So are you guys socialist or anarchist?

[PeaceAndFreedom]

I mean, both options suck... But I'd just like to know.
So, do you consider yourselves anarchist or socialist?

[uth1984]

Lenin once called anarchy an "infantile disorder". Anarchy is romantic, but I dont think its possible. Socialism is the perfect social system. Fight comrades!

[Guest]

Anarchy is the only true democracy. Only in anarchism do you free yourself from oppression by a higher class. And, please, try not to forget that anarchy is also socialism.

[PeaceAndFreedom]

"anarchy is also socialism"
hmm... how is that?

Socialism: A political theory advocating state ownership of industry
Anarchism: A political theory favoring the abolition of the state.

[Nickademus]

there are a lot of people on this board who don't fit into either socialism or anarchy.....there are a lot of other political theories on the left.

i personally am a socialist with communist tendancies.

[Stormin Norman]

There are alot of misguided people from the left on this board. It would be interesting to know how many of them actually pay taxes.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 2:30 pm on June 29, 2002
There are alot of misguided people from the left on this board. It would be interesting to know how many of them actually pay taxes.

what's the relevance?
but i shall tell you i technically pay taxes but as i am a student ( and probably willl be for he rest of my life) i always end up getting it all back!

[Stormin Norman]

I debated whether or not I should add this to my last post, but since you mention it. I would be willing to bet that most communist/socialists on this board either live with there parents or are students. The rellevance being, that many of these people are removed from real world situations, and have an umbrella that protects them from the progressive tax code. Many of you are proponents of a progressive tax code, yet have the luxury of not carrying a tax burden. It is very easy to sit back and contemplate the way things should be when you are not directly subjected to the injustice that your philosophy brings on hard working Americans.
It would also be interesting to note how many communist/socialists on the site would be considered middle to upper class. How would these types really feel when the reality of their system took effect?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 3:02 am on June 30, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Stormin Norman:

This is a message board, most who post on message boards such as this are teenagers or collage kids. They do not reflect the movement at large.

I am 31, a plumber, and member of the Socialist Party USA. Most who are members are working class people. Tino Rozzo for example who runs the party in New Jersey is a downsized computer programer who now works as a painter.

[Stormin Norman]

Let me guess, you are a union member, who faithfully pays his union fines and believes that one day the workers of the world will unite.
Well being a worker myself, I can assure you this will never happen, because there are many like me who will never joined such a movement. I am in direct competition with anyone in my respective market, and that includes my fellow coworkers.

[Nickademus]

well since you brought it, being a student is not a fucking luxury. i'm $52000 in debt and i still have two more years of school. besides that i work my ass off to be able to afford school. for four out of the 6 years i've been in school i've been working full time at the same time as doing school full time just to be able to afford to live.

and besides that...i work at a legal clinic.....i see extremely poor people, usually those on ODSP and OW, evfery single day. i help them deal with their problems... we initiate law reform issues to help working class people. i'm not fucking ignorant....and don't you dare say that i live in reality. i've worked the shit jobs, i've done the homeless thing (yes that's right i was homeless for a while), i've been abused, i've been raped....dont you DARE tell me i live a shetlered life.

[Stormin Norman]

I too know the hardships of being a student. Your situation is not the stereotypical one that I was speaking of. Damn $52,000 dollars in debt, you either go to an Ivy League school or have made some poor decisions. If you work to afford school, why do you owe so much? What is your major?

[Nickademus]

i'm a law student.....i'm trying to get myself into a position where i can affect change....without revolutionary means. and i'm very typical for those of us who don't have mommy and daddy to pay.

and where has my money gone....well first of all tuition is around $6000 per year, books are an extra $1000. tack on rent (i was pay approx $750/month for a piece of shit bachelor), food, internet (very necessary), phone, and you've got yourself no money. i've worked my ass off at minimum wage jobs (in undergrad i did have a car which ate a lot of my money). government will only give you a max of $10,000 per year but obviously that doesn't go too far.

[Stormin Norman]

Great, just what the world needs, another liberal activist attorney. Well, whatever your political leanings I wish you the best of luck. However, know this, I will be there to fight those like you every step of the way. Do not expect of free pass in the area of law, there will be many like me who believe in the rule of law and classical liberalism, and oppose the kind of ridiculous notions which I am sure you represent.
Tell me what kinds of lobbies have you worked for? How have you succeeded in effecting change, thus far?
Marbury vs. Madison, what did it do?


