is communisum falling - all signs point 2 yes

[left winger commie]

communisum is falling indeed im not a man 2 h8 it but we are losing cappilisum has over 70% of the golbes power

[Capitalist Imperial]

its not falling, it fell

[mcleodstickle]

"Capitalism has over 70% of the globes power"
is that "all the signs"
cos if it is... thats pretty pathetic... come on,i need more "signs" than that

And even if it is... there is still us... and i dont see many of the communists here converting to capitalists any time soon

(Edited by mcleodstickle at 10:31 pm on July 3, 2002)

[PunkRawker677]

Capitalism hold MUCH more than 70% of the world powers. CI, soviet style communism may have fallen, but democratic socialism and utopian communism still exists in the minds of a large number of people..

[Capitalist Imperial]

agreed, but in your minds it will stay

[Michael De Panama]

LWC, you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

[American Kid]

Left Wing, yo dog.

Yeah, definetely a strange cat. What's really weird is he never really responds to people's responses to his posts. He just drops a notion, and watches everyone else run with it. Or says something wierd like: "capilusim sukz. cappies/imperialies enlavez every1. cappies die. I h8 u."

I don't know, english works for me. But in regard to his post: He could've said it better, but he COULDN'T'VE said it any better. It's too bad. I came into this "discussion" hating you fucking guys. If I was at a party somewhere and some kid said he was a socialist, I don't care who was there, I would've fucking walked out. But you've (most of you) changed a lot of my prejudices, based on the convicitions of your arguments. I believe that all you are truly trying to do is end poverty and injustice and you really do care about people and it's not a power thing.

What the true FACT OF THE MATTER IS, though, the rest of the world (The US and her allies I guess, ouch I know.....) (and my credibility comes out of the fact I AM an outsider), or, all right, let's just say everyone I know at least, that sounds pretentious but stick with me here, looks down on commies and socialists as megalomaniacal, anti-religious, maniacs who want to take away our land and liberties and stick us all in communes to work and live in equal humility. And that kind of is..................the truth? Isn't it? More or less.

I mean, if you guys had your way, would any of us have fucking swimming pools? Or satellite TV? Or Valet parking? Because, fuck you, that's how the rest of the world thinks. We're scared that we won't. You can talk politics and economics all day, but what the majority of us really care about, is our Pro Wrestling and our microwave dinners. You take that away from us, or try to, and............ we'll bomb you and your children. I guess thats..........liberty.

This is going to piss a lot of people off. But I don't care. It's just how it is. I'm an American, and you don't like the conditons of where you live, then I think you should come here.

-AK

[RedCeltic]

You know AK: You sound like my dad ( no insult there)

He's one of those impoverished working class guys that has said to me many times, " Socialists are people that have all the best intentions with no results."

Well, you know... I'm sick to death of being compared to the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.. I don’t live there, I live in New York, so I can't be compared to their value of life... can I?

I'm a Democratic Socialist and member of the Socialist Party USA (http://www.sp-usa.org)

This may be shocking to you.. however not everyone who posts on che-lives believes in the same thing. And, as a matter of fact...I believe that I'm not the only person that calls himself a "Socialist" who is against communism.

Sometimes it can be difficult for those of us who lie in the gap between capitalism and communism to reply to any of the arguments.

The Ideals that I believe in where founded in the United States by Eugene V Debs. So... why can't you compare my beliefs to Stalinism? or even Marxist Leninism? Because We live in the US, and have nothing to do with that.


DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM:

The belief that the equality which socialism is designed to bring cannot be achieved without democracy. Unlike Social Democracy, Democratic Socialists are more Left-wing than centrist. Democratic Socialists are opposed to both Communism and capitalism, feeling that both systems have failed to emancipate the workers of the world from exploitation. During the Cold War, when the Social Democrats sided with the capitalist West and the Communists sided with the East, Democratic Socialists were pulled in the middle, because they saw both systems as evil in different ways. While the Soviet Union had political inequality, America had economic inequality. Perhaps the earliest large Democratic Socialist movement in America was the Socialist Party of America, which was founded in 1901 by Eugene V. Debs and his comrades. Today, perhaps the best-known American advocate of Democratic Socialism is Howard Zinn, columnist for The Progressive, author of A People’s History of the United States, and professor emiritus of Boston University. The largest Democratic Socialist groups are the Socialist Party USA and the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). There are also Democratic Socialists within the Greens USA. Other world Democratic Socialist parties include the Socialist Party of the Netherlands, the German PDS, the Australian DSP, and the Japanese New Socialist Party.



