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Dejavu
16th April 2008, 16:13
This a letter correspondence between two champions of liberty the world has seen, Lord Acton and the Honorable General Robert E. Lee.(Confederate Southern General.)

From Acton to Lee after the War between the States and then Lee's response:


Bologna
November 4, 1866

Sir,

The very kind letter which Mrs. Lee wrote to my wife last winter encouraged me to hope that you will forgive my presuming to address you, and that you will not resent as an intrusion a letter from an earnest and passionate lover of the cause whose glory and whose strength you were.

I have been requested to furnish private counsel in American affairs for the guidance of the editors of a weekly Review which is to begin at the New Year, and which will be conducted by men who are followers of Mr. Gladstone. You are aware, no doubt, that Mr. Gladstone was in the minority of Lord Palmerston's cabinet who wished to accept the French Emperor's proposal to mediate in the American war.

The reason of the confidence shown in my advice is simply the fact that I formerly traveled in America, and that I afterwards followed the progress of the four years' contest as closely and as keenly as it was possible to do with the partial and unreliable information that reached us. In the momentous questions which have arisen since you sheathed the sword, I have endeavoured to conform my judgment to your own as well as I could ascertain it from the report of your evidence, from the few English travelers who enjoyed the privilege of speaking with you, and especially from General Beauregard, who spoke, as I understood, your sentiments as well as his own. My travels in America never led me south of Maryland, and the only friends to whom I can look for instruction, are Northerners, mostly of Webster's school.

In my emergency, urged by the importance of the questions at issue in the United States, and by the peril of misguided public opinion between our two countries, I therefore seek to appeal to southern authorities, and venture at once to proceed to Headquarters.

If, Sir, you will consent to entertain my request, and will inform me of the light in which you would wish the current politics of America to be understood, I can pledge myself that the new Review shall follow the course which you prescribe and that any communication with which you may honor me shall be kept in strictest confidence, and highly treasured by me. Even should you dismiss my request as unwarranted, I trust you will remember it only as an attempt to break through the barrier of false reports and false sympathies which encloses the views of my countrymen.

It cannot have escaped you that much of the good will felt in England towards the South, so far as it was not simply the tribute of astonishment and admiration won by your campaigns, was neither unselfish nor sincere. It sprang partly from an exultant belief in the hope that America would be weakened by the separation, and from terror at the remote prospect of Farragut appearing in the channel and Sherman landing in Ireland.

I am anxious that you should distinguish the feeling which drew me aware toward your cause and your career, and which now guides my pen, from that thankless and unworthy sympathy.

Without presuming to decide the purely legal question, on which it seems evident to me from Madison's and Hamilton's papers that the Fathers of the Constitution were not agreed, I saw in State Rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy. The institutions of your Republic have not exercised on the old world the salutary and liberating influence which ought to have belonged to them, by reason of those defects and abuses of principle which the Confederate Constitution was expressly and wisely calculated to remedy. I believed that the example of that great Reform would have blessed all the races of mankind by establishing true freedom purged of the native dangers and disorders of Republics. Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo.

General Beauregard confirmed to me a report which was in the papers, that you are preparing a narrative of your campaigns. I sincerely trust that it is true, and that the loss you were said to have sustained at the evacuation of Richmond has not deprived you of the requisite materials. European writers are trying to construct that terrible history with the information derived from one side only. I have before me an elaborate work by a Prussian officer named Sander. It is hardly possible that future publications can be more honorable to the reputation of your army and your own. His feelings are strongly Federal, his figures, especially in estimating your forces, are derived from Northern journals, and yet his book ends by becoming an enthusiastic panegyric on your military skill. It will impress you favourably towards the writer to know that he dwells with particular detail and pleasure on your operations against Meade when Longstreet was absent, in the autumn of 1863.

But I have heard the best Prussian military critics regret that they had not the exact data necessary for a scientific appreciation of your strategy, and certainly the credit due to the officers who served under you can be distributed and justified by no hand but your own.

