Okay guys, here we go........ [Archive]

American Kid

26th June 2002, 05:25

First off I want to say that I really, sincerely do not wish to come here and wantonly create discorse or even provoke people into a "fight". I realize given my political views I am behind enemy lines, but I take it this is a legitimate arena for DEBATE, and that is what I genuinely am excited (and aim) to do.

I'm an American kid (hence my "moniker"). I'm 23 years old and I basically grew up dirt poor. I'm a struggling young writer. I love emo music and Woody Allen films. I work a shitty nine-to-five job to pay the bills, while waiting to be "discovered" or "break-through".

That said, I, in no way, consider myself to be a SLAVE, or my employer (who, for amusement's sake, given the forum, is, in fact, a big, evil corporation) to be my master. Though I admit I always get nervous when the general manager makes her rounds to come and check up on us. I iron my clothes on those days. I'm not quite sure if I fit the definition of what Marx so reverently referred to as the "proletariat", and if I do, with a conviction wrought of outrage, I wholeheartedly reject it. I don't need Marx (or Engels, or any of the other rag-tag, police-line-up cronies) to stick up for me and dry my tears and give me a shoulder to cry on because I "don't own any land." I'm poor. But I pay my bills. I pay my rent. I can put food on the table. And I'm happy. If I'm stuck in this limbo for another 20 years before I'm published (or WHATEVER) it'll have been worth it. And big business or big, evil capitalism has had absolutely ZERO influence in this matter. I CHOSE not to go to college. Therefore I don't have a high paying job. And therefore I'm less "educated" than others (ie, don't have a degree or anything) so I work nine to five. And I'm NOT bitter about this. I had the CHOICE. It'll have been worth it because I was able to live the life I CHOSE, as apposed to whatever "job" the government could ever cordially assign me, first of all. And it'll have been worth it because during this entire time I will be able to enjoy the FREEDOMS that my government allows me. Put basically, I get to listen to the CD's I want to. During my research on communism lately, I've been horrified to learn how awful it is. Espically being a writer, it's a NIGHTMARE scenario to even CONCIEVE of living in a state where I wouldn't be allowed to write ANYTHING I wish. I challenge anyone here to defend with any "justification" communism's inherent censorship- and OPPRESION. The inherent evil of communism is: you don't have a choice. No one does. From the time you're born, "you're" not even your parents'. You "belong" to the state (absolutely de-huminzing this is).You preach freedom--- the proleteriat rising up and breaking his chains, emancipating himself from his master. Looks good on paper. But when applied in the "real world", it's the stuff nightmares are made of. Every piece of "art" is closely scrutinized by the goverment for potential "Counterrevolutionary" content. There is no freedom of the press. YOU PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT WHERE THERE'S NO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!!! Christ almighty (whoops, sorry....). In other words you want all the information that flows through this world to be stopped and carefully filtered by a bunch of beureacrats because you're not mature enough to think for yourselves? My God.....

Sure, you have free health coverage. But yeah, the doctor fixes you up, and then it's right back out in the fields for another 14 hour work day. Great........

There's more (so much more), but in all seriousness, I'm tired and I want to go to bed. Gotta get up early for work tomorrow. Wake up, have breakfast, read the non-state controlled newspaper, put on a reactionary rock and roll band on my CD player, slap on the shackles, bow to my employers knees, watch him grin as he throws away the keys...........

right?

-with a smile on my face (as the warm orange sun hits my face and I close my eyes/ bask triumphantly in my freedom......)

AK

PS-I grew up poor. And I'm not bitter about it. And I've known many homeless people. And trust me (I'm speaking from experience here) most of them deserved it. The ones who didn't got themselves together and no longer are. And it had nothing to do with capitalism. Homelessness and poverty are human, INNER-SPIRIT, and strength-related states of being. Clean yourself up, arch your back up straight, and there are programs out there to help, you can dig your way out. Believe me, I've seen it.

And as far as the bourgesie, some of my very best friends in the world are absolutely, obscenely, out-of-this-world fucking wealthy. And they're wonderful people. Their parents are bright, ambitious individuals who worked very, VERY hard to get where they are in life. They own many nice cars and home entertainment systems. They own a lot of houses and A LOT of land. And you know what? They deserve it.

Brian

26th June 2002, 05:50

At least you have a job,Im a bum and a college drop out.

peaccenicked

26th June 2002, 06:00

Quote: from American Kid on 5:25 am on June 26, 2002
. YOU PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT WHERE THERE'S NO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!!! Christ almighty (whoops, sorry....). In other words you want all the information that flows through this world to be stopped and carefully filtered by a bunch of beureacrats because you're not mature enough to think for yourselves? My God.....

