Feedback, guys: Religion's place in Socialism/communism

[American Kid]

First off, don't freak out that they're two different things. I know! I know!

How's everyone? The "Kid", here.

Anyway, I was at work yesterday and my mind wandered to this subject. And I want your opinons. I'm pretty certain that probably 944,994,999% of you are atheists. Personally I was baptised catholic. I'm not ultra-religious, but I have my beliefs. I would PREFER there was a God. I would hate to think we die and it's just like cutting down a tree or turning off a light switch.
Then again, if there's a hell I'm probably going there, so......But that's okay. I'll have my friends WolfieSmith and Contrarian and Pele to keep me company. (I love you too Wolfie. You can hit the "back" button on your computer screen and turn this off now)

But anyway, I've read some Communist idealogy (or literature I guess you could call it) and the comments they made towards organized religion I found a little distubing.

I know this much. I understand we're all talking revolution here. And I guess, though being a brought-up, raised- that-way capitalist, with as much conviction for it as someone can, raised in America, I don't fear socialism nor do I necessarily think it's evil. Communism, I can honestly say, I would fight against in a war if I had to. I have no reverence for it. It' frightening.

HOWEVER, you want to start a war? Then take the people's religion away. Or try to. Even threaten it, and watch what happens (9-11). If part of anyone's ideaology here coincides in anyway with the outlawing or annexing of any or all religions, you are definetly, definetely fighting a losing battle, and in for some serious, fucked-up shit. People go fucking apeshit over this. Look at what's happening in Israel. And don't go off about imperial Israel and it's western/American-influenced crimes against the Palenstinian peoples or whatever, ect., ect., because I only want to hear your opinions about: religions place in a socialist and/or communistic society. I'm only using Israel as an example of how fucking nuts people go when they think they're fighting on "God's" side.

I'm pretty sure this is part of the main reason that communists in particular are so disdained and suffer intolerance on many levels. You godless, soulless bastards :). But seriously, it's a major aspect of your bad rap. Because, really, not everybody LOVES the rich and most people are probably behind you a hundred percent in the class regard. I guess this is why Socialism is a little easier tolerated. Although I know in Cuba the catholic church is allowed to practice I think and I remember the pope went there a few years ago, so....

But anyway, lemme know what you think.



So, that's that.

-The Kid.

Also, Malte (or whoever, I don't care), how do people get those red stars under their icon? I have only one (though I don't have an icon and I don't have any idea how. Help me, comrades). I've a feeling, like my fellow outcasts Capitalist Imperial and Stormin' Normin', that's how it's gonna stay :) But what do you do to go about getting more? Hm, just a thought.

[Mazdak]

Religion is one of the two most dangerous forces in the world (the other is nationalism). Most Communists (i hope)hate religion(along with anyone intelligent enough to see its stupidity), but that doesn't mean that all communists are like that. Fore example, if i ruled the world(like that would ever happen), religion would be tolerated but no special treatments. You can practice whatever religion you want but none of this priests dont pay taxes bullshit. And no consideration would be taken for tradition as an excuse to commit crime. For example, there is some strange religion where people throw a goat off the church roof( i dont know where). This would not be tolerated. That is only MY opinion, and i am sure almost no one here agrees with me.

[American Kid]

Ugh, I don't know Mazdak.............That scares me......

[PunkRawker677]

Actually, there are plenty of Religous Socialists/Communists throughtout the world and the past. There was a very famous one in the U.S. in the early 1900s but i cant seem to get a hold on his name.. im going to have to sleep on it or something and ill get back with his name.. i think Reinhold is his first or last name.. damn.. heh.. sorry

I became an Athiest before i was even remotly concerned with politics.. I was born and raised a Catholic and at the age of around 14 i began reading up on different religions and studying my own religion even more. After a while i completly left the Catholic religion due to its corruption and my personal belief that one can believe in god without being a member of the Church. So then i was pretty much Agnostic and not Athiest. As i've gotten older i have let go of the idea of a God but i still respect everyone else's right to practice and believe in their own personal religion.

[Capitalist Fighter]

don't worry American Kid about life after death, refer to my signature and all your concerns will be greatly alleviated. ;)

[ID2002]

Religion can most certianly be practised in socialist/communist countries.

[Guest]

Punkrawker is right there was something called the social gospel movement and they were socialist. my friends dad's mom is a christian socialist. and i agree with id2002 i mean people like what they believe and they should be able to do it. and to try to strip that away from them is pretty wrong, and would cause a lot of probs. I believe in God Jesus and the holy spirit my self and heaven and hell thats just how i am i guess.