If you will do me the honor to write to me, letters will reach me addressed Sir J. Acton, Hotel [Serry?], Rome. Meantime I remain, with sentiments stronger than respect, Sir,

~ Your faithful servant
John Dalberg Acton





Lexington, Vir.,
15 Dec. 1866

Sir,

Although your letter of the 4th ulto. has been before me some days unanswered, I hope you will not attribute it to a want of interest in the subject, but to my inability to keep pace with my correspondence. As a citizen of the South I feel deeply indebted to you for the sympathy you have evinced in its cause, and am conscious that I owe your kind consideration of myself to my connection with it. The influence of current opinion in Europe upon the current politics of America must always be salutary; and the importance of the questions now at issue the United States, involving not only constitutional freedom and constitutional government in this country, but the progress of universal liberty and civilization, invests your proposition with peculiar value, and will add to the obligation which every true American must owe you for your efforts to guide that opinion aright. Amid the conflicting statements and sentiments in both countries, it will be no easy task to discover the truth, or to relieve it from the mass of prejudice and passion, with which it has been covered by party spirit. I am conscious the compliment conveyed in your request for my opinion as to the light in which American politics should be viewed, and had I the ability, I have not the time to enter upon a discussion, which was commenced by the founders of the constitution and has been continued to the present day. I can only say that while I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it. I need not refer one so well acquainted as you are with American history, to the State papers of Washington and Jefferson, the representatives of the federal and democratic parties, denouncing consolidation and centralization of power, as tending to the subversion of State Governments, and to despotism. The New England states, whose citizens are the fiercest opponents of the Southern states, did not always avow the opinions they now advocate. Upon the purchase of Louisiana by Mr. Jefferson, they virtually asserted the right of secession through their prominent men; and in the convention which assembled at Hartford in 1814, they threatened the disruption of the Union unless the war should be discontinued. The assertion of this right has been repeatedly made by their politicians when their party was weak, and Massachusetts, the leading state in hostility to the South, declares in the preamble to her constitution, that the people of that commonwealth "have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free sovereign and independent state, and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not, or may hereafter be by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled." Such has been in substance the language of other State governments, and such the doctrine advocated by the leading men of the country for the last seventy years. Judge Chase, the present Chief Justice of the U.S., as late as 1850, is reported to have stated in the Senate, of which he was a member, that he "knew of no remedy in case of the refusal of a state to perform its stipulations," thereby acknowledging the sovereignty and independence of state action. But I will not weary you with this unprofitable discussion. Unprofitable because the judgment of reason has been displaced by the arbitrament of war, waged for the purpose as avowed of maintaining the union of the states. If, therefore, the result of the war is to be considered as having decided that the union of the states is inviolable and perpetual under the constitution, it naturally follows that it is as incompetent for the general government to impair its integrity by the exclusion of a state, as for the states to do so by secession; and that the existence and rights of a state by the constitution are as indestructible as the union itself. The legitimate consequence then must be the perfect equality of rights of all the states; the exclusive right of each to regulate its internal affairs under rules established by the Constitution, and the right of each state to prescribe for itself the qualifications of suffrage. The South has contended only for the supremacy of the constitution, and the just administration of the laws made in pursuance to it. Virginia to the last made great efforts to save the union, and urged harmony and compromise. Senator Douglass, in his remarks upon the compromise bill recommended by the committee of thirteen in 1861, stated that every member from the South, including Messrs. Toombs and Davis, expressed their willingness to accept the proposition of Senator Crittenden from Kentucky, as a final settlement of the controversy, if sustained by the republican party, and that the only difficulty in the way of an amicable adjustment was with the republican party. Who then is responsible for the war? Although the South would have preferred any honorable compromise to the fratricidal war which has taken place, she now accepts in good faith its constitutional results, and receives without reserve the amendment which has already been made to the constitution for the extinction of slavery. That is an event that has been long sought, though in a different way, and by none has it been more earnestly desired than by citizens of Virginia. In other respects I trust that the constitution may undergo no change, but that it may be handed down to succeeding generations in the form we received it from our forefathers. The desire I feel that the Southern states should possess the good opinion of one whom I esteem as highly as yourself, has caused me to extend my remarks farther than I intended, and I fear it has led me to exhaust your patience. If what I have said should serve to give any information as regards American politics, and enable you to enlighten public opinion as to the true interests of this distracted country, I hope you will pardon its prolixity.

In regard to your inquiry as to my being engaged in preparing a narrative of the campaigns in Virginia, I regret to state that I progress slowly in the collection of the necessary documents for its completion. I particularly feel the loss of the official returns showing the small numbers with which the battles were fought. I have not seen the work by the Prussian officer you mention and therefore cannot speak of his accuracy in this respect.– With sentiments of great respect, I remain your obt. servant,


R.E. Lee.

Demogorgon
16th April 2008, 20:20
Lovely hypocricy there. He let thousands upon thousands die so that the States would have the "right" to enforce slavery and that slave-owners would not have the tyranical Government try to take their honestly acquired slaves away from them.

But of course, he says now he is beaten, he never personally liked Slavery. He just wanted to get rid of it another way.

A way that would have kept people enslaved for decades more. And you call this man a champion of liberty?