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 5:27 am on June 30, 2002)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 5:20 pm on June 29, 2002
Great, just what the world needs, another liberal activist attorney. Well, whatever your political leanings I wish you the best of luck. However, know this, I will be there to fight those like you every step of the way. Do not expect of free pass in the area of law, there will be many like me who believe in the rule of law and classical liberalism, and oppose the kind of ridiculous notions which I am sure you represent.
Tell me what kinds of lobbies have you worked for? How have you succeeded in effecting change, thus far?

f

first of all where do you live? because you may not live where i do and then you may not be aware of any of the changes.

since many of the projects are long term and i have only been in law school for 2 years, many of the projects i have worked on haven't been completed yet, although they are showing positive effects.

we've worked towards the elimination of extortion of poor clients who have been charged with shoplifting.

we've made hydro companies change their policies which discriminate against the poor and that take the word of the landlord over the word of the tenant.

unfortunately i am unable to tell you about the work i'm doing for the department of justice, but i can tell you it is very good for the 'poor' in society.

i'm working towards building a legal system in uganda to help the children there who are affected by war.

we are working towards the language rights of the french because they are often denied services (especially legal services) en francais. c'est une probleme, parce que mon pays est bilingue...anglais et francais.

we are working on a police reform project regarding the treatment of minorities.

we are working towards the elimination of the life-time ban once charged with welfare fraud.

oh yes, i'm also working towards leonard peltier being freed. and i can tell you that i've done a lot of work with amnesty international, and alot of that work has been successful.

those are just a few.......as i said we shall see how they turn out.....

and you can fight me all you want, but you best expect a battle as well, because the poor and the underpriviledged are not going to take shit for much longer. more and more, we are ready to fight for our rights.......


first of all, i have acted in setting up a legal system

[Stormin Norman]

So by your logic, shoplifters should not have to suffer damages as a result of their actions, and people who commit welfare fraud should be allowed to reap further benefits from a service they abused. None of the things you mentioned help the poor, with exception of your work in Uganda. Everyone rich and poor should benefit from a legal system. To me it sounds like you are more interested in helping criminals than the 'poor'.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 6:03 pm on June 29, 2002
So by your logic, shoplifters should not have to suffer damages as a result of their actions, and people who commit welfare fraud should be allowed to reap further benefits from a service they abused. None of the things you mentioned help the poor, with exception of your work in Uganda. Everyone rich and poor should benefit from a legal system. To me it sounds like you are more interested in helping criminals than the 'poor'.

well first of all regarding the shoplifting thing......what happens is that after a person is charged and either spends time in jail, does community service or whatever is when a letter is sent to the person asking for $350 or they are going to take them to court (which they don't do because it costs about $500 to go to small claims court). basically they bully poor people (usually people who steal groceries for food etc.) into paying $350 because they are afriad they will be used. $350 is an extremely large amount of money for most of these people. plus there is no legal basis for teh companies to claim that amount....(want ot read more because the supreme court of canada decided this issue back in white v. hudsan bay company).

second of all, the welfare fraud issue is usually a language barrier....people aren't exactly certain of their obligations and therefore get charged. sometimes is something as silly as the man-in = the house rule. if you are a single woman and you start living with a man (even if he is only a roommmate and there is no relationship going on between the two) you have to declare yourself a common law spouse. then you have to rely on the man in the house for financial support because you aren't going to get any more welfare. and if you don't tell them you're a common law spouse (which by law you aren't until 3 years) you get charged with welfare fraud and are fucked for the rest of your life. and welfare regultions are even difficult for people who work with them everyday....often its a lack of communication....oh but maybe that makes a criminal.....

[Stormin Norman]

Welfare is for people who suck at life and don't have enough dignity not to subsist on the hard work of others. Language barrier? Why should immigrants be able to collect welfare in the first place? This is not why I pay taxes.
Where I live theft is an arrestible offense. The business must decide whether they want to press charges at the time of arrest. This so called extortion seems like a fair situation and is a winning situation for all those involved. I am sure the fines for shoplifting can be over $1000 in some situations, not to mention the restitution and community service. If a person wants to pay their way out of the situation, they should have the option. If they didn't pay a price why then would a company decide to drop the charges against them. By doing this it seems that they could avoid a theft charge on their record and the business can make up some of the losses incurred by those shoplifters they do not catch.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 7:09 pm on June 29, 2002
Welfare is for people who suck at life and don't have enough dignity not to subsist on the hard work of others. Language barrier? Why should immigrants be able to collect welfare in the first place? This is not why I pay taxes.
Where I live theft is an arrestible offense. The business must decide whether they want to press charges at the time of arrest. This so called extortion seems like a fair situation and is a winning situation for all those involved. I am sure the fines for shoplifting can be over $1000 in some situations, not to mention the restitution and community service. If a person wants to pay their way out of the situation, they should have the option. If they didn't pay a price why then would a company decide to drop the charges against them. By doing this it seems that they could avoid a theft charge on their record and the business can make up some of the losses incurred by those shoplifters they do not catch.

k you obviously didn't read my post. i said that the people who are given these letters asking for the $350 have already done their 'time' for the crime......fucking read my post again.

and obviously you're against the concept of a refugee. and you helping people who have had a string of bad luck is actually better for you in the long run in your capitalist society.

[peaccenicked]

Socialism is not necessarily statist. It is in fact in spirit anti statist and wishes like the anarchists to abolish the state. It is a matter of timing.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 10:13 am on June 29, 2002
Let me guess, you are a union member, who faithfully pays his union fines and believes that one day the workers of the world will unite.
Well being a worker myself, I can assure you this will never happen, because there are many like me who will never joined such a movement. I am in direct competition with anyone in my respective market, and that includes my fellow coworkers.


Ok Scab, Here are some facts about union labor opposed to the scab work you do.

