Honest question here.

[American Kid]

Hey everybody, how are ya?

Okay, all the socialists/communists here, I was thinking about this the other day and I'm genuinely interested in your opinion:

I recently moved. I needed to bring a bunch of my stuff from my old house to my new one. But I didn't have a car at the time. So I asked a friend of mine who did if he could help me.

He was really cool about it and took an hour out of his day to lend me a hand. When we were done, I handed him a twenty. He refused at first, but I told him I appreciated he'd taken the time out to help me and I wanted him to have it. So he took it.

Now according to your idealogy, how does this stack up?
I mean, seriously, was I my friend's slave master for a day? In all sincerity I'm not patronizing, according to your beliefs concerning the balance of power between a worker and employer, where does this stand?

Eagerly awaiting,

don't be a dick :)

-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 9:24 pm on June 27, 2002)

[Marc]

Communist ideology has nothing to do with the sort of "work" you are describing as you didnt opress your friend into helping you out, he did it of his own free will. He was also not in a position whereby his circumstance meant he was forced to work for you because he needed the money, so i personally have no objection.

[Supermodel]

It was correct of you to offer a payment or gift to your friend, if only to cover the use of the car.

He was very polite to refuse at first, then even more polite to kindly accept. You did not exploit the friendship and hopefully you will continue to do favors for one another in the future, that's just friendship. The fact that you offerred cash is OK, if you're uncomfortable in the future then offer to gas up the car or pay for a decent lunch while you're both working, that way it's not a money thing.

It would be nice to invite him over/out for a beer just to show you don't call him only when you need his car.

[American Kid]

Okay, cool. Thanks. Still a globalizing, fast-food-eating, environmentally- exploitave cappie, but I appreciate the replies so far.





:)


-AK

keep em coming

[IzmSchism]

okay, not to sound like a dick or anything, but, I am trying to come to grips with you needing so much attention and nurturing along the way here. First of all, this scenario you have presented seems pretty cut and dry, and to try and delve into its deeper political leaning ideology seems absolutely absurd. So, did you feel like you were exploiting your friend? THAT"S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR-Lionel Ritchie. They help you out when you need some help. But of course I can understand for someone that is in a mind set where it's dog eat dog. If there is a large moral consequence in your own mind for putting your friend in this sort of position, I either beleive you are way too nice and sensitive, but your a "globalizing, fast-food-eating, environmentally- exploitave cappie" so we'll scratchy that one, OR you are starting to question your value system and soon enough you will step over to the dark side........so I would say that you are bored and need some reasurrance, we'll here it is, 20 bucks an hour is kick ass, I would have kicked him some snaps for the petro and bought him a beer, or a lap dance or some bulletts for his gun, something like that!

Have a nice day!


(Edited by IzmSchism at 10:33 pm on June 27, 2002)

[Red Revolution]

Under a totaly IDEAL communist enviroment you would also have use of a car.

[Apache]

Quote: from Red Revolution on 2:29 pm on June 27, 2002
Under a totaly IDEAL communist enviroment you would also have use of a car.

Or if you were a Collectivist, you would denounce him as a parasite of the proletariat (for having a car when you did not) and steal his car and then tell him he owed you money for gas.

[IzmSchism]

Quote: from Red Revolution on 10:29 pm on June 27, 2002
Under a totaly IDEAL communist enviroment you would also have use of a car.


WHY? If everyone had a car, such as is now, we would be raping the atmosphere, responsibility mon amie.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Marc on 9:43 pm on June 27, 2002
Communist ideology has nothing to do with the sort of "work" you are describing as you didnt opress your friend into helping you out, he did it of his own free will. He was also not in a position whereby his circumstance meant he was forced to work for you because he needed the money, so i personally have no objection.


But that is what communism is! You have to work no matter what, that is life!!! At least in capitalism,you have a choice and you make your own desitny. In communism, you are told what to do and when, and you can't change jobs, you can't own your own business,you can't do what you want with your life, the state decides that for you! Americans work for their own free will, communists are forced into a job!!!

[RGacky3]

American kid, the porpose of the car loaning and the money giving was just to be a nice person. You did'nt borrow his car to make money, you were not using him as a money making tool, thus it was not exploitation.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Capitalist workers are compensated better than communist workers and they have the feedom to start their own business

[American Kid]

Izm, don't confuse my open-minded olive branch for naivete. I asked a legit question. I admit I've little interaction with "commies" during the course of my life, and to state it plain, I want to know what makes you tick. I'm not tip-toeing through here, wanting to know what is or isn't "acceptable" to you guys, because I want to gain entrance into your club. I'm not trying to adopt chameleon colors so I can fit in and be one of the "red" guys.

