let me break it down for you

[uth1984]

Communists/socialists are NOT AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH/EXPRESSION. We DO NOT WANT WHAT HAPPENED IN STALINIST RUSSIA. All you you who against socialism because you think socialist states are gonna lock people in Gulags, kill millions to achieve utopia, etc, I used to think that, but the truth is that socilism woud in no way restrict us, the government would not imprison us.
I agree, that would be shit., but that isnt socialism.
BNut people who against socialism because it would restrict capitalism, christ they scare the piss out of me.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Let me break it down for you, sir.

No previous communist or socialist regime set out to commit these atrocities for the sake of commiting them, either. Those atrocities were just a logical progression of how communism and socialism evolves into an oppressive state and starts oppressing/murdering its people after the people realize the system doesn't work as planned and start to revolt or disagree with the system.

[Michael De Panama]

Yeah, I used to think that's what communism stood for before I actually read up on it. Before I became a commie myself. A good example of how significant capitalist propaganda is in our society.

This is something that most cappies come here to yell at us about. The first posts made by new cappies are always filled with ignorance and a repetition of old arguments we have already disproven hundreds of times. Then we have to begin the process of educating them on what we actually stand for, which is long and tiring.

Personally, as a commie, I am more against totalitarian communism than I am of capitalism, which I'm sure was made obvious from the whole Stalinist war that went on here. That's not to say that I'm not against capitalism, of course. The true commie should be against any system that holds one class above the other, and this includes Stalinism.

[Ernest Everhard]

the thing everytime a "cappie" puts forth a moral argument for capitalism and any sort of moral and utilitarian criticism of communism you ignore him or her. You've set up the totalitarian argument against capitalism as a strawman to make your polemical opponents appears deluded, rather you should realize that most objections of socialism arise from its inherent moral faults.

[El Che]

Hahaha, thats very funny Ernest.

Moral objection to Socialism:biggrin:

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 8:51 pm on June 26, 2002
Yeah, I used to think that's what communism stood for before I actually read up on it. Before I became a commie myself. A good example of how significant capitalist propaganda is in our society.

This is something that most cappies come here to yell at us about. The first posts made by new cappies are always filled with ignorance and a repetition of old arguments we have already disproven hundreds of times. Then we have to begin the process of educating them on what we actually stand for, which is long and tiring.

Personally, as a commie, I am more against totalitarian communism than I am of capitalism, which I'm sure was made obvious from the whole Stalinist war that went on here. That's not to say that I'm not against capitalism, of course. The true commie should be against any system that holds one class above the other, and this includes Stalinism.


Thats the point, Panama, you have NOT dissproven our initial arguements. You have failed to disprove our arguements both in theory and in real life application. Especially in real life. An don't tellme trur communism has never been practiced, because it has, it just quickly evovlves into a ayatem that even so-called "true communists" reject. But this is just communism at its natural end.

[RGacky3]

CI I hate you, who don't you die, go hang your self.

AND the only communist states that have oppressed was the USSR under 2 leaders ( the rest were fine), China under Mao, and perhaps a bit by Cuba. I don't consider north vietnam communist so I won't meniton them. Others such as nigeruagua, Vietnam, Lybia, Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, as well as countless communes that have worked.

[Apache]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 3:02 pm on June 26, 2002
CI I hate you, who don't you die, go hang your self.

Hopefully, he will do a murder/suicide but lose interest in the idea AFTER he blows your brains out with a large caliber hand gun.

RGacky3: ALL Commie states oppress their own people.
Do you think Tienanmen square was just a rowdy camp-out?
Do you think that North Korea is great place to vacation?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 11:02 pm on June 26, 2002
CI I hate you, who don't you die, go hang your self.

AND the only communist states that have oppressed was the USSR under 2 leaders ( the rest were fine), China under Mao, and perhaps a bit by Cuba. I don't consider north vietnam communist so I won't meniton them. Others such as nigeruagua, Vietnam, Lybia, Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, as well as countless communes that have worked.


