Presidents - Who was the worst U.S. president? [Archive]

Stormin Norman

1st July 2002, 12:09

That is true. Clinton did make a mockery of the U.S. presidency, and damaged this country tremendously. However, I do not think that he did the most damage to the country.
Reagan, come on. The things you noted are pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Counter the bad he did with the good, and you will find those things are outwieghed by his better policies. Who cares if Cuba got alienated. His fiscal policy benefited, not only the rich, but everyone who pays taxes or benefited during the economy of the nineties. Star wars was a good idea well ahead of its time. Rest assured if we are attacked by a nuclear superpower we will prevail as a result of his defence stategy. Why should we count on our enemies to uphold their word, when it comes to nuclear disarmament? Whose to say some other non-ABM treaty signer would hesitate to attack us? You could find a worse president, for REagan is directly responsible for bringing down the Iron Curtain. His legacy will last longer than most presidents of the 20th century.

Xvall

1st July 2002, 18:28

I don't know. That's a tough one. There are very few presidents I did like; And most of those were early on during American History (Lincoln, Washington, Etc.). I REALLY don't like Raegan, but not as much as I don't like Truman, For droppign the A-Bomb. He was probably the worst.

Brian

1st July 2002, 23:28

Reagon was an idiot and a moron and was a crappy leader.

(Edited by Brian at 5:29 pm on July 1, 2002)

Mazdak

2nd July 2002, 02:57

Field Marshal -OK

James K Polk- Stole land from mexico (all of the southwest almost) using the excuse that "american blood has been shed on amercian soil" after sending troops to the Mexican border and into mexican land. When his forces were attacked, he cried that the mexicans attacked first. He was a lying bastard and a couble crossing imperialist

George W Bush- self explanatory reasons

Lyndon Johnson- responsible for Che's Death, Vietnam war drafts, using CIA to assassinate(possibly kennedy even), and faking moon landing

Reagan- Calling Soviet Union the evil empire and trying that Star Wars program, and the "trickle down economy"

George Bush sr.- controling huis son, the new president,saying atheists weren't citizens

Truman-involvment with vietnam, Truman doctrine
Roosevelt- imperialism!!!!!
Daivs- President of the CONFEDERACY

Lincoln- not necessarily bad, simply a dictator
he didnt think blacks were equal to whites but gets so much credit as a man who thought this way. He is thought of as a hero even though he used ruthless methods to win the war

RedCeltic

2nd July 2002, 03:29

Warren Harding

Financial impropriety was rampant in the administration

Also Mazdak: US GRANT was far worse than Lincoln ever was.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:33 pm on July 1, 2002)

Thine Stalin

2nd July 2002, 03:45

I dunno, I know what presidents I do like, but it is difficult with the ones I hate.

Truman, and, thats all truman.

RedCeltic

2nd July 2002, 04:06

You mean the man that dropped the bomb...2X? (ok not himself but...)

Why do you like Truman TS? I think the President I like most would be FDR.

{EDIT:} I'm tempted to say John Adams, however he was better as a revolutionary than a president.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:11 pm on July 1, 2002)

The Ax

2nd July 2002, 07:06

Hey,
Deffinetly raegan and also though he wasn't a president newt gingritch.

The Ax

RedCeltic

2nd July 2002, 07:45

You can look at this question from two diffrent angles. I believe that everyone except myself has named the "Worst president" in comparison to the agenda that they would have set at the time. Therefore, are partly correct.

However, If you take an unbiased standpoint, you have no choice but to decide, as the majority of US historians have decided:Warren Harding was by far the worst US President! He knowingly elected crooks into his cabinet.
the members of President Harding's cabinet had corruptly leased naval oil reserves to private oil firms.

They where using Government position for privite Gain. The worst case in US history. Harding who was elected in 1920 died in office in 1923, thus serving only two years.. ( for non Americans - elections are in November- for an office they take over in January)

Thus, is Harding's short term in office, he managed to cause the worst presidantal scandal. Worse in comparison to Richard M. Nixon's Watergate, and far worse than William J. Clinton's Monica...

After his death, the extent of the scandals occurring during his administration became known. The Attorney General was responsible for widespread graft, leading to a criminal trial. The head of the Veteran's Administration looted millions of dollars. The Secretary of the Interior was guilty of accepting a bribe to lease a US naval reserves to private oil companies. This became known as the Tea Pot Dome scandal.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:47 am on July 2, 2002)

Power1

2nd July 2002, 10:24

I'm not Americian but i always thought Lincoln was a great president. I agree with his ideas on most issues and he won the cival war and ended slavery.

Mazdak

3rd July 2002, 03:12

Lincoln was still a dicator. I dont think he is bad, but he is a dictator still.

RedCeltic

3rd July 2002, 03:26

Quote: from Mazdak on 9:12 pm on July 2, 2002
Lincoln was still a dicator. I dont think he is bad, but he is a dictator still.

What makes him a dictator? You said he used ruthless methods to win the war, however wasn't that the blame of Generals like Grant and Sherman? As abolishionists go, he wasn't the strongest nor the most respectible among them I'll give you that. However I still don't see how it makes the man a dictator.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:30 pm on July 2, 2002)

Child of Revolution

3rd July 2002, 13:52

Truman, kennedy.
Bush senior officially said communism died in 1992.
10 year anniversary!!!!

Der wurst drei [the worst three, literally sausage three]

RedCeltic

3rd July 2002, 14:25

Quote: from Child of Revolution on 7:52 am on July 3, 2002
Truman, kennedy.
Bush senior officially said communism died in 1992.
10 year anniversary!!!!

Der wurst drei [the worst three, literally sausage three]

Your supposed to say the reason why. Why do you think Truman and JFK are the worst presidents? Back up your statement please.

Capitalist Imperial

3rd July 2002, 17:35

Oh, C'mon, guys!!!

BILL CLINTON, bar none...

He was involved in shady real estate scandals but was never prosecuted (whitewater), he lied to the Americn people directly (Lewinski), he did almost nothing about multiple terrorist attacks in the US (the cole, the barraks in saudi arabia, the embassies in Africa the WTC bombing in 1993), which eventually led to 9/11, he took illegal campaign donations from China while allowing them to steal our nuclear weapons secrets! These are just a few of the many scandals and questionable dealings he was involved with.

