' and whatlike).

[Kronos]

I do apologise if I am coming over as hostileNo, no apologies. I love the hostility. It is honest. I get paranoid when people are polite to me.

Sam, I really don't know what else to do. Since I can't recruit five hundred men, or come up with five hundred rifles, I have to create a sort of microcosmic version of a revolution. I am not "going back" to my middle class world of forty hour work weeks and electric bills and rent and frozen dinners and stupid shit on TV. I have to either become a modern day Robin Hood vigilante, or leave this country and do volunteer work. Now I can do the internet deal where I roam around forums spreading the gospel of Marx, but really nobody wants to hear it but you guys....and you guys have already covered it. What I need is a spot on national TV, or a podium in front of thousands of people, where I can work my magic.

Clearly none of this will ever happen, so I will continue to roam the world with no goals in mind. I hope to become an alcoholic very soon, if I can ever acquire a taste for alcohol.

[joe_the_red]

8:02am
"Yay, we now have 11 people! Yay!" They draw up their posters saying 'Equal rights for the working class' adding all sorts of glitter and using pretty, shining paper, so they'll get noticed. They go and march to their protest area. They chant in unison "No more Capitalism, we want equality", and then the police riot team shows up and bashes their skulls in, protest over.

Evening News
"And in news today, there was a protest that started out peaceful, and ended in tragedy. Our sources tell us that the protesters started throwing rocks at businessmen and police and that one of them then drew a gun and police were forced to deal with the problem. Nine protestors were hospitalised and two killed. Everyone is sad.... In other news Brittany Spears did something else really crazy, stay tuned after the commercial break to find out just what it was this time!"

The Next Morning
The person in charge of the Media company goes and cashes his check from the big business owners that have the government and media on their payroll.

One More Day Later
Nobody remembers the protestors who were beaten.

Granted, this is just exaggerated humour, but you're going to get nowhere without eventually taking up arms against these imperialist scumbags. They don't care about your wants, they don't care if you starve yourself in protest, they don't care if you get someone into congress or parliament or even if you get a bill or referendum or statement through, they'll just claim it's "unconstitutional". If you protest, they'll disperse you when you start getting successful. If you tell them you have a right, they'll use violence, and if you don't start fighting back some time, you will have to go through with what they want you to do. Then they will ban meetings and use martial law to keep you under control, and you'll go through with it, because you don't think you that violence is necessary. And those capitalist pigs will laugh when they hear the news that they paid the media to post, making it look like you were a bunch of crazies, and violent "revolutionaries" whether or not you were. Tell me... how are you going to deal with that? I'm pretty damn curious myself as to what your 'strategy' would be. If you're going to be so critical of using violence, then please, enlighten me, what would you do besides say "Darn, they won't listen." -Joe

[joe_the_red]

I don't mean to sound as though I'm completely dismissing others' ideas. I recognise that not everyone can be violent. I am merely saying that I completely and totally disagree with the idea that we can bring communism about through nothing but peaceful means. Is what I have said untrue? Do the capitalists care what we think, do they care whether or not we get legislation through? If I'm wrong, explain it to me. Show me. I am just frustrated with all of the efforts and progress that people make, which is put down violently by the capitalist-fascist-imperialist regimes. The imperialist reaction is blatant disregard for the successful, peaceful movements. I just feel that even if one does not want to be violent, we should all at least recognise that it is going to be necessary at some point in time if we want to succeed. I cannot force anyone on the same opinion as me nor will I try. But these are my thoughts, and I will try my best to show they are valid, even if I must use humourous sarcasm. -Joe

[Harrycombs]

Sorry to be cynical, but the revolution isn't going to come anytime soon. If it becomes violent to early, then the capitalists will use it against us as propaganda. People will fear us and side with the capitalists. Until a very large amount of the population becomes aware of the world, which they probably wont because of the media, it will be impossible for there to be a revolution of any kind here. Finding a way to wake the masses is the first thing that needs to happen.

Perhaps if a communist revolution took place in some other country, Americans would become more aware of the movement.

Also, if people just start fighting with out organizing and setting up a socialist government that will keep order after the revolution, everything will be disorganized and fall apart and a civil war will break out and everything will go to hell.

In other words, despite how much I would love to see the revolution, I don't think its realistic to believe it will come soon (or maybe even in our life times), so it would be best to prepare for it by spreading the message of communism so we would actually have some support and not get crushed with in days...

[Vageli]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would rather die fighting than live under the tyranny of Capitalism. All anyone ever says is that it's not the time. But if not today, then when? Every journey starts with one step, and I say it's high time that we walked a couple of miles.

[welshboy]

o
m
g
I'm actually in agreement with someone who's tagline reads 'socialist workers party = win'
In order to fight and win a revolution you need the mass of the population organized, not a wee vanguard of folk blatting about in a camper van.
If you want to learn about succesful tactics look at past campaigns and learn from their successes and failures. Off the top of my head I would recommend learning a bit about the anti-poll tax campaign in the UK in the late 80's early 90's. that was a massive campaign that had revolutionary potential. It involved millions of people. That's the important thing here is that it was MILLIONS of people who were involved not just some wee clique. It didn't live up to its revolutionary potential but that's another matter, it was still wildly successful in that it managed to politicize and organize a sizeable proportion of the population.
Also the uprising in Argentina in 2002/3 or the revolt in Albania in the 90's.

[joe_the_red]

Organisation is essential for the movement to work, but it is true, we cannot wait and say that now isn't the time for the revolution. We cannot wait for everyone to jump on board, because the capitalists are investing a lot of their money in keeping people ignorant and occupied with entertainment. We need to be organised, we need to plan things, but we need to be doing something. We cannot continue to wait around and hope we get more people. Things we need to be actively engaged in doing would be things like getting information out. Setting up booths, creating pamphlets, make our positions heard at events and the such... but we must resist. We can protest things, that's not a bad idea... but we have to be prepared to act. We have to constantly be making preparations for the revolution by arming ourselves, training ourselves, and coming up with plans, strategies, and tactics. We need to be ready for whatever and whenever we are able to do things, be it today, tomorrow, next weekend, next month.... we need to ready ourselves, and always be. Now IS the right time to act. The capitalists are not resting, they continue to work to better their positions in this struggle. We can't wait for more people, we need to do what we can when we can, and the when is now, and it's always. It's understandable that some are not currently in positions to act, but some of us are, and those of us that are NEED to start organising now if we haven't already, and we need to DO something. The capitalists are weaving themselves into everything, into all organisations with a say in government and economics, and we need to counter that. We need to sew ourselves in, as well, in addition to ripping the strings of capitalism out, and tossing them into the fire. All that this movement is asking for is whatever you can do, at every opportunity. But violent resistance is necessary, there's no other way. -Joe

[Sam_b]

without eventually taking up arms against these imperialist scumbags

Jesus. All this 'die fighting' bollocks for the struggle before class consciousness or a revolutionary vangurd has even been achieved. This whole romanticism of taking up a gun against the capitalist state is absolutely impossible and ridiculous to think about now. Very, very far off, despite what these 'revolutionary tactics' blogs are saying.

This is the lazy way out. Only struggle can be achieved by working with the class to build consciousness and organising in trade unions. Nothing less.

[Coggeh]

Jesus. All this 'die fighting' bollocks for the struggle before class consciousness or a revolutionary vangurd has even been achieved. This whole romanticism of taking up a gun against the capitalist state is absolutely impossible and ridiculous to think about now. Very, very far off, despite what these 'revolutionary tactics' blogs are saying.

This is the lazy way out. Only struggle can be achieved by working with the class to build consciousness and organizing in trade unions. Nothing less.
Their must be a mass political workers movement organized along socialist lines with the trade unions capable of fighting for socialism but getting leadership of the trade unions etc and betraying workers like your leadership have done is nothing less than reactionary .

[Vageli]

o
m
g
I'm actually in agreement with someone who's tagline reads 'socialist workers party = win'
In order to fight and win a revolution you need the mass of the population organized, not a wee vanguard of folk blatting about in a camper van.
If you want to learn about succesful tactics look at past campaigns and learn from their successes and failures. Off the top of my head I would recommend learning a bit about the anti-poll tax campaign in the UK in the late 80's early 90's. that was a massive campaign that had revolutionary potential. It involved millions of people. That's the important thing here is that it was MILLIONS of people who were involved not just some wee clique. It didn't live up to its revolutionary potential but that's another matter, it was still wildly successful in that it managed to politicize and organize a sizeable proportion of the population.
Also the uprising in Argentina in 2002/3 or the revolt in Albania in the 90's.
I understand what you are saying but would also like to add that both can be done at the same time. We can spread the word of our cause while also backing up our words with actions that the capitalists won't be able to hide from the public. I agree with organizing our comrades but what better incentive to join than seeing the very instruments of capitalism destroyed or damaged? Words without action are useless. Action without words is ignorance.

[Sam_b]

I'm actually in agreement with someone who's tagline reads 'socialist workers party = win'


YASSSS! ;)


but what better incentive to join than seeing the very instruments of capitalism destroyed or damaged?

Sorry, but no. Unless you're talking of strikes, pickets and targeted direct action. All that fighting some sort of guerilla insurgency on the back of a truck is going to do is cause the capitalists to clamp down further on the working class.


but getting leadership of the trade unions etc and betraying workers like your leadership have done is nothing less than reactionary

What about your Scottish comrades arguing against an open-borders immigration policy as you 'have to consider the legitimate fears of the white working class'? Is that not reactionary in the slighest?

I wish the CWI would have better things to do than just slander the SWP, like for example, organising the class. For an Irish example, your utter refusal to work with the SWP in elections was the absolute hight of sectarianism. Read your faction's 'Response to the politics of the SWP in Ireland' and laugh at your contradictions.

[Vageli]

Sorry, but no. Unless you're talking of strikes, pickets and targeted direct action. All that fighting some sort of guerilla insurgency on the back of a truck is going to do is cause the capitalists to clamp down further on the working class.

I apologize for not making myself clear :blushing:. I meant that there would be targeted direct action, as you mentioned, and not guerrilla warfare erupting in the streets.

Something along the lines of the Squamish Five (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squamish_Five)

[Sam_b]

I apologize for not making myself clear :blushing:. I meant that there would be targeted direct action, as you mentioned, and not guerrilla warfare erupting in the streets.

Something along the lines of the Squamish Five (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squamish_Five)

"They began training with stolen weapons in a deserted area north of Vancouver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver%2C_British_Columbia), and stole a large cache of dynamite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite) used for construction work. They supported themselves through various forms of fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud) and theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft)."

Such action in my view is unproductive and does nothing to advance the class whatsoever. We don't target things because they are capitalist, we work to overthrow the entire capitalist system through the mass action of the working class. This does nothing at all to further this goal.

[Vageli]

"They began training with stolen weapons in a deserted area north of Vancouver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver%2C_British_Columbia), and stole a large cache of dynamite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite) used for construction work. They supported themselves through various forms of fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud) and theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft)."

Such action in my view is unproductive and does nothing to advance the class whatsoever. We don't target things because they are capitalist, we work to overthrow the entire capitalist system through the mass action of the working class. This does nothing at all to further this goal.

I do not condone the theft and fraud but I stand by my notion that a blown up building speaks volumes to the populace and can only aid in bringing others to our side. If presented with two groups: one that only hands out pamphlets and preaches to passerby in the street, and the other that passes out pamphlets and shows initiative by standing by and acting on the words contained therein, I would certainly choose the latter.

[Sam_b]

I stand by my notion that a blown up building speaks volumes to the populace and can only aid in bringing others to our side

Al-Queda blows up the WTC. This is a terrorist act, and is widely condemned, allowing a platform for the invasion of Afghanistan.

Praytell, how is your action any different? Just because its from the left doesn't stop it being terrorism - and thats what it is. Such actions were condemned by Trotsky and Lenin (though he toyed with the idea briefly) as not aiding the building of class consciousness.


and shows initiative by standing by and acting on the words contained therein

I am against capitalism. Do I boycott it? No, because its near-impossible.

[LeftnProud]

You are a fucking hippy - you twat lol - get over it!

[LeftnProud]

I love money - am I a capitalist?

[Sam_b]

You are a fucking hippy

Don't get me wrong, i'm no pacifist 'lol'.

[LeftnProud]

you fucking weirdo's!

pmsl

[LeftnProud]

Let's all just vote BNP and accept we are fucked up hippies and in need of help!

[LeftnProud]

what the fuck are you lot on - seriously?

[LeftnProud]

revolution? scractching cars lol - get a fucking grip people - this is the real world!

[LeftnProud]

ooh ooh I scratched a BNP car - i'm a fucking rebel revolutionary! Have a word and face facts - you are insignificant and a total freak!

[Vageli]

Al-Queda blows up the WTC. This is a terrorist act, and is widely condemned, allowing a platform for the invasion of Afghanistan.

Praytell, how is your action any different? Just because its from the left doesn't stop it being terrorism - and thats what it is. Such actions were condemned by Trotsky and Lenin (though he toyed with the idea briefly) as not aiding the building of class consciousness.



I am against capitalism. Do I boycott it? No, because its near-impossible.

I think it's safe to say that the destruction of the WTC has had the effect of more people joining the "terrorist" cause, wouldn't you say?

And the only difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is public support. In Afghanistan I'm sure Osama Bin Laden is not labeled as a terrorist.

[LeftnProud]

Are you wet farts deleting my posts lol?

[LeftnProud]

fucking pansies - and there was me thinking you woosies were "hardcore" lol

[LeftnProud]

about as "hard" as my cock when i shag your mum lol

[LeftnProud]

which, for the record, is as floppy as fuck lol

[LeftnProud]

not quite as floppy as your mums tits when i take her from behind though!

[Kami]

And the only difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is public support. In Afghanistan I'm sure Osama Bin Laden is not labeled as a terrorist.
The whole "fighting for freedom" aspect is something of a requirement. Religious Martyrdom certainly does not fill that.

And I'm fairly sure that he is labelled as a terrorist in Afghanistan. They're not all extremists there, y'know?

[LeftnProud]

sorry, my mistake - i meant your Dad's tits!

[LeftnProud]

Kami,

Please humour me - wtf is a junior revolutionary when it's at home?

[LeftnProud]

do you play computer games - is that it?

[LeftnProud]

"God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist"

Prove it you numpty!

[Kami]

"God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist"

Prove it you numpty!
Congratulations, you missed the entire point of my sig, which was an illustration of quite how irrational belief in God is -.-

[LeftnProud]

Who say's it's irrational. What qualification do you have to make such a big bold statement?

[LeftnProud]

Face facts Kami - you done way too much weed boy!

[LeftnProud]

It fucks with your brain mate lol

[Kami]

This is not the place for such a discussion; if you want to ask such a question, post it in the religion subforum of Opposing Ideologies (link (http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-f38/index.html)) and I shall be happy to answer

[LeftnProud]

You fucks are too easy! I thought I may get a challenge here - clearly not. I'll come back once you pass puberty!

LOL

[LeftnProud]

Kami, What's your view on the BNP?

[LeftnProud]

Debate me - don't run away scared!

[LeftnProud]

I have 5 failed GCSE's - Nothing to be scared of!

[LeftnProud]

I do happen to have more "life experience" than most of you doughnuts put together though!

[LeftnProud]

email me at I'[email protected] when you have a clue and can handle a sensible debate! (real email address)!

[Vageli]

Holy shit can someone condemn this guy to OI already? He's spamming this thread with bullshit.

