Apache care a challenge ?

[Hayduke]

Well Apache,

I have seen many of your hopeless and stupid comments on
this board and im kinda sick of it.
Therefore I challenge you for a debate, to see if you
can defend for what you stand for ( god may know what that is ).

To make it a bit more interesting we will both get no help from fellow friends.

This means no other replys then Apache and me

Your main purpose is to proof that communism sucks, so ill be
waiting for your first comment on this.

Care to take the challenge ?

[Stormin Norman]

Since Apache is not here, I will take the challenge. That is if you accept.

[Hayduke]

For now ill accept.

[Stormin Norman]

First, go to my economic comparison post. Read it, for is only two or three paragraphs. Then reply in that area. I will let you reserve the rest of this thread for your title bout with Apache.

[Apache]

Ok, I'm back.
What do you want to talk about?
Do you have nude pics of Angie?

[Hayduke]

I want to know your argument against communism.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Apache on 1:51 pm on June 27, 2002
Ok, I'm back.
What do you want to talk about?
Do you have nude pics of Angie?


Oh my god your a f**king idiot!!!
But in the kinda funny sort of way..
But seriously.. That's very disrespectul to Angie.

[Capitalist Imperial]

We're American Capitalists...

Disrespect is one of our biggest exports!

[IzmSchism]

an admirble trait, to be proud of being an asshole.

[Apache]

(1) Disincentification

Communists strive for the complete equality of all incomes, and therefore, the equality of economic outcomes. However, they do not recognize a very important trade-off: as incomes approach complete equality, productivity declines. People work to make money to support themselves, not to pay taxes, as Professor Arthur Laffer has eloquently explained. He who chooses not to work suffers the consequences; He who works receives the incentives - that is, money - which he is working for. In attempts to make more money, which are perfectly consistent with human nature, people often naturally work harder and longer. Thus, productivity tends to rise as the degree of economic inequality (or, to use a more "acceptable" term, equality of opportunity) increases. This is a direct relationship. Under true communism, all incomes are completely equal. When there is nothing to achieve by working harder or longer, people become idle. People work less or not at all because the incentive of making more money no longer exists. Thus, as aforementioned, productivity will decline (unless the state is able to maintain, via coercion, the labour force to some degree). All incomes would then be equal, but this equal income would eventually fall to zero.

(2) Human Rights Violations

Communists often argue that capitalism "kills" the poor. Statistically, though, it is communism that is the cause of the greatest massacres in the history of the world. Approximately 100,000,000 deaths worldwide can be traced to communism.

Communism attempts to do the impossible: to control human individualism. Thought is free and independent and, no matter how hard anyone tries, can never be fully controlled (Orwell's Oceania notwithstanding). This inevitable, irrevocable failure has led to the disastrous massacres of communism which are often attempts to combat opinions different from those of the communist governments.

(3) Inevitable Failure

Every attempt at Communism has either failed or is failing. The Soviet Union fell, as did the Eastern Bloc, as did the Berlin Wall. North Korea is starving to death, China will eventually be forced away from communism and is already showing signs of a transition to a more capitalistic system, and Cuba remains in poverty under a dictator responsible for numerous massacres and other human rights violations.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I went over this 1 million times with them, Apache, they won't really respond to it, they'll just change the subject. Communism produces almost nil invention or innovation.

Well, of course, there is the great Soviet invention of, um.......uhh.....hmmmm....

well, how about the revolutionary soviet development of, eh....

Ok, fine, how about the communist china invention of,hmmmm, uh, well, uh,...
at least they innovated the, ummm, arrrgg

Oh, yeah!!! The cubans! They created the....hmmmm, the, uh...

Darn!

[Xvall]

I'm going to nose into your debate! Sorry D-Day!

(1) Disincentification

Communists strive for the complete equality of all incomes, and therefore, the equality of economic outcomes. However, they do not recognize a very important trade-off: as incomes approach complete equality, productivity declines.

I'm not going to argue against this yet, but how does productivity decline? If you are saying that the more money paid, the more effort the person goes through, this is not always true. Disney merchandise has no problem with productivity, and yet the people who make these products are paid very little, roughly ten cents a day. Therefore, the amount of money a person is paid has nothing to do with declines in productivity, and everyone being at an 'equal' status will not affect productivity either.