I reiterate: Bill Clinton is the absolute worst president in US history!!!

libereco

3rd July 2002, 17:43

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:35 pm on July 3, 2002
he did almost nothing about multiple terrorist attacks in the US (the cole, the barraks in saudi arabia, the embassies in Africa the WTC bombing in 1993)

at least ONE of those terrorist attacks occured in the USA.

Capitalist Imperial

3rd July 2002, 17:52

Quote: from libereco on 5:43 pm on July 3, 2002

at least ONE of those terrorist attacks occured in the USA.

I know, and its pathetic that litte was done to prevent it from happening again. We all know what happened 8 years later due to responsible parties not being eradicated! Thanks, Bill!

IzmSchism

3rd July 2002, 18:09

Bush is definitley having to deal with so much of what so many percieved as the wonderful Clinton administration, they say you can never tell how well a president did, until at least 8 years after he is out of office....

Mazdak

4th July 2002, 01:02

Bill Clinton wasnt that bad- he may have not been a very moral president, but does it matter? Why the fuck should i have to know about his personal life. When other people have affairs, they aren't thrown in prison or lose their job for it(except maybe a priest). Lewinsky was Just an excuse to impeach him

Mazdak

4th July 2002, 01:04

Oh, RedCeltic- It was he who gave the desicion for Sherman's March to the Sea, and he also passed laws that limited freedom opf spech and he called for the draft. And his Emancipation Proclamation only freed SOUTHERN SLAVES, not any in the north.

Capitalist Imperial

4th July 2002, 01:41

Quote: from Mazdak on 1:02 am on July 4, 2002
Bill Clinton wasnt that bad- he may have not been a very moral president, but does it matter? Why the fuck should i have to know about his personal life. When other people have affairs, they aren't thrown in prison or lose their job for it(except maybe a priest). Lewinsky was Just an excuse to impeach him

BS!!! Character matters! The lewinsky scandal was the smallest of offenses! Go back and read my post, he was guilty of much more serious matters, too!! Not that bad? He was the worst!!! And he lied under oath! That is not OK!!!

RedCeltic

4th July 2002, 03:46

Quote: from Mazdak on 7:04 pm on July 3, 2002
Oh, RedCeltic- It was he who gave the desicion for Sherman's March to the Sea, and he also passed laws that limited freedom opf spech and he called for the draft. And his Emancipation Proclamation only freed SOUTHERN SLAVES, not any in the north.

OK, good points... 1) Traitorous wretches deserved to be burned out. Don't forget all the freed slaves that followed with Sherman as he burned his way to the sea.

2) New York, the largest slave holding state in the north abolished slavery in 1827. However the law only abolished new slaves so it took three more decades for slavery to end altogether in New York.

However, if there where any slaves left...your right they should have been freed. I also feel that the proclimation was only put forward in order to hurt the south.

RedCeltic

4th July 2002, 03:50

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:52 am on July 3, 2002

Quote: from libereco on 5:43 pm on July 3, 2002

at least ONE of those terrorist attacks occured in the USA.

I know, and its pathetic that litte was done to prevent it from happening again. We all know what happened 8 years later due to responsible parties not being eradicated! Thanks, Bill!

Harding's Tea Pot Dome scandal was far worse.

The two worst presidents of all time are

1) Harding
2) Grant

peaccenicked

4th July 2002, 03:56

*
*
*

*

*

*

*

left right history of presidency
The y axis the IQ of the presidency.

RedCeltic

4th July 2002, 04:01

Oh crap.... I forgot about George Washington.. if it wasn't for Alexander Hamilton he would have been lost.

Not the worst, but still a poor statesman and poor general.

peaccenicked

4th July 2002, 04:41

There is room for zig zags on the graph.
I am just pointing out the general trend.lol

suffianr

4th July 2002, 14:02

All the ones after George Washington suck...;)

RedCeltic

4th July 2002, 14:31

What was so damn good about George? Nothing!

peaccenicked

4th July 2002, 15:33

quote
"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all ... The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave" - Washington's Farewell Address

Thine Stalin

4th July 2002, 17:41

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:06 am on July 2, 2002
You mean the man that dropped the bomb...2X? (ok not himself but...)

Why do you like Truman TS? I think the President I like most would be FDR.

{EDIT:} I'm tempted to say John Adams, however he was better as a revolutionary than a president.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:11 pm on July 1, 2002)

No no, truman's about the only one I hate, my poli sci teacher might've affected my view on him, with her excessive praise of him, but besides that he seems like an asshole in both personality, and a poor decision maker, he couldn't make his mind up over korea, and then blames McArthur, which was just hipocritical of him in my eyes considering he had that 'buck stops here' bullshit on his desk. He deliberity filled europe full of anti-communist propaganda, creating the cold war in my eyes.

Mazdak

5th July 2002, 20:03

Truman sucked, but James polk sucked more

ILoveShrub

5th July 2002, 22:35

Woodrow Wilson

He was a racist
He invaded more latin american countries than any other president, including: Mexico(10 times), Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Panama, and had troops in Nicaragua to force them to sign a treaty(favorable to the U.S.)

This intervention led to the hate of america in latin america.

He sent money to the White side in the russian civil war. And eventually forced a blockade of the Soviet Union. He sent troops to overthrow the Russian Revolution.

This cause the soviet union to realize that the west would destroy them if given the chance, which eventually gave way to the cold war.

Wilson also turned his back to Ho Chi Mihn who asked to speak to him after he heard wilson declare that colonies should be freed. After this Ho Chi Mihn went back to Vietnam with a hatred of the west. Then years later Truman also did the same thing.

This set the stage for the Vietnam war.

And the reason he is the absolute worst president is that most people don't know of any of these. They learned from their history books that he was a noble man, a proggressive. What bull shit.

viva

Mazdak

6th July 2002, 02:19

wow, i knew he wasn;'t the greatest president but i never thought he was that bad. But T Roosevelt wasn't much better and they were rivals

Thine Stalin

6th July 2002, 03:34

You have spoiled my view of Wilson.. :(

He used to be one of my favorite presidents too.

Oh well shows how educated I am in american presidential history.