I'm poking and prodding because I want to know how you think. The best way to find out being asking questions. No matter how simple or mundane they may seem at first.

Cut and dry? I'm a tax-paying American debating politics over the internet with capitilism-hating socialists. There's nothing cut and/or dry about any of this.

But also what's so great about it. This is becoming one of my favorites sites, definetely.......

Peace out, homies,

-AK

[Mazdak]

Hey, my dad works as a bus driver, and he has been working as one his whole life driving a bus, yet the only reason i live comfortably is because he is a workaholic and worked overtime and did oddjobs so he basically slaved all his life. Yet, we are only living middle class lives. If capitalism was so great, my dad could have goten an education but he couldn't afford it, and he slaved even as a kid( in Ireland, then coming here and doing just the same). He spent all his savings on a house and we aren't livin in this great capitalist society where you work your ass off and the best you can do is $50,000 and then like half is taxed anyhow

[IzmSchism]

Quote: from American Kid on 1:54 am on June 28, 2002
Izm, don't confuse my open-minded olive branch for naivete. I asked a legit question. I admit I've little interaction with "commies" during the course of my life, and to state it plain, I want to know what makes you tick. I'm not tip-toeing through here, wanting to know what is or isn't "acceptable" to you guys, because I want to gain entrance into your club. I'm not trying to adopt chameleon colors so I can fit in and be one of the "red" guys.

I'm poking and prodding because I want to know how you think. The best way to find out being asking questions. No matter how simple or mundane they may seem at first.

Cut and dry? I'm a tax-paying American debating politics over the internet with capitilism-hating socialists. There's nothing cut and/or dry about any of this.

But also what's so great about it. This is becoming one of my favorites sites, definetely.......

Peace out, homies,

-AK



Well to begin with I am not a "commie." I am interested by both spectrums of the economic/political landscape. I believe there are benefits to both sides. I beleiev in free trade, but trade that is responsible ind beneficial not just to one party. Globally we must come together and act with great compassion and effort to rid the world of the people and groups and parties who wish to rule and dominate others for their own personal gain and benefit. I also believe the one thing that must be done in order for the world to survive, not just environmentally, but we must fight for the integrity of different cultures, we must keep the uniqueness of our individual states yet work together on a global scale.

This of course is very surface area stuff, I am 23, still feel lost in a sea of information and I want to know so much.

As for cut and dry....Please remind yourself that the question you asked was just this. Anyways welcome to the forum, don't be afraid to put your foot in your mouth, I have done it.

Hasta la Victoria Siempre,
Ism.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:35 am on June 28, 2002
Capitalist workers are compensated better than communist workers and they have the feedom to start their own business



you can't compare the wages in the systems because cost of living is different. if you don't need to buy a house why would you need as much money as someone who needs to buy a house?

also with all the money that those companies make workers can afford to be paid alot more.

When workers are treated fairly then I'll agree with capitlaism, but since that will never happen I'll stick with socialism

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:48 am on June 28, 2002
Hey, my dad works as a bus driver, and he has been working as one his whole life driving a bus, yet the only reason i live comfortably is because he is a workaholic and worked overtime and did oddjobs so he basically slaved all his life. Yet, we are only living middle class lives. If capitalism was so great, my dad could have goten an education but he couldn't afford it, and he slaved even as a kid( in Ireland, then coming here and doing just the same). He spent all his savings on a house and we aren't livin in this great capitalist society where you work your ass off and the best you can do is $50,000 and then like half is taxed anyhow


Only 27% is taked, and if you are homeowners and your dad is making 50k/ year, than I don't think you appreciate how good your life is compared to most of the world.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 7:01 pm on June 28, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:35 am on June 28, 2002
Capitalist workers are compensated better than communist workers and they have the feedom to start their own business



you can't compare the wages in the systems because cost of living is different. if you don't need to buy a house why would you need as much money as someone who needs to buy a house?

also with all the money that those companies make workers can afford to be paid alot more.

When workers are treated fairly then I'll agree with capitlaism, but since that will never happen I'll stick with socialism


American workers are treated very fairly, how do you figure they are not, and do you live in a socialust country?