[Sam_b]

I think it's safe to say that the destruction of the WTC has had the effect of more people joining the "terrorist" cause, wouldn't you say?


And how many more working class people have condemned it, eh? Being on the left is not about blowing up things or being some noble revolutionary fighter - it is about being on picket lines at 6am in the morning, freezing your hands off selling newspapers in the city centre, about being part of a committee to organise a protest for worker's rights. There is absolutely no place for heisting a bank in order to fund a training camp for revolutionaries.

Revolution only comes from below, with the self-emancipation of the working class, not a bunch of conspirators labelling themselves as a vanguard and hoping people will join them because they armed themselves and attacked a police station.


And the only difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is public support

This is an important oversight in your argument, and discussing something like this deserves better than widescale generalisations. We don't condemn, for example, Palestinian resistance fighters mortaring an Israeli soldier base - they are part of a national liberation movement against a state that is murdering and oppressing them. We do, however, condemn it if they blow up a bus of civilians (we do, however, understand this comes form a climate of despair imposed on them by Israel).

At the time, Afghanistan was not in a national liberation movement against the United States. 9/11 hit a building of civilians rather than military targets, and if anything CAUSED the necessity of an Afghan liberation movement due to the US invading ther country, which wouldn't have been necessary otherwise.

So, tell me, are you actually going to defend 9/11?

[joe_the_red]

You are obviously living in a dream world if you think that you can bring about communism or socialism through political action and protest alone. The imperialists do NOT care about you or your thoughts and ideas. They won't care if you get someone into "parliament" (a farse in and of itself) or even if you manage to put some sort of legislation through. They will just say something like "it's unconstitutional" or that it violates some law or that it's illegal or some other bullshit. And then they'll pass a law to crack down on the public. They will pass more and more laws that will take away the rights and freedoms of the public. Your protests will be meaningless. If you have too much success, they will send the police, national guard, militia, army, whatever... and they will come and disperse you. If you don't disperse, they WILL use violence. They have no morals, and don't care whether or not you get hurt or killed, and chances are they'll arrest you and/or kill you, at the very least give you a beating. And they'll keep doing this. The people will say that it was terrible, but nothing will get done. They will keep owning you because you won't fight back. As long as they have military control, unchecked, uncontested, they will tell you what to do, and you'll have to do it, because they are in control. Protests and political action won't work, and you have to learn this if you ever want to make any progress. Or not, and your whole life was a waste because nothing got done. You won't be able to convince the capitalists' soldiers, because they are trained to obey. Without armed resistance, this will all be a big damn joke. No I won't apologise for being confrontational about this either. Cheers.-Joe

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You are obviously living in a dream world if you think that you can bring about communism or socialism through political action and protest alone. The imperialists do NOT care about you or your thoughts and ideas. They won't care if you get someone into "parliament" (a farse in and of itself) or even if you manage to put some sort of legislation through. They will just say something like "it's unconstitutional" or that it violates some law or that it's illegal or some other bullshit. And then they'll pass a law to crack down on the public. They will pass more and more laws that will take away the rights and freedoms of the public. Your protests will be meaningless. If you have too much success, they will send the police, national guard, militia, army, whatever... and they will come and disperse you. If you don't disperse, they WILL use violence. They have no morals, and don't care whether or not you get hurt or killed, and chances are they'll arrest you and/or kill you, at the very least give you a beating. And they'll keep doing this. The people will say that it was terrible, but nothing will get done. They will keep owning you because you won't fight back. As long as they have military control, unchecked, uncontested, they will tell you what to do, and you'll have to do it, because they are in control. Protests and political action won't work, and you have to learn this if you ever want to make any progress. Or not, and your whole life was a waste because nothing got done. You won't be able to convince the capitalists' soldiers, because they are trained to obey. Without armed resistance, this will all be a big damn joke. No I won't apologise for being confrontational about this either. Cheers.-Joe

For a stalinist that was quite a good post.

I love the way people just ignore the troll

[joe_the_red]

How did I become pegged as a Stalinist? Stalin did a lot for the people of the Soviet Union, despite what the Western propaganda says (that or Trotskyist propaganda; doesn't 'Trotsky' sound like Americanised Russian slang for taking a poop anyways?). To learn about the Soviet Union, talk to someone who's lived there. That's my thoughts on that matter. But I'm not going to get into that right now. Anyways... focusing on the current matter... The capitalists have too much control. They will not give up their control. They WILL use violence, military force, to keep people down. They will use violence on people in small groups at a time, until the rest of the people give up and go back to work. They will do it in small groups, so that they can preserve as much labor force as possible. That's their way. And if they will use violence, so shall we. -Joe

[Vageli]

At the time, Afghanistan was not in a national liberation movement against the United States. 9/11 hit a building of civilians rather than military targets, and if anything CAUSED the necessity of an Afghan liberation movement due to the US invading ther country, which wouldn't have been necessary otherwise.

So, tell me, are you actually going to defend 9/11?

Of course I do not defend it and when I said that there are people that joined Osama's cause after this action I didn't mean people in the United States. Do you seriously believe that there wasn't an influx of people willing to join his group after seeing what they were capable of?



This is an important oversight in your argument, and discussing something like this deserves better than widescale generalisations. We don't condemn, for example, Palestinian resistance fighters mortaring an Israeli soldier base - they are part of a national liberation movement against a state that is murdering and oppressing them. We do, however, condemn it if they blow up a bus of civilians (we do, however, understand this comes form a climate of despair imposed on them by Israel).

Who exactly are you referring to when you say "we"? I know many that are against the Palestinian bombings be it of an Israeli soldier base or a civilian bus. Furthermore, you are saying you condone such despicable actions in the name of despair from Israel? Well my actions would be from a climate of despair imposed on me by the Capitalists. How is this not the same thing?

I never said people had to die in these direct actions. And I am very against the slaughtering of innocents. There can be destruction without bloodshed.

And as joe the red pointed out, picketing and the like can only go so far. If I was a CEO of NIKE I couldn't care less if you were protesting my company because of the near slave-labor we employ in China; if you won't buy my product, rest assured someone else will. The people in power will only laugh at our failed attempts to cause change through demonstration. You can't ignore direct action.

[Vageli]

You are obviously living in a dream world if you think that you can bring about communism or socialism through political action and protest alone. The imperialists do NOT care about you or your thoughts and ideas. They won't care if you get someone into "parliament" (a farse in and of itself) or even if you manage to put some sort of legislation through. They will just say something like "it's unconstitutional" or that it violates some law or that it's illegal or some other bullshit. And then they'll pass a law to crack down on the public. They will pass more and more laws that will take away the rights and freedoms of the public. Your protests will be meaningless. If you have too much success, they will send the police, national guard, militia, army, whatever... and they will come and disperse you. If you don't disperse, they WILL use violence. They have no morals, and don't care whether or not you get hurt or killed, and chances are they'll arrest you and/or kill you, at the very least give you a beating. And they'll keep doing this. The people will say that it was terrible, but nothing will get done. They will keep owning you because you won't fight back. As long as they have military control, unchecked, uncontested, they will tell you what to do, and you'll have to do it, because they are in control. Protests and political action won't work, and you have to learn this if you ever want to make any progress. Or not, and your whole life was a waste because nothing got done. You won't be able to convince the capitalists' soldiers, because they are trained to obey. Without armed resistance, this will all be a big damn joke. No I won't apologise for being confrontational about this either. Cheers.-Joe

Exactly. How many times have we heard of activists being jailed or higher profile ones being killed? And that's only the ones we know about. I've never seen a government stage a protest; we must use their own tactics against them if we are to see progress.

[joe_the_red]

I think that those opposed to armed resistance have an image of those of us willing to. They must think we are a bunch of punks who just want to pick up a gun and shoot. This is not it at all. We have the right as human beings to defend our rights and freedoms violently, and in fact, we are obligated to do so. These capitalist-fascist-imperialist bastards don't deserve to sit in their luxury palaces built by the exploitation of workers. They will look out their windows at protestors and laugh. They don't have to listen to you, they don't have to do anything, they own the status quo. Protests won't stop their profits, and that's what they care about. Tell me, what will you do when they make protests illegal, punishable by life imprisonment or death? What will you do when they say that your meetings are illegal, punishable by the same? What will you do when everything is illegal except for going to work, buying overpriced food, overpriced medication (which will then become required), and watching television? What will you do then? Sit around and mentally protest these things? That will become the world if we don't take up arms against these slavers. -Joe

[Vageli]

I think that those opposed to armed resistance have an image of those of us willing to. They must think we are a bunch of punks who just want to pick up a gun and shoot. This is not it at all. We have the right as human beings to defend our rights and freedoms violently, and in fact, we are obligated to do so. These capitalist-fascist-imperialist bastards don't deserve to sit in their luxury palaces built by the exploitation of workers. They will look out their windows at protestors and laugh. They don't have to listen to you, they don't have to do anything, they own the status quo. Protests won't stop their profits, and that's what they care about. Tell me, what will you do when they make protests illegal, punishable by life imprisonment or death? What will you do when they say that your meetings are illegal, punishable by the same? What will you do when everything is illegal except for going to work, buying overpriced food, overpriced medication (which will then become required), and watching television? What will you do then? Sit around and mentally protest these things? That will become the world if we don't take up arms against these slavers. -Joe

Just to point out as an example, it is illegal for teachers in the United States to protest. If they can lose that right, I'm sure anyone else can.

And I can't agree more with what you are saying. When you are the status quo, do you really care if even a hundred people protest and do not buy your product? Not when you're selling a million more to everyone else!

[Organic Revolution]

Just to point out as an example, it is illegal for teachers in the United States to protest. If they can lose that right, I'm sure anyone else can.

And I can't agree more with what you are saying. When you are the status quo, do you really care if even a hundred people protest and do not buy your product? Not when you're selling a million more to everyone else!

Teachers do have the right to strike in America, it is written in to most teaching contracts.

[joe_the_red]

I can only hope that these arguments will be convincing to those still deciding their course of action. I am not pig-headed or stubborn, I am an open-minded individual, and if someone can show me an opposing argument with merit, something that can stop the inevitable violence that is to come, please do show me. I really do want to know what can be done that will make it so we do not have to fight. I hate that we must have war in the modern world, ending peoples' lives, people with potential to do great things for humanity, this is a tragedy, and I would love to avoid it at all costs... but the facts speak for themselves, I would not be a proponent of violence unless I thought that there was no other choice.... but comrades, there is no other choice, not if we actually want to win. It is a terrible thing what the capitalist-fascist-imperialist pigs have brought us to... but there is no other way. -Joe

[welshboy]

Actually the image I have of people who go on about violent insurrection is that they are a bunch of kids who are understandably frustrated by the world they live in. tbh most punks I know are more interested in living their lives and having a good time than being involved in violent insurrections.
As I have said before and will probably carry on saying till I bring on arthritis in my fingers is that any attempt at a violent insurrection without massive public support will be crushed swiftly and with far greater violence and technical proficiency than you can imagine.
A revolution will not be brought about by a vanguard of political types but by an extremely organized and angry working class. I agree with you Joe that any form of change through the parliamentary route is doomed to either abject failure or being watered down so much that it would have been better to fail.
Social democrats like the SSP here in Scotland have managed to show how ineffective that route is (oh I can't wait to hear what some folks will think about that).
The work of creating a revolution is hard and long and will take more effort than blowing your arms off whilst fucking about with chemical fertilizer. People at the moment aren't angry or desperate enough to find a revolution desirable; that is why our work at the moment must consist of building working class strength and confidence so that when the shit hits the fan the class has the methods and means of taking control.
Oh and by taking control I mean the class actually taking power for itself not giving it up instantly to a bunch of public school boys and professional revolutionaries who were reading Capital when they should have been getting laid like the rest of us:tongue_smilie:

[Vageli]

Teachers do have the right to strike in America, it is written in to most teaching contracts.
I'm sorry. Only 13 states in the US allow strikes.


Currently, 13 states allow teacher strikes.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-02092008-1485171.html

I didn't research it at first because I know for a fact it is illegal for teachers to strike in the state I live in, New Jersey.

Here is a more thorough evaluation of states concerning teacher strikes:
http://www.stopteacherstrikes.org/StrikeLaws.htm

[Vageli]

Actually the image I have of people who go on about violent insurrection is that they are a bunch of kids who are understandably frustrated by the world they live in. tbh most punks I know are more interested in living their lives and having a good time than being involved in violent insurrections.
As I have said before and will probably carry on saying till I bring on arthritis in my fingers is that any attempt at a violent insurrection without massive public support will be crushed swiftly and with far greater violence and technical proficiency than you can imagine.
A revolution will not be brought about by a vanguard of political types but by an extremely organized and angry working class. I agree with you Joe that any form of change through the parliamentary route is doomed to either abject failure or being watered down so much that it would have been better to fail.
Social democrats like the SSP here in Scotland have managed to show how ineffective that route is (oh I can't wait to hear what some folks will think about that).
The work of creating a revolution is hard and long and will take more effort than blowing your arms off whilst fucking about with chemical fertilizer. People at the moment aren't angry or desperate enough to find a revolution desirable; that is why our work at the moment must consist of building working class strength and confidence so that when the shit hits the fan the class has the methods and means of taking control.
Oh and by taking control I mean the class actually taking power for itself not giving it up instantly to a bunch of public school boys and professional revolutionaries who were reading Capital when they should have been getting laid like the rest of us:tongue_smilie:

I 100% wholeheartedly agree that any insurrection that isn't on a large scale will be put down with terrific and swift force. However, I am not proposing a large scale revolution at the moment. I understand that we need to organize and I think that if people saw buildings blowing up around them in the name of revolution they would be more likely to join the cause because it wouldn't be all about just talk; the actions would prove that we are willing to work and fight for a better life.

[joe_the_red]

While it is true that we do need large-scale support, we can still be doing things now. We have to show the capitalists that we are not accepting their imperialism, and that we are not doing nothing about it. The revolution is now, and we can still do something. I'm not saying to go out and do something stupid, just to be actively engaging in something. We must be working towards our goals, and keeping ourselves strong, organised, and well informed. We can call this the mobilisation phase. -Joe

[Jblack0ut]

Hey Vageli. You posted a message on my thread on a similar subject, but as you are having more success than me, ive moved to post here. Im still working on a plan for revolution, and I will post fairly frequently.

[Coggeh]

What about your Scottish comrades arguing against an open-borders immigration policy as you 'have to consider the legitimate fears of the white working class'? Is that not reactionary in the slighest?

I wish the CWI would have better things to do than just slander the SWP, like for example, organising the class. For an Irish example, your utter refusal to work with the SWP in elections was the absolute hight of sectarianism. Read your faction's 'Response to the politics of the SWP in Ireland' and laugh at your contradictions.I see Jimmy Kelly (SWP member) and leader of the trade union UNITE has got in there big with private health insurance , UNITE has distributed leaflets to all members advertising VHI healthcare and other private companies .The leaflet even has his signature on it ! way to fight for workers rights lads .

I personnally have no repsect for the leadership of the SWP though its rank and file I wouldn't associate with them . Hopefully things haven't got that bad .