Beyond Good and Evil

6th July 2002, 04:43

Id have to agree that Wilson was probably the worst, closely followed by Regean. I know its a cliche for leftists to bash Regean, but concidering the illegal coups, the massive expansions of presidental powers, the attitude towards latin america, and the propaganda being circulated at the time, I think it's justified. Clinton hid things too, but it was about his sex life, not about illegally selling weapons to hostiles to support the overthrow of South American democracies, but im sure you've all heard that a thousand times.

Everyone remembers Clinton as a peacemaker and a diplomat (failed attempt at peace in the Middle East and what-not), but nobody ever seems to remember Waco, Iraq, the Sudan, Somalia, or Bosnia. He's jsut as big a military honcho as other prez's, hes just better at spinning it....

ILoveShrub

6th July 2002, 05:10

I use to love wilson too, I thought he was on our side. but that is what we are told.and most of those who knew the truth are dead now. so in fifty years he will probably be know as a progressive god.

you know what they say, "the writers of history, are the winners of wars."

RedCeltic

6th July 2002, 08:50

Look: You could look at any US President and find fault or good in whatever they did, depending on your perspective.

Historicly speaking, yet again I point to Harding who served only two years as president, yet managed to cause more damage than most other presidents.

Capitalist Fighter

6th July 2002, 11:59

Clinton rocked! He saved the U.S. economy and was one of the most popular presidents in U.S. history!

Thine Stalin

7th July 2002, 02:15

It was so much harding as his corrupt administration. when he discovered the scandals he threw one in jail and another commit suicide.

RedCeltic

7th July 2002, 04:10

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 9:34 pm on July 5, 2002
You have spoiled my view of Wilson.. :(

He used to be one of my favorite presidents too.

Oh well shows how educated I am in american presidential history.

My dad was such a fan of Wilson that I had him read, "Lies my teacher told me." Which gave him a 180 degree shift in his view of the man.

kidicarus20

12th July 2002, 00:27

Reagan was a stupid fucking moron. No one president did more damage than reagan. People here are saying "johnsan" and kennedy and shit, even they weren't as bad as that dumb fuck Ronald McRaygun.

Reagan didn't provide wealth for everybody he had two recessions, what a fool, and his deregulation led to the loss of 60 billion dollars by the government.

star was was an idea that lost the government 50 million

He invaded nicaragua and killed tens of thousands of people and left their country to become the second poorest country in the world.

Those past presidents had their good, reagan was 100 percent dumb fuck.
He tried to return ameirca to the gilded age.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_R...eagan_page.html (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/RonaldReagan_page.html)

'

Clinton was actually muc hbetter, whitewater was stupid bullshit that republicans tried to dig up.

He had his right-wing faults, but it's important to realize the time and the death of real political debate republicans cause.d
white water was nothign compared to what reagan did, selling arms to Iran, lying to congress, etc... members in his cabnit were convicted and bush the elder wrote in his diary that he was in those Iran contra meetings, thus blowing his cover up.

Clinton brought us out of reagans slump, he increased taxes on the rich allowing us to keep funding certain social programs, he helped pay down the debt which he believed led to inflation, and yhou start taxing the rich more, making them payback for their crimes, you have a better economy, help take the burden of working class taxes off the peoples backs.

Reagan shoudl be hanged for his war crimes, stupid old fucker.

kidicarus20

12th July 2002, 00:37

Why are population clocks Ronald Reagan's Legacy? During Reagan's presidency he systematically dismantled programs that provided birth control services to the poor. This was true both in the US, where he stopped Federal Programs, and internationally, when he stopped funding all International Aid that supported family planning.
Of all the things that Reagan did, this has hurt us all more than anything else. People with money continued to have access to birth control but the poor, could no longer control the size of their families. This causes not only over population, it also causes crime. Unwanted children are far more likely to be abused and grow up to be criminals. Also when families have to struggle to survive they cannot afford to educate their children, they can only produce even more poor people. Every time I see a picture of starving children I think of Ronald Reagan. You should too!

I have lots of anti-reagan links... i will post them

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 00:53

Quote: from Capitalist Fighter on 11:59 am on July 6, 2002
Clinton rocked! He saved the U.S. economy and was one of the most popular presidents in U.S. history!

smoke and mirros, CF, it takes 5-8 years for a prez's policies to ripple through the consituency. It was reagan/bush that created the good economy

I can't believe it, clinton pimped you and the other blind followers, lied to you face, sold out our nuclear weapons secrets to china, , took illegal campaign donations for it, assasinated an aide in the woods (suicide, yeah, right), and you love him for all of that.

Sad

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 01:21

get off clintons back it isn;t like he was the worst one either.

Even if i don't like this country at least he was a president that people liked. Like i mean the man could be the president one day then just chill wit you at a barbecue the next.

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 01:42

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 1:21 am on July 12, 2002
get off clintons back it isn;t like he was the worst one either.

Even if i don't like this country at least he was a president that people liked. Like i mean the man could be the president one day then just chill wit you at a barbecue the next.

No, that is the image he sold to you, it wasn't the real bill clinton

And he was the worst. Wait about 20 more years and we'll look back on him as possbly the worst ever, read my earlier post about him, about how he let terrorists attack american interests over and over and did nothing about it

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 01:47

uh your forgetting I'm anti-US so the Terrorist thing isn't selling big on me.

but as far as I'm concerned that image is better than the one Bush is selling.

Besides one president is just like the other its not like anyone of them really cares about the people.

But who cares hate clinton no sweat of my back

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 01:53

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 1:47 am on July 12, 2002
uh your forgetting I'm anti-US so the Terrorist thing isn't selling big on me.

but as far as I'm concerned that image is better than the one Bush is selling.

Besides one president is just like the other its not like anyone of them really cares about the people.

But who cares hate clinton no sweat of my back

So you are a big Christian but you don't mind too much about the killing of innocents by people who want all christians dead?

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 02:15

remember what i said about the whole traditional religous thing? and how i'm not tied down to traditional beliefs?

also i dont mind us intrest being destroyed

however they are wrong for killing people because of religous purposes

Mazdak

12th July 2002, 02:30

CLinton was alright but i have so far believed Chester A Arthur was a good president, probably the only one.

And i never thought of wilson as that bad, however i am surprised i am the only one who mentioned polk.

kidicarus20

12th July 2002, 07:35

Capitalist imperial you moron, reagonomics ended when bush raised taxes on the working class,

Reagain UPPED taxes on the lower class by 15 percent and LOWERed them on the rich by 15 percent. that's the ingredient for disaster and it was a disaster.

bush raised taxes, clinton raised taxes on the RICH and lowered them on the poor.