PEACE <~MARQUS~>

[Stormin Norman]

The state which seaks to rid the world of religious icons and human spiritually, will always be faced with resistance. Whether God trully exist, or is a defense mechanism invented by a species capable of contemplating the implications of their own death; humanities need for spirituality will always surpass an evil force bent on destroying any semblance of humanity. Socialism and communism both aim to destroy the working of the human psyche, but like the Fau Long Gon (however it is spelled), a resistance will form that terrifies the oppressors of such movements. Have you seen the footage of the Chinese military cracking the skulls and shooting the passive resistors in their country? This documentation of the Chinese response to such movements helps the far more than the suppression hurts. Gandi knew this to be truth, and applied it to his political activism, but I do think it is time for the population of China to make an attempt in overthrowing their corupt regime. Passive resistance will only get you so far. Once you have the sympathy of any free thinking individual, the justification for violence will be recognized by all.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 12:56 am on July 2, 2002)

[Moskitto]

Actually, there are plenty of Religous Socialists/Communists throughtout the world and the past.

Examples: Daniel Ortega, Raul Castro, John Ball and Myself.

[RedCeltic]

I'm a Wiccan & Democratic Socialist.

[Mazdak]

REligion is fine(although i still feel sorry for those who actuallly believe its hogwash), but should not be forced upon people or used in public places. Religion holds back progress, however, and if it gets to be a dangerous force, religion should then be abolished completely.

For all religious people here A neat website pointing out contradictions in christianity and other such things:
http://members.aol.com/nogodhere/christianbs.html

[RedCeltic]

Religion should be perfectly legal as is in the United States. However the Government should not consider the validity of any religion. I don't think that churches should enjoy a tax exempt status, and I don't think people should be allowed to preach for a living.

However, it is a dangerous thing when you advicate for the state to have a hand in religion at all. Abolision of religion will result in your government being overthrown. Regulation of religion will bring religion and the state dangerously close.

[Mazdak]

True, but if religious people use religion as an excuse not to take medicine or blow up abortion clinics, i think we cant be too forgiving and understanding of these people

[RedCeltic]

I believe Christian Science is the religion where they believe that their God will save them and they don't need to take meds, only pray.

If this endagers the life of a child they should have their children taken by child protective services.

On one hand, I agree with the points you make about Xtians. There are many dangerous aspects of their religion. However, there are some positive groups.. ( Quakers to name one) However I doubt you would want to live in the police state it would require to abolish all organized religion.

I believe Religion is best left in the hands of the people and not held hostage by clergy. However that's my view and I wouldn't preach it nor enforce it as I view both wrong.

Furthermore, I hate to paraphrase an imperialist, however, I agree with Napoleon who pointed out the benefits of religion, as giving a moral code. He said something to the effect of, "If religion wasn't already invented, I would invent it myself. Without it, I would need a policeman on every corner."

However, The problems of religion come in two forms.

1) The most annoying aspect of Christianity is the belief in spreading the "word".

2) Christianity also has the annoying habit of telling people what they should think, believe, and how to vote.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:00 pm on July 1, 2002)

[PunkRawker677]

"If this endagers the life of a child they should have their children taken by child protective services. "
I definitly agree with this, but when it concerns their own life the decision should be left in the hands of them, theire closest family member, or closest friend. (in that order)..

"If religion wasn't already invented, I would invent it myself. Without it, I would need a policeman on every corner."
This is a great quote, and i hate to say it considering who said it.. Relgion does imply a moral code and does intill a good amount of morality in people, even if they are not VERY religous..

"However, The problems of religion come in two forms.

1) The most annoying aspect of Christianity is the belief in spreading the "word".

2) Christianity also has the annoying habit of telling people what they should think, believe, and how to vote.
"

I dont really like how you said problems with "religion"and then directly stated problems with christianity. Almost all religions have their problems and contradiction, but that will occur in everything in this world..

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from PunkRawker677 on 10:26 pm on July 1, 2002

I dont really like how you said problems with "religion"and then directly stated problems with christianity. Almost all religions have their problems and contradiction, but that will occur in everything in this world..

Sorry I misstated there.. obviously I ment Christianity.

I don't mean to go on a Christian bashing spree, mostly because I do see value in some aspects of it.

And, I didn't mean to equate all religions as Christianity, given that I'm a Wiccan and would know better than that.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from PunkRawker677 on 4:26 am on July 2, 2002
"If this endagers the life of a child they should have their children taken by child protective services. "
I definitly agree with this, but when it concerns their own life the decision should be left in the hands of them, theire closest family member, or closest friend. (in that order)..

"If religion wasn't already invented, I would invent it myself. Without it, I would need a policeman on every corner."
This is a great quote, and i hate to say it considering who said it.. Relgion does imply a moral code and does intill a good amount of morality in people, even if they are not VERY religous..

"However, The problems of religion come in two forms.

1) The most annoying aspect of Christianity is the belief in spreading the "word".

2) Christianity also has the annoying habit of telling people what they should think, believe, and how to vote.
"

I dont really like how you said problems with "religion"and then directly stated problems with christianity. Almost all religions have their problems and contradiction, but that will occur in everything in this world..


and yet you don't say anything when mazdak did the same thing.

having said that, I am in agreement with RC but then again, i'm also wiccan and a socialist (with communist tendancies)

[RedCeltic]

Mostly, when I speak of Religion, I make a comparison between the two religions that I'm most familiar with.