[Sam_b]

You are obviously living in a dream world if you think that you can bring about communism or socialism through political action and protest alone. The imperialists do NOT care about you or your thoughts and ideas. They won't care if you get someone into "parliament" (a farse in and of itself) or even if you manage to put some sort of legislation through. They will just say something like "it's unconstitutional" or that it violates some law or that it's illegal or some other bullshit. And then they'll pass a law to crack down on the public. They will pass more and more laws that will take away the rights and freedoms of the public. Your protests will be meaningless. If you have too much success, they will send the police, national guard, militia, army, whatever... and they will come and disperse you. If you don't disperse, they WILL use violence. They have no morals, and don't care whether or not you get hurt or killed, and chances are they'll arrest you and/or kill you, at the very least give you a beating. And they'll keep doing this. The people will say that it was terrible, but nothing will get done. They will keep owning you because you won't fight back. As long as they have military control, unchecked, uncontested, they will tell you what to do, and you'll have to do it, because they are in control. Protests and political action won't work, and you have to learn this if you ever want to make any progress. Or not, and your whole life was a waste because nothing got done. You won't be able to convince the capitalists' soldiers, because they are trained to obey. Without armed resistance, this will all be a big damn joke. No I won't apologise for being confrontational about this either. Cheers.-Joe

Well fucking duh. There is a big difference between reformism and revolution. If you think you're being the vangaurd of the working class by being some great principled guerilla fighter, then you're crazy. If we are ever going to have a revolution (and its a long way off judging by the cadre around here) then it has to be done by widescale class consciousness and the building of forces, not fucking about with balaclavas and dynamite. Right now, this means paper sales, petitions, strikes, protest. Emphatically not rising up against a system that will absolutely decimate you without having the mass of the workers on your side. Revolution comes from BELOW - and that requires building.


Do you seriously believe that there wasn't an influx of people willing to join his group after seeing what they were capable of?

No, I don't. But praytell, how does this lead for mass working class unity and class consciousness? Lets call a spade a spade - its lazy socialism foresaking organisational building.


Who exactly are you referring to when you say "we"?

'We' as in the working class movement.


. Furthermore, you are saying you condone such despicable actions in the name of despair from Israel?

I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. However, I realise what it is a product of.


Well my actions would be from a climate of despair imposed on me by the Capitalists. How is this not the same thing?


Bollocks. I see you sitting at your computer, on the internet. Tell me, are your kids getting sniped at while they sit at their school desks? Do you have no electricity in your home? Has your family forcefully been separated by a wall which was built on your peoples ground? Now tell me if your situation compares to that of the Palestinians, idiot.


And as joe the red pointed out, picketing and the like can only go so far. If I was a CEO of NIKE I couldn't care less if you were protesting my company because of the near slave-labor we employ in China; if you won't buy my product, rest assured someone else will. The people in power will only laugh at our failed attempts to cause change through demonstration. You can't ignore direct action.

You think we picket to communicate messages to CEOs? Or do we do it to defend workers, who in turn build consciousness? Your proposals, i'm sorry, are idiotic, full of failed dreams of dying for socialism with a gun in your hand and have no class politics about them at all. What do you do to build the movement, apart from fetishizing online about training for a revolution?


I can only hope that these arguments will be convincing to those still deciding their course of action

Aye, every proletarian has a computer.


way to fight for workers rights lads

I don't defend his action. Are you going to defend your Scottish comrade's veiled racism at the last Solidarity conference, as I pointed out?

[Coggeh]

I don't defend his action. Are you going to defend your Scottish comrade's veiled racism at the last Solidarity conference, as I pointed out?
Well firstly Solidarity aren't our scottish section of the CWI so i have nothing to defend .

I know you don't support or condone your leaderships decisions because no person who was in anyway genuinely serious about leftism would .

[joe_the_red]

Spreading "consciousness" will get absolutely nothing without armed resistance. As I've stated before, the capitalists don't care, and they WILL use the military to stop you, whether or not you fight back. They will continue taking away your rights, and then give themselves "legal" power to shoot you just for SAYING that you disagree. This is what we're coming to. Go ahead, protest and picket. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do that at all, simply that if we don't take it to the next level, we accomplish nothing, we make a small amount of distance, and get knocked back doubly so. You can "realise" all you want that the capitalists are ruling the world and that everyone deserves to be free and so can everyone else, but that won't change it. Maybe not every person has a computer, but we have people in here living in Belarus, Ukraine, Brasil, U.S., Candada, Ireland, Greece, Germany, Japan, England, Scotland, Wales, Peru... all over the world. I'm spreading this message to somebody, and those somebodies are spreading the message to people in their area. Your pickets and protests are spreading the message to whoever is in your town, or whatever town you are protesting. And maybe you'll say "well if we ALL protest and picket it will spread consciousness all over..." hey, great, you saying that on this forum is spreading that message to everyone that I just spread mine to. Congratulations, you've spread it to just as much people as I have. Can't you see that the capitalist governments don't care about your protest? Can't you see that they have their own propaganda to counter awareness and consciousness? Haven't you heard or read about the protests that ended violently, when government police or military beats or murders the protestors? The capitalist governments do NOT have your best interests in mind, and do not care about you. THEY have control of what's "legal". THEY have control over their militaries, and those militaries that they control will enforce their inhumane "legal" legislations. Just because you understand your positions doesn't mean they will change one bit. Hunger strikes will be suppressed. They will let a large number of people die, either that or beat them until they give way, because not everyone can handle that. Your protests will be met violently by the enemy, and you will not defend yourselves. We are being attacked right now, the war between elitists and common people is going on now. They aren't attacking us with guns, knives, whatever, they're attacking us with bills, laws, and debt. And the guns they do have are pointed at us to make sure that we cooperate. They do not have to do anything different than they're doing. How long have protests and pickets been going on to support the revolution? How long have we been doing this for the rights of laborers and proletarians? How long? How much progress have we made. Look at the world we live in. Our rights are disappearing one by one for the sake of "security"... people are scared, and the government is offering them a way to feel safe, by removing rights so that the "bad guys" that they invented and fund won't hurt you. But now you don't have these rights either. The E.U. is making simply speaking of anything that they could call "terrorism" on the internet illegal and a chargeable crime. And you know what the capitalists' definition of terrorism is don't you? Anything that opposes them, in any way. And you think that we can win without armed resistance. Now, in detail, thoroughly explain to me how. I'm all ears... well, eyes, considering that this is all text. So far, I haven't heard anything convincing in the least bit in reference to protests and pickets bringing about communism and overthrowing the capitalist-fascist-imperialist regimes. -Joe

[Vageli]

Yet again, I find myself agreeing emphatically with joe. I am not against protesting and spreading awareness to the cause but I am also saying that this can happen simultaneously alongside higher levels of aggression towards the system.

@sam_b
I will no longer attempt to engage in any type of intelligent discourse after you have made it clear that you will personally attack me. I thought this was a debate and that we would behave like debaters should, without personal attacks and mockery.

[welshboy]

Go on then, off you go. Get yourself fucking shot. I'm kinda glad it's not just our mob who have to put up with numpties who have infantile fantasies of fighting some kind of fucking guerrilla war. Go get laid, seriously; go find nice guy, girl, goat or whatever floats your boat and work off some of this pent up energy lad.
Well done sam_b for answering sensibly. I can't be arsed anymore. Let him go get himself a life sentence or blow his arms off. i honestly hope this is just macho posturing as I would hate to see a life wasted on crap like joe is chatting.

[Vageli]

Go on then, off you go. Get yourself fucking shot. I'm kinda glad it's not just our mob who have to put up with numpties who have infantile fantasies of fighting some kind of fucking guerrilla war. Go get laid, seriously; go find nice guy, girl, goat or whatever floats your boat and work off some of this pent up energy lad.
Well done sam_b for answering sensibly. I can't be arsed anymore. Let him go get himself a life sentence or blow his arms off. i honestly hope this is just macho posturing as I would hate to see a life wasted on crap like joe is chatting.

It's not like that at all welshboy. Why can't we have both protests and direct action at the same time? I think that protests alone won't get us where we want to go and surely direct action alone will not aid us. But the two combined have the power of spreading awareness as well as building a foundation with which to launch the revolution.

When the enemy makes the laws, they can change them at will. They have jailed and assassinated high profile revolutionaries in the past; what makes you think that couldn't happen today? If we were to garner a large following through protest and peace alone we would be crushed by the system we are trying to reform.

Then again if we blow up buildings willy nilly we will be decimated by that same system. I truly believe the power lies in the combination of the two; spreading the message of our cause through both words and actions.

[welshboy]

A strike is direct action, superglueing the locks of an army recruitment office is direct action, chasing nazis off the streets is direct action,
stopping scabs crossing picket lines is direct action.
What you and joe are talking about is getting yourselves shot and/or pouring loads of energy into a project that is a waste of time and will not help further the cause of revolution or build class strength.
Read a bit about the Angry Brigade in this country. They were an anarchist group who in 1970's in the UK machine gunned the Spanish(?) embassy and blew a load of stuff up incluiding the top of the telecom tower and the house of a notorious property tycoon. All they succeeded in doing was getting long prison sentences and wasting loads of people time who had to run the campaign to support them. The 1970's were a time of massive social upheaval where the left was, compared to today, relatively strong. Actions like that in todays climate would elicit a much stronger reaction from the state and have a massively negative affect on the movement as a whole.

[Sam_b]

Spreading "consciousness" will get absolutely nothing without armed resistance

Armed resistance to capitalism is only effective once class consciousness has developed and a mass of workers can be on side. Just look at the history of socialist struggles - 1917 is textbook to this.


And you think that we can win without armed resistance

I don't think, and have never said that. I don't carry an AK when im out doing my shopping in case 'the nasty capitalists oppress me'. As the working class we are all in the same boat, but its a damn shame that some on here want to adopt lazy, sloppy, un-Marxist politics and think that the development of class consciousness is unnecessary.


I will no longer attempt to engage in any type of intelligent discourse after you have made it clear that you will personally attack me. I thought this was a debate and that we would behave like debaters should, without personal attacks and mockery.

Or the fact that you have no rebuttal to claiming that you are led to blow things up, as you are oppressed by capitalism as much as Palestinians are oppressed by Israel?

And I didn't think debaters would be serious about spreading socialism by blowing up buildings. Sorry, but I don't spread my politics like that. So what are you actually doing to spread socialism? Are you in a party? A union?

[Vageli]

Armed resistance to capitalism is only effective once class consciousness has developed and a mass of workers can be on side. Just look at the history of socialist struggles - 1917 is textbook to this.


I don't think, and have never said that. I don't carry an AK when im out doing my shopping in case 'the nasty capitalists oppress me'. As the working class we are all in the same boat, but its a damn shame that some on here want to adopt lazy, sloppy, un-Marxist politics and think that the development of class consciousness is unnecessary.


Or the fact that you have no rebuttal to claiming that you are led to blow things up, as you are oppressed by capitalism as much as Palestinians are oppressed by Israel?

And I didn't think debaters would be serious about spreading socialism by blowing up buildings. Sorry, but I don't spread my politics like that. So what are you actually doing to spread socialism? Are you in a party? A union?

Never never never did I say the development of class consciousness was unnecessary and if you cared to look at my posts I actually want to benefit from both the development as well as direct action. I am for both of them.

And although you don't have to carry an AK in the streets to protect yourself, it just means it hasn't come down to that yet. The oppression by the capitalists is more subtle; obviously they are not gunning us down in the streets or sniping our children. But when minimum wage can barely support people living on their own, let alone people with families, it's no different than killing our families.

Our despair with the capitalists is obviously different and I did not mean to compare our situation with that of the Palestinians. Surely they are fighting for a great cause but just because our situation is different it does not make our cause any less great.

To answer your question, no I am not in any parties and my job is not unionized however I work to spread class awareness everyday by handing out literature to fellow students on university campus, hoping to give them the knowledge and awareness of our oppression under the capitalists and hopefully giving them the idea that they can do something about our struggle.



A strike is direct action, superglueing the locks of an army recruitment office is direct action, chasing nazis off the streets is direct action,
stopping scabs crossing picket lines is direct action.
Those are not forms of direct action. That is merely civil disobedience, although I agree that a strike would be a form of direct action.

[joe_the_red]

Well, I guess there is just as many fools on the left as there is on the right. Naive people who think that words and protests are going to achieve something, and they'll go right along saying that until it is illegal to say things, too. Then I guess they'll think about it. Capitalists are winning despite your protests and pickets. They are winning because you won't fight back. What are you going to do when their police and soldiers start shooting at you and your picket line? Protest that too? We'll see how far that gets, I suppose. Talk about a wasted life for crap, it's unfortunate to see the people who have devouted their lives to protests and pickets and nothing more, and that no progress has been made. Since the Soviet Union ended, there has been no military force to deter the capitalist-fascist-imperialist military forces. Your protests aren't stopping the capitalists from taking away the rights of the working class, or from draining the world's resources, or from getting fat while so many Africans, Latin Americans, Asians, and the people of the Middle-East starve. I see no results in the world. However, I see that at least Ireland is no longer a part of the British Empire, not officially. The British Imperialist forces are still trying to recclaim it, and the Irish haven't been able to completely oust the Brits. Why? Because some of the Irish gave up fighting for table-scraps. See what ending armed resistance does? The Scots are trying to pass legislation for independence, has it happened? No, because they are not uniting to fight the British Empire. Similar movements exist in Wales, and it's the same story. The Capitalists are willing, because you are not being uncompromising. You make compromises with capitalists, and that leaves a door open. Look at what is happening in Ireland, when the Provos made a compromise. The revolution without armed resistance is a failure of a plan, and you doom the world to eternal slavery under the capitalists. Well, it won't be eternal, because the capitalists will destroy the world, sap it of all of its resources in the pursuit of profit, and then we will all be dead. You won't see it, though, because you've closed your minds. I don't know why, but you absolutely refuse to accept that we're not making progress without fighting back. I don't know if it is cowardice or ignorance or both. Unless we fight back, we've lost already, and might as well head back to our slaves' quarters. Based on what you're saying, you're calling all of those who fought for Irish independence idiots, you're calling all of the Russian revolutionaries idiots, you're calling all those proletarians who fought in the Chinese civil war idiots, because they fought for independence. You're calling Marx an idiot, Engels, Lenin, Che, Castro... you're calling them all idiots, because they stood up to the capitalists and took it to the next level. I don't know how Vageli feels... but every time I hear someone say that people who fight against the capitalists are idiots, every time they say that armed resistance is foolish or stupid, every time they say that they are completely unwilling to support that idea... it feels like a stab of betrayal. It almost makes me feel utterly defeated, like giving up altogether... but there are too many people in the world depending on anyone willing to do whatever is necessary to free them. Unwillingness to fight condemns millions of people to death... billions in fact. Africa, the Middle-East, India, Latin America........ people have nothing. They work all day, every day just so that their families can eat SOMETHING. And many times they can't anyway. You say whatever you want about me, you go right ahead, and say that I'm wasting my time, that I'm just testosterone driven, and a fool. I will still do everything I can for those people. Words without action are just that, words. I'm pretty damn sure that those starving people are conscious of the fact that they are poor and starving. But when you go home after your protest, eat your dinner, watch your favorite television shows, you tell yourself that you did enough to help them, that your pickets and protests have brought us one step closer to stopping their starvation. If that is what you need, go ahead. But you know what? I'm don't feel that your pickets are enough. You can use libel and slander against me all you want. If I have to devote my life alone to this cause, then I will, because I would rather die standing up for myself and these people than compromise one inch of ground for the capitalists to pollute and corrupt. -Joe

[welshboy]

Those are Direct Action.
A sit in or reclaim the streets party is civil disobedience.
You need to read a bit more about what direct action is pal.

[welshboy]

Joe
one word
PARAGRAPHS!