First of all you confuse communism with Stalinism.
one wants real freedom of the press, the other cant stand it just like Capitalists everywhere they dont want
a free press they want yes men who will support the war machine and tell lies as much so that will keep them in power.
There is no such thing as the deserving poor or the deserving rich. Everybody deserves everything, then we can really sort out the worlds problems. The thing is there is enough to go round. Yeh really.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:02 am on June 26, 2002)

Stormin Norman

26th June 2002, 09:10

American Kid,

Congratulations. You are a bright individual with enough sense to realize the value of free choice and free expression. I loved your post because it came straight form the heart. It is never too late to go to school, in your case it would be a waste of a good mind. You seem intelligent enough not to be corrupted by the liberal conspiracy that persists on the college campus.

Peacenicked,

You claim that everyone is confusing Stalinism with Marxism. I think you are the one who is confused. You are mistaken if you think the immoral philosophy preached by Marxists can lead to anything but a totalitarian government. Tell me how is there a free press when the means of producing media are owned by the state? Won't the state use their power monopoly in order to surpress government criticism? Also, how does centeralizing the means of production place those tools in the hands of the people? Wouldn't the capital be own by the state? You are mistaken if you think that communism can result in anything except state run capitalism. The reason it never works out like Marx promised is because Marx was a self hating bastard who wanted everyone to be just as miserable as he was. Not to mention the fact that he was a poor provider for his family and generally a worthless father.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 9:12 pm on June 26, 2002)

Guest1

26th June 2002, 10:14

hmm... well, your personal attacks against Marx have really convinced me of the evil of Communism. Marx was a failure in life, which is why sharing wealth justly is an evil ideology, why didn't I think of that before???

Under a proper system, the means of production would not be controlled by a centralized government, but rather by worker's organizations.

Stormin Norman

26th June 2002, 11:49

These are not personal attacks on Marx, but simple cut and dry fact. Well, except for the statement that he knew what the results of communism would be, which was pure extrapolation on my part. However, I think it is a reasonable assumption. If you want the long version of my criticism of Marxism, go to thw thread 'my odd description of capitalism', it is posted there. Maybe that will convince you that my critique is a sound one.

James

26th June 2002, 12:28

I think that the public held view of communism, is the USSR. Or 1984. This is very wrong, because it ruins it for the people that are actually communists, and not dictators. This is from Moskitto's site (which is very good by the way);
Anarchy: The belief that all forms of government are wrong.

Authoritarianism: The belief in the government being the authority for peoples lives.

Communism: A form of socialism which (according to Marx) is the final stage of human society. Where everything is controlled by everyone and the state withers away. However the idea has been corrupted by leaders such as Stalin who used it for their own power.

Council Communism: A form of communism whereby the means of production is organized at a local level, allowing for easier monitoring of production and more democracy than a central government. This is what I am and it has nothing to do with the USSR.

Democratic Socialism: The Belief that socialism can and should be achieved through democratic means rather than violence and oppression. Most socialists would describe themselves as Democratic Socialists.

Reform Communism: A form of Communism which was a reaction to the Stalinist regime in the USSR.

Fascism: A form of totalitarianism which believes in the supreme authority and devotion to the state and it's ideals. Fascist regimes existed in Germany 1933-1945 under Hitler, Italy 1928-1943 under Mussolini, Spain 1939-1975 under General Franco and Portugal 1928-1974 under Salavar.

Guild Socialism: A form of socialism that believes that the means of production should be organized by unions.

Hoxhaism/Kiminism: A very extreme form of communism which believes in total isolation from the rest of the world and a totalitarian government.

Libertarianism: The belief in the government keeping out of the peoples lives.

Leninism: Annother form of communism whereby the means of production would be organized centrally by a strong government.

Maoism: A form of government similar to Stalinism which calls for nationalism as well as government control. Maoist Regimes include China 1949-1976 under Mao Tse Dung and North Vietnam 1954-1970 under Ho Chi Mihn.

Marxism: A form of socialism based on the theories of 19th century Philosopher and Economist Karl Marx. Marxism believes in stages of human development going through Communal Living, Slavery, Fuedelism, Capitalism then finally Communism. They believe in a revolution of the "Proletariat" to overthrow the "Bourgeois." This idea has sadly lead to many communist regimes killing the middle classes.