Dejavu
16th April 2008, 20:37
Lee was always against the institution of slavery and genuinely desired to keep the Union together until Washington overstepped its limits and dictated to the states what they can and cannot do ( its supposed to work oppositely by law.) Slavery was already dying out in the south as there were more free black men in the South than in the North actually freed by Southern courts. ( See the Dred Scot incident and how the Federal government overturned a Southern state's judgement and put Dred Scott back into servitude.)

Often vagrant blacks (freed) in the South would find easy employment with their former masters and actually work together with White workers in agriculture ( since its well-known that only a minority of Southern Whites were plantation or slave owners.)
Vagrant Blacks in the North were just thrown into prisons or forced to serve in the military and go kill Indians. Lincoln himself didn't like blacks and there are quotes showing he was a supremacist more than General Lee ever could be. Slavery as an institution wasn't challenged by the North but rather its function in added representation in the South for the entire Union and that representation was challenged over the new territories.

Slavery didn't require a war for its abolishment as capitalism was putting slavery out of business quickly in other parts of the world. The British abolished slavery without a war because it was inferior to the superior productive ability of capitalism.

Oh, Cherokee Indians also joined the South. ;)



Notable abolitionists like Lysandar Spooner also sympathized with the South as they saw the increase in Federal power would have ever lasting consequences like taking the U.S. into two world wars costing the lives of millions.

Schrödinger's Cat
17th April 2008, 02:56
Lee was always against the institution of slaveryBeing opposed to slavery means nothing unless you take action against the filthy institution. Lee was a decent man for his times, but the fetishism some Southerners have for the lost cause is nauseating. It's one complaint I have with living in this area.


until Washington overstepped its limits and dictated to the states what they can and cannot doShow me where, from 1860 on, the national government went any further than it had in previous years. Southern apologists like you deserve to be thrown back in time in sable skin. The issue which brought the war on was the economy, specifically tariffs and slavery, as indicated by Southerners themselves - and the Confederate Constitution.

We appeal to the women of the land. If they would keep our fair South free from the curse of negro equality; would keep forever the slave in the kitchen and cabin, and out of the parlor; would wish a national Capitol, where they will not be elbowed by negroes in the galleries of its Senate, and see negro delegates, from Canada and elsewhere, sitting with the dignitaries of the land; if they would avoid that worse than Egyptian curse of flies, the vast population of impudent free negroes, occupying the pavements, and getting the best seats everywhere; if they (the mothers of the State) have sons who can vote, let them record their names on the roll of liberty to-day; if the daughters have brothers or friends who hesitate, let them give them a blue rosette, a smile, and a ticket to—VOTE FOR SECESSION.

Had the Union started out with competent generals, your fantasies would have been crushed faster than a bug underneath my thumb.

Even more heinous than "Washington overstepping its limits" was the Mexican-American war, where Southerners pushed for an unethical war against Mexico just to satisfy the Manifest Destiny.


Slavery was already dying out in the south as there were more free black men in the South than in the North actually freed by Southern courts. (
Irrelevant. Some states were moving towards recognizing the "partial personhood" aspect of slavery by disallowing abuse of slaves beyond a certain point. Your position still would have kept slavery intact beyond 1865.


Lincoln himself didn't like blacks and there are quotes showing he was a supremacist more than General Lee ever could be.That makes Lee's case evermore hypocritical. Rights are perceived, but certainly most liberty-minded individuals recognize the inherit problems with slavery. No body of legislators, whether they work within the law or not, should be protected if it defends any type of slavery: sex, chattel, or economic.

You talk as if all of this basic history knowledge is new information (Lincoln was a racist! Lee didn't like slavery! The North wasn't utopia for blacks). Perchance, when you were studying the Civil War, did you ever learn that Marx accurately predicted the war from start to end - and indeed defended the country's unity while European papers called for foreign powers to intervene on part of the South and break apart the "American experiment?" Marx also wrote a letter praising the abolition of slavery, and he organized a campaign to boycott cotton picked by slaves.


Vagrant Blacks in the North were just thrown into prisons or forced to serve in the military and go kill Indians.The South also argued wage slavery was worse than chattel slavery. I don't see you defending that position. :laugh:


Slavery didn't require a war for its abolishment as capitalism was putting slavery out of business quickly in other parts of the world. As Marx predicted, no less. He predicted the weakening affect of the agrarian economy, supported by rich land owners, would lose to the bourgeoisie. Due to the country's geography and economic situation, it was close to inevitable.


The British abolished slavery without a war because it was inferior to the superior productive ability of capitalism.The British isles didn't have a large slave population to begin with. Their source of labor dependency came from the colonies, whereas the United States remained relatively isolationist.