Union membership helps raise workers' pay.

According to the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics; Union workers earn 25 percent more than nonunion workers.Their median weekly earnings for full-time wage and salary work were $718 in 2000, compared with $575 for their nonunion counterparts.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics; Union workers are more likely than their nonunion counterparts to receive health care and pension benefits. In 1999, 73 percent of union workers in private industry participated in medical care benefits, compared with only 51 percent of nonunion workers. Union workers also are more likely to have retirement and short-term disability benefits.

Right-to-work laws are a bad deal for workers because they restrict workers' right to union representation and lower the average pay of all workers. In 2000, the annual average pay in free states was $35,169, compared with $29,233 in right-to-work states—a 20 percent difference. Right-to-work states have lower "union density" (the percentage of workers who belong to unions)—7.5 percent, compared with 16 percent in free states.

Unions increase productivity, according to most recent studies. The voice that union members have on the job—sharing in decision-making about promotions and work and production standards—increases productivity and improves management practices. Better training, lower turnover and longer tenure also make union workers more productive.

Although nearly 50 percent of union workers have been with their current employers for at least 10 years, only 22 percent of nonunion workers can make the same claim. Union workers have greater job stability, in part because they're more satisfied with their jobs, receive better pay, have better benefits and have access to fair grievance procedures. Even more important, most collective bargaining agreements protect union members from unjust discharge. Nonunion workers are "employees at will" who can be fired at any time for any reason—or for no reason.

Source: http://www.aflcio.org

[Stormin Norman]

You call me a scab for being capable of negotiating my own terms. Personally, I find labor unions to be leftist communist plots and would never support one, no matter how bad I needed the job. These organizations typically give money to the democratic party, something that I am staunchly oppossed to. Maybe I am a scab, but at least I am not a sheep. The field that I do work in, does not have labor unions anway. Typically unions are associated with low skilled labor, I am proud to work in an industry devoid of collective bargaining. Collective bargaining is for sucks.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:18 pm on June 29, 2002
You call me a scab for being capable of negotiating my own terms. Personally, I find labor unions to be leftist communist plots and would never support one, no matter how bad I needed the job. These organizations typically give money to the democratic party, something that I am staunchly oppossed to. Maybe I am a scab, but at least I am not a sheep. The field that I do work in, does not have labor unions anway. Typically unions are associated with low skilled labor, I am proud to work in an industry devoid of collective bargaining. Collective bargaining is for sucks.

You should be on a commercial for A & W Root Beer. (Thick headed)

You work without a contract.

Your a scab, congrats: you earned it.

Unions are for the unskilled? I doubt you could work the field my dad did, he was a switchman at New York Tellephone ( Now Verison) and member of CWA one of the most powerful unions in the state of New York.

As I said, I'm a Plumber and I'm a member of UA ( United Association of Plumbers and Pipe Fitters of United States and Canada) Local 200.

You wanna come on my job and show me how you can lay pipe? Any day pal. I'm laying some cast Iron for roof drains next week, I'll tell the foreman you'll pick up where I left off.

[peaccenicked]

WORKERS OF THE WORLD, AWAKEN!
By Joe Hill


Workers of the world, awaken!
Break your chains, demand your rights.
All the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
Is the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?



CHORUS:
Arise, ye prisoners of starvation!
Fight for your own emancipation;
Arise, ye slaves of every nation.
In One Union grand.
Our little ones for bread are crying
And millions are from hunger dying;
The end the means is justifying,
'Tis the final stand.



If the workers take a notion
They can stop all speeding trains;
Every ship upon the ocean
They can tie with mighty chains.
Every wheel in the creation,
Every mine and every mill
Fleets and armies of the nation,
Will at their command stand still.



Join the union, fellow workers
Men and women, side by side;
We will crush the greedy shirkers
Like a sweeping; surging tide;
For united we are standing,
But divided we will fall;
Let this be our understanding--
"All for one and one for all."



Workers of the world, awaken!
Rise in all your splendid might;
Take the wealth that you are making,
It belongs to you by right.
No one will for bread be crying,
We'll have freedom[, lo]ve and health.
When the grand red flag is flying
In the Workers' Commonwealth

[Stormin Norman]

Fact is, plumbing isn't exactly rocket science. If I wanted to be a plumber I would simply take some basic motor skills tests and sign up to be an apprentice for four years. Hey man if that is what you want to do for the rest of your life, fine by me. It wouldn't be my choice, because I would get bored an need to replant myself in another high paying position.
I don't really have anything against plumbers and you should be proud of your father. It is unfortunate that unions have barred entry for other nonunion employees in many fields. The worker seems to get a raw deal in a union position. Lawyers and union representatives sit back and collect pay checks while the low man on the totem poll pays his bills. I thought you were against exploitation.
The descrepancies in pay between union and non union employees accounts for gross income. Why don't you quit buying into the union hype and give me the actual take home income of the two, respectively. You will find that the difference is eaten by those who claim to help you. In an industry that is infested by the union both the worker and the managment get screwed. This is because unions want to ignore the law of supply and demand, by trying to manipulate the labor market.
By the way I do work under contract, as contracts are not exclusive to union positions.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:59 pm on June 30, 2002)


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 11:01 pm on June 30, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

By the way I worked as a tinner for some time. My experience with the union only reinforced my position on unions. They are a vile and disgusting phenomenon. Apparently, I had to much of my own mind to work under such leadership.
How do you know God is a plumber? Just look at a woman's body. Only a plumber would put a snack bar next to a shit hole.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 5:59 pm on June 30, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

How do you know God is a plumber? Just look at a woman's body. Only a plumber would put a snack bar next to a shit hole.