Radicalism: The belief that the current system needs a lot of changes. Historically radicals have included Abolitionists, Suffragetes and De-Segregationists. Nowadays Radicals are Socialists, Anti-Capitalists and Republicans in the UK.

Social Democracy: A moderate form of Socialism which believes rather than elimating business, believes in restricting businesses by taxes and laws. The best example of social democracy is probably Sweden.

Socialism: The belief that the means of production should be controlled by the people rather than corporations.

Stalinism: A form of totalitarian communism which ties absolute government control, Socialism in one country, A strong army and no freedom of speach. Such regimes existed in the USSR from 1924-1953 under Iofif Stalin and in Romania from 1965-1989 under Nicolae Ceauescu. Stalinists are fiercly oppossed to the ideas of Reform Communism, Trotskyism and Social Democracy.

Totalitarianism: A form of government which believes in the sole authority of the government under the "Party" or leader. Examples of Totalitarianism are Stalinism, Fascism and Military Juntas.

Trotskyism: A form of communism which believes in spreading the revolution world wide. While Trotsky advocates a one-party state he also says that everyone must have freedom of speach. Better theories on freedom of speach are probably those of Rosa Luxemburg.

May i ask you AK, what have you actually read about? Sources? Links? People?

James

26th June 2002, 12:37

Oh yeah, and...

You claim that everyone is confusing Stalinism with Marxism Quote him.

Tell me how is there a free press when the means of producing media are owned by the state? Won't the state use their power monopoly in order to surpress government criticism? ahem...Stalinism

concerned

26th June 2002, 14:10

AK,
Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post and admire your vies and attitude. I wish you good luck on your writing career!

IzmSchism

26th June 2002, 15:13

"Philosphophers analyze the world- the point is to change it"-

Hey American Kid, sit on your ass just getting by, punching your card for 20 years, being nervous when your manager comes by doing her rounds....waiting for your writing career to come around, but as you sit on your ass collecting your check doing your time, you afford the liberty and freedoms from your country at the expense of many others freedoms.

American Kid

26th June 2002, 15:59

Thanks.

First of all I don't sit on my ass all day. I work hard at my job and I'm good at it. I don't punch in any "card", I clock in on a computer. And yes, I will continue to get nervous in my regional manager's presence because she's a ****. Hopefully soon she'll be replaced.

You should be horrified to learn however I have an amazing relationship with my store boss and I think he's a great guy. He even gave me a ride home yesterday.

And as for my freedoms coming at the expense of others, I take it you are referring to the unfortunate situation wherein a half dozen Bolivian kids are paid 13 cents an hour to assemble a hundred soccer balls a day.

Of course, this is ABHORANT. However, it's not my fault. Their government should step in and wrap my evil government's knuckles. They could do it. Their balls just have to drop.

Now to zap a burrito in the microwave and watch a little pro wrestling.

-AK

IzmSchism

26th June 2002, 16:20

abhorrent. i oppose.

nervousness in the face of someone who is a "****," (for lack of a better word bcoz I do not know her) is something to work on. That is cool that you have a good relationship with your boss, I think there is nothing better than a team environment in a work setting, people that you can laugh off the mundanity of work with and find good conversation.

And....no I do not specifically refer to sweatshops, although I do have issues with the whole thing and think that companies should have their Board of directors go down and sow a couple balls and maybe their perspective might change. But the ball doesn't stop there American Kid, the blowback from so much of american foreign policy is always coming back, i.e., 9-11, bin laden and the taliban, we used them, trained them to fight off the USSR, then pulled out, let the oppresive taliban rule, letting them oppress the lives of women and children just so we could live peacefully in our little bubble safe from the evils of Russia, it goes on and on.

IzmSchism

26th June 2002, 16:22

oh yeah,

"However, it's not my fault. Their government should step in and wrap my evil government's knuckles. They could do it. Their balls just have to drop."

this is the solution we have been waiting for.

marxistdisciple

26th June 2002, 19:51

Well the government won't step into something that will damage the economy, if they even see a sign the economy is being damaged they give the corporations what they want. I am glad that you believe in hard work AK, it's a good virtue, and I admire that you choose to post your views straight into the hellmouth (I suppose you could call it that based on critique of capitalism.)

I disagree with your interpretation of communism, as it has been rightly pointed out, stalinism is not the same as marxism. In fact there are many different versions of "communism." For all intensive purposes, I use marxism as the major form, being as he wrote the manifesto in the first place, it seems logical. Stalin's rule was a dictatorship, but marx believed in total democracy.