Notable abolitionists like Lysandar Spooner also sympathized with the South as they saw the increase in Federal power would have ever lasting consequences like taking the U.S. into two world wars costing the lives of millions.You (incorrectly) presume that someone opposed to the South automatically finds the opposite ideals on every situation wonderful. That's very immature.

Robert
17th April 2008, 04:02
the fetishism some Southerners have for the lost cause is nauseating. It's one complaint I have with living in this area.

Do you really witness this "fetishism" regularly or frequently? How does it manifest itself? An occasional rebel yell at a Marshall Tucker concert, or something more endemic?

Some southerners are less nostalgic for the plantation than they are touchy about the slack jawed, interbred yokel stereotype they witness on TV and the movies. Not that very many can trace their ancestry to any southern aristocrat anyway. Most are just, how can I put it? Slack-jawed ...

Kidding!

Demogorgon
17th April 2008, 04:18
Do you really witness this "fetishism" regularly or frequently? How does it manifest itself? An occasional rebel yell at a Marshall Tucker concert, or something more endemic?

Some southerners are less nostalgic for the plantation than they are touchy about the slack jawed, interbred yokel stereotype they witness on TV and the movies. Not that very many can trace their ancestry to any southern aristocrat anyway. Most are just, how can I put it? Slack-jawed ...

Kidding!
I have to say that much as I love visiting such parts of the US ad seeing family again that I do not often get to see (due to the inconvenient position of the Atlantic) I do see signs of Confederate fetishism everywhere. I guess it is something you simply get used to over time. But from a European perspective (where we do not dee confederate symbolism very often) it can be quite shocking.

Os Cangaceiros
17th April 2008, 08:01
Often vagrant blacks (freed) in the South would find easy employment with their former masters and actually work together with White workers in agriculture ( since its well-known that only a minority of Southern Whites were plantation or slave owners.)

What?

The sharecropping that happened in the South after the war was almost as bad as slavery. Black people often had to ask their employer's permision if they could even leave the plantation. As far as Lee in concerned, the man was opposed to slavery, but chose to fight for his home state of Virginia. I'd hardly say that he's a "champion of liberty", in any case.

While Lysander Spooner wrote about the right of seccession in "No Treason", lets not forget that he also wrote about taking arms against slave owners to end slavery (although obviously not in a state sanctioned manner; probably in more of a John Brown kinda way.)

Schrödinger's Cat
17th April 2008, 13:53
I'd hardly say that he's a "champion of liberty", in any case.Take heed: you're talking to a walking contradiction. Anarcho-capitalists have such a warped sense of freedom and liberty that they often choose to side with the Southern cause, even if it means backing chattel slavery.


Do you really witness this "fetishism" regularly or frequently? How does it manifest itself? An occasional rebel yell at a Marshall Tucker concert, or something more endemic?

Some southerners are less nostalgic for the plantation than they are touchy about the slack jawed, interbred yokel stereotype they witness on TV and the movies. Not that very many can trace their ancestry to any southern aristocrat anyway. Most are just, how can I put it? Slack-jawed ...

Kidding!I've heard it at work, Thanksgiving dinner, July 4th concert. I'll also see at least one confederate flag per week.

It is, quite simply, pathetic.

Dean
17th April 2008, 13:57
[FONT=Arial]Being opposed to slavery means nothing unless you take action against the filthy institution. Lee was a decent man for his times, but the fetishism some Southerners have for the lost cause is nauseating. It's one complaint I have with living in this area.

Action like releasing your slaves - like, before Grant did?

Phalanx
17th April 2008, 17:28
Oh, Cherokee Indians also joined the South.

You know that the reason they called the Cherokees the "Five Civilized Tribes" is because they owned slaves as well? The war wasn't fought over liberty, it was fought over the right to own slaves.

careyprice31
17th April 2008, 17:49
The war wasn't fought over liberty, it was fought over the right to own slaves.

actually the american civil war has numerous causes, slavery was just one of them.

DejaVu may be right, the slavery might have been phased out anyway even without a great war as feudalism was inevidably being replaced , but just because Robert Lee opposed slavery and had freed his own few slaves, doesnt mean he was a champion of freedom, not freedom in the sense of how I and most leftists on RL would define it.

freakazoid
17th April 2008, 18:02
You know that the reason they called the Cherokees the "Five Civilized Tribes" is because they owned slaves as well?

The Cherokees did not make up the intirety of the Five Civilized Tribes, there where 4 others nations. And some of the Nations joined the South and some the North.


The war wasn't fought over liberty, it was fought over the right to own slaves.

The war wasn't fought over the right to own slaves.