[Vageli]

Those are Direct Action.
A sit in or reclaim the streets party is civil disobedience.
You need to read a bit more about what direct action is pal.
Direct action seeks immediate remedy for perceived ills. Exactly how are you remedying anything by super gluing some locks? So you wasted the time of the people trying to get in the building. They will get in, and they will get back to what they were doing. And rest assured that after that stunt they'll put up cameras this time around to catch the miscreants in the act.



Joe
one word
PARAGRAPHS!

At least welshboy and I agree on one thing :) Joe, you give very good arguments but they are pretty difficult to read. I was actually going to pm you about it but welshboy brought it up. So please, could you break up your text to make it easier on our eyes?:blink:

[welshboy]

Okay so the superglue thing falls more under the umbrella of sabotage but vanguardist nonsense of propaganda by the deed is a load of old codswallop. That'll be why us anarchists gave it up a long, long time ago(not counting the angry brigade).

[joe_the_red]

An effort will be made to break things up into paragraphs. An effort will also be made to end any form of name-calling or personal attacks of character and insults. I expect the same to be done, but will attempt to end it on my part regardless. -Joe

[Vageli]

Okay so the superglue thing falls more under the umbrella of sabotage but vanguardist nonsense of propaganda by the deed is a load of old codswallop. That'll be why us anarchists gave it up a long, long time ago(not counting the angry brigade).

But I am not advocated only action. I want there to be both the spreading of class awareness alongside direct action. Does that not seem better than protest alone, or action alone?

[welshboy]

What is your idea of direct action? Please give me a few examples.

[joe_the_red]

The actions that you have described doing sound more like annoyances than results. Well, this is a discussion forum, and I'm going to stop arguing. I am merely going to pust my thoughts and opinions on what I feel is right.

To put things in short, I feel that we need armed resistance. I feel that without it, we will make no progress, and my evidence is the state the world is in, and what is happening without armed resistance. People are starving. Empires still stand regardless of "international law". People are losing their rights and freedoms because of matters of "security". The capitalists own the media, they own the "legal system", they own the military. They don't care about people, only themselves and money. They are not going to give up their power, regardless of whether or not we know they are corrupt. The more success you get at spreading awareness, the more they will take away your rights to act on it. If you don't fight it, they will use force you to comply.

That is my stance, based on all information presented. I will live my beliefs, and I will act, regardless of what anyone has to say about me, positive or negative. I don't care to be a hero, I don't care to be recognised, I just want to help the impoverished people. And this is the only way I feel that we can achieve this. It will be difficult, it will take time, but it is our only hope.

Good luck to you in spreading awareness. We can only pursue what we believe in. If I die, I am one person. Now I'll do what I can so that I won't have to, I'm not suicidal. There are people in the world that need help. I'll do what I can, whether or not the rest of the world is doing the same. -Joe

[Vageli]

What is your idea of direct action? Please give me a few examples.
Destroying the tires of a McDonald's delivery truck. Freeing animals used for product testing. Using an EMP to destroy all the electronics in an office building (this stuff is real, and not only in movies). Cutting power lines to a company. All of these things I believe would have a direct and noticeable impact.

I would prefer to categorize your statements as civil disobedience not because they are ineffective, because they aren't. I just think that there are more direct forms of direct action, if you will.

[Kropotesta]

So when are you two, Joe and Vageli, gonna launch your guerilla war?

[Vageli]

So when are you two, Joe and Vageli, gonna launch your guerilla war?
As I have said repeatedly throughout this thread, I do not advocate action without words, nor do I advocate words without action. If you are asking because you would like to join in the cause, that's fine. But it seems pretty clear you are mocking us.

[Kropotesta]

As I have said repeatedly throughout this thread, I do not advocate action without words, nor do I advocate words without action. If you are asking because you would like to join in the cause, that's fine. But it seems pretty clear you are mocking us.
Sorry but I lol'd.
Out of curiousity though, not mocking however I can obviously understand if you don't want to answer a question of this nature, where would you get the weapons from? Sorry if this has already been covered.

[Vageli]

Sorry but I lol'd.
Out of curiousity though, not mocking however I can obviously understand if you don't want to answer a question of this nature, where would you get the weapons from? Sorry if this has already been covered.
We can fashion them ourselves or buy them second hand from gun owners.

Note that weapon doesn't necessarily equate to gun.

[joe_the_red]

"War" is already happening.

We are always preparing, action comes when there is opportunity, any and every opportunity.

I can't clarify that more. Sometimes you prepare, sometimes you act.

We can only do what we can do. Hopefully that is an adequate answer to your question.
-Joe

[welshboy]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
Please, please, please read a bit of the history of armed movements.
ffs even arrogant old che would have been telling you to get down with a bit of actual political work rather than fetishizing armed resistance and martyrdom, joe get real guy.
If you didn't live in the states and actually have access to guns and what not I wouldn't be so concerned with the shite you are spouting.
If you try any of this you will only serve to weaken the movement. Look at all the green scare arrests that are happening at the moment and the amount of energy that is being put into defending these people, innocent or not.
If you are too lazy to do proper political work that actually builds a movement capable of wresting control of this planet then fine fuck off and play with you xbox.
If you want to go blowing up shit then get to fuck if you think I am going to show you the slightest bit of solidarity. And don't you dare pull any crap like this and try and claim you are doing it in the name of my fucking class.
Especially after you have had it explained to you so many times that the actions you are condoning are counter productive and will only bring about heavier state repression against the people who actually put in hard fucking work on the ground.

PS Are you a cop Joe?

[Sam_b]

Never never never did I say the development of class consciousness was unnecessary and if you cared to look at my posts I actually want to benefit from both the development as well as direct action. I am for both of them

That was a reponse to Joe's posts about what he deems 'consciousness'.


Naive people who think that words and protests are going to achieve something

Wait a minute Joe....isn't that how the Bolshevik party ended up mobilising the Russian working class?


Since the Soviet Union ended, there has been no military force to deter the capitalist-fascist-imperialist military forces

What, the great union that oppressed the working class?


The Scots are trying to pass legislation for independence, has it happened? No, because they are not uniting to fight the British Empire

I think you'll find thats the SNP government, not the Scottish people.


Destroying the tires of a McDonald's delivery truck. Freeing animals used for product testing. Using an EMP to destroy all the electronics in an office building (this stuff is real, and not only in movies). Cutting power lines to a company. All of these things I believe would have a direct and noticeable impact.

You can't boycott capitalism, and that will not bring down the system. Stuff of this nature is only ever useful when called by the workers themselves, such as the boycott of Coca-Cola.


I work to spread class awareness everyday by handing out literature to fellow students on university campus, hoping to give them the knowledge and awareness of our oppression under the capitalists and hopefully giving them the idea that they can do something about our struggle.


Fantastic to hear. This is the important thing, not trying to build people up for a guerilla insurgency.


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
Please, please, please read a bit of the history of armed movements.

I agree.

[Vageli]

You can't boycott capitalism, and that will not bring down the system. Stuff of this nature is only ever useful when called by the workers themselves, such as the boycott of Coca-Cola.
Of course I agree with you, but those ideas I presented seem like good forms of direct action. For example, stopping a truck from delivering its goods could cost a company to lose money. Alright so it's a little money. But do it a few times and it starts to add up. Same with the other ideas I presented. I 100% agree with Joe that we should take up arms against our oppressors but I remain unsure to if that time is now. There is time for action now, of course. Actions like I mentioned. But getting thrown in jail too early before the real revolution begins would mean sitting on the sidelines when the real changes start happening.

I truly believe that with direct action and increasing awareness we can and will have a revolution within the next couple of decades; even sooner if the state of things stays on the rapid decline it is in now.

[ellipsis]

I posted this on my blog and thought that it seemed pertinent, some some random thoughts on armed political action"

The ELZN or the Zapatistas are known for being the first "post-modern" revolutionary army. This is because while they have guns, they only used them for twelve days in 1994. Since then their arms act merely as a deterrent against outside aggression, i.e. as a means of providing self-determination. Back in their prime, the Black Panther Party in San Francisco took advantage of California's open carry laws and formed armed street patrols to deter acts of police brutality in their neighborhoods. It worked and acts of police brutality against Blacks plummeted.

Some states, such Vermont still have open carry laws permitting your to carry firearms openly as long as you are not on government property, i.e. on the Vermont Statehouse lawn. As such, there is nothing inherently illegal with a band of ski-masked people carrying guns to walk around the streets of their hometown carrying AK-47s. Pointing them at or generally threatening people with them however is illegal. One idea that I had was to establish patrols in my home town to demonstrate that the town and the state of Vermont are more than capable of defending itself against foreign aggression, without the help of the federal government. Thus your band of revolutionaries is replacing and therefor nullifying the federal government in one respect. Providing for the populace where the government has failed is the first step towards establishing your movement as a counter-authority and gaining popular support, as described by Timothy Wickham Crowley.

Another idea is to use the fact that you are armed to bring attention to your cause. Media member will no doubt take interest in you and you must you this opportunity to get your message out. They key to this is having a statement prepared so that you do not look like another "gun nut" (my apologies to the gun nuts who read this). Also do not allow yourselves to become provoked into confrontation. If the police come, which they will remain calm and cooperative, explaining that you are well within your legal and constitutional rights. Have a copy of the open-carry law with you to prove that you are not committing a crime. Again, double and triple check all applicable laws before doing this. For example in Vermont you can have a loaded handgun in your car, but not a loaded rifle or shotgun so you would have to load up your AK or AR once you got to where you plan to demonstrate and then unload them when you leave. This is assuming that you want to keep your guns loaded, which is not necessary as you will not be using them, plus it looks better if you do get arrested for whatever reason.

[Sam_b]

there is nothing inherently illegal with a band of ski-masked people carrying guns to walk around the streets of their hometown carrying AK-47s


One idea that I had was to establish patrols in my home town to demonstrate that the town and the state of Vermont are more than capable of defending itself against foreign aggression, without the help of the federal government.

Or make them think you're crazy.

[Vageli]

I posted this on my blog and thought that it seemed pertinent, some some random thoughts on armed political action"

The ELZN or the Zapatistas are known for being the first "post-modern" revolutionary army. This is because while they have guns, they only used them for twelve days in 1994. Since then their arms act merely as a deterrent against outside aggression, i.e. as a means of providing self-determination. Back in their prime, the Black Panther Party in San Francisco took advantage of California's open carry laws and formed armed street patrols to deter acts of police brutality in their neighborhoods. It worked and acts of police brutality against Blacks plummeted.

Some states, such Vermont still have open carry laws permitting your to carry firearms openly as long as you are not on government property, i.e. on the Vermont Statehouse lawn. As such, there is nothing inherently illegal with a band of ski-masked people carrying guns to walk around the streets of their hometown carrying AK-47s. Pointing them at or generally threatening people with them however is illegal. One idea that I had was to establish patrols in my home town to demonstrate that the town and the state of Vermont are more than capable of defending itself against foreign aggression, without the help of the federal government. Thus your band of revolutionaries is replacing and therefor nullifying the federal government in one respect. Providing for the populace where the government has failed is the first step towards establishing your movement as a counter-authority and gaining popular support, as described by Timothy Wickham Crowley.

Another idea is to use the fact that you are armed to bring attention to your cause. Media member will no doubt take interest in you and you must you this opportunity to get your message out. They key to this is having a statement prepared so that you do not look like another "gun nut" (my apologies to the gun nuts who read this). Also do not allow yourselves to become provoked into confrontation. If the police come, which they will remain calm and cooperative, explaining that you are well within your legal and constitutional rights. Have a copy of the open-carry law with you to prove that you are not committing a crime. Again, double and triple check all applicable laws before doing this. For example in Vermont you can have a loaded handgun in your car, but not a loaded rifle or shotgun so you would have to load up your AK or AR once you got to where you plan to demonstrate and then unload them when you leave. This is assuming that you want to keep your guns loaded, which is not necessary as you will not be using them, plus it looks better if you do get arrested for whatever reason.

I was just wondering where you got the information for gun laws because I was wondering if my state (New Jersey) also had open carry laws.

[welshboy]

Whether or not it is legal to carry a rifle down the street you are surely extremely likely to get shot.
Just maje sure you don't wear a black trenchcoat :p

[Vageli]

Whether or not it is legal to carry a rifle down the street you are surely extremely likely to get shot.
Just maje sure you don't wear a black trenchcoat :p

If it is legal to carry weapons around in the open in your state, I don't see how you can legally be shot if you were wearing a mask or something and walking around not breaking any laws. The funny thing is, dressing as such you would surely be attracting much attention/suspicion but the real people who carry out crimes wouldn't be trying to attract so much unwanted attention.

[Kropotesta]

'patrolling' your home town without any constent from the workers isn't really going to gain any support, just make you look like a complete idiot.

[Vageli]

'patrolling' your home town without any constent from the workers isn't really going to gain any support, just make you look like a complete idiot.
Good thing they can't see your face then :laugh:

And it seemed to work for the Black Panthers. I wasn't seriously entertaining the idea I just think it would be interesting to see the reactions of passerby/law enforcement.

[Kropotesta]

Good thing they can't see your face then :laugh:

And it seemed to work for the Black Panthers. I wasn't seriously entertaining the idea I just think it would be interesting to see the reactions of passerby/law enforcement.
the Black Panthers did alot of groundwork before masqurading about and had a good following before partaking in stunts like this, I'm pretty sure they certainly didn't turn up one day patroling streets!

[Vageli]

the Black Panthers did alot of groundwork before masqurading about and had a good following before partaking in stunts like this, I'm pretty sure they certainly didn't turn up one day patroling streets!
Haha definitely not that would be downright foolish.

[joe_the_red]

1. I'm not a cop. I would think that anyone with deductive reasoning skills would be able to figure that out, but not all of us are so gifted I suppose. Not your fault.
2. I never said that I was going to grab a gun and start shooting people. I'm not stupid. I believe in preparation and organisation.
3. I only play Rugby games on X-box.
4. I spread Marxism through conversation with everyone I know, and not just saying "Hey, I'm a communist, you should be, too, it's great." So... I too spread consciousness and awareness.
5. Protests and pickets have been going on a long time by themselves, it's time to do more.
6. The Russian Revolution still took up arms, so there was still armed resistance too.
7. My area of study is Political and Philosophical, I've been studying it for a long time and will continue to. That's why I believe in this revolution. It will help the people of this world.
8. I have not started any battles or shooting anyone. I am saying that we have to be ready when the time comes, which will be soon. And by soon, I mean the near future, not necessarily a couple of days or anything like that.

Also, little bit of information. All of you in the British Empire, perhaps you've heard about one of your ministers, home secretary Jacqui Smith, upping police activity. One of them just gave police the right to constantly film "troubled youth", harrass them at school and home with regular visits, follow them, and all manner of other fascist things. This minister said that she hopes it will open the door for more legislation that will allow police to "counter" crime before it starts. So it's nice to see that your pickets and protests are having success at stopping the fascist government from taking away peoples' rights. -Joe

[Sam_b]

Also, little bit of information. All of you in the British Empire, perhaps you've heard about one of your ministers, home secretary Jacqui Smith, upping police activity. One of them just gave police the right to constantly film "troubled youth", harrass them at school and home with regular visits, follow them, and all manner of other fascist things. This minister said that she hopes it will open the door for more legislation that will allow police to "counter" crime before it starts. So it's nice to see that your pickets and protests are having success at stopping the fascist government from taking away peoples' rights. -Joe

Selective in the use of facts to try and prove a non-point. What about the Grangemouth strikers last week, who cost their boss £50million in profit? What about the impending strike action by the National Union of Teachers, who have also sided with the Educational Institute of Scotland, andother trade union, to pass motions condemning military recruitment? So, Joe, thats what these 'pickets and protests' have done. Nice one to piss on the achievments of workers.