Reagan had two recessions and was a moron.

He promised to end the debt but he grew it by trillions and trillions of dollars

anyone interested get a book called "ronald reagan: the politics of symbolism"

Stormin Norman

12th July 2002, 09:02

CI,

I am in complete agreement with your criticism of Clinton. If the unthinking public decides to support a man such as him, then they deserve what they get. Much of today's problems are directly related to the previous administration. Are you guys really dumb enough to believe that things instantly went bad when Bush was inaugurated? The depth of the problems we are currently facing reside in a gradual decay of the system, which was ignored by most people due to the fact that they were profitting from his lack of concern for the nation. So if you want to go about your daily lives and continue to believe the lies that you are promoting, don't expect someone like me to feel sorry for you when you are confronted with the results of your own philosophy.

kidicarus20

12th July 2002, 12:31

MOre brainwashed capitalist propoganda. Bush hurt the country by proposing is massive support the rich tax cut plan. Capitalists repeting the same shit agains and again

Just by BUSH being bu$h he sent fear within our nation and consumers. He blew a surplus that could have been used for social programs and to help are country and is going back to that stupid ass laissez-faire economics of Reagan that has been proven not to work. Letting corporatoins destroy the environment is one of the things he has set out to do.

Also war leads to inflation. Bush and ashcroft want a wars to make the oil companies rich to high heaven. that's all bu$h is interested in, just ike reagan.
annhilating countires and shit. Bu$h's war= bad military strategy.

Stormin Norman

12th July 2002, 12:53

It's obvious that you know nothing. Exactly how does a 5% reduction in the tax burden for all citizens equate to a massive tax cut for the rich? Everyone benefits by the same percentage. This is a good way to stimulate the economy, because it gives money back to the people who spend it on goods.
Furthermore, the buget surplus that you speak of never actually existed. That is why they called it the projected surplus. Do you honestly believe that they would have materialized when the corporate sector is doing as poor as it is now? The money has to exist before it can be applied. Spending in the socil services branch does little to stimulate the economy. You are wasting money on inefficient, fraudulent programs in order to provide jobs to worthless people who wouldn't last two days in the business sector.
You say Bush sent fear into the market. That is funny I thought it was a massive terroist attack, which demonstrated Clinton's lackedaisacle approach to running our country. He is the one who dumbed down security and immigration.

Supermodel

12th July 2002, 16:29

Johnson for Vietnam, and for all the cold war crap.

RedCeltic

12th July 2002, 16:58

HEY, HEY, L.B.J. HOW MANY BABIES DID YOU KILL TODAY?

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 17:01

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 9:02 am on July 12, 2002
CI,

I am in complete agreement with your criticism of Clinton. If the unthinking public decides to support a man such as him, then they deserve what they get. Much of today's problems are directly related to the previous administration. Are you guys really dumb enough to believe that things instantly went bad when Bush was inaugurated? The depth of the problems we are currently facing reside in a gradual decay of the system, which was ignored by most people due to the fact that they were profitting from his lack of concern for the nation. So if you want to go about your daily lives and continue to believe the lies that you are promoting, don't expect someone like me to feel sorry for you when you are confronted with the results of your own philosophy.

I never said Bush ruined the US, its been in the process of ruining since the slave trade. He's just giving it a boost.

Also Bush doesn't even deserve to be in office he didn't technically win and he should be in jail for rigging it

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 17:09

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:58 pm on July 12, 2002
HEY, HEY, L.B.J. HOW MANY BABIES DID YOU KILL TODAY?

Classic hippie BS

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 17:12

well i know one thing lyndon b johnson was a racist

(Edited by Lardlad95 at 5:13 pm on July 12, 2002)

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 17:15

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 5:01 pm on July 12, 2002

I never said Bush ruined the US, its been in the process of ruining since the slave trade. He's just giving it a boost.

Also Bush doesn't even deserve to be in office he didn't technically win and he should be in jail for rigging it

Uh, last I checked we were still # 1 in GDP, technology, industry, and military, and growing, so could you explain your comment?

And how did bush "rig" the election? Do you understand the electoral college system? It is the system we have always used. If anything the media tried to rig it for Gore by prematurely calling florida for the dems, which would discourage further republican voters!!!

BUSH WON BY VOTES, AND BY THE JUDGE

Checks and balances, it is one of the best features of the american system!!!

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 17:25

what the hell are you talking about.

Bush had thousands of Blacks and Jews banned from voting for no reason.

Also the judges stopped the re**** prematureley because Gore was gaining on him.

not to mention the fact that alot of absentee ballots weren't properly marked. And some had people voting twice. Some weren't made on the right date.

Bush rigged the hell out of the thing.

Read the Book, "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore.

also when I said it was in the process of being runied I meant the people not the material things.

This country still is controlled by rich white men, minorities are still treated like shit. This country is still closed minded. This country still treats other countries like shit.

This country aint perfect

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 17:30

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 12:53 pm on July 12, 2002
It's obvious that you know nothing. Exactly how does a 5% reduction in the tax burden for all citizens equate to a massive tax cut for the rich? Everyone benefits by the same percentage. This is a good way to stimulate the economy, because it gives money back to the people who spend it on goods.
Furthermore, the buget surplus that you speak of never actually existed. That is why they called it the projected surplus. Do you honestly believe that they would have materialized when the corporate sector is doing as poor as it is now? The money has to exist before it can be applied. Spending in the socil services branch does little to stimulate the economy. You are wasting money on inefficient, fraudulent programs in order to provide jobs to worthless people who wouldn't last two days in the business sector.
You say Bush sent fear into the market. That is funny I thought it was a massive terroist attack, which demonstrated Clinton's lackedaisacle approach to running our country. He is the one who dumbed down security and immigration.

Thank you, Normin, to say nothing of how many times US interests were attacked (and the US itself in 1993 wheen the WYC was bombed) and clinton did almost nothing. If that had happened when reagan or Bush Sr. was in office, the middle east would now be a parking lot.

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 17:33

why should the middle east be a parking lot?

Kill the terrorists not the innocent you guys seem to forget that a three year old can't pilot a plane and crash it into a building

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 17:45

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 5:25 pm on July 12, 2002
what the hell are you talking about.