I've heard that joke before.. lol... also.. "how do you know a welder would make the best lover? A welder can fill any gap."

I was both a welder and a plumber when in the Navy.

Oh, well, I must admit... I mentioned the plumbing thing to get under your skin. I suppose I'm not the best person to argue this position as I'm leaving this job soon to study Anthropology at Albany state.

As for problems with the unions you have mentioned, I would agree that there are many disgusting aspects of unions today. However, I would rather fight to change the unions than to abandon the instriment that brought us the 40 hour work week, and the "Middle Class"..

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:13 am on June 30, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

Good luck in your studies. Why did you chose anthropology, and what do you want to do with your degree?

[RedCeltic]

Well, I would like to master in historical archaeology and, like a professor I had in comunity collage , I'd like to work partly as a professor and partly as a researcher in an archalogical firm, privite or university based....

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:42 am on June 30, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

oh, why I decided to study anthropology? Well, I've always been interested in diffrent cultures, have always been interested in how people lived years ago, I have always been interested in language and where various strands come from, and.. well I admit..... the part about bones doesn't interest me as much... but still it's still more interesting than say... Calculus... : )

[Guest]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welfare is for people who suck at life and don't have enough dignity not to subsist on the hard work of others.

what kinda bullshit is this stormin ***** my mother worked at a fucking shitty ass factory job and she still needed the help of welfare to help keep food in the damn house why me and her lived in a shitty apartment with no couches or anything i know people have it worse off but the fact is she worked fucking hard and still needed help fuck you dude. My mother is a smart lady well i guess she isn't shit to you because she didn't go to college it seems like you can't get a good job these days if you don't go to college. i feel sorry for our old and people who can't work this damn technology or the kids who can't get a good education casue tehy go to a school that won't teach shit i'm so fucking mad i;m not even making sense anymore.
<~MARQUS~>

[RedCeltic]

The fact of the matter is, while it sound good on paper to get people off of welfare, the jobs that are directly available to the underskilled pay far less than what it costs to live and raise a family. With the adition to the fact that low wage jobs that are available to people who want to get off welfare, mostly come without benifits.

This means that, even for those of us that have that trait of a work ethic, can't willingly subject their families to the hardships they would endure if taken out of the system.

What's the ansewer? Do you take out welfare compleately? Than watch the bodies pile up in the streets. Do you truly want to revisit 1900 that badly?

It seems logical that welfare should be a fall back position, however not a permanant one. Welfare should support people's fundemental need to survive, while encuraging them survive on their own.

And, What better way to help them survive on their own than instituting a "Living Wage"?

I don't know about you guys, but if I could make the same wage, or possibly more by working than sitting on my rump all day, I'd rather work.

[Stormin Norman]

Guest,

Maybe your mother should have made better decisions. Perhaps she should have decided to procreate with a man who would stay in the picture. Whatever the reason for her plight it is not my responsibity to make sure her kids have food on the table. If society is going to take on that role, maybe everyone would be better served if the parents of such parents were left to fend for themselves and the children became wards of the state. This would guarantee that the offspring of welfare cases would not repeat the same mistakes as their parents. The state would not instill values that enabled people to ever consider that something like welfare was an option worth considering. It appears that your mother did not instill these values, as you defend the fact that you relied on hijacking the money honest citizens worked hard for.
A better solution exists, however. Charitable organizations can help people like your mother without the guilt of stealing from others. People who give to charity do it voluntarily with the intent of helping others. They genuinely care for the less fortunate. A system like this would not be scrutinized by heartless bastards such as myself. The only people with the right to complain are those who donated. This eliminates the resentment of those who had their money stolen by an unjust system.
I have a question for you. When you were receiving the monetary assistance, did you ever consider where it came from? Did you ever feel guilty that maybe some kid had to eat macaroni and cheese rather than a better meal, because their parents were taxed to death? Did you ever despise the fact that you had to accept charity that was not given to you by the goodness of another man's heart? I know that I could never accept this sort of assistance. I would rather kill myself working three jobs than take advantage of a system that steals. Theft is always wrong, regardless of the reason. This Robin Hood senario, of stealing from everyone else to give to the indigent has got to go. Welfare should be a voluntary service, where people who care for others can decide whether or not it is worth it to donate to people who are in your mother's situation.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:27 am on June 30, 2002
Guest,