Is anything better in the US? We know that there are neo-liberal attacks on us, but why? Because we no longer have a mass class conscious society, and thats why we organise in parties and trade unions, and not kid outselves that the revolution is soon and start playing war games. How is it soon, Joe, in the US or UK? I don't see millions of people organising into cooperatives like in Venezuela, I don't see millions in the capital out to defend measures taken by a anti-capitalist president.

So, to be short, give us some evidence without banding stuff like this around. That or stop harming progress by being so dangeorusly naive. I see you as having precious little class politics, its you that needs to be won, not just those you want to recruit to a militia.

[joe_the_red]

I'm not out to piss on achievements. But have you started protesting and picketing this new piece of shit legislation? See, I understand that there is some progress being made in certain areas. It is nice to see a CEO lose a lot of money in a short amount of time, and it is good to see public support of imperialist military campaigns down, and these same campaigns condemned, in fact. I'm not arguing that some progress cannot be made with protest. But look, if you will, at the levels that we've both described. Company boss loses money, military recruitment condemned....... versus police being given more rights to harass the people, opening a door for a fascist police-state. These things NEED attention. I'm not telling you to go get a gun and put a few holes in some fuzzies, but look at this. This is a serious negative step. I'm not saying that we need to band together and start killing, I am saying that we need to start specifically preparing for the revolution. We need to be actively seeking members specifically for that reason. We need to start now, because the more we wait, the less prepared we are when the time comes. We will only achieve our goals when we take up arms, because the capitalist-fascist-imperialist regimes will not allow it to be won with a vote. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not saying "Lets all grab guns right now and start shooting at something". I am saying that we need to be more aggressive with our message spreading. Our speeches need to attack what the government is doing, condemn it, show the people what it is: fascism, and say that we need to support and work for change now, and do whatever it takes to get it. Organisation and preparation are essential. -Joe

[Sam_b]

I am saying that we need to start specifically preparing for the revolution

'The revolution' is absolutely abstract right now. It could take many steps and forms. We currently 'prepare' for this by organising in Trade Unions and organisations.

[joe_the_red]

Armed resistance is a necessary step, and will be required to win. Since the core of this topic is violent revolution, or as I interpret that to be taking up arms for the revolution, I am simply stating that yes, I believe that is necessary and will have to eventually happen or we will never succeed. I am not saying that we shouldn't have Trade Unions or anything like that.-Joe

[welshboy]

Joe, you want to prepare the armed wing of the revolution?
Go join the army, organize in the ranks at the same time as getting yourself all trained up for the glorious day.

[Vageli]

Is anything better in the US? We know that there are neo-liberal attacks on us, but why? Because we no longer have a mass class conscious society, and thats why we organise in parties and trade unions, and not kid outselves that the revolution is soon and start playing war games. How is it soon, Joe, in the US or UK? I don't see millions of people organising into cooperatives like in Venezuela, I don't see millions in the capital out to defend measures taken by a anti-capitalist president.

To be honest, the most recent action that comes to mind was on May Day by the west coast longshoremen in protest of the Iraq War. There's no figures given but I'm sure the damage dealt has been great.

[ellipsis]

'patrolling' your home town without any constent from the workers isn't really going to gain any support, just make you look like a complete idiot.

Well I am a worker and so are my comrades so we consent to it. The part about black ski masks was an extreme used to demonstrate my point. As for spontaneity, I do not propose that this be an isolated act that comes out of no where. The reason why it doesn't make any sense, at least for my area is there is no need for cops in the first place as there is no "street crime." But if there were a broader social/political movement(s) that rejected the federal government and was thus suffering political oppression, then there would be a reason for this kind of quasi-vigilantism.

And if any of you guys have any suggestions on how to carry out non-violent acts of armed resistance, let me know.

[joe_the_red]

There are damn good reasons for violent resistance today. Your British Empire is still occupying the North of Ireland, and not by Irish choice. Imperialist troops still enter the Republic, too. What is to be done about that? Tell them they can't be here? That's been happening a long time, already. If you are Scottish or Welsh, you should be just as angry at all of this as I am. You should be wanting your freedom from the Capitalist imperials. It is the first step towards achieving communism. Maybe you consider yourselves more British than Scots or Welsh, though, which is just what they want. The British Empire is not under threat of foreign imperial occupation. Maybe you have the luxury of letting protests and pickets be enough, but not everyone in the world has such a luxury. I don't claim that where I currently am is of such a threat, but I can at least recognise that some places in this world are. And Ireland is where my people are, and they are under attack by the British Empire. All British imperial soldiers WILL be made to leave Ireland, one way or another. My people will take their freedom, and I will do whatever I can to help that. Maybe the British Empire is not yet ready for armed revolution, maybe neither is the United States ready to start it today, but we all have to work and prepare for that moment. In Ireland, the Revolution is going on right now to rid itself of the British parasite, but because the North is still occupied by those imperialist scumbags, they send their investors to buy up previously Irish-owned companies, so that Irish resources are STILL going to the British Empire. I think that not only should we protest this, we should tear down their stores and take their British capitalist pig owners out back and have them get very friendly with Mr. Armalite. That's how I feel about that. Ireland has been working for a LONG time for independence, and the only progress ever made was at the end of a gun. So, tell me again that there is no need for armed resistance in today's fascist, imperialist owned world. Claiming that there isn't is like spitting on the graves of all of those brave men and women who fought the British to free Ireland, and even to this day there are Unionists and collaborator/traitor political parties in Ireland... making up those who gave up for the table-scraps. It disgusts me. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

Have you got any mates round you/an organisation that you're actively participating in for this armed resistance you're speaking of?

[welshboy]

Why should I consider myself more Welsh than British? Or the other way round for that matter? My user name is denotative of my geographical origin not national affiliation.
Joe, you're American aren't you? What's with the obsession with Irish nationalism?
Let me tell you one thing Joe the revolution is not going on in Ireland right now, what is happening right now is that folk are trying to get on with their lives without a bunch of dipshits blowing folk up because of their accent or which fucking superstition they follow. Fucking hell, it really fucks me off this american obsession with the fuckin RA, they were nationalist fuckwits who were every bit as bad as the fuckin UVF. You are about as Irish as my left fuckin toe, Joe.
Christ I really hope you visit Ireland one day as you are in for one hell of a fucking shock boyo.

[Sam_b]

Well I am a worker and so are my comrades so we consent to it

So what? Are we talking hundreds, thousands? A mass mobilization of the working class?


No, didn't think so.

[hekmatista]

Three words in response to the original post on this thread: Blanquism, Narodism, Weatherman. First organize, comrade. If you do that, the guns (or anything else that proves necessary) will come.

[joe_the_red]

You sound like a fucking imperialist welshboy. The Irish people deserve their freedom from your fucking empire. Sounds like YOU are the cop now. Your fucking fascism has shown through. YOU are the one who doesn't seem to understand. I know plenty of freedom fighters in Ireland who are still working for that freedom. Don't trh to claim otherwise you shitbag. You can downplay them and make all the comments you want on ethnicity, you're just an imperialist ****. I don't know about everyone else, but I personally hope your imperialist ass gets restricted. -Joe

[Sam_b]

The Irish people deserve their freedom from your fucking empire

Now I will shed no tears over the breakup of the United Kingdom (which is no longer an empire), but how are things going to drastically change by favouring one capitalist state over another? The Irish people should have a right to their self-determination if they so wish, but this is unparallel with national liberation movements such as whats going on in Iraq.


Your fucking fascism has shown through

You think its clever to downplay the use of fascism in this way, whilst having absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest it? Tell me Joe, what exactly is this fascism you speak of?


you're just an imperialist ****

Not as much as you're a nationalist. I still haven't seen you have any class politics whatsoever.


but I personally hope your imperialist ass gets restricted.

To be honest, I think you've got a far larger case for restriction, especially with that sectarian and inflammatory tirade you've just treated us to.

[joe_the_red]

Looks like I have the imperialist cops teaming up on me. You sit there and downplay what my people are doing and expect me to take it lightly? Of course you britishers would downplay the Irish, every chance you get. By stating your opposition to the movements in Ireland, you just show your imperialism. And no, the British Empire is not gone, it still owns territories all over the world. That's an empire. Falkland Island, Northern Ireland.... and plenty more of those. You don't give a damn about the Irish. Your words "they deserve to have independence" without doing anything about it mean nothing. You're too busy sitting in safety and comfort, and it seems to me that you think everyone is in such a position. You must be believing all that stupid crap your fascist government media tells you. Don't even talk about the current government administration of Ireland, Fianna Fail is not my party, they're just becomming a bunch of capitalist pricks sitting in British Imperial Parliament, telling the same lies that the rest of the british government is. I support the groups really working for the Irish people. RSF, IRSP, eirigi... groups like that. Maybe you need to become more informed on your empire's actions in Ireland. -Joe

[Sam_b]

You sit there and downplay what my people are doing and expect me to take it lightly?

Well, seeing as i'm in a party that supported the Irish people's armed resistance up until the ceasefire, no.


And no, the British Empire is not gone, it still owns territories all over the world.

Yeah, its called the Commonwealth. Unlike an empire there is no wholly-British autocratic and centralized control. Obviously its still a bad thing though.


You're too busy sitting in safety and comfort

As are you, trying to stir up armed militias via your keyboard. Set up a thread on the Irish Civil War, connollyism and for once actually give some Marxist analysis and I will happily debate you.


Maybe you need to become more informed on your empire's actions in Ireland

As do you if you think its smart supporting sectarian factions like the IRSP.

[Kami]

Looks like I have the imperialist cops teaming up on me. You sit there and downplay what my people are doing and expect me to take it lightly? Of course you britishers would downplay the Irish, every chance you get.
Fuck off. Firstly; you're a nationalist ****. Being British does NOT, I repeat NOT make one an imperialist. Believe it or not, the majority of the British (Britishers?) don't really care about whether we own territories anywhere; that's government stuff. They've not listened to us for quite some time. And, just to point out, unless you're referring to workers in general, a particular nation is no more your people than any other. It's such tribalistic thinking that starts such conflicts.

By stating your opposition to the movements in Ireland, you just show your imperialism.
Wrong. He shows his opposition to nationalist movements. Perticuarly those that target the people of the nation commiting the wrong, like the thrice-damned IRA.

And no, the British Empire is not gone, it still owns territories all over the world. That's an empire. Falkland Island, Northern Ireland.... and plenty more of those.
Its existance doesn't really matter; we (the british people) have no say in that matter; It's to the benefit of the ruling class, those that we on this board (in case you had forgotten) are fighting.



Maybe you need to become more informed on your empire's actions in Ireland. -Joe
Perhaps you should also be informed in Irish Nationalist's actions in Britain. To win support of the working class, try not blowing them up.

[Sam_b]

Just to quickly add to Kami's excellent post, the idea of 'we' owning other countries is false: the working class never did, the capitalist ruling class is to blame here.

I should stress that before the ceasefire, which I believe was to almost everyone's benefit, support should be given to those resistance groups focusing on legitimate military targets. Civilians is not one of these.

[joe_the_red]

The ceasefire was a joke. There should never have been a ceasefire, but a bunch of traitors collaborated with the British government for political power, lied to the people, and betrayed all those fighting for full independence. And the Catholic Church, an important subject to a lot of Irish, not to me, sided with the collaborators, of course, siding with the wealthy. This NEEDS to change. Show me some convincing arguments that it can without violence, and I'll will give it serious thought. As I've stated before, I'm an open-minded person, but if I can't see it working, then I will explain why. It's not doing any good to exchange insults, because the whole purpose of these threads is to come to some sort of agreement and be more united, as much as possible at least. So how do we go about this whole thing peacefully? How do we win without violence? Or is that even your position? You speak of Unions and organisation before armed resistance, as it was in the Russian Revolution, and I did not disagree with that. What exactly IS your position, in more depth? Do you feel that eventually, in all seriousness, armed revolution will have to happen, based on modern societies and events? I'm saying that I do, because the capitalists of today will NOT give up their power, and will use all of their resources to keep it, using military force, as well. That is my position. Yes, I agree we need to organise and spread awareness, but if you're saying that will be all we need, and eventually we'll have what we want, then I'm saying I disagree with that, because the capitalists will not let it happen. They will turn to outright fascist oppression to suppress us. -Joe

[Sam_b]

Firstly, stop trying to fit the word 'fascist' in everywhere. Not all capitalist states are fascist.

Secondly, answer to the points raised by myself and Kami, please.

[joe_the_red]

First off, I was not calling all british imperialists. I was calling him an imperialist for his opposition to Irish independence. The Irish Revolution was and is not a nationalist movement. It's a movement for independence. And I've never targeted a civilian. I don't think violence on civilians is necessary, but I don't consider those capitalist business-owners that are buying Irish land and Irish stores as civilians. Your government has committed much more attrocities and crimes against humanity on the people of Ireland, so don't go throwing that crap on me. Like I said, I don't support bombing civilians, but I do support action to remove the imperialists from Ireland. -Joe

[joe_the_red]

And I don't care how many times you "damn" the IRA, the REAL Irish Republican Army was composed of the people and fought for the people. -Joe

[Kami]

And I don't care how many times you "damn" the IRA, the REAL Irish Republican Army was composed of the people and fought for the people. -Joe
You're right there; against the people, as well -.-

[Sam_b]

It's a movement for independence]

That is a nationalist movement.


but I don't consider those capitalist business-owners that are buying Irish land and Irish stores as civilians

I haven't seen many British capitalist business-owners killed. I have, however, seen lots of workers killed, both Portestant and Catholic.


Your government has committed much more attrocities and crimes against humanity on the people of Ireland

I agree. I don't think that anyone condones it.

[joe_the_red]

Only against the traitors that accepted the Good Friday Agreement. -Joe

[Kami]

The Irish Revolution was and is not a nationalist movement. It's a movement for independence. Erm... "Nationalism is a term referring to doctrine or political movement that holds that a nation, usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture, has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny.", according to wikipedia.

And I've never targeted a civilian. I don't think violence on civilians is necessary,
Glad to hear it.


but I don't consider those capitalist business-owners that are buying Irish land and Irish stores as civilians.

As Sam_b said, that'd be all well and good if they had ever been attacked.
More importantly, though, what's up with them buying Irish land, and Irish stores? Isn't them buying land/stores bad enough?


Your government has committed much more attrocities and crimes against humanity on the people of Ireland, so don't go throwing that crap on me.
... I thought that the IRA was the people, in your own words? on the other hand, I oppose my government.

. Like I said, I don't support bombing civilians, but I do support action to remove the imperialists from Ireland. -Joe
Imperialism, Ireland, yadda yadda. What's so important about your island that seperates it from anywhere else? Why not help us fight these people everywhere?

[joe_the_red]

Fighting for independence is better than accepting imperialist or colonialist control. -Joe

[joe_the_red]

I care about my people and their freedom. As such I will do my part to help establish real independence and a Socialist/Communist Republic. And I DO support similar movements everywhere, and consider it the first step towards achieving the Marxist goal, and plan on aiding them in every way I can. -Joe

[Sam_b]

Fighting for independence is better than accepting imperialist or colonialist control. -Joe

So you agree you're a nationalist?