[WolfieSmith]

American Kid,

Most advocates of capitalism view the labor contract as a free exchange. After all, no arms are twisted or guns held to heads.

But coercion is much more subtle than that. Basically, if a cappie can't extract a profit (unearned income) from a worker's labor then the worker is laid off. And without substantial capital to speak of, he is basically screwed.

He has to bow and scrape, debase himself and beg the bosses for a job while the boss laughs his sorry ass off and lights a cigar.

Let's talk about your "friendly neighbor" example,

Are you rich? If you are, I would have tapped you up for more than 20 bucks!

If you were impoverished, I would have helped you out for nothing and given you twenty bucks myself.

[Lardlad95]

no I live in the US

Workers are treated as if they are expendable. THe only reason they don't quit is because they need the jobs to support themselves.

The bosses no this so they can treat the employ anyway they want because the employ cant afford to quit.

Also Major corperations make millions-billions of dollars a year and a worker makes like 50,000, they can afford more than that shit.

plus all those people who are fired a year before they can get pension...bullshit

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from WolfieSmith on 7:30 pm on June 28, 2002
American Kid,

But coercion is much more subtle than that. Basically, if a cappie can't extract a profit (unearned income) from a worker's labor then the worker is laid off. And without substantial capital to speak of, he is basically screwed.

He has to bow and scrape, debase himself and beg the bosses for a job while the boss laughs his sorry ass off and lights a cigar.





This is a flagrant and biased villianiszation of capitalist labor markets and labor relations.

Laid off workers can seek employment elsewhere. And the image of a fat-cat with a cigar laughing at out of work laborers is so cliche, stereotypical, and asinine as a submission against capitalism.

Where do you get the idea that profit is "unearned"? Profit is a reasonable mark-up of raw materials (or input materials) refined with labor, which the market percieves as containing added value above the original input. Is intellectual work "unearned"? Is only physical labor allowed to be assigned value? Your assertion that profit is unearned is unsupported.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 7:31 pm on June 28, 2002
no I live in the US

Workers are treated as if they are expendable. THe only reason they don't quit is because they need the jobs to support themselves.

The bosses no this so they can treat the employ anyway they want because the employ cant afford to quit.

Also Major corperations make millions-billions of dollars a year and a worker makes like 50,000, they can afford more than that shit.

plus all those people who are fired a year before they can get pension...bullshit


Do you have any knowledge of American Economics or labor markets?

There is a labor market in the USA, no one is tied to 1 job, and it is competitive. Most employers are more concerned with retaining quality workers than firing them.

Also there are significant labor laws in the USA. I the Vast majority of cases, employers don't treat their workers bad, American workers have the worlds best wages, conditions, and standards. The labor market is competitive. Employers don't just hire and fire at will, often times that is more costly to do that than just retaining experienced workers. If employers paid more than what any market segment brings, then they could not be competitive, and the products and services we pay for would be unaffordable. Soon that business would dissolve, which would bring cometitors closer to monopoly, which is very uncapitalistic.

[WolfieSmith]

Capitalist Imperial wrote:

<<Laid off workers can seek employment elsewhere>>

With another boss who will lay him off when profit can no longer be extracted.

<<Is intellectual work unearned?>>

Proffessional people and white collar workers get paid and I have no problem with that.

As far as "intellectual property" is concerned, I would like to see it abolished. As long as references are cited and credit is given where it is due, I believe that is sufficient.

When big business gets involved in science, the first casuality is the truth. I also think that artists should create for the love of it - not to get rich.

<<your assertion that profit is unearned is unsupported>>

Exactly where is the "value" added? The mere ownership of offices, factories, etc. does not constitute a contribution to society.

As far as "management" is concerned - who says that workers aren't capable of sharing managerial responsibilities among themselves or electing their own leaders?

B.T.W. I do not claim to speak for any other commrades with this posting...

[Capitalist Imperial]

If I sell you an automobile, do you expect to pay just for the market value of the steel and cloth? No, of course not! The labor to pound steel and weave cloth into a beneficial machine adds value!! This is basic economics for commies or cappies!!!

And lay-offs are very infrequent! It is a market! Supply and demand!

Intellectual property is a legitimate concept as innovative thinking and invention should be rewarded. If people are to benefit and advance themselves as result of invention, the originator should receive compensation for others' benefit of his idea!

