"Call Girls at Nursing Home Fuel Debate in Denmark"

[Unicorn]

When a male resident at Kildegaarden nursing home in Denmark made an indecent sexual proposal to a member of the staff, the home's director, Inger Marie Kristensen, told a nurse to telephone for a prostitute.

``There was a considerable change in his demeanor after the escort girl had paid him a visit,'' Kristensen said in an interview. ``We do this for our clients just as we offer them other services that they need as human beings.''

Kildegaarden, located 100 miles (160 kilometers) west of Copenhagen in Skanderborg, has about 100 residents, including victims of Alzheimer's disease and strokes. Nurses arranged visits by call girls three times in the past three years.

While Welfare Minister Karen Jespersen says Denmark's 98 municipalities are free to let nurses call prostitutes, some lawmakers are stepping up efforts to pull women out of the profession, which has been legal in the country since 1999.

``I don't want to contribute to keeping this industry in business,'' said Mie Bergmann, an elected official with the Social-Liberal Party in Skanderborg, who led a failed vote to end prostitution at Kildegaarden.

Denmark is doubling spending to 80 million kroner ($17 million) over the next three years to get women out of the sex trade. The government estimates that 6,000 women work in the profession in the Scandinavian country of 5.5 million.

`Discriminating'

Copenhagen forbids contact with call girls in nursing homes. Other towns don't publicize their policies.

In a poll posted last week on the Web site of national broadcaster DR, 46 percent of 1,982 readers said nursing home staff should be able to organize visits by prostitutes, 45 percent were against the practice and 8 percent were undecided. A margin of error wasn't given.

Denmark's Society for Women started a campaign in March called ``Take a Position, Man'' urging men to sign up at a Web site to protest against prostitution. So far, 1,887 women and men, including the editor-in-chief of newspaper Politiken Thoeger Seidenfaden, have signed.

The Copenhagen-based Danish Sex-worker Association was established last month in a bid to protect the industry. The leader, who gives her name only as Susanne on the association's Web site, said prostitutes ``often'' visit Danish elderly homes.

``To forbid vulnerable customers from obtaining the services of a legal business is discriminating, both against the sex workers and the people who need help to get the services,'' Susanne said in an e-mailed response to questions.

Ban Proposal

An increasing number of Danes oppose prostitution, a December 2006 opinion poll by newspaper Politiken showed. Forty- two percent of 1,180 said prostitution was unacceptable compared with 25 percent four years earlier. A majority of 54 percent approved of prostitution, compared with 66 percent in 2002.

``I don't want a society where some people are used as a vehicle for others to live out their desires,'' Ozlem Sara Cekic, a Danish Turkish member of parliament for the Socialist People's Party, said in comments posted on her Web site.

The Danish People's Party, which backs the minority Liberal- Conservative government in parliament, said earlier this year it may join opposition lawmakers to form a majority in favor of a ban on the sex trade.

The parliamentary committee for social affairs announced this year that it's planning a trip to neighboring Sweden to investigate how that country has handled legislation it passed in 1999 that criminalized paying for sex.

For Kristensen, residents at the Kildegaarden home have rights under the current laws, no matter how old they are. And Danes are getting older. According to the Danish government Web site, on Jan. 1, 2007, 715 people were 100 years of age or more.

``Basically this is a matter of respecting the elderly and their needs,'' she said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aVUcop17mg7s

This is a difficult question. Prostitution exploits women but discrimination against the elderly should not be allowed.

[Luís Henrique]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aVUcop17mg7s

This is a difficult question. Prostitution exploits women but discrimination against the elderly should not be allowed.

Nurses are also exploited.

Luís Henrique

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Agreed. I believe that the notion that prostitutes suffer a more accentuated or more objectionable form of oppression is the fruit of paternalistic myths regarding women's purity and defenselessness.

[Unicorn]

Agreed. I believe that the notion that prostitutes suffer a more accentuated or more objectionable form of oppression is the fruit of paternalistic myths regarding women's purity and defenselessness.
Do you consider prostitution just regular wage-slavery?

[cappin]

I think it's ok. I no longer believe in sexual purity so pipe cleaners in the pipe represent nothing more, and if you can get paid for such a simple task, why not?

Except if I were to become a prostitute and a man over the age of 100 asked for my services I wouldn't have a second thought in denying business...