[Kami]

I care about my people and their freedom. As such I will do my part to help establish real independence and a Socialist/Communist Republic
You care about their freedom, yet worry about little, unimportant details like which particular bunch of arseholes is oppressing them? I can assure you, whoever came up with the idea of a flag was a genius; nothing has distracted and divided the working class quite so much as a peice of cloth.

Please, get over your outdated loyalties.

[joe_the_red]

I consider myself someone who cares about his people. If that alone defines me as a nationalist, whatever. I think that it's a first step, and I think that cultural (rather than national) identity is important. When communism is achieved, and there is no real government left, just people, I still hope there will be different cultures, just not hating each other anymore. I think that different cultures and languages make the world an interesting place to live in. -Joe

[welshboy]

I love these boards, since I've been here I've been called an authoritarian for believing in organization and an imperialist because I think national liberation struggles are a load of old shite. I've not laughed so hard in years.
Listen Joe, I advise you to take a trip to the emerald isle and actually see what is happening on the ground there.
Your rampant nationalism is quite odd, tell me do you have a tricolor flag on your wall? What do you think of folk that fly the confederate flag or stars and stripes?

Oh and, your people? Tell me where was it in Ireland that your great grand daddy lived? See you seem to me like so many other American Irish to have a fetish for the political violence of the IRA. Did any of your relatives live in Omagh? No? See I was living in county Cork when that happened. I can tell you now that every Irish person who I spoke to was fucking horrified at that and were dreading the thought that it might mean another wave of violence was beginning.
You try living in a fucking war zone and I'm pretty sure that peace would seem a pretty good option for you.
Oh and I don't think there are going to be many people on these boards who believe that the revolution will come about peacefully, but as has been said previously on this thread the class needs strength before it can take on the might of the state.

[joe_the_red]

Every people deserves freedom and independence from the empires, it's a big first step towards achieving the Marxist goal. A people needs to be free before they can determine their lives. You and I obviously differ. The Irish I know all want their freedom, and no it's not just a bunch of U.S. people claiming that they are Irish, but real Irish. A lot of U.S. citizens like to make the claims, but none are really a part of real Irish culture. I plan on going to Ireland, on immigrating there, and if I don't end up doing that, I will still do everything I can to help them get their freedom, and every people who wants independence from their imperialist colonial "sovereign". You know, your argument about wanting peace is kind of garbage, because we all WANT peace, but living in a war zone would not stop me from doing everything I can to get people their freedom, to have cultural independence, to get away from imperialists, and to have an equal socialist/communist society. That is my position. I believe every people and group is entitled to have their culture, and be free, just as each individual deserves to be a part of whatever culture they feel represents them best. -Joe

[joe_the_red]

And I own a confederate flag as a symbol of fight against tyranny. I'm not southern, but anyone who actually studies history knows that the American Civil War was NOT about slavery. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

You sound like a fucking imperialist welshboy. The Irish people deserve their freedom from your fucking empire. Sounds like YOU are the cop now. Your fucking fascism has shown through. YOU are the one who doesn't seem to understand. I know plenty of freedom fighters in Ireland who are still working for that freedom. Don't trh to claim otherwise you shitbag. You can downplay them and make all the comments you want on ethnicity, you're just an imperialist ****. I don't know about everyone else, but I personally hope your imperialist ass gets restricted. -Joe
quoted for hilairity :lol:

[joe_the_red]

Good for you.

[Kropotesta]

Good for you.
I'm sorry but opposing national liberation does not make anyone inherently a imperialist and by suggesting so isn't everything over than idoicy. Also the IRA killed innocent people, opposed to being 'for the people' who whatever you have to say.

[joe_the_red]

Not every action committed by or for a good cause is good. But that doesn't make the cause any less worth fighting for. I believe that rejecting "nationalist" liberation movements is an imperialist or neo-colonialist tendency. When a people is free from these things, and able to have choice over themselves, then can they start working toward Marxism. It would be nice if these movements were all Marxist, but even the ones that aren't still deserve cultural freedom. We can talk to them and convince them of the rightness of Marxism if they don't already work towards it. You'll have better luck convincing a free people that you helped. It would be near impossible to change an empire. Besides, in almost every liberation movement is a Marxist element, and that is the one that I will work with, if available. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

Not every action committed by or for a good cause is good. But that doesn't make the cause any less worth fighting for.
I'll take it as you condoning murder of innocents.


I believe that rejecting "nationalist" liberation movements is an imperialist or neo-colonialist tendency.
ok, nationalism was revolutionary a hundred odd years ago, now it's just a tired odd conservative view point that creates more divisions than unity. Internationalism is a better way of working as it aims to unite and inspire all.

When a people is free from these things, and able to have choice over themselves, then can they start working toward Marxism.
Like Zimbabwe?

[joe_the_red]

First off, I don't condone the murder of innocents. If someone does that, it doesn't necessarily mean that their group or cause is bad, just the individual. Additionally, liberation movements are NOT all conservative based, and it's not outdated because there are still people under imperialist colonial control. I'm not saying that each culture should isolate themselves from the world, just be self-sustaining and unique. Like I've said before, when I travel, I like to see different cultures and hear different languages. We're all equal, but I am completely opposed to one-language, one-culture. That's globalism, which is what the capitalists are pushing for. Different cultures make this world interesting, and cultures and people under imperial control are in constant danger of becoming extinct. It may not always be happening, but there is a great risk. Without self-sovereignty, a culture is at the mercy of the empire. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

First off, I don't condone the murder of innocents. If someone does that, it doesn't necessarily mean that their group or cause is bad, just the individual. Additionally, liberation movements are NOT all conservative based, and it's not outdated because there are still people under imperialist colonial control. I'm not saying that each culture should isolate themselves from the world, just be self-sustaining and unique. Like I've said before, when I travel, I like to see different cultures and hear different languages. We're all equal, but I am completely opposed to one-language, one-culture. That's globalism, which is what the capitalists are pushing for. Different cultures make this world interesting, and cultures and people under imperial control are in constant danger of becoming extinct. It may not always be happening, but there is a great risk. Without self-sovereignty, a culture is at the mercy of the empire. -Joe
well you won't beable destory imperialism without international revolution, so mobilising people for national liberation merely puts the actual revolution on the back seat.

[joe_the_red]

On the contrary, I feel that a liberation movement helps greatly to get closer towards the international revolution. It prepares the newly liberated area to be ready to take its rights. And if we aid in help liberation movements, and we talk to them about our ideals, our REAL ideals, not just what the modern capitalist news spreads, the people will start to ask questions, and will choose to make their movement a movement of the working class. There will be an international movement, but the chances of it being able to happen during this period of capitalist, imperialist-colonialist domination are a lot lower than if the empires lost their "colonies" to independence movements. There is no reason that we cannot work on both liberation movements and the international revolution at the same time. I view them as linked. As we help free cultures, we help the people realise their worth and importance as individuals, as well. As Marxists, we view each person as an important individual with potential that deserves freedom and equal rights to his/her neighbor. Should we not also view each culture the same? -Joe

[Kropotesta]

On the contrary, I feel that a liberation movement helps greatly to get closer towards the international revolution. It prepares the newly liberated area to be ready to take its rights. And if we aid in help liberation movements, and we talk to them about our ideals, our REAL ideals, not just what the modern capitalist news spreads, the people will start to ask questions, and will choose to make their movement a movement of the working class. There will be an international movement, but the chances of it being able to happen during this period of capitalist, imperialist-colonialist domination are a lot lower than if the empires lost their "colonies" to independence movements. There is no reason that we cannot work on both liberation movements and the international revolution at the same time. I view them as linked. As we help free cultures, we help the people realise their worth and importance as individuals, as well. As Marxists, we view each person as an important individual with potential that deserves freedom and equal rights to his/her neighbor. Should we not also view each culture the same? -Joe
national liberation implies that the ruling class and working class have something in common in gaining 'independence'.
What fundamental changes do you really think independence for Ireland would achieve? There we still be a class system with those at the top and those at the bottom. Capitalism will not be defeated and nor state. It will achieve nothing of substance.

[joe_the_red]

There are Marxist-based liberation groups in Ireland. And gaining Ireland full independence would give the Irish people choice in political matters, not a combined council of English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Irish that may or may not have Ireland's best interest in mind, but that of the capitalist empire that is the U.K. It is always better for a culture and people to be free from imperialism and independent than to be subjected to colonialism. With freedom comes self-determination. A liberation movement doesn't instantly believe that the working class and bourgeois are the same, it means that the culture should be free. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

what culture of the irish is being surpressed by the tyrannical imperialism of the UK?
Cornish? please don't to me you sympathise with the Cornish Indepence Party or whatever it's called! haha
Well England also has MP's from Scotland etc in Parliament and the only parties really stressing that they are to get out of the english Parliament are right-wing nationalists, that should really shine a light on the opinion you're encroaching on.
The myth of nation creates division and cannot immediately aid international revolution, only deter its preparation.

[joe_the_red]

Well, you are just wrong, through and through with your statement that everyone who wants freedom from the U.K. is a right-winger. That's an incorrect statement, because I have met Scots that are a part of Scottish Socialist Freedom movements. And I sympathise with ALL groups wanting freedom. To deny a people and culture its freedom is imperialism. That's what it is. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

I haven't said that they are all exclusively right-wing, just effectively they will all descend into a reformist waste of time, if they gain independence. I merely stated that your approach seems to be right-wing.

[joe_the_red]

My position is not right-winged, I just want people to be able to keep their cultures alive, and imperialism destroys that. It doesn't all fall into reformism, it still takes work to stabilise and to achieve equality and Marxism, but a people subjected to an empire are going to have a much more difficult time at getting that then if they were free. I am not a proponent of liberation movements for the purpose of preserving a nation, but for preserving a culture. And the U.K. does suppress Irish culture, because capitalism is inherently anti-culture. Money becomes the object sought after, and everything else is compromised. Look at the United States. There's practically no real culture left. Just greed. Independent nations have at least a little potential of reaching Marxist practice peacefully, through legislation... but under an imperial sovereign they WILL have to fight. My reasoning is that if the sovereign in question will not let them have their independence, and will hold the territory despite what the people want, what makes anyone think they will surrender control to a government that actually represents the people? It is also a lot better for morale to work towards Marxist politics if your people are free and independent. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

Have you been to Ireland? What Irish traditions are being squashed via them being part of the UK? actual examples please. Wouldn't everything still be relativly the same due to globalisation?

[joe_the_red]

Globalisation? Never. Globalisation is one-nation world government, and all that would serve to do would be to do what the E.U. does now, give more power to the powerful nations. Except that in one-nation world government, they wouldn't be seperate nations. The big nations who previously couldn't just walk into another nation and take their resources for profit would then be able to freely. The best thing that we could do would be to have no governments in the future, just people. We would still have different cultures, because those won't die off by themselves, only with capitalism replacing culture with money. Ireland being independent of the U.K. protects the people from U.K. laws that have nothing for Ireland, and also from any future conscription or mandatory military service to get killed in the name of capitalism. Under the U.K., the Irish language was suppressed, Irish music was even suppressed. Before Ireland got the minimal freedom it has now, the British government banned public meetings, and was incredibly oppressive. But to this day even, the British send their investors to buy out previously Irish-owned businesses, and so an Irish man or woman goes into a store that use to be owned by someone more local, and their resources end up going to the U.K. to support capitalism. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

I was referring to economic globalisation and current irish culture in the here and now.

[joe_the_red]

Irish language is still being suppressed to this day, and British investors are currently taking Irish-owned businesses, and therefore taking Irish resources for their own. And economic globalisation is no different. We can all share resources, but all of our communities ideally should be self-sustaining, not needing outside aid. There will still be trade with each other, but it shouldn't be on a need basis. Even if a community cannot support itself, the surrounding region should help it to. Economy should be localised, not globalised. Smaller areas of authority as opposed to bigger ones. Local people know what each other want, but someone who grows up in Maryland, U.S.A., for example, is not going to know what someone from Montana or Florida is like, and will definitely not know what someone from Ireland, Vietnam or Palestine wants in life. These are just examples, too. The smaller that government is, the more say the people have. Same with economy. I feel that we should not be "seperate" in the modern world, not isolate ourselves, but not depend on outside resources as much as possible. We can be peaceful and keep our cultures without being globalised. And there are way too many negatives that come with globalisation. -Joe

[Kropotesta]

OK that's fine, I'm all for federalism, for fuck sakes I'm an anarchist! However I don't see how national liberation can achieve what you stated in that post, it is all merely wishful thinking that a country can be completely self-sufficient in the current capitalist world, look at how Russia did. Thus it is international not national that is needed.

[joe_the_red]

I don't have much time, so I'll conclude my statements today with this summary: Government should be more localised, or in small areas and small nations until we are ready to do away with "government" as we know it, and fully realise communism. Economy and decision-making should be done at a low level, and communities/regions should be self-sustaining. There should still be trade and interaction with the rest of the world, not isolationism, because there are a lot of interesting things that the world has to offer, all based on cultural differences. This should not seperate us, but be something to celebrate. So we should be internationally friendly, so to speak, but still different, independent cultures and communities. That's my thought on the matter. And, to actually tie it back into what the original post was of, it is worth fighting for, but not unless one is organised and ready, and the proper steps have been taken. Sorry if I can't stick around to continue discussion, but I'll be back tomorrow. -Joe

[Sam_b]

and therefore taking Irish resources for their own

Well, actually the British Empire never extracted much resource from the occupied six counties, and had to heavily subsidise it. So in the truest sense it wasn't even a very good imperialist occupation.

But is it just me that no longer views Ireland as a national liberation movement? Of course we should support the Irish peoples right to self-determination if they so choose to, but it certainly takes a back seat to the movements of Iraq and Palestine. As opposed to these movements the Catholics in Northern Ireland are nowhere near oppressed.

[joe_the_red]

The main resource I'm referring to is money. And not that money is the most important thing in this world or anything, but until we can make some changes in the system of the exchange of goods and labor, and therefore abolish the idea of "money", it's still important to have some. An unfortunate thing, but as it is, Irish money is being drawn from Ireland and displaced to Britain. It's not just Britain that's oppressing the Irish workers, though, it's Fianna Fail, the collaborator party that has started capitalising the nation, and their push for the Lisbon treaty (E.U. treaty that makes voting power based on population and makes the E.U. nations obligated to send all military aid possible during wartime), which just brings more and more power to the big nations: Germany, France, Britain, Italy. There are still plenty of freedom movements out there, the best one being RSF, and they are working towards a Socialist/Communist Republic that can get out of the E.U. and have worker freedom. The group eirigi is another good group pushing for the same. And yes, Iraq and Palestine are still important, very important, but I cannot ignore this one. I feel that this "battle" can be one, and will do what I can to help with it. During that time I'll still be doing what I can for other movements, as well, and also to help impoverished areas of the world to have there needs met, as many locations as I possibly can at least, I'm not stupid, I know I can't fix the world by myself, but I don't plan on being by myself on this one either. I realise this will make my life very busy in the future, and will likely be pretty damn risky, but I don't care, because I want to do everything I can to make the world better. Maybe that sounds corny, but I'm not worried about looking silly. I'll do whatever I can for them. If I never have to pick up a gun to fight, all the better. But I'm willing to, if that's what it takes. That's I'm saying. I feel that eventually in some places, now in other places, and sooner rather than later in many places, the revolution will necessitate violent struggle. All we can do is what we can do for now, if that's protests and pickets for workers' rights, petitions against the Lisbon treaty or armed resistance for the freedom of a people... we are all doing something important. I'm not saying that everyone can do all of these things, just that we all will do as much as we can. Is that fair to say? I think so. -Joe

[gla22]

Lets be reasonable. If the time was right i would be up in arms to fight for the revolution. Let the fucking economy collapse then we'll talk. This will happen in 10 years or 50 years when it happens that will be the time. What we can do right now is fix the negative connotation of the words communism and anarchism and educate people on why capitalism fails. If anyone wants to meet in person and educate people PM me. Driving around and blowing up buildings completes nothing.