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 9:03 pm on June 28, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

Wolf,

I think your idea of intellectual property is gravely mistaken. Not only does it include your writings and carefully laid out ideas, but also the work of scientific research. Someone with his or her Ph.D. may forego a large income in order to conduct pure research. Sometimes they are motivated by the prospect that their work will uncover some new theory or find application in advancing the field of technology. If a scientist achieves this not only will they be compensated with monetary awards, but also they will be forever commemorated in the scientific literature.
What you are saying is that once his breakthrough is made another person has the right to steal the work and profit from it as long as they give him due credit. How long do you think advances would occur if people knew their motivation was taken away. Patent protection, insures the conductor of research the right to profit from their discoveries by way of an unchallenged monopoly for a certain number of years. Do you really think any of the large firms would sink money into R&D if they didn't have that prospect? Do you think the independent inventor would bring anything new to the market?
Sure sometimes businesses and universities make their employees sign a contract waiving their right to all said intellectual property. The researcher, scientist, or employee knows that in advance and accepts the conditions. After all, that is what they are being paid for, to produce innovative products, means of production, or to bring grant money to the institution. The man with the idea always has the opportunity to quit the position, if they have something that will fundamentally change life on earth, or if the have something they are sure they can make large profits without the use of their employer. Of course, this requires the employee to sit on the information for some time, risking that somebody else thought of the same thing and can bring it to the market faster.
People, who advocate the abolishment of intellectual property, generally have none of their own.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 9:24 am on June 29, 2002)

[American Kid]

Hey, Wolfie. How are you?

Good. Let's lock horns.

First off Cappie Imperialist is SO, SO correct. Employers will stick with quality people working for them no matter what, through financial hardship and otherwise. There's so many knuckleheads out there (believe me, I've had to work with a few of them) that whenever someone comes along who's good at their job (and more importantly just a good person in general) , they tend to keep them. And if there's a corporate entity involved, and the higher-ups "above" the store boss recommend termination for whatever unfortunate reason, the boss will fight for them.

So hey, check it out: RELAX!

And also, do you KNOW anyone Wolfie? I'm serious. An open-ended question if there ever was one, but seriously, do you? Have you ever had a conversation with another human being or interacted in such a way as to be able to observe any facet of their character? Because you seem to have no grasp of human nature. You make the same mistake a bad novelist or filmmaker makes when they screw up a book or a film: you create unrealistic caricatures out of people:

"Beg the bosses for a job while the boss laughs his ass off and lights a cigar".

What the fuck planet did this happen on? For real. That's ludicrous. And let's say it does happen. Know what happens next? The employee sees his boss for the scumbag he truly is, says to himself, "okay, fuck this guy, I didn't want to work for him anyway; he doesn't deserve someone like me", the employee marches out, slamming the door behind him. He goes home, looks in the paper, finds a better job (yes, jobs are reasonably easy to attain if you have a pulse and your balls have dropped). THEN he tells all his buddies about the cocksucka he just walked out on, and how much of a piece of shit he is. They tell all their buddies, and they tell all their buddies. When the big, bad, fat, stogey-smoking son of a ***** goes looking for help at his new factory, his good name has been smeared all over town. He can't find any and eventually goes under. Like he deserves to.

THAT'S capitalism.

This intrinsic paranoia of socialism/communism is what drives me crazy.

And if I was rich (which I'm not; though you, like many bed-wetting, cry-baby, guilt-ridden left wingers, probably are; though, of course, I don't know you, so...) and you tapped me for more than twenty bucks- just because I was rich- I'd give you a plane ticket to China and say, "Yeah.....right......check's in the mail........"

And if I was poor (which I am) and you tried to dump some cash on me, soley BECAUSE I'm poor, I'd tell you to stick it up your ass. I'm an adult (well, 23), and I can take care of myself. Go home and take a nap.

There's no such thing as the proletariat. There's only a ghost-composite, which exists SOLEY in the minds of rich people who are wracked of guilt, not retaining the proper level of emotional maturity or emotional INTELLIGENCE to know how to deal with it. They hate themselves and the materials that financial success has brought them. And then they SEE themselves in their fellow upper-classmen; and so act to destroy them. The whole world pays a horrible price because they're not a big-boy enough to just accept that that's just the way things are sometimes.

I'll defer to Woody Allen:

"I'd never want to belong to any club, that would have someone like me for a member."

-AK





(Edited by American Kid at 10:37 pm on June 28, 2002)


(Edited by American Kid at 10:40 pm on June 28, 2002)

[IzmSchism]

AK, what is up with your sig?
is the part - some guy with his head up his ass suppose to represent that you feel that statement is bullshit or what? or do you buy it?