While Lysander Spooner wrote about the right of seccession in "No Treason", lets not forget that he also wrote about taking arms against slave owners to end slavery (although obviously not in a state sanctioned manner; probably in more of a John Brown kinda way.)

Are these bad?


it can be quite shocking.

Why?

Phalanx
17th April 2008, 20:08
actually the american civil war has numerous causes, slavery was just one of them.Every major reason for the war was rooted in slavery. The south fought over states rights to own slaves.


The war wasn't fought over the right to own slaves.You reading southern textbooks? The war was fought over slavery.


Action like releasing your slaves - like, before Grant did? Grant owned one slave and he freed him in 1859. Lee, however, had 196 slaves and freed them in 1862. What are they teaching you down in Virginia?

Os Cangaceiros
17th April 2008, 21:05
Are these bad?

Not at all.

freakazoid
18th April 2008, 19:29
Ok, to me the way it was worded made it sound like it was bad.


You reading southern textbooks? The war was fought over slavery.

You reading northern textbooks? The things that the .gov would like you to believe.

Kwisatz Haderach
19th April 2008, 21:54
Take heed: you're talking to a walking contradiction. Anarcho-capitalists have such a warped sense of freedom and liberty that they often choose to side with the Southern cause, even if it means backing chattel slavery.
Actually, it makes perfect sense once you realize that "anarcho-capitalism" is in fact feudalism by another name.

Schrödinger's Cat
20th April 2008, 01:11
Action like releasing your slaves - like, before Grant did?

Confederate myth.

The slaves you reference were his wife's. Grant only had one, which he set free in 1859. There was no indication of abuse and Grant later wrote on the horrors of how some slave owners treated their "property." Lee, on the other hand, who came to acquire over 100 slaves from his father and owned them up until 1862, had them punished by whipping - and is said to have done it himself (although this is less credible).

Lee's opposition to slavery is dubious at best: In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

He saw slavery as a necessary evil and opposed abolitionists.
The Confederacy deserved to perish. Looks like DejaVu wants to criticize some of us for calling out absurd anti-communist claims and then apologize for the South. How shameful.

PRC-UTE
20th April 2008, 01:43
You post an article from a person who defended slavery in arms (no matter what rhetoric he used to justify it, that is his actual historical legacy) and a British Lord to promote liberty? LMAO! I guess the defenders of capitalism are getting more desperate.

RNK
22nd April 2008, 02:05
Oh, right, the usual, "the South would've released the slaves anyway... after, y'know, a few more decades of whippings, to make sure they're ready for freedom."

Why isn't this guy banned?

Demogorgon
22nd April 2008, 04:00
You post an article from a person who defended slavery in arms (no matter what rhetoric he used to justify it, that is his actual historical legacy) and a British Lord to promote liberty? LMAO! I guess the defenders of capitalism are getting more desperate.

It is the nature of Anarcho-Capitalism. Despite their protests about supporting freedom, they must be the most authoritarian bunch I know. Defending the Confederacy seems to be as much an integral issue to them as attacking class division is for us.

And don't get me started on some of their other views. I have seen criminal "justice" proposals from them that sound more like Roman Gladiatorial spectacles than anything else.

Schrödinger's Cat
22nd April 2008, 06:41
Purely observational, but over the course of April I've discovered that particular anarcho-capitalists (don't want to make a generalization) believe:

- Socialists are authoritarians for believing you have the right to a peaceful sleep in your own home.

- Slave apologists can be considered the apex of liberty.

- Somalia is a wonderful, working example of anarcho-capitalism

- The industrialization of social democracies (Germany, Japan, South Korea, Finland) may have been better than the industrialization of market-oriented Britain, the United States, and Australia, but now it would be different.

- Markets don't need copyrights and patents to inspire artisan entrepreneurs (Since I work in the printing industry I call this out as being bullocks)

- All the benefits brought about by the Progressive and New Deal waves of regulation are myths

- Natural monopolies never occur (Standard Oil? Well, it started to decline after thirty years. Microsoft? Well, Apple owns 5% of the user share)

- The market will handle road construction, police work, air control, firefighting, water sanitation, and everything else our heart can desire.

- I can own land by simply stumbling unto it and taking a piss in the soil

- Plagiarizing from your own professor is ethical

- Ron Paul should have his own personality cult

- A "libertarian dictatorship" is a lot better than a "socialist democracy." ;)

IcarusAngel
25th April 2008, 04:22
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. You go to any Libertarian cultist site and you hear that stuff.

Are you from the Southern US, though, then?

Schrödinger's Cat
25th April 2008, 06:20
Who, me? I'm a Texan. The state has two flavors of red. ;)