Older men are one thing; living dead ones another.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Do you consider prostitution just regular wage-slavery?


In brief, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[Unicorn]

In brief, that's exactly what I'm saying.
I see prostitution as a problem created by the capitalist society. The bourgeois encourages social conditions which drive working-class women to prostitution. Then the bourgeois can use women's bodies to their own benefit. The humilation of being a prostitute harms women psychologically and I thus consider prostitution more exploitative than ordinary wage labour.

[cappin]

But there is always the fact that prostitution has been going on since the dawn of time. It should be more humiliating to the person having to pay for sex; they want sexual pleasure while the other person wants their money. I say "person" because we must keep in mind that there does exist male/transsexual prostitution.:lol:

[Unicorn]

But there is always the fact that prostitution has been going on since the dawn of time.
Yes but you need to understand this dialectically. In the socialist stage prostitution does not exist anymore or is rare. The first socialist state was the USSR in the latter half of the 20th century. When the society has a less developed mode of production prostitution is of course a problem.

[cappin]

Prostitution is a problem anywhere there are men who need to get laid and willing partners when bribed.

[Unicorn]

Prostitution is a problem anywhere there are men who need to get laid and willing partners when bribed.
It wasn't in the USSR.

[cappin]

Then I guess they had really really sad and unsatisfied horny people.

[jake williams]

I think this is actually a really good idea, provided that the woman's okay with it, and again, there are issues of economics. There isn't a lot else these guys are going to get, and if it has the potential to drastically improve their lives, and the woman's okay with it, I think it's hard to argue against it.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Agreed. I believe that the notion that prostitutes suffer a more accentuated or more objectionable form of oppression is the fruit of paternalistic myths regarding women's purity and defenselessness.
I agree with this as should any leftist, but I'd like to point out that there is a difference between "paternalistic myths regarding women's purity and defenselessness" and a woman's absolute right not to have her body violated sexually if she does not wish to. If a woman does not wish to have sexual intercourse she is retaining an integrity (in the bodily sense rather than the moral sense) the violation of which is an extremely heinous crime. I say this because without that distinction, rape would not exist as an offence seperate to assault.

[Luís Henrique]

Do you consider prostitution just regular wage-slavery?

No, but I consider wage-slavery just regular prostitution...

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Prostitution is a problem anywhere there are men who need to get laid

Women also pay for sex, even if not so often.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

If a woman does not wish to have sexual intercourse she is retaining an integrity (in the bodily sense rather than the moral sense) the violation of which is an extremely heinous crime.

The same goes for men.

Luís Henrique

[cappin]

Women also pay for sex, even if not so often.

Luís Henrique
Ew, don't I know it. I wonder what kind of woman can't get laid for free, and do I want the answer?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

The same goes for men.

Luís Henrique
Very true.

[Unicorn]

The same goes for men.
Men can't be raped.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Men can't be raped.
They can still be violated sexually.

Edit: actually you're just wrong, common law rape excludes the rape of men but most countries now have a statutory offence of rape that would include sexual attacks on men.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Women have been charged with raping men. I think it happened somewhere in Scandinavia where a guy woke up to find a woman fellating him without his consent, so she was charged with rape.

[Luís Henrique]

Ew, don't I know it. I wonder what kind of woman can't get laid for free, and do I want the answer?

Old women? Disabled women? Very ugly women?

Women who intend to be in command of the situation?

Women who feel curious about it?

Lesbians?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Men can't be raped.

Juridically it may have another name, but anal rape is as much abusive as adjective-free rape.

Luís Henrique

[Awful Reality]

Men can't be raped.

Oh? Why not? Thousands of men are raped every year. Just very, very few report it.

[Unicorn]

Oh? Why not? Thousands of men are raped every year. Just very, very few report it.
Men can't be raped by women. ;)

Sorry, I forgot to add two words.

[Lector Malibu]

Men can't be raped.

What rock do you live under?

[Kami]

Men can't be raped by women. ;)

Sorry, I forgot to add two words.


Congratulations, words added, and you're still wrong, as, for example Dr. Rosenpenis's post above. Anyway, we're defining rape as a sexual act commited without express consent given, right? just how is it not possible for a man to be raped (by a woman of otherwise)?