Maybe your mother should have made better decisions. Perhaps she should have decided to procreate with a man who would stay in the picture. Whatever the reason for her plight it is not my responsibity to make sure her kids have food on the table. If society is going to take on that role, maybe everyone would be better served if the parents of such parents were left to fend for themselves and the children became wards of the state. This would guarantee that the offspring of welfare cases would not repeat the same mistakes as their parents. The state would not instill values that enabled people to ever consider that something like welfare was an option worth considering. It appears that your mother did not instill these values, as you defend the fact that you relied on hijacking the money honest citizens worked hard for.
A better solution exists, however. Charitable organizations can help people like your mother without the guilt of stealing from others. People who give to charity do it voluntarily with the intent of helping others. They genuinely care for the less fortunate. A system like this would not be scrutinized by heartless bastards such as myself. The only people with the right to complain are those who donated. This eliminates the resentment of those who had their money stolen by an unjust system.
I have a question for you. When you were receiving the monetary assistance, did you ever consider where it came from? Did you ever feel guilty that maybe some kid had to eat macaroni and cheese rather than a better meal, because their parents were taxed to death? Did you ever despise the fact that you had to accept charity that was not given to you by the goodness of another man's heart? I know that I could never accept this sort of assistance. I would rather kill myself working three jobs than take advantage of a system that steals. Theft is always wrong, regardless of the reason. This Robin Hood senario, of stealing from everyone else to give to the indigent has got to go. Welfare should be a voluntary service, where people who care for others can decide whether or not it is worth it to donate to people who are in your mother's situation.

wow you really fucking amaze me. make some better choices! did you know that the job market is so difficult that university graduates are coming out of university working at mcdonalds and delivering pizza. I kid you not. after my university degree and onne year of law school i was working as a cook in a fucking restuarant. getting a good job is not something that is always plausible or possible, even for intelligent people.

and procreate with a guy thats going to stay in the picture....yeah cause you men are so fucking reliable. they say they love you and they'll take care of the baby but its all a fucking lie. you cant' control other people. and what about the people who are widows? gee i should have known that my husband was going to die!

and heaven forbid a middle class kid should have to eat kraft dinner instead of steak when a welfare kid is lucky to get a meal once a day.


you've got some pretty fucked up ideas. trust me, the large majority of people on welfare don't like being there and try to get off of it asap. (and odn't tell me again that i don't live in the real world, because i see this everyday).

[Stormin Norman]

You have failed to tell me what mandate the government holds, which allows it to steal from every citizen to give to the 'poor' among us. Do you not feel that it is a responsibility better left to charitable organizations? I speak the truth, for most people resent the fact that they pay 40% of their income in taxes while other get a free pass. Yeah, life is hard, but that still does not justify welfare. Be innovative and entrepreneurial and eventually it will pay off. Perhaps, the welfare case should put aside smoking or some other commodity in order to pay for their own child’s lunch. Why should the U.S. taxpayer pay for everyone else's lunch while his child has to settle for a something less than what could have been provided. Is this what you communists mean by equality? Equally mediocre. Hey, I don't want to pay for my own lunch. Does that mean the government should provide one for me? If someone else is paying can I have steak when I should be eating macaroni?
Have you ever heard the term worthless eater? Of course, I am not talking about the children, they are merely victims of their parents folly, but the person who subsists on the productivity of another man surely has no right to eat anything but gruel.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 1:15 am on July 1, 2002)

[Bakunjin]

I am a communist...

[Stormin Norman]

Why are you a communist? Are you handicapped or something? No really, tell me what do you find appealling about the communist theory.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 1:13 pm on June 30, 2002
You have failed to tell me what mandate the government holds, which allows it to steal from every citizen to give to the 'poor' among us. Do you not feel that it is a responsibility better left to charitable organizations? I speak the truth, for most people resent the fact that they pay 40% of their income in taxes while other get a free pass. Yeah, life is hard, but that still does not justify welfare. Be innovative and entrepreneurial and eventually it will pay off. Perhaps, the welfare case should put aside smoking or some other commodity in order to pay for their own child’s lunch. Why should the U.S. taxpayer pay for everyone else's lunch while his child has to settle for a something less than what could have been provided. Is this what you communists mean by equality? Equally mediocre. Hey, I don't want to pay for my own lunch. Does that mean the government should provide one for me? If someone else is paying can I have steak when I should be eating macaroni?
Have you ever heard the term worthless eater? Of course, I am not talking about the children, they are merely victims of their parents folly, but the person who subsists on the productivity of another man surely has no right to eat anything but gruel.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 1:15 am on July 1, 2002)


the government has the mandate to care for all of its people.....every single one of its people....be they rich, middle class or poor.

no i don't feel charity is the best option. they have extremely limited resources which are totally insufficient. and to not take care of people on welfare is to destroy your way of life. or perhaps you're not certain how exactly your 'market' works. and while you're being innovative and entrepreneurial how the hell do you live? having a business plan is great but if you can't get a job to make enough money to keep your famikly alive how the hell are you going to start a business. and dont spout off about small business loans because you (should) know as well as i do that they are very limited, few, and far between and only support a small portion of proposals that come to them. and perhaps someday if you were forced to realy on welfare you'd change your mind. ever been on employment insurance, ever been homeless. (probably not----guess i'm living in reality more than you).

and you seem to think that people on welfare lead a wonderful life (eating steak?). i challenge you to live for 1 week (just 1 week) on the amount of money a welfare recipient gets for 1 week. have fun because you won't be doing very much.

and again, everyone has their week points in their life. they aren't going to remain on welfare for the rest of their lives. they want off welfare as badly as YOU want them off welfare. and then they will become productive people and contribute to society. then they'll be paying the taxes you ***** about so much and help you when you fall on your ass (and i really hope you do).