(Edited by RedCeltic at 4:11 am on July 4, 2002)


(Edited by RedCeltic at 4:14 am on July 4, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

Underneath the claims communists make, 'we what to end injustice and make sure everyone gets a equal opportunity at life', remains an insideous agenda. The want for something which was unearned, or a cut of another man's success is the true nature of the altruistic socialist. Believe me, these champions of the human condition seek to unrightfully aqcuire that which someone else has produced without the burden of payment. Whatever the reasons behind promoting ill gotten gains, the result is always the same. Basically, there are three types of people who promote such injustice. That being said, I will briefly decribe the three to you and describe there reasons.
First, you have the poor ignorant fool who has no concept of reality, with an opinion which is maliable. Naturally, someone lacking any type of critical thinking will remain suited for the lowest of jobs, and be among the lower classes. So, when a socialist offers him promises of a utopia, where everything is provided 'free' of charge, they are easily convinced. Secondly, is the man who obtained his position in society by ease and feels guilty for having so much while others have so little. Most of the time they ought to feel guilty, because they waste the good hand dealt to them by life. They spend money frivilously and consume more than they produce. The effect of such bafoonery remains the political activism which advocates state control of resources. Extremely critical of such people Marx called this type the 'utopian socialist'. Last of all, comes the man who knows the result of the political and economic system that they preach. Power mongers who wish to exploit the stupidity of the other two types of socialists, in order to overpower the free thinking innovators who are responsible for the advancement of science and technology. They see an opportunity to loot the wealth of a nation. The three must exist in equilibrium for the evil which is state capitalism to surface. Each of them are just as guilty as the others, because they share the responsibility for ringing in a system of injustice.
Whether socialism or communism is brought by violent revolution or by the slow self destruction off the democratic state, the results are astounding. Therefore. if you claim to be a democratic socialist, you should consider which of the two ideals that you value most. In economic terms, it could be said that a trade off exists, and the consumer must question which system offers the greater utility. Freedom or totalitarianism, those are the choices being considered in this forum.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 12:05 am on July 5, 2002)


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 11:27 am on July 5, 2002)

[American Kid]

I'm (big surprise) with my friend Norman on this one. Another unfortunate side effect is the bland mediocrity that the system would create. Personally, I don't revere rich people, but seeing what they have makes me want to work harder, to someday have it for myself. And I believe I will. Anyone can. It's what makes life interesting. Communism it seems to me, wants to negate all competition between people, economically. This goes against all what I believe human nature is made of. I'm not a total alpha male, but in many regards I'm very competetive. Whether it's as a writer, in a foot race, or playing ping pong, I want to kick someone's ass if I can. Communism wants to say,

"NEGATIVE COMRADE. SHARE RESOURCES. ALL MUST WORK FOR THE COMMON GOOD OF EACH OTHER. GET IN LINE. WIPE THAT SWEAT OFF YOUR BROW. HERE, PUT ON THESE BLACK PAJAMAS AND GET OUT IN THE FIELD. WHAT IS THAT COUNTERREVOLUTIONARY MUSIC YOUR ARE PLAYING IN YOUR WALK MAN? WE THINK YOU ARE A CANDIDATE FOR POLITICAL RE-EDUCATION. YOU ARE A FREE THINKER. YOU WILL LEARN THAT YOU ONLY NEED TO THINK FOR THE STATE. YOU WILL LEARN COMRADE. WE ARE NONE OF US DIFFERENT. WE ARE ALL EQUAL AND GET WHAT WE EACH NEED. NO MORE NO LESS. NOW GET OVER HERE WE'RE GOING TO THROW YOU IN A PIT."

Maybe I'm paraphrasing.

Maybe not. You look at all the shit in the world, and I understand the instinct to wince in disgust and want to wipe it all away and begin again, clean slate. But that's foolishly impossible. It'll never happen. It'll never work. Ask any person who lived in American suburbia circa the 1950's to see how much of a party that was.


-Kid

PS I like Norman because he edits his posts as much as I do.

[IzmSchism]

Stormin Norman,

You make a good argument against the sociolological makeup of a red state. My question back to you is how is your model any different when juxtaposed to a capitalist state?

The way I see it is there is no difference. Human nature is a condition likened to all political spectrums, there is just as much competition in a socialist state as there is in a capitalist state, the fact is there is more moral responsibility, and tighter regulatory control.

This could be an over statement, or generalization, but I think, as the Kid puts it, "But you've (most of you) changed a lot of my prejudices, based on the convicitions of your arguments. I believe that all you are truly trying to do is end poverty and injustice and you really do care about people and it's not a power thing." To roll off of his opinion, I feel he is right, alot of the people here that are ultra communist are sick of the abuse of power that is going on in the world, becasue smart, or minion or as guilty as people feel, the fact is the sweeping dominance of the few over the many is growing greater and greater, and as much as you value your free market and global market, the less and less of a voice you have, perhaps on this BB, but in real life, phat chance. The reason so many kats here are so openly against this system is for the same reason you are against the communist system. It is swinging to far to the right.