I am familiar with Christianity, as I was baptized a Lutheran, and spent much of my youth, seeking a religion that was more in tune with my beliefs.

At first, it was mostly because of the person who was running my church was expressing his political views. Therefore, between 13 and 15 I was mostly seeking a Christian religion. This isn't very odd considering that the village that I lived nearby ( Patchogue) is full of churches.

Once, when I was 15, I took a bus to Bellport, and than walked the long distance to the "Unitarian Universalism Fellowship of Bellport."... I walked into the small cottage that was transformed into a meeting place for 15-20 people, and was thunderstruck.... I had forgotten that the next day (third Monday in January) Was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Which, isn’t shocking considering 1) I was an Irish American kid and 2) The year was 1986... when we where only hearing about the holiday, but not practicing it.

So, it was a shock to me to walk into what seemed like yet again, another church.... only to see a group of people 29 or so, huddled in a cramped space that would have been at one time 18th century home... all looking at a woman, standing in front of a fireplace with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's photo hanging over it... singing" We shall over come"

If a church is to preach a political message, this one was geared to something more in tune with my personal beliefs... rather than the anti abortionist, anti homosexual crap I was getting from other churches.

In the end however, it would be a teenage girl who changed my life completely. A friend of mine came to me once and said, " I don't know what to do about my girlfriend, she's a witch and I fear she worships the devil".

I talked to this girl while walking with my friend to his home in Patchogue one day. She had explained to me that her faith was called "Wicca"... and it was a faith based on Celtic Paganism that believed in polytheism.

It was the polytheism that caught my attention.. The belief in... Not just a god, but also a goddess... the thought of practicing a religion where the fundamental structure was simply the natural structure of a communal society... well... she left me with no choice but to spend the next few years pillaging the local library for anything related to "Witchcraft". I read the good stuff, and the bad. Books written by Wiccans like Gerald Gardner, Alex Saunders, Janet and Stewart Farrer, and books written by very unenlightened characters about devil worship and other nonsense... I have read enough of Aton Levy for example to call him a Fascist Neo-Nazi.

Because I've been a Wiccan for many years, I've grown accustomed to arguing about faith publicly. It doesn't bother me in the least. However, in this forum, this are a bit different. Most here, don't know what this religion is that I talk about. Not that Xtians have much of a grasp on it either, but at least they know we aren't one of them so aren't out to make mass conversions to save our souls or .... And other rubbish...

So in this particular medium, it should be said that the only reason people like Nickadermus and myself do mention our religion, is merely to enlighten people of our existence, and distance ourselves from those who have oppressed our religion for two thousand years.

[WolfieSmith]

American Kid,

There are ALOT of christians who consider themselves to be socialists in the UK.

A few years back, the Church of England used an advertising campaign that likened Jesus to Che Guevara.

I think that shows up the massive cultural difference between Europe and the US where God Hates "Fags", Liberals, Abortionists, "Commies", etc.

Wasn't there something in the bible about the rich man being as likely to get into heaven as a camel would through the eye of a needle?

Incidently, I am an atheist.

[PunkRawker677]

=) Red Celtic i wasn't bashin on you for what you said, i was just pointing out that you worded it wrong, and how you worded it made it sound like you were bashing on christianity. I don't know much about wicca, so i couldnt really comment about that..

Nickademus - i dont want to reply to mazdak.. first he talks about killing all mentally challenged people and now he insults everyone who believes in religion as being stupid.. when i see a post by him, i just move on..

(Edited by PunkRawker677 at 6:21 pm on July 2, 2002)

[death b4 dishonour]

Quote: from Mazdak on 10:43 am on July 2, 2002
REligion is fine(although i still feel sorry for those who actuallly believe its hogwash), but should not be forced upon people or used in public places. Religion holds back progress, however, and if it gets to be a dangerous force, religion should then be abolished completely.


i agree somewhat with mazdak, that religion should not be practiced in public places, that it should be kept a private thing, but not that it should be banished completely.

[Moskitto]

That verse is misunderstood.

It does not literally mean the eye of the needle. The Eye of The Needle is a hole in the walls of Jerusalem which when a camel passed through the rider had to take off the baggage. ie, a rich man has to humble himself to get to heavan.

I've heard it used to say allsorts of things such as the idea that Rich people are greedy and don't have a good enough character. Or it was used in the middle ages to keep people in their place by telling them how it's evil to want things for themselves at a time when the clergy where very rich.

Fortunately, in modern times Bibles are printed in languages that people can understand so people are able to find the true meanings in the bible.

[Anonymous]

I think that anyone should be free to practice religion up until the extent where it interferes with the rights of another. I was baptised Catholic and i am in favour of socialist teachings.