[Stormin Norman]

You see, this just shows me how sadistic the altruist can be. You tell me you hope that I fall on my ass. Why, so you can feel important when I come begging to you for help. No, you aren't trying to help poor people. You are trying to feed your own ego by feeling ever so important when the downtrodden come running to you. Let me tell you something. I would rather die in the streets then live for one week on welfare. If the dregs of society, which you seem so proud of helping, could understand my viewpoint our society would be a better place to live. People would have the wear-with-all to help themselves rather than give you the sick satisfaction that you so desire. I am not the one with messed up ideals, you are.
Reality, I am far more accustomed to reality than you are, because I realize the implications that theft has on a society. It is something that should never be condoned, for whatever reason. Would you try to justify murder too, if it helped the 'poor' people that you pretend to care about.
You are more likely to fail at life than me, since you already hold the attitude which excuses failure.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 2:05 am on July 1, 2002)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 2:03 pm on June 30, 2002
You see, this just shows me how sadistic the altruist can be. You tell me you hope that I fall on my ass. Why, so you can feel important when I come begging to you for help. No, you aren't trying to help poor people. You are trying to feed your own ego by feeling ever so important when the downtrodden come running to you. Let me tell you something. I would rather die in the streets then live for one week on welfare. If the dregs of society, which you seem so proud of helping, could understand my viewpoint our society would be a better place to live. People would have the wear-with-all to help themselves rather than give you the sick satisfaction that you so desire. I am not the one with messed up ideals, you are.
Reality, I am far more accustomed to reality than you are, because I realize the implications that theft has on a society. It is something that should never be condoned, for whatever reason. Would you try to justify murder too, if it helped the 'poor' people that you pretend to care about.
You are more likely to fail at life than me, since you already hold the attitude which excuses failure.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 2:05 am on July 1, 2002)



how many times must i tell you that these people who are given the letters have already paid for the theft (hopefully you'll figure it out now).

and the reason i hope you fall on your ass is so that you can experience life as someone who is poor. then you will change your mind.

and i'm not helping people because of what i get out if it. (and quite often we have to turn people away). i feel we are all humans and we have to help each other rather than be selfish.......i don't feed my ego when i help people, i simply feel like i'm doing what i'm obligated to do, as a human being.

you make it sound like people automatically go to welfare and have no problems with being on welfare. for many people it is a very difficult decision to go on welfare. and there is a difference between someone who has no dependants living on the streets than someone who has a child or two children. If you say people with children should live on the streets instead then i will think you are completely inhuman. and people have the wear-with-all to help themselves all the time. but sometimes you need a little help to get there. that sounds like i shouldn't get student loans for university cause i can't pay for it completely myself.

and i have no intentions of failing at life. as long as i can help those that need and i can feel good about my self, my life is a success.

btw. what is it that you do? where do you live? i'm curious as to how your environment has shaped your warped views.

[libereco]

stormin, you must think that everyone has the same chances, that live is fair. Otherwise I don't see how you can argue the way you do...

Look back at your own life and think about how many advantages you got were not accomplished by yourself. The place grew up. Your parents. Education.
Not everybody is as lucky as you, but you seem to think that everyone always gets what he deserves...


Anyways, I'm an Anarchist. Or anarcho-communist. Or Libertarian Socialist....I don't really give a shit about the label.
oh and your definition of socialism is one of many - but not everytime you hear socialism your "socialism" is ment...

"We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." [The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 269]

[RedCeltic]

I Don't think Norman cares much if it's fair, in fact I'm sure in his little sadistic mind he would quite enjoy seeing children working 80+ shift at some dangerous factory, because the wages mom takes home aren't enough and dad died in an awful accident which left the family with nothing but the cloths on their backs.

Norman, I think your sadistic fanasyland existed already 100 years ago.

[Nickademus]

well i guess stormin normin has given up on this topic.

[ID2002]

anarchy is a right wing ideology...and it wouldn't work. Socialism is true...and there is order.

[Stormin Norman]

No I did not give up on this topic. Somebody had asked me about my background. I had just finished my autobiography, but when I hit submit it erased my post. It appears that I hit new topic rather than reply to post. On top of that I forgot to enter my password, therefore the entire post got deleted. Frustrated I refused to type my life story out again. Maybe some other time. I'm sorry. By the way the rich are not the only ones who opposes the welfare state, as anyone who believes in personal repsonsibility would find it abhorrant.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 10:28 pm on July 1, 2002
No I did not give up on this topic. Somebody had asked me about my background. I had just finished my autobiography, but when I hit submit it erased my post. It appears that I hit new topic rather than reply to post. On top of that I forgot to enter my password, therefore the entire post got deleted. Frustrated I refused to type my life story out again. Maybe some other time. I'm sorry. By the way the rich are not the only ones who opposes the welfare state, as anyone who believes in personal repsonsibility would find it abhorrant.

perhaps then you could give me a brief background. like where you live, age, and what you do (job wise).

and there is a different between personal responsibility and asking for help when necessary. welfare is admitting you need help.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 2:30 pm on June 29, 2002
There are alot of misguided people from the left on this board. It would be interesting to know how many of them actually pay taxes.