[marxistdisciple]

I think people are missing the point of profit here. Profit is of course earnt, but disprortionately to the effort that goes into making a product.

I will use a usual example as a pair of nike sneakers.

1. A designer designs them, gets paid a fixed salary or a contract salary. The designs go to manufacuturing, and the parts are created either in a US factory, or a factory elsewhere in the world. The workers in the factory make hundreds of pairs of sneakers a day - in parts. they get paid an hourly rate, and are expected to meet production targets.

2. Next the parts of sneaker are sent to a low wage contractor in indonesia or haiti or china, and assembled by workers in a sweatshop. These workers are paid a few cents an hour, for the hundreds of pairs of sneakers they produce. The sneakers are shipped out and most are not sold in the countries they are made, removing the profit from retailers of that country, and the economic benefits they will benefit these said workers.

3. The sneakers retail for $100 in american and european stores. As a total, the sneakers have cost about $5 to produce. Most of the profit goes to a) Shareholders or b)Company executives.

Let me put this in context. Everyone in each stage recieves profit...however the profit is entirely disproportionate to the role they played in production of the article.

The shareholders had nothing to do with the invention or the production of the product - yet they derive profit from the work of others.

The executives run the company - but they do not invent, or produce any of the goods. They achieve nothing (except higher share prices), and benefit nobody. Except themselves, because they get large bonuses if the product sells well. Is this to do with their performance?

No, it is to do with the workers who design and produce the product.

The reason capitalism in it's current form is unfair is because it dislocates the profit from the production. It assumes that controlling workers is a more productive, and helpful job in society, than producing the products that everyone needs.

This is why I choose to work in public industry, where my work directly benefits people's lives.

Ak, I think you are being unfair to wolfie. He may not be as proficient a writer, or use the architypal characterisation you believe to be correct, but that doesn't make his political views any less valid.
You got hung up on the Fat-Cat-with-cigar cliche which was the least important aspect of his post.

"And if I was rich (which I'm not; though you, like many bed-wetting, cry-baby, guilt-ridden left wingers, probably are; though, of course, I don't know you, so...) "

That's not very objective is it? Sounds like opinionated fiction, with a hint of awareness at the end for good measure.

You almost use these words as insults, which is also subjective. Like calling someone a bleeding heart liberal, I'd take it as a complement. It shows we care at least, which is more than can be said for the economy touting warmongers I have to talk to most of the time.

Insulting liberals and lefties is the last resort in trying to win a debate....it never works, grow-up out of that please. You are an inteligent person and proficient writer, please try to keep your posts free of unjustified attacks on communists/socialists. We have a different opinion, that doesn't make us emotionally underdeveloped. In fact, saying that just exudes your own imaturity, and lacklustre grasp of logical and concise argument.

----------------------
"They'll never be a nuclear war, too much real-estate is involved."

[American Kid]

Okay, quickly:

Marxist D:

No, you're totally correct, sometimes I do add in a left hook or a jab here-or-there when writing posts and it exposes me as a whiny little prick tossing insults when it'd be better dropping facts. I can't help it though, because it's how I write and how I talk and honestly I feel I believe there's enough legit content/argument to what I'm usually saying to make up for it. In other words: don't regret anything. Which makes a good segue for Izm schizm:

THIS is probably the only thing I do regret because it's a good example: my signature. It's a total fucking wisecrack. It's infantile. But that's also it's charm kind of too. It's vulgar to the point it's self-referential. And I do stand by it. I believe, wholeheartedly, that Marx is a dangerous guy with dangerous, direly consequencial (completely aware I'm spelling this wrong; at the moment cannot think of how to right) ideas running through his head. As condemning as that sounds, though, I don't, believe it or not, hold you or anyone else here to the same standard. Unless you start talking like his ventriliquist dummie. LIke Contrarain or Pele.

And lastly, in reference to your criticizm of my quoting only Wolfie's misfired characterization, Marxist D, I'll agree it was probably the least significant, but easily the most amusing :)

Again, good night and God bless.

-AK

[WolfieSmith]

American Kid wrote:

<<Employers will stick with quality people working for them no matter what>>

So you have never heard of economic recession? If an employer can no longer sell the product? What then?

Unemployment, a reduction in wages to the point where
he can extract a profit once more. Its called the "economic cycle".