Bush had thousands of Blacks and Jews banned from voting for no reason.

Also the judges stopped the re**** prematureley because Gore was gaining on him.

not to mention the fact that alot of absentee ballots weren't properly marked. And some had people voting twice. Some weren't made on the right date.

Bush rigged the hell out of the thing.

Read the Book, "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore.

also when I said it was in the process of being runied I meant the people not the material things.

This country still is controlled by rich white men, minorities are still treated like shit. This country is still closed minded. This country still treats other countries like shit.

This country aint perfect

"Bush had thousands of Blacks and Jews banned from voting for no reason"

That is an absurd fabrication on scale with a UFO conspiracy theory, it is just not true.

"Also the judges stopped the re**** prematureley because Gore was gaining on him."

The judges stopped it because the people were getting tired of the charade, it was becoming obvious george bush won legitimately, and public opinion supoorted that notion

not to mention the fact that alot of absentee ballots weren't properly marked. And some had people voting twice. Some weren't made on the right date.

Oh, just in florida? Did the principles of common sense cease to exist in florida, and not any other state? And of course, all the mismarkings were by people who "actually wanted to vote for Gore"

"Read the Book, "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore."

LOL, LOL I will never give that "Roger and Me" bleeding-heart liberal idiot my dollar or my acknowledgement. I can tell you what is in that book right now:

America is so bad
America is so mean
America is so unfair.

There you go. You should have come tome sooner, I could have saved you 15.99 (5.99 paperback).

"also when I said it was in the process of being runied I meant the people not the material things."

I like the people.

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 17:52

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 5:45 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 5:25 pm on July 12, 2002
what the hell are you talking about.

Bush had thousands of Blacks and Jews banned from voting for no reason.

Also the judges stopped the re**** prematureley because Gore was gaining on him.

not to mention the fact that alot of absentee ballots weren't properly marked. And some had people voting twice. Some weren't made on the right date.

Bush rigged the hell out of the thing.

Read the Book, "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore.

also when I said it was in the process of being runied I meant the people not the material things.

This country still is controlled by rich white men, minorities are still treated like shit. This country is still closed minded. This country still treats other countries like shit.

This country aint perfect

"Bush had thousands of Blacks and Jews banned from voting for no reason"

That is an absurd fabrication on scale with a UFO conspiracy theory, it is just not true.

"Also the judges stopped the re**** prematureley because Gore was gaining on him."

The judges stopped it because the people were getting tired of the charade, it was becoming obvious george bush won legitimately, and public opinion supoorted that notion

not to mention the fact that alot of absentee ballots weren't properly marked. And some had people voting twice. Some weren't made on the right date.

Oh, just in florida? Did the principles of common sense cease to exist in florida, and not any other state? And of course, all the mismarkings were by people who "actually wanted to vote for Gore"

"Read the Book, "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore."

LOL, LOL I will never give that "Roger and Me" bleeding-heart liberal idiot my dollar or my acknowledgement. I can tell you what is in that book right now:

America is so bad
America is so mean
America is so unfair.

There you go. You should have come tome sooner, I could have saved you 15.99 (5.99 paperback).

"also when I said it was in the process of being runied I meant the people not the material things."

I like the people.

>>>That is an absurd fabrication on scale with a UFO conspiracy theory, it is just not true.<<<

Why wouldn't Bush do it? Do you think he actualy likes Blacks and Jews. Yeah Bush is the friend of minorities he loves us so much.

Bush comes from a powerful family you know he could do it.

>>>The judges stopped it because the people were getting tired of the charade, it was becoming obvious george bush won legitimately, and public opinion supoorted that notion<<<

Bullshit, you know how many friends Bush has in high places he could get that shit done easy.

I wasn't tired of the recount. You just wanted to see another bush in office.

>>>LOL, LOL I will never give that "Roger and Me" bleeding-heart liberal idiot my dollar or my acknowledgement. I can tell you what is in that book right now:

America is so bad
America is so mean
America is so unfair.

There you go. You should have come tome sooner, I could have saved you 15.99 (5.99 paperback).<<<

Thats not all thats in the book. Second you wont read it cuz you know he's right.

Besides how is it hurting you to get in the mind of your enemy?

>>>I like the people<<<

How many ghettos do you hang out in?

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 18:14

Why wouldn't bush do it? Because it is illegal and immoral,and he would be easily called on it. Just because he theorhetically could does not mean he would.

All presidential candidates have friends in high places. It doesn't mean they can get a federal circuit judge to just hand him the presidency unjustified. The deciscion was based on evidence, the vote count, and the will of the majority of americn people

And believe me, I don't think michael moore is right. I think he is a leftist whiner.

Although I can't say I "hang out" in ghettos, the neighborhood I grew up in was working class, and i've been through many ghettos during my youth. I was also bussed to a very diverse high school where "americans of european decent" were the minority, and many lower-class students attended. I draw on these experiences, appreciate them, and I still believe in the self-determination of individuals.

RedCeltic

12th July 2002, 18:18

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:09 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:58 pm on July 12, 2002
HEY, HEY, L.B.J. HOW MANY BABIES DID YOU KILL TODAY?

Classic hippie BS

Announcer at Woodstock: Ladies and gentlemen...Country Joe...McDonald....

Oh, come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again,
Got himself in a terrible jam,
Way down yonder in Vietnam,
Put down your books, pick up a gun,
We’re gonna have a whole lot of fun,

And it’s one, two three, what are we fightin for,
Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn, next stop is Vietnam.

Guest

12th July 2002, 18:27

typical leftist fare, living in the past i see.

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 18:28

the us uses terror to fight terror

Lardlad95

12th July 2002, 18:28

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 6:14 pm on July 12, 2002
Why wouldn't bush do it? Because it is illegal and immoral,and he would be easily called on it. Just because he theorhetically could does not mean he would.

All presidential candidates have friends in high places. It doesn't mean they can get a federal circuit judge to just hand him the presidency unjustified. The deciscion was based on evidence, the vote count, and the will of the majority of americn people

And believe me, I don't think michael moore is right. I think he is a leftist whiner.