People work to make money to support themselves, not to pay taxes, as Professor Arthur Laffer has eloquently explained. He who chooses not to work suffers the consequences; He who works receives the incentives - that is, money - which he is working for.

Some people work very hard, and get paid very little money. Others hardly work, mainly sitting in a chair all day, and get paid thousands of dollars.

In attempts to make more money, which are perfectly consistent with human nature, people often naturally work harder and longer. Thus, productivity tends to rise as the degree of economic inequality (or, to use a more "acceptable" term, equality of opportunity) increases. This is a direct relationship. Under true communism, all incomes are completely equal. When there is nothing to achieve by working harder or longer, people become idle. People work less or not at all because the incentive of making more money no longer exists. Thus, as aforementioned, productivity will decline (unless the state is able to maintain, via coercion, the labour force to some degree). All incomes would then be equal, but this equal income would eventually fall to zero.

Yes, money does influence people. But this can't work for everyone. You make it seem like if anyone tried 'hard enough', they could be a sucessfull businessman. But if this were true, then it would mean that everyone could be a businessman if they wanted to. There will always be someone stuck with the low paying job.

(2) Human Rights Violations

Communists often argue that capitalism "kills" the poor. Statistically, though, it is communism that is the cause of the greatest massacres in the history of the world. Approximately 100,000,000 deaths worldwide can be traced to communism.

We can go into this again, I really don't want to. I can easilly point out that capitalism has killed 100,000,000 people. We do not consider most of these countries that commited atrocities, and therefore do not believe 'communism' can kill people. It's a theory. A theory can't hurt anyone. Apparently, people like you consider those countries 'communistic' because they resemble it enough. If this is true, I can say that the Third Riech was 'close enough' to having cpaitalism, because it allowed private business. From there, I can claim that Capitalism is responsible for about 60,000,000 Deaths. I can also claim that Leopold the Second, a person who pursuid wealth, was also capitalistic, and he killed roughly 10,000,000 - 20,000,000 people. I can just as easilly say that Capitalism killed 80,000,000 people now. Then I can tack on people killed as a result of colonization and slavery, bringing the Number as high as your claim. The problem with this theory is that you consider whenever a communist country killed someone, 'communism' did. This is not true. The contries killed people because they did not like them. This was a result of tyranny and opression, not of 'Communism'.

Communism attempts to do the impossible: to control human individualism. Thought is free and independent and, no matter how hard anyone tries, can never be fully controlled (Orwell's Oceania notwithstanding). This inevitable, irrevocable failure has led to the disastrous massacres of communism which are often attempts to combat opinions different from those of the communist governments.

Communism isn't about controlling anyones minds. Tell me what page in the manifesto mentions controllign peoples thoughts and decisions. Communism is an economic theory, and has nothing to do with Psychology. Orwell was a Socialist, by the way.


(3) Inevitable Failure

Every attempt at Communism has either failed or is failing. The Soviet Union fell, as did the Eastern Bloc, as did the Berlin Wall. North Korea is starving to death, China will eventually be forced away from communism and is already showing signs of a transition to a more capitalistic system, and Cuba remains in poverty under a dictator responsible for numerous massacres and other human rights violations.

Just because somthing failed doesn't mean it can't happen. World Peace has yet to be achieved. (World Peace meaning Peace between countries.. I am aware there will always be violence) But it doesn't mean that we should give up on it. We have yet to remove prejiduce and discrimination from the world, but that in no way means that the world will remain filled with bigotry. Just because something has yet to heppen, doesn't mean it can't work. If that is true. We might as well give up looking for cures and vaccines to cancer, aids, and other viruses. "Because they haven't worked yet!"

- Drake Dracoli

[Xvall]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:48 pm on June 27, 2002
I went over this 1 million times with them, Apache, they won't really respond to it, they'll just change the subject. Communism produces almost nil invention or innovation.

Well, of course, there is the great Soviet invention of, um.......uhh.....hmmmm....

well, how about the revolutionary soviet development of, eh....