[Unicorn]

Women have been charged with raping men. I think it happened somewhere in Scandinavia where a guy woke up to find a woman fellating him without his consent, so she was charged with rape.
I haven't heard of that kind of case. Anyway, that was frivolous justice.

[Unicorn]

Congratulations, words added, and you're still wrong, as, for example Dr. Rosenpenis's post above. Anyway, we're defining rape as a sexual act commited without express consent given, right? just how is it not possible for a man to be raped (by a woman of otherwise)?
No, rape is defined as forcing someone to sexual intercourse. If a man does not want sex he can't get an erection. Without erection sexual intercourse is impossible. Sexual acts other than intercourse don't qualify as rape.

[Kami]

So are you telling me that a woman has a greater right not to be sexually violated than a man? Might you explain your reasoning here?

Edit:

No, rape is defined as forcing someone to sexual intercourse. If a man does not want sex he can't get an erection. Without erection sexual intercourse is impossible. Sexual acts other than intercourse don't qualify as rape.
And I suppose a man cannot, under any circumstances, be aroused (or have an erection for any other reason) and not give consent to a sexual act? Sit me in front of porn, and I'm hard. Doesn't mean I consent to anything.

[Lector Malibu]

No, rape is defined as forcing someone to sexual intercourse. If a man does not want sex he can't get an erection. Without erection sexual intercourse is impossible. Sexual acts other than intercourse don't qualify as rape.


ictionary: (http://www.answers.com/library/Dictionary-cid-67216) rape1 (rāp) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.tr.v., raped, rap·ing, rapes.
To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
To seize and carry off by force.
To plunder or pillage.[Middle English, from rapen, to rape, from Old French raper, to abduct, from Latin rapere, to seize.]
raper rap'er n.

Hey Unicorn there's the definition of rape. It involves alot more than just intercourse and it's definition is actually being changed further to cover more abuses

Once again you don't know what your talking about.

I win

[Unicorn]

So are you telling me that a woman has a greater right not to be sexually violated than a man?
No.



Might you explain your reasoning here?
Different sex crimes should have different penalties. If a man gropes the breasts of a woman against her will she forces her to a sexual act but he is not guilty of rape. That would be a lesser crime.

[Unicorn]

They can still be violated sexually.

Edit: actually you're just wrong, common law rape excludes the rape of men but most countries now have a statutory offence of rape that would include sexual attacks on men.
It is irrelevant how rape is defined in bourgeois jurisdictions in which the law is just a tool used to maintain a class society. In the Soviet criminal law rape was specified to be a crime committed by a man upon a female. That is how it should be in the criminal code of a socialist state. Homosexuals and females who supposedly commit "rapes" (I am favorable towards using that word only because "sodomy" has homophobic connotations) sociologists have shown that male-on-female rape as a phenomenon has very different causes and thus should be codified as a separate offense.

[Kami]

It is irrelevant how rape is defined in bourgeois jurisdictions in which the law is just a tool used to maintain a class society. In the Soviet criminal law rape was specified to be a crime committed by a man upon a female.

That is equally irrelivant and arbitrary, the soviet criminal law was no more divinely dictated than any other.


Different sex crimes should have different penalties. If a man gropes the breasts of a woman against her will she forces her to a sexual act but he is not guilty of rape. That would be a lesser crime.
Even assuming this; if one is restrained and forced into intercourse against one's will, Would this not be rape still? very concievably of a man by a woman, too.

[Unicorn]

That is equally irrelivant and arbitrary, the soviet criminal law was no more divinely dictated than any other.
Sectarian slander against Lenin. A criminal code created by the working class reflects the interests of the working class. That is something all communists agree on.



Even assuming this; if one is restrained and forced into intercourse against one's will, Would this not be rape still? very concievably of a man by a woman, too.
That is very improbable because generally speaking men are physically stronger than women and women have shown no desire to force men to intercourse. It would also in my opinion be impossible because men in that kind of situation would not have an erection.

[Kami]

Sectarian slander against Lenin. A criminal code created by the working class reflects the interests of the working class. That is something all communists agree on.Don't make me laugh, no law is infallible, and Lenin certainly wasn't.


That is very improbable because generally speaking men are physically stronger than women and women have shown no desire to force men to intercourse. It would also in my opinion be impossible because men in that kind of situation would not have an erection.Improbable I might concede, but it is possible, and from what I've read, has happened.
As for men not having an erection, an erection does not always signify pleasure, and It certainly isn't always within the control of the man. The obvious one would be drug-induced.