Although I can't say I "hang out" in ghettos, the neighborhood I grew up in was working class, and i've been through many ghettos during my youth. I was also bussed to a very diverse high school where "americans of european decent" were the minority, and many lower-class students attended. I draw on these experiences, appreciate them, and I still believe in the self-determination of individuals.

But Bush has done a number of illegal things like hiding 10 million in losses by selling a subsdeary of the Energy company he was a boarmember of to the companies own executives.

I my opinion Bush just isn't a honest guy.

but can you say that Black people, puerto rican people, or other hispanics have it as easy as white people?

I mean like wasp white people not european white people.

This country has screwed us time and time again.

Thing about all those blackmen who went into the service during WWII fought for this country and when they got back they still couldn't use the same fountain as a white man?

And even now days I can't walk around ab expensivestore and not be getting constantly stared at by the cashiers.

i can't feel welcomed by a group of rich white people.

White people can say jokes about black people all they want but if I say one thing about white people I'd be a hypocrite.

Read this book called "the little white book on race" by Judi Culbertson and Patti Bard.

Its an excellent book on how moderate racist suburban white people think.

Really all I'm trying to say is this country still isn;t fair to blacks or any other minority and as long as this country is capitalist it never will be

RedCeltic

12th July 2002, 18:32

Quote: from Guest on 12:27 pm on July 12, 2002
typical leftist fare, living in the past i see.

The question was "who was the worst President".. which is an historical signifigance does it not Dubass?

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 18:40

Quote: from RedCeltic on 6:18 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:09 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:58 pm on July 12, 2002
HEY, HEY, L.B.J. HOW MANY BABIES DID YOU KILL TODAY?

Classic hippie BS

Announcer at Woodstock: Ladies and gentlemen...Country Joe...McDonald....

Oh, come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again,
Got himself in a terrible jam,
Way down yonder in Vietnam,
Put down your books, pick up a gun,
We re gonna have a whole lot of fun,

And it s one, two three, what are we fightin for,
Don t ask me, I don t give a damn, next stop is Vietnam.

open up the pearly gates
whoa, ain't got time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die!!

I hate country joe macdonald.

I hate hippies.

On the lighter side of the debate...

Q: How many Vietnam vets does it take to change a light bulb?

A: (In a very irreverent, angry tone) YOU DON'T KNOW, 'CAUSE YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAN!!!

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 6:45 pm on July 12, 2002)

RedCeltic

12th July 2002, 18:48

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:40 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 6:18 pm on July 12, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:09 am on July 12, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:58 pm on July 12, 2002
HEY, HEY, L.B.J. HOW MANY BABIES DID YOU KILL TODAY?

Classic hippie BS

Announcer at Woodstock: Ladies and gentlemen...Country Joe...McDonald....

Oh, come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again,
Got himself in a terrible jam,
Way down yonder in Vietnam,
Put down your books, pick up a gun,
We re gonna have a whole lot of fun,

And it s one, two three, what are we fightin for,
Don t ask me, I don t give a damn, next stop is Vietnam.

open up the pearly gates
whoa, ain't got time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die!!

I hate country joe macdonald.

I hate hippies.

On the lighter side of the debate...

Q: How many Vietnam vets does it take to change a light bulb?

A: (In a very irreverent, angry tone) YOU DON'T KNOW, 'CAUSE YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAN!!!

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 6:45 pm on July 12, 2002)

I hate Vietnam Vets. America praises war too much, and we have too many monuments dedicated to it. At least with 9/11 we honor firemen who save lives rather than those who destroy lives.

http://www.subvertise.org/img_thumb/665.jpg

(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:10 pm on July 12, 2002)

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 19:24

don't hate the veterans for fighting the war, they ahd no choice

RedCeltic

12th July 2002, 19:30

Naturaly I don't hate all of them.. just any that are in relation to CI ;)

Plenty of them have come back to speek out against the war and US imperialism.

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 19:37

Quote: from RedCeltic on 6:48 pm on July 12, 2002

I hate Vietnam Vets. America praises war too much, and we have too many monuments dedicated to it. At least with 9/11 we honor firemen who save lives rather than those who destroy lives.

http://www.subvertise.org/img_thumb/665.jpg

(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:10 pm on July 12, 2002)

That picture is a cheap shot.

BTW, all nations monument war. I don't think it is a glorification as much as an acknowledgement of sacrifice.

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 7:38 pm on July 12, 2002)

Stormin Norman

12th July 2002, 19:46

Red Celtic,

Why don't you go hang out with Jane Fonda. I think the two of you would get along just fine.

CI,

What do you think? Should we start a refugee flood composed of hippies into Cuba? Kick the whiners out of our great country.

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 19:58

Well, I don't know, I don't think that even you or I hate the Cubans so much as to do that to them, LOL.

Maybe we could just drop them on an uncharted island off of greenland and let tham have "love-ins" to death.

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 20:05

oh,oh no guys, what if all the workers in the world overthrow you? yeah! LOL LOL LOL LOL

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 20:13

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:05 pm on July 12, 2002
oh,oh no guys, what if all the workers in the world overthrow you? yeah! LOL LOL LOL LOL

Then that would be some kind of communist uprising, and they would be giving up most of their basic freedoms, and subjecting themselves to a lower standard of living than they have now.

So why would they do that?

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 20:17

they would not do any of those things, and even if they did it would be a noble sacrifice for your fellow man!

pastradamus

12th July 2002, 20:20

wtf!?! i dont think anybody mentioned nixon.

I am not a crook!

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 20:23

oh, yeah Nixon Sucked

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 20:25

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:17 pm on July 12, 2002
they would not do any of those things, and even if they did it would be a noble sacrifice for your fellow man!

Go tell it to Che

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 20:27

somehow I think he would agree

Capitalist Imperial

12th July 2002, 20:32

I know he would, that is one of the reasons he is dead.

Hattori Hanzo

12th July 2002, 20:45

OH, how those who cling to life die in vain and those who cling to nothing die in glory!

RedCeltic

13th July 2002, 01:48

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 1:46 pm on July 12, 2002
Red Celtic,

Why don't you go hang out with Jane Fonda. I think the two of you would get along just fine.

CI,

What do you think? Should we start a refugee flood composed of hippies into Cuba? Kick the whiners out of our great country.

Gee Who seems more like Uncle Joe now? Can't have people who disagree with your government can you? Better have me deported. I have news for you, questioning the government is what democracy is about.