I just don't see the relevence in your breakdown of democratic socialism. Maybe I need some more splainin'

dogger out.

[Stormin Norman]

IzmSchism,

You must excuse me, because sometimes I assume that others are on the same page as me. For example, I thought it was obvious that the thinking I referred to pertained to those on the left end of the spectrum. This thinking does not exist in all people, and was not meant to describe human nature. The true human spirit runs counter to the fundamental ideals followed by the communist/socialist.
The typical capitalist would never agree to live by anyone else's means than his or her own, or suggest that anyone else has that right. I know that you are going to mention corporate welfare, so I will deal with it now instead of answering a follow up question. The men in business who accept taxpayer dollars as a means of making a profit do not fit into this category. They too are socialist, for they claim by taking a government bailout that the good of all humanity will be served. Doesn't this sound typical of the promises made by bleeding heart liberals? This type of businessman is very similar to the ‘utopian socialist’ and generally shares the same economic levels. In order to survive in a competitive cycle they must have friends in government to protect them from their failed attempts, much like the poor man who accepts his welfare check. Both types of welfare exist to prevent the receiver from suffering a decline in their living conditions. The difference is the CEO's standard of living happens to be quite a bit more extravagant. If these corporate vultures were allowed to exist in an environment that was devoid of government intervention, they would cease to exist. They are not the ones who promote advancement or innovation. Many times they take an otherwise good company and thoroughly destroy it. They mismanage it with incompetence, bleed it dry of all profits, and proceed to ask their friends in government to help them continue to live their lavish lifestyles. The market would be better served if these companies were allowed to fold tent and make way for a better competitor. This flaw in the market is a symptom of the pseudo-socialist system that persists in America's economy today. Good examples of this would include the airline industry and Amtrak bailouts.
The ideal capitalist can take many forms. I will name a few and you can compare the differences in thinking between socialism/communism and the man who believes in free enterprise. Free enterprise is for those who believe in their own ability. Those who subscribe may be subjected to any subsistence level. From dirt poor to extremely wealthy, the principles of free enterprise abound in all walks of life.
The poor man who believes in free enterprise knows that he is working hard toward a goal, and that America’s environment will eventually help him reach his end goal. Those who are in his economic situation, who would rather work to achieve their own ends than demand the government automatically provide for all of their needs, understand that these social programs have to be paid for somehow. They understand that such programs hurt his or her net take home pay, and ultimately are detrimental to their life goal. Every dollar this person is able to earn aides them in their own upward mobility.
Next look at the rich capitalist business owner. His attitude is much the same, but the only difference is the fact that he has been able to succeed at his ventures. It is likely that this man was once the idealistic lower class citizen who refused to give up on his own ability. This is the ultimate success story for the poor. Many of these entrepreneurs share a common characteristic, those being, backgrounds complete with adversity. He is the man who overcame whatever challenges he faced, and was still able to build his own empire. This is the self made man, who provides jobs to others. Without him the poor capitalist would lack a place to start working to achieve their goals.
Let’s not forget about engineers. They forgo many hours they could be drinking, having sex, or being the typical college student in order to obtain a high paying job. Not only do engineers make good money, but also they invent and innovate. Their creations are taken for granted by morons who think these marvels exist by some miracle and do not realize the hours of painstaking work that went into their design. These values are not specific to the engineer. Many professionals make the necessary trade off that equates to a successful life.
In brief, the true capitalist values hard work, responsibility, and good ideas. He makes no demands on his fellow man and lives by his own means.
Compare the general traits of the capitalist to that of the communist. The capitalist is a creator. Whether he creates his own opportunity, jobs for others that allow them to raise families, or the processes and products of technology and industry; his achievements should be recognized and respected. The communist is a destroyer, a worm with no concept of reality. They expect the means of subsistence and production to exist solely by way of their need. The starvation, murder, and theft that occurred in the name of communism are a tribute the irresponsibility of communist’s whimsical world view.
Next time that you are cursing the man who is enjoying his boat try to ignore the monetary cost, and imagine the actual cost to the man who owns it. Now think of the hours of enjoyment that this man derives from such entertainment. What do you suppose will happen to your means of subsistence and modes of production when you take that right away from man?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:21 pm on July 8, 2002)

[Ymir]

Stormin Norman...
IzmSchizm did not say that you accused human nature of anything, that was his own view.

[Stormin Norman]

Ism,

You should answer to my reply. Give me some feed back. Tell me the flaws in my thinking. Why do you believe capitalism promotes ascribed status? How is anything but self-determination the proper way to live? Help me to understand your logic.

[Josip Broz Tito]

The type of communism we all were awered of fell long time ago. The real qeustion is: Did the idea of communism fell? Hell no !!
Strugle continues !