Please don't use the 'age' thing. I hate it when people refuse do debate with me because I'm 'too young to understand'. If I'm 'too young' then they should be able to easilly prove the flaws in my ideology. Sometimes it makes me wonder if these people are capable of debating at all..

[RGacky3]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 4:13 pm on June 29, 2002
Let me guess, you are a union member, who faithfully pays his union fines and believes that one day the workers of the world will unite.
Well being a worker myself, I can assure you this will never happen, because there are many like me who will never joined such a movement. I am in direct competition with anyone in my respective market, and that includes my fellow coworkers.


So what do you work as, I doubt your a lower class worker. Also competition, what if you loose this competition, then what cappie.

[WolfieSmith]

To Stormin' Norman,

I am not a trade unionist, as I believe that most unions in my country (the UK) have been co-opted by the bosses.

I live with my partner, not my parents and I work a regular job (security). Where do you get off with all your assumptions about people?

I don't assume that all right-wing people are rich. I used to be a terrible reactionary - until I got my first job in '92.

Then I woke up and smelt the coffee, so to speak.

However, of all the countries in the world I would say that the US is undoubtedly the most right-wing.

I'm so sick and tired of Americans *****ing about having to pay tax to fund welfare programs.

I believe in democracy and if americans are so short-sighted, so greedy and so selfish that they want a government to spend *nothing* on social welfare then they will get the society they desire and deserve. It is inevitable.

To "Peace and Freedom",

On the issue of anarchy or socialism, I would say that no society will ever abolish government completely.

However, anarchists can play a practical role reigning in the harshest, most retrograde aspects of business and government.

I believe in constitutional socialism with democratically elected government. Freedom of movement, freedom of speech and affiliation would be paramount. Love it or leave it!

[Child of Revolution]

a bit of both, ya know

Fifty Stars
Reduced to six
Anarchy
In the capitaaal

[ReSiStIr MeCa UsA]

Anarchism means that you should be free.... that no one should enslave you, boss you, rob you, or impose upon you.----then i guess im more of an anarchist :)

[Thine Stalin]

You idiot! In anarchism your company's boss controls you! Not the goverment, wow big difference, actually wait there is, without the goverment to regulate these business they can abuse your further and bann your unions, oh wait, they won't do that in anarchism will they? Heh, because everyone is really good a pure deep down, I forgot. Dipshit anarchists.

[libereco]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 2:50 am on July 5, 2002
You idiot! In anarchism your company's boss controls you! Not the goverment, wow big difference, actually wait there is, without the goverment to regulate these business they can abuse your further and bann your unions, oh wait, they won't do that in anarchism will they? Heh, because everyone is really good a pure deep down, I forgot. Dipshit anarchists.

way to portray your ignorance.
since you've proven to be an idiot before, and feel the need to insult me i won't waste time on you though...stay ignorant if you wish.

[Thine Stalin]

You people don't even know what the fuck an idiot is. There are 5 people I honestly respect on this board, as intelligent people, and sadly, none are anarchists. If you want to go imagine some wonderland where we all get along goto some nudist hippie colony.

Anarcism is the ultimate form of capitalism, its basically a right wingers dream, minimum goverment, maximum freedom, powerful capitalist economy.

[libereco]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 3:05 am on July 5, 2002
You people don't even know what the fuck an idiot is. There are 5 people I honestly respect on this board, as intelligent people, and sadly, none are anarchists. If you want to go imagine some wonderland where we all get along goto some nudist hippie colony.

Anarcism is the ultimate form of capitalism, its basically a right wingers dream, minimum goverment, maximum freedom, powerful capitalist economy.

you really do make me laugh.

oh and i do know what an idiot is. i called you ignorant though, and you really are ignorant on the topic of anarchy, so until you inform yourself, and argue on a base that isn't build up on your dreams i'll continue to simply laugh at you.

idiot

Id"i*ot, n. [F. idiot, L. idiota an uneducated, ignorant, ill-informed person, Gr. ?, also and orig., a private person, not holding public office, fr. ? proper, peculiar. See Idiom.] 1. A man in private station, as distinguished from one holding a public office. [Obs.]

St. Austin affirmed that the plain places of Scripture are sufficient to all laics, and all idiots or private persons. --Jer. Taylor.

2. An unlearned, ignorant, or simple person, as distinguished from the educated; an ignoramus. [Obs.]

Christ was received of idiots, of the vulgar people, and of the simpler sort, while he was rejected, despised, and persecuted even to death by the high priests, lawyers, scribes, doctors, and rabbis. --C. Blount.