Ok, fine, how about the communist china invention of,hmmmm, uh, well, uh,...
at least they innovated the, ummm, arrrgg

Oh, yeah!!! The cubans! They created the....hmmmm, the, uh...

Darn!


CI, we gave you a whole *ucking list the other day. Did you forget it? There were hundreds and thousands of inventions.

By the way, Cuba invented the cure for Menengitis. Something America refuses to import!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 12:41 am on June 28, 2002

CI, we gave you a whole *ucking list the other day. Did you forget it? There were hundreds and thousands of inventions.

By the way, Cuba invented the cure for Menengitis. Something America refuses to import!

No, Drake, I remember, but but those were not revolutionary advances in human progression, those were mostly small technical components of existing technology, and many countries come up with those developments. They wre not eeven close to on par with things like electricity, the telephone, or the internet

[Brian]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:48 pm on June 27, 2002
I went over this 1 million times with them, Apache, they won't really respond to it, they'll just change the subject. Communism produces almost nil invention or innovation.

Well, of course, there is the great Soviet invention of, um.......uhh.....hmmmm....

well, how about the revolutionary soviet development of, eh....

Ok, fine, how about the communist china invention of,hmmmm, uh, well, uh,...
at least they innovated the, ummm, arrrgg

Oh, yeah!!! The cubans! They created the....hmmmm, the, uh...

Darn!
The Soviets were the first to put a man-made object into space.The Soviets invented APS(Automatic Protection System) and it is still used today and is effective against ATGMs.Also the Soviets made the first jet fighter to go 3 times the spped of sound,Mig-25's little single engine went as fast as the F-14TomCat's twin engines

(Edited by Brian at 7:22 pm on June 27, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

The US was the 1st to make a jet go 3 x the speed of sound, period. The SR-71, the Soviets were 1st into space, but the US far surpassed them and it is US space technology that benefits the world. And the mig 25 single engine is not faster than the F-14'S 2 engines. The mig 25 top speed is .8 mach, not even the speed of sound. F-14 can acheive 1.8. Besides, the mig-25 would be easily shot down by an F-14. Check your facts. Migs suck

[Brian]

If Migs suck so much then why were Mig-15's getting higher kill scores then Sabras? Mig-25 could keep up with the F-14 and it could shot it down,Mig-29OVT is going into production and the West is worried.If Migs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?


(Edited by Brian at 11:47 pm on June 27, 2002)

[Xvall]

Migs are cool..
I would like a Mig.. But without weapons..

[Hayduke]

Apache,

There has not been one country that may be called communist.
Every country that called them self communist were just countries
that used the term to please their people while the mighty leader
filled there pockets.

The only country that really fought for the people was Cuba, but America saw this as a enemy and send many of their cia agent to ruin the countries sugar production and to kill Fidel.
They didnt succeed but they came with the plan of "time"
Making Cuba poor by placing the embargo on it and just wait till the people will protest.

Give Communism a change before you come witht his arguments.
And the old communist countries were nothing more then fake.
Realise that buddy.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Brian on 4:26 am on June 28, 2002
If Migs suck so much then why were Mig-15's getting higher kill scores then Sabras? Mig-25 could keep up with the F-14 and it could shot it down,Mig-29OVT is going into production and the West is worried.If Migs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?


(Edited by Brian at 11:47 pm on June 27, 2002)


In actual combat all over the world, American F-series fighters dominate Migs! Any military historian will tell you this. In the eighties 4 American F-14's engaged 4 libyan migs in 2 seperate incidents. The results? 4 F-14's went home, 4 migs went down. F-15's and F-16's downed over 10 migs in iraq, with no US losses to any migs in the wasr. Israelis flying F-15's and F-16's dominated enemies flying russian fighters daily.

America has the best airforce, bar-none, and the mig-29OVT still can't compare to an F-22 Raptor!

[guerrillaradio]

The most obvious gripe with Communism is the imbalance between idealism and pragmatism is has by definition. There is just too much scope for corruption, so much power in so few hands...also, my personal political tastes demand more personal freedom and liberty than what Communism (at least the type we've seen practised so far) allows...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Brian on 4:26 am on June 28, 2002
If Migs suck so much then why were Mig-15's getting higher kill scores then Sabras? Mig-25 could keep up with the F-14 and it could shot it down,Mig-29OVT is going into production and the West is worried.If Migs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?