The state does own everything, but as the people are completely in control of the state, all decisions are made demotcratically, in theory at least. I think my name is a little misleading, I called myself marxistdisciple, cause my usual screename is disciple3d (came from my band name...not important) but I don't pretend to advocate all marx and lenin's views. I just believe we can take the moral idealism that marx was so talented with, and work some of his ideas into a modern setting.

The problem with capitalism is, inherantly someone has to suffer. Living conditions have increased in the western world in the last few years especially, but then most of our manufacturing industry has been exported to countries with cheaper labour. The thing I don't like about capitalism is it's inherrantly flawed principal, that capital is somehow related to worth.

It is never related to worth, except by a tenuous supply and demand theory. Communism is based on the belief that work is an priceless commodity, and should not be valued as everything is in capitalism. Consistently capitalists must value everything in society, from consumer goods, all the way up to human life. This is how companies deal with legal cases surrounding their products for example (you may remember the american scandal regarding recalling cars because the lawsuits for deaths would cost less. They in fact miscalculated in this case.)

Communism does not place a value on work, or goods, or art, or music. It simply runs by the principals that everyone gives what they can, and they take what they need. People are not bound by money, or society. They choose their own path in life, they work where they can, and where they want, and they will always recieve the vital basic needs. (Food, education, healthcare etc.) There are many complicated extraneous theroies, but if you understand that basic principal the rest becomes simpler to understand I think. I think if people misunderstand the actual values of communism, they destroy it's reputation. It may be idealogical, but there is no reason it cannot work sometime in the future, when the conditions are appropriate.

I hope you meet your goal to continue in a writing career, it's something I would love to do myself in the future, if it were possible for me.
Follow your dreams, don't let things like money stand in your way.

El Che

26th June 2002, 21:54

They say ignorance is arrogante, they dont know how right they are.

American kid procedes to make a series of summary declarations explaining what Communism is. I am a Communist and don`t defend one single thing you mentioned. So if you want to mantain your understanding of the concept communism, then by all means you are free to do so, after all there are individuals that defend the things you point out as negative. But just be sure to make a new concept for those like me, those that defend the Socialist project and yet at the same time will not sacrifice fundamental values such as democracy and any number of freedoms.

If you pressume to tell me what I believe in, then I will get upset. If you pressume to tell me that only your definition of the concept Communism holds water, then I will help you with your learning difficulties.

You don`t mind being poor? I see, and your point is? who cares what you mind? If you want some friendly advice: don`t do drugs. Say someone steals your stuff, you can choose "not to mind", but that says nothing to the fact that and unjustice has been comited against you, if you dont mind then thats fine, you do what you want. But nos outros, we demand justice.

The poor are poor because they deserve it, and the rich are rich because they deserve it.--- Even sketiching an argument against that, would be in its self degrading the debate to a level I choose to avoid.

(Edited by El Che at 10:04 pm on June 26, 2002)

RGacky3

26th June 2002, 22:57

American kid, go to your boss, say fuck you, quit your job, and look for another one that pays more .................. you can't becouse you need to feed yourself, you are a slave my freind. Communism has nothing to do with cencorship or oppression, read about socialism or communism in some book or something, don't base your view of socialism on what the government tells you. Stormin Norman I can give you many examples of socialist states that also have many freedoms, (Nigeragua, Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, Vietnam), American Kid, read about communism before you make statements such as "YOU PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT WHERE THERE'S NO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!!! " I won't ***** at you becouse you obviously don't know much about socialism.

RGacky3

26th June 2002, 23:05

Here's a list of DEMOCRATIC communist socialist countries, Nigeragua, Sweeden, Norway, switzerland, Vietnam, Hungry and Poland just voted in a Communist government. If I had time to think I could probably find many more.

Moskitto

26th June 2002, 23:08

Some stuff that I was going to put on my site I decided to take off because it would probably get removed if I posted it anywhere. I think I might put it back on.

Or I could finish my Anti-WCOTC website first.