[Unicorn]

Don't make me laugh, no human law is infallible, and Lenin certainly wasn't.
I was responding to a person who used bourgeois laws as the justification of his opinion.



Improbable I might concede, but it is possible, and from what I've read, has happened.
As for men not having an erection, an erection does not always signify pleasure, and It certainly isn't always within the control of the man. The obvious one would be drug-induced.
Even then motivations and consequences of that kind of act would be very different from a male-on-female rape and female-on-male sexual violence should therefore be punished as a separate offense.

[RHIZOMES]

Even then motivations and consequences of that kind of act would be very different from a male-on-female rape and female-on-male sexual violence should therefore be punished as a separate offense.

But what exactly is different from a man forcing a woman into sexual intercouse and a woman forcing a man into sexual intercourse? Other than that it's easier to do?

[Luís Henrique]

No, rape is defined as forcing someone to sexual intercourse. If a man does not want sex he can't get an erection. Without erection sexual intercourse is impossible. Sexual acts other than intercourse don't qualify as rape.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Silicon_Dildo.jpg

A friend of mine, who is lesbian, used to say that the problem with men is that they think that a phallus substitutes for imagination...

Luís Henrique

[Lector Malibu]

I was responding to a person who used bourgeois laws as the justification of his opinion.

If your talking to me , your still wrong !

[Unicorn]

A friend of mine, who is lesbian, used to say that the problem with men is that they think that a phallus substitutes for imagination...

Luís Henrique
In my opinion penetration with a dildo should not qualify as rape. In many jurisdictions this is the case.

[Lector Malibu]

In my opinion penetration with a dildo should not qualify as rape. In many jurisdictions this is the case.


And say it were to happen to you , without your consent

Would you still maintain the same argument?

[Unicorn]

And say it were to happen to you , without your consent

Would you still maintain the same argument?
Of course. But for that kind of sexual violence the perpetrator should be punished.

[Lector Malibu]

Of course. But for that kind of sexual violence the perpetrator should be punished.

People who commit such acts (the ones that get caught) are punished.

I still don't understand how you can say that you don't consider a sexual violation of your body without your consent rape.

[Kami]

So, because it's not organic, it's an entirely different? I doubt very much the distinction is really made by victims. "What's that he's stic... oh, it's plastic, no worries"

[Unicorn]

People who commit such acts (the ones that get caught) are punished.

I still don't understand how you can say that you don't consider a sexual violation of your body without your consent rape.
The name of that crime has traditionally been forced sodomy. I think it could be renamed but it is still not rape.

[Lector Malibu]

The name of that crime has traditionally been forced sodomy. I think it could be renamed but it is still not rape.

Oh but it is,

Western common-law countries, as well as civil-law countries, have now legislated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation) against this exception. They now include spousal rape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_rape) (vaginal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina) intercourse), and acts of sexual violence, such as forced anal intercourse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_intercourse) which were traditionally dealt with under sodomy laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law), in their definitions of "rape".

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_about_rape


I win

[Unicorn]

I win
You don't know a damn about Marxist jurisprudence. The Soviet law and Russian law today specifies that rape is an offense committed by a man against a woman.

[Lector Malibu]

You don't know a damn about Marxist jurisprudence. The Soviet law and Russian law today specifies that rape is an offense committed by a man against a woman.

We are not talking about Marxist jurisprudence. We are talking about rape and the definition of.

[Jazzratt]

You don't know a damn about Marxist jurisprudence. The Soviet law and Russian law today specifies that rape is an offense committed by a man against a woman.

Yeah, the Soviet Law is stupid, cupcake.

As Kami pointed out it makes no odds to the victim whether what s/he is being penetrated with is made of plastic of flesh it's still the same experience. And even if you want to argue the toss over that one the Soviet law is still fucking kooky - what about male/male rape or woman-on-man rape (where the woman isn't using a foriegn object.)?

[Awful Reality]

Interestingly enough, there are many prostitutes who do it because of choice, in that they find it exciting or whatever be the reason. So I think that a socialist society shouldn't outlaw prostitution: most prostitutes would be gone for lack of necessity, but some would remain.