(Edited by Brian at 11:47 pm on June 27, 2002)


And a mig-25 can't keep up with an F-14, check your stats!

www.fas.org, military analysis link

[Brian]

When fighting Mig-25s, F-14s slow down to the speed of a Mig and then the dogfight beguins.Even if the F-14 tried to out run the Mig-25,that F-14 pilot is an idiot cause the Mig-25 is going to follow and is going to lock on and launch an Air-To-Air and it will probably hit and become another kill for the Mig-25.

[Apache]

Sorry guys, but I have been out oppressing the masses.
I also enriched my personal fortune. I think I will buy me a slave. Who makes good slaves these days? :)
WooT!

[Apache]

Brian
Also the Soviets made the first jet fighter to go 3 times the speed of sound, Mig-25's little single engine went as fast as the F-14 Tomcat’s twin engines.
Designed in 1958-62, the MiG-25 was to be used to intercept mainly the American supersonic XB-70 Valkyrie bomber, and other high-altitude fast-flying aircraft. Though it is large, heavy, and not at all technologically advanced, the MiG-25 was the fastest interceptor aircraft of its time. Armed with powerful long-range radar and large AAMs, the “Foxbat” has virtually no capability for close combat due to its bulky, unmaneuverable airframe.
MIG-25 Engines: TWO (2) Soyuz/Tumansky R-15BD-300 afterburning turbojets, 24,700 lb thrust each.

If MIGs suck so much then why were Mig-15’s getting higher kill scores then Sabers?
This is a Quote from an actual Russian pilot in Korea:
"Our attitudes towards the American pilots were complicated. During the Second World War, we had been allies against Hitler. Therefore, in Korea, we did not view the Americans as enemies, but only as opponents. Our motto in the air was 'Competition - with whomever.' "Americans attacking North Korea in our area had two main targets: The bridges across the Yalunczyan River and the Andun power station which was supplying electrical power to North Korea. Our pilots protected these two objectives with great success. Out first aerial victory was scored by Akatow who shot down an F-86 Sabre. This free pilot later died of wounds suffered in combat; he had only one aerial victory. Also killed was my friend Valentin Filimonow who was shot down when two F-86 Sabres attacked his MiG-15. "My opinions about the relative abilities of Soviet and American aircraft and pilots were as follows: I thought the American pilots were very good. Other Soviet pilots including my friends Vladimir Voistinnych and Pete Chourkin shared this opinion. However, the MiG-15 was a very good aircraft. It had only one big problem - the engine would stop abruptly during a sharp turn. As for the American aircraft: the F-80 Shooting Star was not very good, the F-84 Thunderjet was average, but the F-86 Sabre was very good.

It has always been a thorn in the side of many non-American historians that the 5th. AF pilots were credited with a 10-1 kill ratio over the Mig-15s in Korea. But the real number is actually closer to the legendary '14-1' ratio reported by 5th AF communiqué on 29 July 1953. That total was based on 820 MIGs going down, as opposed to a loss of only 58 F 86 aircraft in air-to-air combat. 5th AF revised that count in late 1953 to 792 MIGs shot down for a loss of 78 F-86 Sabres, revealing the 'official' ratio of 10-1. However, with Soviet archives material admissions of 4-1 in Soviet MIGs, and 8-1 in Chinese MIGs, the legendary 14-1 ratio seems closer to the truth. Does it really matter? 14-1, 10-1, even the revisionist historian claims of 7-1 and 4-1; it was still a slaughter.