Apache

26th June 2002, 23:42

American Kid:, don't worry about causing discord on this board because most of these kids can not agree on what "REAL" communism is about between themselves. They say that we have never had a "REAL" communistic government in the world despite the countless attempts and the approximately 85,000,000 dead that were created in the name of their ideology.
Also if you read their profiles, they are almost all from Western or West European countries that take care of their ass from cradle-to-grave, after they are done living off of what their mommies and daddies earned, and could not come up with anything more original than chanting some revolutionary slogan they read in a book because they think it sounds cool.
You will also notice that you have NO participants from commie countries like "CUBA", "North Korea", "Viet Nam", and of course "Communist China". If there are any from thee countries, I have yet to hear about them.
Now they will tell you that these are not "REAL" communist countries and that they are pursuing a higher ideal.
The only higher ideal that exist in the future of communism is in their own minds.
Communism is in the Cat Box of history and the box is about to be cleaned.
:)

guerrillaradio

26th June 2002, 23:52

AK - good luck on your writing, the world needs more creativists. Emo and Woody's a good mix, you sound the kinda guy I'd get on with...I am also anti-communist, I fall somewhere under libertarian socialist.

Onto your point about sweatshops, the government would improve the workers' situation but they can't for the simple reason that if they were, they risk losing the corporation's business, thus damaging the economy, which they are (or should be) trying to bring up to Western levels. So in a sense, American corporations and their economies are keeping the Third World down. Obviously, it's not that simple, but it's definitely a factor. Multinational corporations, making billions and billions of dollar profits a year however, are in a position to demand better working conditions for those that they use to make their products, they just choose not cos of the (proportionally tiny) amount they will lose. So, in that sense, money is to blame. It all makes sense when you think about it.

Apache

27th June 2002, 00:01

Onto your point about sweatshops, the government would improve the workers' situation but they can't for the simple reason that if they were, they risk losing the corporation's business, thus damaging the economy, which they are (or should be) trying to bring up to Western levels. So in a sense, American corporations and their economies are keeping the Third World down. Obviously, it's not that simple, but it's definitely a factor.
That statement is not true. My Brother works for a large communications company that contract to factories in China.
They regularly make inspections to see that the Chinese are not employing child or slave labor. They have busted the Chinese subsidiaries many times for violations. Their contract has that provision spelled out in it and they have fined the Chinese Government some serious dollars.

IzmSchism

27th June 2002, 00:05

WorldCom?

Apache

27th June 2002, 00:08

WorldCom?
Thank God NOT! :)

It does have Com in the name though. :)

Capitalist Imperial

27th June 2002, 00:52

Quote: from Apache on 11:42 pm on June 26, 2002
American Kid:, don't worry about causing discord on this board because most of these kids can not agree on what "REAL" communism is about between themselves. They say that we have never had a "REAL" communistic government in the world despite the countless attempts and the approximately 85,000,000 dead that were created in the name of their ideology.
Also if you read their profiles, they are almost all from Western or West European countries that take care of their ass from cradle-to-grave, after they are done living off of what their mommies and daddies earned, and could not come up with anything more original than chanting some revolutionary slogan they read in a book because they think it sounds cool.
You will also notice that you have NO participants from commie countries like "CUBA", "North Korea", "Viet Nam", and of course "Communist China". If there are any from thee countries, I have yet to hear about them.
Now they will tell you that these are not "REAL" communist countries and that they are pursuing a higher ideal.
The only higher ideal that exist in the future of communism is in their own minds.
Communism is in the Cat Box of history and the box is about to be cleaned.
:)

This guy is great, pro-american comedy relief with some realism mixed in, perfect!

Mazdak

27th June 2002, 03:37

American Kid, you are simplylucky, and on top of that, i know ppl in communist cuba, and they have rather happy lives, they dont want to revolt and talk about how mucht they hate castro. He cant be too bad.

Apache

27th June 2002, 03:42

Quote: from Mazdak on 7:37 pm on June 26, 2002
American Kid, you are simplylucky, and on top of that, i know ppl in communist cuba, and they have rather happy lives, they dont want to revolt and talk about how mucht they hate castro. He cant be too bad.

How come we don't hear from them DIRECTLY on this BBS?
Because Castro is a tyrant and has impoverished his people.
He restricts their freedom so they would not have access to a place like this BBS.
He economically impoverishes them so even if they had the freedom they could not afford a computer to even access the net.

Some paradise!

pastradamus

27th June 2002, 04:19

HAHAHA! The speech for freedom is coming from an american! A country who see's it ok to enslave the rest of the world under its capitalistic grip and attacks the freedom of thought of different countries like cuba.

Apache

27th June 2002, 04:32

Quote: from pastradamus on 8:19 pm on June 26, 2002
HAHAHA! The speech for freedom is coming from an american! A country who see's it ok to enslave the rest of the world under its capitalistic grip and attacks the freedom of thought of different countries like cuba.