3. A human being destitute of the ordinary intellectual powers, whether congenital, developmental, or accidental; commonly, a person without understanding from birth; a natural fool; a natural; an innocent.

Life . . . is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. --Shak.

4. A fool; a simpleton; -- a term of reproach.






(Edited by libereco at 3:34 am on July 5, 2002)

[ReSiStIr MeCa UsA]

hey stalin.............Even intelligent persons often have entirely wrong notions about anarchism....fore, they believe what the enemies of anarchism say........which is a list of bullshit lies....n i guess your an i diot for believing in it...........oh oh oh in ur FACE!

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 3:05 am on July 5, 2002
You people don't even know what the fuck an idiot is. There are 5 people I honestly respect on this board, as intelligent people, and sadly, none are anarchists. If you want to go imagine some wonderland where we all get along goto some nudist hippie colony.

Anarcism is the ultimate form of capitalism, its basically a right wingers dream, minimum goverment, maximum freedom, powerful capitalist economy.

There are many forms of anarchy TS. You are talking about an-cap(Anachy capilatism) which is very bad thing. Instead of governments oppressing you, Big businesses run rampart with no one stop them but other big businesses. The result is most likely the formation of their own private armies to stop each other :(

I would like to live in completely stateless society(See John Lennons Song "Imagine") but it just seems so out of reach. Socialism is a much more achievable goal at the moment.

(Edited by Mac OS Revolutionary at 4:43 am on July 5, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

Half my fucking friends are anarchists, I may also add they're potheads too, I don't know any communists in school, and they go on babble about anarchy, you got your violent posers saying, "kill the goverment! Yeah!" And you got your real out there anarchists who think the world needs to be like one big community man, and we use eachother to stay up man, it'll be like real wow man.

Pff, the anarchy I describe is the only result of anarchy, you can try and incorperate socialism into it, but in the end, anarchy is as right wing as you can possibly get.

And Liberco, did you look that up, just for me? Aww how kind, Oh wait! I forgot, you KNOW what an idiot is apparently because you looked an online dictionary in order to prove me wrong, god what the hell.

And yeah I know your utopian anarchists, I know one irl, and I knew one on a message board I used to frequent, both are very intelligent, but its even more unlikley than the pothead's dream. I suppose that makes their IQ drop in my eyes.

[libereco]

Half my fucking friends are anarchists, I may also add they're potheads too, I don't know any communists in school, and they go on babble about anarchy, you got your violent posers saying, "kill the goverment! Yeah!" And you got your real out there anarchists who think the world needs to be like one big community man, and we use eachother to stay up man, it'll be like real wowman.

well the "i know a guy who" argument doesn't really work you know. And I don't give a shit if some people sympathising with anarchy are idiots, I know that myself. There are idiots everywhere and you'll see them following any political platform or theory.
Either you learn to attack the argument, rather than the people, or you'll never be taken seriously.


Pff, the anarchy I describe is the only result of anarchy, you can try and incorperate socialism into it, but in the end, anarchy is as right wing as you can possibly get.

...what you were describing wasn't anarchy. It was fucking chaos. Right now we're in a state of chaos as well.
Anarchy and socialism are and always were linked. And I'm not talking about your state-socialism here obviously, but about socialism for the people instead of the party.

Pff, the anarchy I describe is the only result of anarchy, you can try and incorperate socialism into it, but in the end, anarchy is as right wing as you can possibly get.

let me rephrase this:
"Pfff I'm right, because I think I'm right. I don't need any prove for my claims."

And Liberco, did you look that up, just for me? Aww how kind, Oh wait! I forgot, you KNOW what an idiot is apparently because you looked an online dictionary in order to prove me wrong, god what the hell.

actually I did know what an idiot is before I looked it up.
But I thought I'd put it here for you since I figured you're in desparate need for some education. And the dictionary just put it nicer than I am capabale of...

And yeah I know your utopian anarchists, I know one irl, and I knew one on a message board I used to frequent, both are very intelligent, but its even more unlikley than the pothead's dream. I suppose that makes their IQ drop in my eyes.


reading your posts makes my IQ drop, too. But once again you forgot to include an argument other than an ad hominem attack.

[Thine Stalin]

I didn't direct any insults to you did I?

The anarchists I know deserve to be mocked, sorry, just how it works.

What you're thinking of, and I don't have a very clear image, you've been vague, isn't anarchy, socialism and anarchy have NOTHING to do with eachother. Prove me wrong.

You accuse me of backing nothing up, and you still have yet to explain anarchism and socialism's relation.

And why you memorizing the dictionary meaning for idiot?

[Ian]

Malte- I just noticed you put Nazi scum underneath Thine Stalin's avatar. GOOD JOB! :)!

[RedCeltic]

Free Market Anarchy = Libertarianism (Fall out party for GOP)

True Anarchists (in the US anyway) have traditionally (100 years at least) have sided with the American Socialists. (Not to be confused with Communists, nor any other authoritarian system)

[edit:] While many distance themselves from Marxism most are clearly for the people and against a global economy. Marxist and anarchists have worked side by side against capitalism for many years, although they disagree with the outcome of their efforts, the have much in common.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:11 am on July 6, 2002)