If MIGs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?
They Don’t. Look what they did to Iraq’s Air Force. They did this with NO air-to-air losses.
DESERT STORM KILLS
DATE KILLED PILOT A/C SERIAL # UNIT TAIL CODE WEAPON
1/17/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Rob "Cheese" Graeter F-15C 85-0105 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/17/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Rob "Cheese" Graeter F-15C 85-0105 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/17/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. James Denton / Capt. Brent Brandon EF-111A 66-016 42nd ECS, 66th ECW UH Out-Maneuvering
1/17/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Steve Tate F-15C 83-0017 71st TFS, 1st TFW FF AIM-7M
1/17/91 MiG-29 Capt. Jon K. "J.B." Kelk F-15C 85-0125 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/17/91 MiG-21 LCDR Mark Fox F/A-18C 163508 VFA-81 AA AIM-9M
1/17/91 MiG-21 Lt. Nick Mongillo F/A-18C 163502 VFA-81 AA AIM-7M
1/17/91 MiG-29 Capt. Rhory "Hoser" Draeger F-15C 85-0108 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/17/91 MiG-29 Capt. Charles "Sly" Magill, USMC F-15C 85-0107 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/19/91 MiG-25 Capt. Larry "Cherry" Pitts F-15C 85-0099 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/19/91 MiG-25 Capt. Richard "Kluso" Tollini F-15C 85-0101 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/19/91 MiG-29 Capt. Craig "Mole" Underhill F-15C 85-0122 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/19/91 MiG-29 Capt. Cesar "Rico" Rodriguez, Jr. F-15C 85-0114 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG Out-Maneuvering
1/19/91 Mirage F-1EQ 1Lt David Sveden F-15C 79-0021 32th TFS, 32rd TFG EG AIM-7M
1/19/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. David Prather F-15C 79-0069 525th TFS, 36rd TFW BT AIM-7M
1/24/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Ayhed Salad Al-Shamrani F-15C -- RSAF -- AIM-9P
1/24/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Ayhed Salad Al-Shamrani F-15C -- RSAF -- AIM-9P
1/26/91 MiG-23 Capt. Anthony "Kimo" Schiavi F-15C 85-0104 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/26/91 MiG-23 Capt. Rhory "Hoser" Draeger F-15C 85-0119 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/26/91 MiG-23 Capt. Cesar "Rico" Rodriguez Jr. F-15C 85-0114 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
1/27/91 Mirage F-1EQ Capt. Bejamin Powell F-15C 84-0027 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
1/27/91 MiG-23 Capt. Bejamin Powell F-15C 84-0027 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
1/27/91 MiG-23 Capt. Jay Denney F-15C 84-0025 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
1/27/91 MiG-23 Capt. Jay Denney F-15C 84-0025 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
1/28/91 MiG-23 Capt. Donald "Muddy" Watrous F-15C 79-0022 525th TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
1/29/91 MiG-23 Capt. David Rose F-15C 85-0102 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
2/02/91 IL-76 Capt. Gregory "Dutch" Masters F-15C 79-0074 525th TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
2/06/91 SU-25 1Lt. Robert "Digs" Hehemann F-15C 84-0019 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
2/06/91 SU-25 1Lt. Robert "Digs" Hehemann F-15C 84-0019 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
2/06/91 MiG-21 Capt. Thomas "Vegas" Dietz F-15C 79-0078 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
2/06/91 Mil-8 Lt. Donald Broce, CMR Ron McElraft F-14A 162603 VF-1 NE AIM-9M
2/06/91 Bo-105 Capt. Robert Swain Jr. A-10A 72-0205 706th TFS, 926th TFW NO GUA-8
2/07/91 SU-20/22 Capt. Anthony Murphy F-15C 85-0102 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
2/07/91 SU-20/22 Capt. Anthony Murphy F-15C 85-0102 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
2/07/91 SU-20/22 Col. Rick Parsons F-15C 85-0124 58th TFS, 33rd TFW EG AIM-7M
2/07/91 Helicopter Maj. Randy May F-15C 80-0003 525th TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
2/11/91 Mil-8 Capt. Steve Dingee F-15C 79-0048 525th TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
2/11/91 Mil-8 Capt. Mark Mckenzie F-15C 80-0012 525th TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-7M
2/14/91 Helicopter Capt. Richard Bennett, Capt. Dan Bakke F-15E 89-0487 335th TFS, 4th TFW SJ GBU-10
2/15/91 Mil-8 Capt. Todd Sheehy A-10A 81-0964 511 TFS, 10th TFW AR GUA-8
3/20/91 SU-22M Capt. John Doneski F-15C 84-0014 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
3/22/91 SU-22M Capt. Thomas "Vegas" Dietz F-15C 84-0010 53rd TFS, 36th TFW BT AIM-9M
3/22/91 SU-22M 1Lt Robert "Digs" Hehemann F-15C 84-0015 53rd TFS, 36th TFW