Stormin Norman

13th July 2002, 09:44

Questioning the government and siding with the enemy are two different things. I am one who is often overly critical of the government and I know the value that discourse has in a free society, but you would never hear me insulting Vietnam vetrans. Just like you would never see me hanging out with the Viet Cong.

RedCeltic

13th July 2002, 13:09

Who said anything about siding with the NVC?

And my comment about Vietnam vets was only in response to CI's comment which insults many members of my family.

kidicarus20

13th July 2002, 13:38

You capitalist moron, the rich pay about 40 percent of the taxes, yet received something like 65 percent of the tax return. That is inequality. The rich also pay a smaller percentage of their income to taxes, the poor pay MORE.
Social programs help society, and giving money back to the poor and cutting their taxes helps the economy, not giving big hand outs to corporations. what a dumb ass.

What also hurts US economy (as well as mexico economy and canada) is wto, an absolute nightmare!

You're a fucking dumb ass for saying "Clinton didn't get the terrorists."
The US government backed the moj knowing full well it would cause a soviet invasion of the soviet controlled cities.

U$ under reagan trained bin laden and other militant extremists to fight off the soviets (the enemy of my enemy is my friend reasoning), then left them there to run rampant on the country. We should be blaming reagan for his bogus goals to "defeat communism." All he did was cause the death of hundreds of thousands of people for his war.

It was reported that the U$ attended a counsil in Berlin--before the 9/11 attacks-- where several countries were there including U$, pakistan, etc... and it was reported that the U$ mentioned invading afghanistan and it was also reported that the Pakistani's took that information back to Bin Laden.

Finally Bu$h's war is nothing more than targeting a group that may or may not have ordered it. there are Taliban members all over the world, some in Tuesmekistan, Usbekistan, even in china, etc...
The U$ knows who was behind the attacks just like they know who's behind anthrax.

Bush just wants a war to happen, and he was clearly informed by Russia and other countries about the attacks, maybe thats why people are so mad?
Families of 14 Victims of 911 Sue the Bush Administration for $7
Billion

Stanley Hilton is a lawyer who worked for Senator Bob Dole (R-KS) in
1980, and then exposed Dole's corruption in his 1995 biography, "Senator
for Sale". Hilton "filed a $7 billion lawsuit in U.S. District Court on
June 3 against President [sic] Bush and other government officials for
'allowing' the terrorist attacks to occur. Among Hilton's allegations:
Bush conspired to create the Sept. 11 attacks for his own political
gain and has been using Osama bin Laden as a scapegoat. 'I hope it will
expose the fact that there are numbers of people in the government,
including Bush and his top assistants, who wanted this to happen,' Hilton
said. His class-action suit named 10 defendants, including Vice President
Dick Cheney, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of
Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta.
Hilton said he represents the families of 14 victims and that 400
plaintiffs are involved nationwide." So reports the SF Examiner.
http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?s...=n.lawyer.0611w (http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.lawyer.0611w)

kidicarus20

13th July 2002, 13:51

Yah it is fact that bush and co had a list of about 64,000 voters that they refused to allow vote. ONe woman was told she couldn't vote and she was in charge of some voter commission, when she complained they (geb bu$h, harris) did nothing.

Also another thing Bu$h did was send a list of supposedly convicted felons in texas that had moved to florida, and they all got notices in the mail telling them they couldn't vote. Even though many of them could under florida law.

Bu$h stole the election, no question about it, but our right-wing corporate media doesn't report it. CBS contacted Greg Palast about his story, when he gave them the information they called back about a week later telling him they weren't going to report it saying they had contacted Geb Bu$h and he had denied it. lol.

"I also freely offered up to CBS this information: The office of the governor of Florida, brother of the Republican presidential candidate, had illegally ordered the removal of the names of felons from voter rolls--real felons, but with the right to vote under Florida law. As a result, thousands of these legal voters, almost all Democrats, would not be allowed to vote.
One problem: I had not quite completed my own investigation on this matter. Therefore CBS would have to do some actual work, reviewing documents and law and obtaining statements. The next day I received a call from the producer, who said, " I'm sorry, but your story didn't hold up." Well, how did the multibillion -dollar CBS network determine this? Why, "we called Jeb Bush's office." Oh. And that was it." -- Greg palast.

Bu$h is a stupid drunk, wed to a woman who once drove over her ex-boyfriend, he's a crack addict, he's a draft dodger, if Clinton had been any of that, they would have actually had something worth noting, but the republicans didnt.

Bu$h should be impeached immediately as he stole the election and now has commited several war crimes, and is over-all ruined the country and the world.

Brian

13th July 2002, 13:57

Bush is a drunkin idiot,And Gore was a moron with a whore of a wife(Tipper).

Like I said before,they were both idiots.

Red Revolution

13th July 2002, 22:44

Brian,
I couldn't have put it better myself

Stormin Norman

14th July 2002, 07:03

Bush won the election because of the elector college. This is a provision that the framers create to balance the power over geographic areas. To make sure the beloved popolar vote didn't decide the election. To make sure liberals on the east coast couldn't control the entire nation. Voter fraud may or may not have happened. Democrats invented the idea. Ever heard of Chicago. I highly doubt that Hillary won the senate seat fairly, as I have never met anyone who likes her. I have still yet to see any evidence that supports the allegations you spew. Besides, the high court made a definitive decision which decided the outcome. I guess they felt that the arguments laid out by Gore's team were unsubstantiated. Do you have something against the Supreme Court as well?
A law suit exists that names the President and Vice President along with many of their cabinet members. So what. Just because someone has filed suit doesn't automatically make their allegations true. Why don't you get back to me after the court has made a decision. I will place more credibilty in the findings of the court, than in the fact that a lax suit exists.
It figures someone like you would use a Chomsky quote as their signature. Chomsky is a communist sophist.

abstractmentality

14th July 2002, 08:13

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:03 pm on July 13, 2002
This is a provision that the framers create to balance the power over geographic areas. To make sure the beloved popolar vote didn't decide the election.

notice the second sentence of that statement. the framers made the electoral college because they didnt trust the common person. examples of founders that didnt trust the people: (1) "a representative of the people is appointed to think for and not with his constituents.” - john dickinson (rep from delaware); (2) "no congressional representatives should be directly elected by the people." - Pierce Butler (rep. from SC).
also notice that the electors are not forced by law (in most states, if im thinking right) to vote for the candidate the people majoritarily voted for (see elections of 1820, 1956, 1960, 1968, and 1988).