<<Also do you know anyone wolfie? I'm serious...>>

You don't like me. You don't have to. But personal abuse does not convince me of your opinions.

Also, I don't believe you took the cigar-thing *literally*. Come on. That was a cheap shot.

<<jobs are easy to obtain, if you have a pulse and your balls have dropped>>

You are telling me that economic recessions do not happen? Your balls may not have dropped in 1991-1992 but mine had been swinging for some time. And lots of people were getting really desperate. Pensions, benefits, job security are consistently eroded.

And you completely ignore any country outside the US or Western Europe. Decended testicles, a pulse or even a college degree are not universal guarantees. Sorry.

<<guilt-ridden, bed-wetting, cry-baby left-wingers...>>

What no "Tree-hugging hippie crap"? I'm disappointed in you man.

<<There's no such thing as the proletariat>>

I prefer the phrase "working-class", myself. So you deny that the majority of the population in just about every country are required to sell their labor to capitalists in order to live? Most capitalists would not deny that...

<<...there is only a ghost composite that exists solely in the minds of rich people>>

I'm not rich. I'm a security guard. So the correct insult here is "loser". And then you are meant to chastise me for espousing the "politics of envy".

Your quote belongs to Groucho Marx and not Woody Allen. What relevance does it have in this context?

[WolfieSmith]

Capitalist Imperial wrote:

<<If I sell you an automobile, do you expect to pay just for the market value of the steel and cloth?>>

Actually, under capitalism I expect everyone but the share holders and senior management to get ripped off.

<<and lay offs are very infrequent, its a market, supply and demand>>

Its a global money market where less than 2 per cent of the world's population earn in excess of 50 per cent of its wealth. So the "demand" is not representative.

<<innovative thinking and invention should be rewarded>>

Financially? In perpetuity? The consumer is the one who pays for it. Thousands of children in the third world die and suffer needlessly because they cannot afford patented medications.

Knock-off medications are many times cheaper to produce. Of course this extendeds to many other products as well.

The best scientists, artists, writers, etc. don't give a shit about money. Do you think Einstein wanted to be a big high-roller? No, his mind was full of science - not bullshit.

[He was also a Marxist, but that doesn't prove a damn thing...]

[WolfieSmith]

Stormin' Norman wrote

<<Those who advocate the abolition of intellectual property generally have none of their own>>

Ouch. He's right though. I've never written a book, cut a cd, or made a scientific breakthrough.

Although if I did make money from something like that - I'd put every last penny towards a good cause.

[Cappies are saying: "Yeah! Like f**k you would!"]

[suffianr]

Culture, not politics. I'm not implying any racist sentiment, but Chinese would respond by anticipating payment, or at least ribbing you if you didn't offer any. In most Asian cultures, the person who asks for a favour is expected to repay the helper by offering some sort of meagre reward, could be a drink, a meal, or even a smoke. Between friends, it can be anything, just as long as the "helper" is shown consideration and gratitude. For example, the Malays, even with their own brand of community spirit, will still expect something from those they have helped, even if they did so out of the genuine kindness of their hearts...It's all about culture, buddy...

[WolfieSmith]

Suffianr,

This is an interesting observation. One of the accusations often levelled at socialists is that they want "something for nothing"...

A very practical way to subvert capitalism is to charge for services according to a persons income. A lot of companies offer "consessions" to the elderly, umemployed and students. That's a start.

But what I would really like to change is the capitalist mindset is that equates social progress and happiness with gross national product.

For example. Americans are rich, but does their great wealth bring them great happiness? My guess is no.

Once you have fed, clothed, housed & educated yourself
and your dependents, the obssession with accquiring money and status is pointless and soul destroying.

For those that beg to differ, I say go for it! Build the biggest business empire you can. Wield power for the sheer hell of it, compete with your fellow man. Work your balls off for no earthly reason. Sooner or later you will come round to my way of thinking.

[Moskitto]

I have done programming which counts as intellectual property.

[Hattori Hanzo]

AK-

first of all, there's nothing wrong with the original scenario, as there is no class tension involved. And to say that there is no proletariat is ridiculous. You obviously live in the US where there are very few poor people and where the class tension, if there is any there, is between the beurgousie and the aristocracy. the true class tension is not very visible in the US, simply because the majority of the proletariat resides elsewhere. you may claim to be poor, but you are still part of the beurgousie class, because (assuming you have some office job, correct me if you are actually a laboror on some grape farm in Mexico) you are in your position most likely as a result of the exploitation of someone else.