When fighting Mig-25s, F-14s slow down to the speed of a MIG and then the dogfight begins. Even if the F-14 tried to out run the Mig-25, that F-14 pilot is an idiot cause the Mig-25 is going to follow and is going to lock on and launch an Air-To-Air and it will probably hit and become another kill for the Mig-25.
Actually, the MIG-25 does not have ANY confirmed kills in combat.

[Apache]

BRIAN: Here is a short article I grabbed on IAF vs. Syrian Combat. Syria did really poor. :)
More than 25 years after its service entry, the Eagle is still considered the best air superiority fighter in the world and is operated by the U.S.A, Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. While no Eagle has ever been shot down in combat, F-15s have shot down over 90 opponents, the majority of these while in service with the Israeli Air Force.
The Israeli aqcuisition of the F-15 Eagle was initiated under the Peace Fox programme in 1975 and Israel became the type's first export customer. The requirement for a new air superiority fighter emerged after the 1973 Yom-Kippur war and the great changes the IAF underwent to deal with threats revealed in that war (these changes included the aqcuisition of the F-15, F-16, and Cobra gunships to name a few). The first and foremost Arab threat to Israeli air supremacy was the MiG-25, operating from Arab countries, routinely overflying Israel unhampered. The first 4 IAF Eagles arrived on December 10th 1976 and on the same day scored their first kill. Arriving on Friday, within the Jewish Sabbath, this prompted religious parties in Israel's parliament, the Knesset, to topple the government of Prime Minister Itzchak Rabin. The first 4 were nicknamed "Sufa", "Sa'ar" (Storm and Tempest, the same names given to the first IAF Gloster Meteors), "Barak" (Lightning) and Ra'am (Thunder), while the type was commonly known as the "Baz" (Falcon). The remaining 21 aircraft of the initial order, 19 F-15As and 2 F-15Bs were delivered during 1977 and with the arrival of the Eagle, MiG-25 flights over Israel ceased to take place.
The F-15 went into action for the first time during March 1978, flying top cover for Israeli ground operations against Palestinian terrorists in Southern Lebanon. Only on July 27th 1979 did the Eagles score their first air-to-air victory. The IAF had sent the Eagles to protect aircraft flying attack sorties against PLO targets in Lebanon when 8 Syrian MiG-21s attempted to engage the attacking aircraft. Five MiG-21s were downed using missiles and cannons in the Eagle's first engagement worldwide. Four more MiGs were downed in September 1979, another MiG in late 1980 and another pair on December 31st, 1980. As formerly mentioned, one of the prime reason for the developement of the F-15 and its acquisition by the IAF had been the MiG-25 Foxbat, which had frustrated the IAF in the early 1970s. On February 13th, 1981, an opportunity was finally awarded to the F-15 to engage the Foxbat, and in the first worldwide kill of the type, an IAF F-15 shot down a Foxbat. Another MiG-25 was downed on July 29th and a third on August 31st, 1982, in a joint F-15 - Hawk SAM ambush. F-15As also flew top cover for F-16 Fighting Falcons during their famous attack of the Osirak Nuclear Plant in Baghdad, on June 7th, 1981, escorting the Falcons all the way to the Iraqi capital.
On June 6th, 1982, Israel began operation "Peace For Gaillee" and its ground forces pushed into Lebanon in pursuit of Palestinian terrorists. Contact was expected to be made with the Syrians, the main power broker in Lebanon, but during the first days of the fighting the Syrians mainly kept their forces at bay, only a few dogfights taking place. Only as IDF forces continued their push northward into Lebanon, approaching areas under Syrian control, did contact become inevitable and the IAF got to exercise its full ability. On June 9th a single IAF pilot managed to shoot down four Syrian MiGs and land his aircraft after it was hit by an air-to-air missile. By the end of the first week of hostilities, over 85 Syrian aircraft had been shot down, 40 of them by IAF F-15 Eagles. Most kills were made with either the AIM-9 Sidewinder or the Israeli Python 3 short range missiles, a few (including the various MiG-25s) were shot down with the AIM-7 Sparrow, while a number of aircraft were cannon kills.