Stormin Norman

14th July 2002, 08:51

Nothing I have seen on this site would lead me to believe that they were wrong about that. If it were up to the majority of people of this site we would be a communist nation. I happen to agree that the average idiot shouldn't have a direct voice. They don't do their homework when voting and demand that their freedoms be removed. Correct me if I am wrong but the framers knew the pitfalls of government and did everything to reduce the rate of decay of a democratic republic. What do you propose, doing away with the electoral college and opening the system up to the kind of election fraud that could persist if the entire apparatus went to a computerized system? As it stands if one wanted to rig an election they must do it in many areas, making it virtually impossible to manipulate the presidential vote. If a constitutional amendment repealed the electoral college a candidate would only have to buy the election personel in the big cities to buy the election. The podunk towns, the entire midwest, and the sparsley populated areas could be completely ignored.

RedCeltic

14th July 2002, 16:25

I highly doubt that Hillary won the senate seat fairly, as I have never met anyone who likes her.

Lazzio was disliked far more than her. We voted for Hillary than someone from our own island. That was, in fact, all Lazzio's campain was about. He was from Long Island, she's not even from NY.

Moskitto

14th July 2002, 16:40

That sounds like a really crap election campaign.

Stormin Norman

14th July 2002, 16:43

Let me get this straight. You actually voted for that woman. If I were you I would be embarrassed. You are probably one of those people who vote for Clinton the second time around. I would be embarrassed of that too. I mean the first term is somewhat understandable, but by the second term any idiot should have been able to see that he was selling them a pile of crap. "I smoked pot but never enhaled." That was said on MTV when he was campaigning for his first term. That statement should have indicated to the American people what he was all about. Either he was so weak that he couldn't stand up to peer pressure, or he was lying. I would say probably a bit of both. Either way, do we really want that kind of dip shit running the country. I would have respected him more if he hada simply said that he used to be a pothead.
Alright, I know you are going to say Bush is an idiot. Sure maybe he jumbles his words a little bit, but at least he is exudes a certain honesty. He appears to have more conviction than Clinton. I did not vote for him, but I am glad he won the election rather than Gore. Imagine how Gore would have reacted to any of the current crisis. Well we already know what he would have done about terrorism.

RedCeltic

14th July 2002, 16:47

I did not vote for him, but I am glad he won the election rather than Gore.

So, who did you vote for? Neo-Nazi Patrick J. Buchanan?

Stormin Norman

14th July 2002, 16:52

No I wrote my own name in on the ballot. I thought the choices were a joke, so I didn't go there to vote for the top of the ticket.
I am pretty pissed off at Pat Buchanan for dividing the only viable third party we have had in a long time. He was probably a mole put there by the Republicans for that very purpose.

abstractmentality

14th July 2002, 21:27

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 12:51 am on July 14, 2002
I happen to agree that the average idiot shouldn't have a direct voice. They don't do their homework when voting and demand that their freedoms be removed. What do you propose, doing away with the electoral college and opening the system up to the kind of election fraud that could persist if the entire apparatus went to a computerized system? As it stands if one wanted to rig an election they must do it in many areas, making it virtually impossible to manipulate the presidential vote. If a constitutional amendment repealed the electoral college a candidate would only have to buy the election personel in the big cities to buy the election. The towns, the entire midwest, and the sparsley populated areas could be completely ignored.

the system as it stands still gives your "average idiot" a vote, it just doesnt mean as much in some cases, and means more in others. as of the early 90's, a vote by the "average idiot" in the least populous state weighed 45 times more than that of the "average idiot" of california. also, the podunk towns can still be ignored with the electoral college, as the candidate must only win the 12 largest states (population wise), and win the election even if they lose all other electoral votes.

i didnt say anything about a computer based system of voting. but, florida is instituting a touch screen system, so we will see how that works out.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 11:04 am on July 20, 2002)

Red Revolution

18th July 2002, 22:05

If the US is the finest liberal democracy in the world then why are their only 2 parties who ever win?
Oh and CI please be sensible when answering

Capitalist Imperial

18th July 2002, 22:18

Quote: from Red Revolution on 10:05 pm on July 18, 2002
If the US is the finest liberal democracy in the world then why are their only 2 parties who ever win?
Oh and CI please be sensible when answering

Because those are the two most moderate parties in our system, and the majority of americans are not interested in the other parties. The other parties (green, peace and freedom, independent, etc) have every absolute right to campaign for their ideologies, but Americans are not too interested in their platforms.

Capitalist Imperial

18th July 2002, 22:26

Of course, even if we did have only 2 parties (which we don't), it would still be twice the choice (or a choice period) compared with communist or socialist system

Moskitto

18th July 2002, 22:44

Who, What, Where and When did anything/one say that socialism is a one party system. Last time I checked freedom was always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently and freedom only for supporters of the government is no freedom at all.

Capitalist Imperial

18th July 2002, 23:14

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:44 pm on July 18, 2002
Who, What, Where and When did anything/one say that socialism is a one party system. Last time I checked freedom was always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently and freedom only for supporters of the government is no freedom at all.]

US citizens who do not support the US government enjoy thae same freedoms as government supporters

Moskitto

19th July 2002, 00:15

Although I am not certain, I don't think that was my point.

Capitalist Imperial

19th July 2002, 01:11

I'm sorry, what was the point? Are you saying that ideologies approaching purely socialist systems hold public elections?

Moskitto

19th July 2002, 22:45

The point was that it was Rosa Luxemburg who said that and Rosa Luxemburg was a Socialist.

To Quote Weird Al Yankovic

"He always talks in riddles and he puzzles at your brain"

Mazdak

20th July 2002, 01:54

And CI- what is wrong with a one party system
Have you not seen the problems with the two party system-

As soon as one party enters, it proceeds to make changes, as soon as the other comes back into power, it takes back these changes. Neither side accomplishes its goal because neither has the time to make the necessary changes.

And, why do you need doezens of crappy weak parties, when you can have one strong party that is communist?? One party system means the party can get its goals accomplished and not worrying about having to please people who support another party. Leftist parties could actually get things done in the one party system.