I love you too, gacky, but those states you mentioned are not pure communist, they are mixed economies/ideologies, with a healthy dose of capitalism thrown in. They are also US allies and trading partners. (Except Lybia)

[Ernest Everhard]

yup moral objections to socialism, if you ask i'll tell you all about them for the umpteenth time.

[Mazdak]

what is wrong with killing people who are trying to dsetroy your state?

[Capitalist Fighter]

Gacky grow up. If you cannot handle debate then leave this forum.

[Apache]

Quote: from Mazdak on 6:48 pm on June 26, 2002
what is wrong with killing people who are trying to dsetroy your state?


That one SCREAMS Signature material!!!!
May I?

Oh, heck I'm a cappi, I'll just take it.

[Stormin Norman]

Uth1984,

Okay, I'm convinced. Your argument is so strong that I will now abandon all of my previous misconceptions and convert to a commie pinko. You must be joking. How will you ensure the freedom of the people when it is necessary to violate the principles of a democratic state in order to implement such a system? How are you going to guarantee that my rights are not being trampled when you force me to forfiet some of my income for the sake of 'equality'? Every example of government violating the free speech clause in the Bill of Rights has be perpetrated by a liberal, with the exception of the flag burning amendments that conservatives have attempted to pass through congress. Why don't you realize that your philosophy is one that is supported by people who are inferior enough to want the fruits of another man's labor? When will you accept what most educated people already know? Free enterprise capitalism is superior to communism/socialism.

[Stormin Norman]

In case you haven't read it before I will post part of my critique of communism here. Some of you may have read it already, and I apologize. I feel that it demonstrates the monsterous nature of communism and the effect that such a hideous train of thought can have in depopulating the globe.

Death toll of communism

Of course, not all communists or socialists are inherently evil. Many look at the inequality of income and find it unacceptable to have such poverty in an industrial nation like ours. In fact, Marx was highly critical of these disparities of income and used it as reasoning for violent revolution. That is the great danger of Marxist philosophy. The ability the get the majority to condone such violence. In truth, it takes a certain power thirsty mindset to seize control of an economy. Men such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Castro all fit the description. This brand of person has no concern for human rights and will exterminate anyone who opposes their supremacy. To conclude our discussion we will need to take a look at the human rights records of nations who took Marxism to its only logical conclusion.
It has been estimated that between 85 to 100 million people were systematically exterminated under communist rule. Mao’s regime took control, exterminated political opponents, and used public execution as a form of public education. So far, the numbers in China reach 65 million dead. Under his massive attempt to industrialize his nation, 30 million died of starvation. Mao’s industrial campaign is the hallmark of communist crimes, he has proved himself most efficient in ridding the world of population. Terror was also tailored by rulers in Cambodia, North Korea, and Vietnam, and sanctioned by China as a way of expanding communist influence in the West Pacific. These deaths totalled 5 million. The second highest death toll took place in Russia over the course of communist rule. Russia being the first to implement communism became the model for all those who followed. 20 million died here resulting from the combination of the Bolshevik revolution, and various secret police organizations with their systematic removal of political opponents. It is common practice for communist nations to use people’s stomachs as a method of controlling their minds. Stalin invented this despicable method. Many of those 20 million people died of starvation. The methods employed to assure power were also employed in Eastern Europe under the Soviet communist block as well as in Afghanistan. No one was immune to the killing. Party leaders were often disposed of, by state sanctioned murder when their views became politically unpopular. Even Krushchev denounced the many communist crimes in a “secret speech” in 1956. In 1961, Krushchev recommended a monument be constructed for all the forgotten dead. Remarkably, he was not terminated, but relieved of his position as First Secretary. The communist crimes, that were so diligently covered up, were beginning to make it to the forefront. There have been many attempts to compare Nazi war crimes with those of the communist nations. The main difference being the motivations. Nazis used race as the measurement, where communists used class. Instead of genocide, communists used politicide. The fundamental similarity has been the universal dehumanizing nature that must occur for people to support such atrocities. The victims must be thought of as less than human in order for mass murder of such scale to be employed. When studying communism ask yourself which alienates people more, a market mechanism that subjects all parts of the market to the invisible hand of supply and demand, or the depopulating nature of such centralized governments.