(Edited by Apache at 1:55 am on June 29, 2002)

[Brian]

No! 1100 F-86's were shotdown,your Mig count is right.Stop going to fucking Western sites and maybe you will get a correct answer.Those Mig-25s are downgraded and then shipped to other middle-easer naton .F-15 was fighting a downgraded Mig-25 with cheap chinese Air-To-Air missiles and cheap bulit radar.Russian/Soviet Mig-25 is out of date,but its upgraded version (Mig-31) is pretty much upgraded everything with new radar and can detect such aircraft as the F-22Raptor and can intercept it with Air-To-Ground help and Radar until the it can direct were it is and Launch it's R-77 Long Range ATA missiles.Also most Nations are buliting Anti-Stealth Radar even the Chezs.Also I know the Mig-25 has two engines I just forgot thank you.

[Brian]

It has always been a thorn in the side of many non-American historians that the 5th. AF pilots were credited with a 10-1 kill ratio over the Mig-15s in Korea. But the real number is actually closer to the legendary '14-1' ratio reported by 5th AF communiqué on 29 July 1953. That total was based on 820 MIGs going down, as opposed to a loss of only 58 F 86 aircraft in air-to-air combat. 5th AF revised that count in late 1953 to 792 MIGs shot down for a loss of 78 F-86 Sabres, revealing the 'official' ratio of 10-1. However, with Soviet archives material admissions of 4-1 in Soviet MIGs, and 8-1 in Chinese MIGs, the legendary 14-1 ratio seems closer to the truth. Does it really matter? 14-1, 10-1, even the revisionist historian claims of 7-1 and 4-1; it was still a slaughter.

If MIGs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?
They Don’t. Look what they did to Iraq’s Air Force. They did this with NO air-to-air losses.

Actually, the MIG-25 does not have ANY confirmed kills in combat.



Well Iraqi fighters were downgraded and *armed with Short cheap Air-To-Air missiles *and there pilots had very very poor trainning *and not one Mig-29 made it off the ground,whould do you expect.Mig-25 has no Comfired kills in combat?,give me a break.Please Apache and stop *posting your Discover Channel facts.

(Edited by Brian at 9:59 am on June 29, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

This is pure speculation, but I too think that Iraqi pilots receive training that is inferior to that of the Russians.

[Brian]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:24 pm on June 28, 2002

Quote: from Brian on 4:26 am on June 28, 2002
If Migs suck so much then why were Mig-15's getting higher kill scores then Sabras? Mig-25 could keep up with the F-14 and it could shot it down,Mig-29OVT is going into production and the West is worried.If Migs sucked so much then why do U.S pilots fear them?


(Edited by Brian at 11:47 pm on June 27, 2002)


And a mig-25 can't keep up with an F-14, check your stats!

www.fas.org, military analysis link
Are you on crack? The Mig-25's max speed is 2.35 . the F-14's curising speed is .75 and the Mig-25's curising speed is .85 .

I don't see how the F-14 is faster?


(Edited by Brian at 7:00 pm on June 29, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Whatever happened to the debate between D Day and Apache???

[Angie]

Do you have nude pics of Angie?LOL! :biggrin: I'll leave that to your imagination, shall I?


But seriously.. That's very disrespectul to Angie.Not really, no - I have a particularly open mind, an inquisitive nature, a wicked sense of humour, and some interesting stories to tell...

Everything's grand, hon, thanks all the same.

(Edited by Angie at 11:25 pm on July 1, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 4:48 am on June 28, 2002
Migs are cool..
I would like a Mig.. But without weapons..


I thought the ukraine was selling migs for a few million each right now, go snatch 'em up!

[Child of Revolution]

Apache?
deaths traced to communism or stalin. Stop bein' so biased you biased bastard.
ps. i cant talk