[joe_the_red]

To be quite honest, in some parts of the world the revolution is already occurring, in others it is very close to ready, but in places like the U.S. there is work to be done first. Just have to stay prepared and keep doing what needs to be done. -Joe

[Peacekeeper]

My position is not right-winged, I just want people to be able to keep their cultures alive, and imperialism destroys that. It doesn't all fall into reformism, it still takes work to stabilise and to achieve equality and Marxism, but a people subjected to an empire are going to have a much more difficult time at getting that then if they were free. I am not a proponent of liberation movements for the purpose of preserving a nation, but for preserving a culture. And the U.K. does suppress Irish culture, because capitalism is inherently anti-culture. Money becomes the object sought after, and everything else is compromised. Look at the United States. There's practically no real culture left. Just greed. Independent nations have at least a little potential of reaching Marxist practice peacefully, through legislation... but under an imperial sovereign they WILL have to fight. My reasoning is that if the sovereign in question will not let them have their independence, and will hold the territory despite what the people want, what makes anyone think they will surrender control to a government that actually represents the people? It is also a lot better for morale to work towards Marxist politics if your people are free and independent. -Joe

I agree with your argument, I would just like to point out that we in the US never really had a culture (excluding natives), other than the Puritanism of the early settlers, and the Islam of the slaves, which was largely stamped out. So it is natural that our culture of hedonism is even more visible and intense than in other Western capitalist societies.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

So it is natural that our culture of hedonism is even more visible and intense than in other Western capitalist societies.

What do you mean by 'culture of hedonism?'

Revolution doesn't depend on giving up this or that sin. Nor is its aim of eliminating hedonism.

In fact, I think that one of the arguments for revolution is a hedonistic one: we will be able to enjoy life's pleasures as fully as possible. Capitalism puts all sorts of limits on that.

Your particular ideas about what is morally wrong are only subjective attitudes.

Looking at drugs, they are used, amongst other reasons, because they make our current lives more enjoyable.

Intoxicating substances are not limited to capitalism. We have evidence of actual wine samples dating back 7,000 years. It probably goes back further too.

The only sort of attitude that the 'anti-hedonistic' view encourages is one of moral puritanism.

Someone enjoys reading poetry, someone enjoys watching Simpsons.

Someone enjoys exercising, another might enjoy smoking a joint.

I think it is worthwhile noting that conservatives are at the forefront at attacking hedonism (on drugs and sex, for example).

I think that should be telling regarding the interests behind such criticisms of hedonism.

[joe_the_red]

It is a good point brought up. Making something illegal is not helpful. In truth, it only puts more money in the pockets of organised crime, which commonly (though not always) is strong-arm capitalist in nature. Few enough organisations like that have the peoples' best interests in mind, and work for rights and freedoms, because rights and freedoms mean less profits for them. But anyways... the more things that are illegal the less freedom for the masses, and in fact, abuse of substances mostly (not only) comes from the fact that it is illegal and many people have very rebellious (whether for a cause or not) attitudes. That is just the "culture" that the media is trying to build up. Watch the movie "Idiocracy", it's a pretty good indicator of where the U.S. is headed. But that aside, the revolution is meant for people to have more freedoms. Yes, there has to be a socialist transition period before we can reach the end-goal of communism, but the people need to be in charge. Minimal federal control, more regional control, maximum community autonomy. The government needs weak powers, so that people can go about their daily lives with the possibility of not having to run into anything government related. Now, I personally do no drugs whatsoever. I do enjoy moderate drinking of quality beers (microbrews and good imports), I enjoy good coffee here and there (at a coffee shop that uses Fair Trade coffee), and occassionally I like to do some "hardcore" relaxing with a good cigar. Since moderate drinking is healthy for you and very light coffee consumption isn't bad for you, and you don't actually "smoke" cigars persay, I don't do anything that puts any sort of hindrance on my health. I don't do it because I think it's wrong, I just don't do it because I want to keep my health and endurance up as best I can, because of certain activities that I do really enjoy, namely Rugby and Muay Thai. But many of my friends do smoke marijuana, some of them experiment a little with a bit more serious stuff, but it's their choice to make, not mine. Just like abortion, it's not my choice, and while I'm not sure whether or not I think that it's morally wrong, it's NOT my choice. Every time I see those conservative christians outside picketing the abortion clinics, I want to go stand outside their churches with a sign with pictures of starving children from Africa and Asia that says "They didn't convert, so they starve", and on the bottom saying "Now who's pro-life?". But people are ridiculous. Anyways... getting back to something more on topic... there is a lot of work to be done in the U.S., but I think that we're making progress. Student organisations and workers' unions exist, and with all of the failures and oppression being dealt by the capitalist empires, more and more people ARE realising what needs to be done. Now, we're making progress, but in the U.S., there still needs to be done a lot of work. In other locations around the world, though, the people are ready for revolution now or will be very shortly. I fully believe that the liberation movements need to be paid attention to and supported, that they have strong chances of turning into movements for the workers. We just need to show the people fighting these movements that not only can their people have independence and sovereignty, but that they're all equal, and that they can make the political decisions, not just their "leaders". Difficult task, but can be done. As long as we're always prepared, always aware and always making progress, we're doing our part. -Joe

[subcommander24]

for some time now i've been thinking along the exact same lines, i am tired of being pushed around by corporate bullies and this shitty administration controlling everything the gentrification,police brutality,health care and a long list of other crimes against humanity it is time to start pushing back i am ready and prepared for revolution

[joe_the_red]

It is good that you are ready and prepared yourself, but we cannot act until there are more people prepared, as well. Certain locations in the world are already ready as a whole for the revolution, but the U.S. and U.K. are two examples of areas that need more work. We just need to do what we can and keep our eyes open for opportunities, but we cannot be too jumpy. Granted, many things that happen get my blood pumping and make me want to go fight right away... but the capitalists want us to strike unreadily. So, always be ready, and do what we can until everyone else catches up. -Joe

[shuuk]

[quote=Sam_b;1139337]Al-Queda blows up the WTC. This is a terrorist act, and is widely condemned, allowing a platform for the invasion of Afghanistan.

actualy the WTC was a bombing watch the vidio and all the Iwitness testamonies there were multiple explosions TO simular to planed demolition (why) because war fuels econimy!
ohh and PS were in iraq to just a question but how dose al queda attack us and we end up a hole contry away???

but besides that fuck ya about time sumone wakes up and says fuck this hippy bulshyt that gets revolutions nowere its time we go out and hit the streets with some jimmy hoffa shyt!!!!!! im down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shuuk]

sorry for that last post i didnt realize that there were 11 pages my bad BUT STILL HAVE THE SAME FEELINGS!!! :p

[Sam_b]

actualy the WTC was a bombing watch the vidio and all the Iwitness testamonies there were multiple explosions TO simular to planed demolition (why) because war fuels econimy!
ohh and PS were in iraq to just a question but how dose al queda attack us and we end up a hole contry away???


:rolleyes:

[joe_the_red]

First of all... I was under the impression we were under some form of agreement that the violent stage of the revolution is going to happen, but that we weren't going to go out in the street and commit wanton violence. I was under the impression that we were going to organise and be ready when the time comes, that some areas of the world are ready for revolution (or it is happening beyond their choosing) and others are not. While I feel that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job, either not everyone has learned that yet, or they choose not to realise it. What we have to do is ready ourselves, so that we're always prepared, and build our ranks. We have to go about this intelligently. Look at military tactics, you don't constantly attack an enemy with overwhelming firepower unless you are superior in size, and since reds don't outnumber pigs in places like the U.S. and U.K., this is simply not a valid choice. We can try to make peoples' lives better as much as we can, do social work and the such, develop poor nations and communities, fight for rights, because war is the last alternative. Personally, I feel that we will do what we can, and have to fight, but if we can at all avoid it, that's best. Still, I think it's unavoidable, so we should be ready, and continue to grow, and when the capitalists and fascists go too far, and people actually realise what's going on, that's when we have to be most active. If there are capitalists and fascists harassing your, or taking away your freedoms, small acts to demonstrate aren't necessarily a bad idea. Putting a virus in a major corporations computer system, burning their important documents, vandalising their property (hitting them below the belt economically), or, in certain case situations, if there are imperialist soldiers occupying an area, as is the case with the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the U.K. in Ireland, small actions against these imperialist enemy soldiers isn't immoral. Roughing up capitalist business types stealing resources isn't either, in my opinion. There are some who will walk all over people who try to pass legislation for rights, but there are innocent people, too. The point is to know what you're doing before you take any action. These are all just examples, not applicable to every situation. Cheers. -Joe

[welshboy]

Now joe I've said it before. PARAGRAPHS!!!!;)
Writing in one block like that makes your posts almost unreadable.

[shuuk]

I AGREE TAKE ACTION NOW!!! ecenomicaly physicaly any way possible to bring the capitalists and corpret powers to there knees!!!

[shuuk]

ps Sam b battle me on this 1 wuts with the :rolleyes: if you wana say sumthin say it

[Sam_b]

ps Sam b battle me on this 1
wuts with the http://www.revleft.com/vb/violent-revolution-todays-t76119/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif if you wana say sumthin say it

Once you start aknowledging the posts in this thread, stop conspiracy theorising and make posts that are actually readable, then we can have a discussion.

[shuuk]

So sam, do you belive everything the government tells you??? hmm do you really think that bush is that reliable? are you just SUPER republican to where you follow bush blindly like a sheep?

Im just trying to further understand your point of view and why your acusing me of being a conspiracy therorist?

Sure i cant spell for shit but im not illiteret.

Is it really that hard to belive that the government would kill its own people to better a few?

Also you never answered my question on how we can invade Iraq with the knowlage that Osama is in Afganistan. There should have been no need to go to Iraq.

Or am i wrong about all of this and what i am seeing as yourself?

And finaly am i not taking intrest in this thred as i am a strong supporter of the more violent revolutionary actions to physicaly economicly or even if its possible mentaly bring this corupt government to the ground and build it back up?

tell me the answer to these questions inlighten me!

[welshboy]

It is completely believable that a government would kill 'it's own people'. The invasion of Afghanistan was for a pipeline and to keep a military presence near Russia, Iraq was oil and to keep a military presence next to an increasingly unstable Saudi Arabia.
However endless conjecture over the 11/9 attacks is a complete distraction from the issues that face the working class today. It doesn't matter if it was Muslim fundies or some new world order-esque guys in dark glasses. That it happened is enough and that it was used as an excuse for war is not debatable.
If you want to know more about why anarchists and communists either reject conspiracy theories out of hand or are not concerned with them you should read this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-conspiracy-theories-t61603/index.html) thread.

[Sam_b]

So sam, do you belive everything the government tells you??? hmm do you really think that bush is that reliable? are you just SUPER republican to where you follow bush blindly like a sheep?

That is so ridiculous i'm not even going to dignify it with an answer. And i'm not American, and I obviously don't support the Iraq war. Justify your comments or just leave them out.


Im just trying to further understand your point of view and why your acusing me of being a conspiracy therorist?

Because you're (from what I can try to read) making statements about the US government blowing up the twin towers. That's a conspiracy theory.


Is it really that hard to belive that the government would kill its own people to better a few?

Obviously its not. However I do not believe and have heard absolutely no real or compelling evidence to suggest that "9/11 was an inside job".


Also you never answered my question on how we can invade Iraq with the knowlage that Osama is in Afganistan. There should have been no need to go to Iraq.

I think you'll find I never answered any 'questions' because I can't read your posts. I suggest it didn't need an answer anyway as if you look at my posts/comments etc I have never once supported the imperialist occupation and invasion of Iraq.


as i am a strong supporter of the more violent revolutionary actions to physicaly economicly or even if its possible mentaly bring this corupt government to the ground and build it back up?

Well I think thats completely idiotic. We have yet to win over the working class to socialist ideas. Or do you suggest that we have some sort of violent 'guerilla insurgency' that goes against every single lesson taught by Marx and Lenin, or that goes against the entire practice and legacy of 1917?

[joe_the_red]

First of all, I will give a little background. My wife is half Indian (from India, for those who would immediately think Native American). She lived in India for quite some time of her life, too, and still has many friends there.

One of her friends is learning how to be a pilot, she took classes in Serbia, passed all of those classes (it was difficult, though, because apparently Serbia looks down on women trying to become pilots). She also took her final pilot tests there and passed, as well.

Well, one must also pass the tests in the country that you are going to operate in, typically your home nation. She studied hard and knows that she did very well on these tests, too. When she received her results, she had failed. And the government won't show her the actual test answers and results.


Her instructor told her that she can take the government to court, and she'll win, and they will have to show her the test results, and to pass her. She will win that case, but then the government will blacklist her and she'll never be able to work as a pilot in India. The reason for this is because apparently India has too many registered pilots and not enough work, but still, this tactic is not legitimate. Rather than passing any new pilots, they just fail them. I could at least understand passing pilots who actually pass, and then telling them that unfortunately there are no positions in India.

I could at least understand that. But many of these people, including my wife's friend, have spent a lot of money, time and effort to get this far. Her mother even put a mortgage on their house so that she could go to pilot training.

*What's the point of this in this thread? I simply wish to offer a bit of evidence showing that India is getting another step closer to revolution. Not saying that it's going to happen tomorrow or even next week, but people will see this. Soon enough, it won't be just pilots that are going through this, but teachers, truck drivers, plumbers, electricians, you name it. The government will believe there are too many, and people that have worked hard to learn their trade will be told they don't qualify.

I know that there is a rather large communist party in India. This recent bit of information says to me that this communist party will become even bigger in the near future, and that if that party isn't allowed to seat members in the government and start going through political change, that when the majority of people in India call themselves socialists, communists or leftists, there might be armed revolution.

There may be things like this going on all over the world in several countries, I don't doubt it. But this is one piece of evidence I do have that I can share. India is closer to armed revolution. They have oppression, they have incredible poverty in many places. They have a government which fails daily to produce any form of beneficial results for the people, but still wishes to through its weight around against other nations like Pakistan. People are realising it, as displayed by their Communist Party, and more will be soon. I only wonder how much longer it will be before people start reacting violently to this sort of thing.

-Joe
(Paragraphs brought to you by Joe, for Sam_b and welshboy)

[shuuk]

Well I think thats completely idiotic. We have yet to win over the working class to socialist ideas. Or do you suggest that we have some sort of violent 'guerilla insurgency' that goes against every single lesson taught by Marx and Lenin, or that goes against the entire practice and legacy of 1917?[/quote]

Right so the major theme i see here is the "Marx Lenin teachings" and I know I'm going to recive major flack for this but I have no fucking idea what those would be I'm not Marxist and I'm not Leninist eather. Really if it has to do with peacefull demonstration I say fuck that. And to be clear on this subject and so you can understand my view on this I will tell you why...

First I see peacfull demonstrations failing in that most people dont give a shit about what we have to say and by what i can gather is that at most political demonstrations the people that show up already no all about the topic and already suport it how dose that bring more people to our cause.

Also before I say anything else i do agree that some peacefull demonstration is infact needed to educate but only gets somewhere when followed up by more violent means.

To continue I cant even argue with you about 9/11 because it wouldnt make a difference because you wont listen to what i have said previously when i told you to listen to the witnesses and watch the videos.

Finaly do they have anything like the american patriot act where you live. if so that is even more cause to speed up the process and go to the guerilla tactics you had mentioned.

[welshboy]

First off thanks joe, I wasn't being flippant, for once, I really find large blocks of text nigh on unreadable on screen.
Interesting post though I don't think that it shows India becoming any closer to revolution, revolt yes but not revolution. It is the organisation that makes revolt transform into revolution. This is what makes organisation so important. It gives the class the tools it needs to move beyond simple revolt and resistance into full blown revolution.
As to the Communist Party in India, I doubt they have the size or organisational capacity to influence any revolt at the moment. I could be wrong of course but I'm sure I would have heard if there was a massive communist influence in India being as I work with quite a few people who were politically active in India.

Shuuk. Please go back and read through this thread. You will see that there was quite a heated debate between myself, sam_b, joe_the_red, Vageli and others on the subjct in the thread title.
I'm personally not really in the mood to rehash it all now.

[professorchaos]

Well I think thats completely idiotic. We have yet to win over the working class to socialist ideas. Or do you suggest that we have some sort of violent 'guerilla insurgency' that goes against every single lesson taught by Marx and Lenin, or that goes against the entire practice and legacy of 1917?

Right so the major theme i see here is the "Marx Lenin teachings" and I know I'm going to recive major flack for this but I have no fucking idea what those would be I'm not Marxist and I'm not Leninist eather. Really if it has to do with peacefull demonstration I say fuck that. And to be clear on this subject and so you can understand my view on this I will tell you why...

First I see peacfull demonstrations failing in that most people dont give a shit about what we have to say and by what i can gather is that at most political demonstrations the people that show up already no all about the topic and already suport it how dose that bring more people to our cause.

Also before I say anything else i do agree that some peacefull demonstration is infact needed to educate but only gets somewhere when followed up by more violent means.

To continue I cant even argue with you about 9/11 because it wouldnt make a difference because you wont listen to what i have said previously when i told you to listen to the witnesses and watch the videos.

Finaly do they have anything like the american patriot act where you live. if so that is even more cause to speed up the process and go to the guerilla tactics you had mentioned.
I don't know why the PATRIOT Act and 9/11 have anything to do with the present discussion because the point of communist revolution isn't to reverse political oppression by the government but rather to end economic oppression on the part of the ruling class, which also makes possible the political oppression visited upon us by the Bush administration or any capitalist administration.

The point that you don't seem to grasp is that random violent acts with a revolutionary aim are empty, pointless gestures when they lack mass support and only serve to defeat our cause by allowing the mainstream to demonize it. The tactic you are advocating, which, I gather, is dramatic, violent acts to popularize or otherwise win support for a cause was one supported by anarchists in the early 20th century, known as "propaganda of the deed". This tactic, however, came to be rejected by the majority of serious anarchist theorists.

And, really, man, if you're going to attempt to hang on a revolutionary leftist forum you're going to have to have read at least some Marx or have a general grasp of his theory, or no one is going to take you seriously (and they aren't). Marx is the most important and respected leftist theorist in history.

[welshboy]

I agree with profchaos, go read some Marx, and I would add Kropotkin and Bakunin.
Propaganda by the deed was born out of the hopelessness and despair of the late 1800's and early 1900's when the class faced starvation and poverty on a scale akin to 'third world' countries today. They weren't going around blowing stuff up and shooting presidents to get some inquiry reopened. It was because they and their families were working horrendous hours and were daily fending off starvation.
This is why I am so quick to dismiss folk who want to carry out this kind of action in the here and now. It is youthful adventurism with little to no revolutionary potential and the potential to wreak more harm than it is worth.
On that note I would not condemn anyone who shot Robert Mugabe and would probably buy the person that did it a pint or six.:D

[Sam_b]

I know that there is a rather large communist party in India. This recent bit of information says to me that this communist party will become even bigger in the near future, and that if that party isn't allowed to seat members in the government and start going through political change, that when the majority of people in India call themselves socialists, communists or leftists, there might be armed revolution.


There are several communist parties in India. The point is however, that they're all useless.

[joe_the_red]

As far as the Patriot Act goes, correct me if I'm wrong British persons, but in the U.K. the police are free to search your home and property and wire-tap you without any form of notice or warrant. They don't need a Patriot Act because they don't have those kinds of restrictions. That's what I've heard, at least.

-Joe

[joe_the_red]

And even if the parties in India aren't doing much now, who is to say that with an influx of new people from recent oppressions that they wouldn't become much better. Or perhaps a new one would be formed and get the support. Even if they aren't all in agreement over what's to be done, as long as there are people, there is always the ability to get things done.

I must admit, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to join a Revolutionary Leftist group in the first place if they don't study and agree with Marx, at least. Tell me, if you're not a Marxist, what is the goal of your wanton violence? Why commit acts of rebellion and violence in the first place if your goals aren't Marxist? I'm quite curious, in truth.

-Joe

[Sam_b]

And even if the parties in India aren't doing much now, who is to say that with an influx of new people from recent oppressions that they wouldn't become much better.

Because the CPI and CPI-M have backed pro-business measures in their administrative regions?


Or perhaps a new one would be formed and get the support

Its been tried, but due to the massive geographical area its poven difficult.


Why commit acts of rebellion and violence in the first place if your goals aren't Marxist?

The question is whether this is actually 'Marxist' practice or not. There is nothing wrong with taking up arms in a revolutionary situation, but Trotsky's writings on terrorism clearly show that otherwise its completely unworthwhile.

[joe_the_red]

Then apparently what is need is regional communist parties, since state to state is quite different cultures. The people of Punjab are different than those of Gujarat, for example. If my research is correct, there are 1600+ different languages/dialects/cultures in India. Some of them are close to each other, and some simply are not.

With this information, it would appear that India 'should' be broken up into some form of loose confederation, with each state having more localised authority. Therefore I would say that the people of each culture (representing their state) should form their own group, and just work together with the others. Difficult yes, but still worth it.

Smaller nations/states with more authority than a federal government is a path to community sovereignty. A step in the right direction, in my opinion.

-Joe

[shuuk]

And even if the parties in India aren't doing much now, who is to say that with an influx of new people from recent oppressions that they wouldn't become much better. Or perhaps a new one would be formed and get the support. Even if they aren't all in agreement over what's to be done, as long as there are people, there is always the ability to get things done.

I must admit, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to join a Revolutionary Leftist group in the first place if they don't study and agree with Marx, at least. Tell me, if you're not a Marxist, what is the goal of your wanton violence? Why commit acts of rebellion and violence in the first place if your goals aren't Marxist? I'm quite curious, in truth.

-Joe

Ok, well seeing as I have sat back for a little wile and read up a little insite all of you have givin me i will try to learn somthing about Marx or Lenin, as for you joe to answer your question it will seem very very out of place but at least in america i dont want to try to establish a communist rule

( because democracy is fine when the right people are in power, and the only thing I really want to do with a revolution would be somewhat like matanice to the political system of america so that it goes back to how it was when america was first formed. After that, reconstructing the restrictions on how the police operate and add/remove some laws that would hopfuly prevent the current state form happening again.)

As for the post about my violent tactics, well i have been doing alot of thinking and I have come to see that at this point non-violent tactics would be the best and I know Sam b is going to agian call me a conspiracy therorist but when the government starts puting chips in our head ( watch zietgiest you may want to omit everything about religion) the people will be ready for more violent means of action, but hopfuly before then.

(p.s I am going to say that zietgiest IS a pretty far reach but when it comes to oppressive capitalist you can never be to sure :glare:)

[Sam_b]

and the only thing I really want to do with a revolution would be somewhat like matanice to the political system of america so that it goes back to how it was when america was first formed. After that, reconstructing the restrictions on how the police operate and add/remove some laws that would hopfuly prevent the current state form happening again

Please read your theory up and understand what a socialist revolution must be based on. I also highly reccommend you read the first few chapters of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" if you think that the country under the Founding Fathers was in any way decent and progressive.


I know Sam b is going to agian call me a conspiracy therorist but when the government starts puting chips in our head

I'm not going to call you a conspiracy theorist. However, I am going to call you crazy.

[shuuk]

Please read your theory up and understand what a socialist revolution must be based on. I also highly reccommend you read the first few chapters of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" if you think that the country under the Founding Fathers was in any way decent and progressive.



I'm not going to call you a conspiracy theorist. However, I am going to call you crazy.

You hate way to much. :laugh:

[Sam_b]

Too much hate, or an unwillingness on your part to formulate a Marxist position?

[joe_the_red]

*You realise that Marxism and Socialism/Communism is the only way to achieve true, permanent democracy, right? Do you think that Capitalists will give the people voice? No, the ones who are in control are those with money, those with capital.

The U.S. constitution was written to protect wealthy landowners' property rights. The Electoral College has been an institution since the beginning, because the capitalists claimed that the common man was too ignorant to vote. And sure, it may be difficult to know much about the political scene in, say, Virginia if you live in Boston. This is why things political authority should be more localised. The United States was a direct power-grab by the capitalists from a monarchy.

The goal isn't to make a communist "rule", so to speak. Marxism is about giving the people the choices in community "government". The United States isn't a democracy. The people don't decide. The only people who can run for political office and do campaigning are wealthy people who have sponsors and funding from other wealthy people or big businesses. The people that you actually vote for are just a selection of bourgeois fucks that tell people what they want to hear.

The political parties choose other candidates, like the presidential candidates, who are chosen by "super-delegates". And then when the two candidates are chosen, the Electoral College votes for president. And who picks the members of Electoral College? Not the people. So you see... your only choices are between fat, wealthy capitalists who do not give a damn about you, and the really big decisions? The people are not trusted with them. It is so simple, so obvious, why people don't realise it amazes me. But the media spreads information, and the media is owned by the capitalists.

The majority of people don't want to get out of their comfort zone, anyways. That's why things are going to get much worse before they get better, because in order for people to forget about comfort zones, the capitalists will have to pass legislations that make peoples' lives worse. It's happening, but not to the degree that will snap people out of it. So... do you still feel that the United States is a democracy? If not, try Marxism.*

Perhaps these aren't the most grammatically correct choices of paragraph separation, but hopefully they will do.

-Joe

[professorchaos]

You are familiar with the "edit" button, right?

[joe_the_red]

I only saw it after I made the others. Is there a way to delete the other (first) two?

[professorchaos]

One can generally only delete a post if one has moderation powers or if there are no posts following it.

[Sam_b]

One can generally only delete a post if one has moderation powers or if there are no posts following it

You can click the 'edit' button under your post and delete/edit your posts as you wish.

[shuuk]

Too much hate, or an unwillingness on your part to formulate a Marxist position?

Hmmm decent point, but i have actualy formulated a Marxist position in the past few days in that i finaly read up on Marxism on Wiki and agreed with it on a few topics the main ones being the need for a workers revolution and the knowlage that the working party is being exploited all the time...

My bad for not understanding this earlyer...

You were hatin tho :)

[Sam_b]

i finaly read up on Marxism on Wiki

Don't use Wikipedia! The Marxist Internet Archive (www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org)) or good old-fashioned books are so much better.

What did you read in particular?

[shuuk]

What did you read in particular?

Thanks for the link that helped alot more than Wiki, and what i read was the intro on Wiki, "Marxism as a political practice" and "History" also on Wiki.

As for books it may not be Marxist but its about the global class war. In a nutshell its a book on how the world is trying to get rid of the middle man and cut out the working class.

[joe_the_red]

Wikipedia.... I've happened across complete and utter bullshit articles on Wikipedia before. I was writing an essay in one of my previous classes on a band, and had chose the Sex Pistols, and decided to use Wikipedia as a starting point. There was hardly one bit of factual information on there at the time. It was humourous, but no help. Hopefully it has changed since then.

Things you should read book wise when first learning about Marxism: 'Das Kapital', 'Communist Manifesto', 'The German Ideology', 'State and Revolution'. This will be a good start, and afterwards, there are vast numbers of other books, both classical and contemporary, which would be good to add to that list.

-Joe

[professorchaos]

You can click the 'edit' button under your post and delete/edit your posts as you wish.
Well, that's a bad idea.

[KappaDelta]

Welshboy pretty much said it. The left in the United States(plz don't call it america, it insults the rest of us who live in this continent)


The United States of America is the only country to have the word "America" in its name. Calling it the United States might even confuse more than it would help, as the Estados Unidos Mexicanos would also be implicated with the term.

Actually, I don't really care, it just bugs me when people make pointless distinctions in semantics. It reeks of "Freedom Fries."

[shuuk]

Speeking of "America" has anyone herd of the North American Union?
Or the amero?

[LOUDNOISE]

I agree completely. We can't just stake out in front of Congress. THEY DO NOTHING. It's becoming that violence is the only answer. I'll admit that the peaceful protests of the civil rights movement did get things done but it took about 10 years (1957ish-1968). And I know that laws were enacted earlier than 1968, but they didn't take serious effect until about then.
Anyway, I think it is very possible to have a successful revolution. It would have to be the definition of "well-planned," but I believe it can be done.

[LOUDNOISE]

Oh yeah, I heard about all that in the movie Zeitgeist. But think about it. We are nothing like Europe. In the United States alone, we have different third world countries (the hispanic regions, african american regions, white regions, etc.) Canada is predominantly white, And then all of south and central America are so vastly different. It couldn't work.

[joe_the_red]

Actually, Canada is more multicultural than the United States. I guess you've never been to Toronto, Vancouver, Victoria, or any number of Canadian cities. Anyways, after stating your point of view, please go back and review the other posts in this section. Cheers.

Joe

[RedHal]

Where's Kronos? Just wanted to ask him if CoIntelPro are still going around in VW vans, inciting violent action by well meaning leftists, so they can get arrested :laugh:

[Black Sheep]

i do think the burgoisie must be monitoring this chat.. so watch out.:(

[ellipsis]

Glad to see that this thread is still alive and well. It is an important discussion to have within the revolutionary left.

[TheWaffleCzar]

I;m certainly on board. I am beyond outraged with the current state of affairs. I'll also probably just end up moving to Switzerland.

[CommunistBattlelord]

Everything i am saying in this post is just figuratively speaking and for entertainment purposes only.

Few things annoy me more than the defeatist attitude, "Screw that! i'm just getting a one-way ticket to [insert country here!]"

i think that a actual armed revolution, while possible, would be much more effective it it was more a war of attrition and infiltration, making good use of sabotage.


;)

[CommunistBattlelord]

Here's a random event that gave me a buzz. Saturday before last I was manning the Glasgow Anarchist info stall in the centre of the city in the spot where all the different lefty groups congregate to disseminate propaganda. Word went around that the British National Party (far right group)were selling their paper at the top of the street. A group of us from the various stalls marched on up there and gave them hassle. Nothing surprising there though. What happened next though was that passers by stopped and started having a go at them as well, nobody wanted them on the city streets. Not really sure where I'm going with this aside from to say that there is hope and the more effort that goes into building power for the working class the brighter that hope gets.


Of course the common masses are opposed to something like the KKK or whatever!
But revolting against the government is an entirely different story.
God.