Do you know the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
ONE LESS drunken Irishman!

Oh, and capalitize your master's name when you type it.
It should read: America.

I don't blame you for being an idiot, you do live in Ireland. Were your relatives too dumb to escape during the potato famine?

peaccenicked

27th June 2002, 04:49

RACIST MAGGOT GO PLAY WITH YOUR BABY RATTLE.

Apache

27th June 2002, 04:58

Yeah pastradamus, go play with your baby rattle, you Racist Maggot!

peaccenicked: Thanks for the back-up. ;)

Xvall

27th June 2002, 05:11

Quote: from Apache on 3:42 am on June 27, 2002

Quote: from Mazdak on 7:37 pm on June 26, 2002
American Kid, you are simplylucky, and on top of that, i know ppl in communist cuba, and they have rather happy lives, they dont want to revolt and talk about how mucht they hate castro. He cant be too bad.

How come we don't hear from them DIRECTLY on this BBS?
Because Castro is a tyrant and has impoverished his people.
He restricts their freedom so they would not have access to a place like this BBS.
He economically impoverishes them so even if they had the freedom they could not afford a computer to even access the net.

Some paradise!

Mr. Castro is far too busy trying to figure out how to get rid of your damn embargo! You know, in some countries, basic needs come before the internet!

Apache

27th June 2002, 05:16

Mr. Castro is far too busy trying to figure out how to get rid of your damn embargo! You know, in some countries, basic needs come before the internet!

Instructions for Castro to get rid of embargo:

1. Load hand gun.
2. Put barrel of gun in mouth.
3. Pull trigger!
4. Watch from Hell as embargo is lifted before Fidel's body is cold.

Easy! :)

peaccenicked

27th June 2002, 05:17

YOU idiot Apache I was reffering to your anti Irish shit.

RedCeltic

27th June 2002, 05:21

Quote: from Apache on 10:32 pm on June 26, 2002

Quote: from pastradamus on 8:19 pm on June 26, 2002
HAHAHA! The speech for freedom is coming from an american! A country who see's it ok to enslave the rest of the world under its capitalistic grip and attacks the freedom of thought of different countries like cuba.

Do you know the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
ONE LESS drunken Irishman!

Oh, and capalitize your master's name when you type it.
It should read: America.

I don't blame you for being an idiot, you do live in Ireland. Were your relatives too dumb to escape during the potato famine?

God your a think one 'ain't ya... what do you know of us famine Irish anyway? My father's family fled to Glasgow and my mother's to New York. It had nothing to do with intelegence and everything to do with personal Circumstance!

Some landlords helped to send the Irish to America, some just made them homeless.

http://avery.med.virginia.edu/~eas5e/images/Homeless.gif

http://avery.med.virginia.edu/~eas5e/images/Eviction.gif

Who where the lucky ones? The ones that lost their ancestrial homeland forever? Or the ones that stayed only to watch loved ones starve to death?

http://avery.med.virginia.edu/~eas5e/images/Starvation.gif

(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:23 pm on June 26, 2002)

Apache

27th June 2002, 05:24

God your a think one 'ain't ya... what do you know of us famine Irish anyway?

Oh I don't know.
Maybe it was having BOTH sets of grandparents come from IRELAND.

(Edited by Apache at 9:25 pm on June 26, 2002)

RedCeltic

27th June 2002, 05:28

And what of the relitives of your grandparents who stayed? Are they idiots?

Apache

27th June 2002, 05:29

Quote: from RedCeltic on 9:28 pm on June 26, 2002
And what of the relitives of your grandparents who stayed? Are they idiots?

NO, they starved to death.
Thank you England!

RedCeltic

27th June 2002, 05:39

Quote: from Apache on 11:29 pm on June 26, 2002

Quote: from RedCeltic on 9:28 pm on June 26, 2002
And what of the relitives of your grandparents who stayed? Are they idiots?

NO, they starved to death.
Thank you England!

hmmmm... I should have realized you where Irish by that joke, I've only heard Irish Ameicans say it.

American Kid

27th June 2002, 05:47

Hey, guys.

Okay, again it's late and I'm tired but there's been so many interesting responses I feel I need to oblige.

Marxist Disciple:

Firstly, thanks for the nice words you had in regards to me personally. You're right, I have dove head-first into the hellmouth, and I must say I'm surprised (pleasantly) that mostly all the responses to my post have been pretty cool (even when we don't see eye to eye).

It seems like the running theme here hasn't been people's problems with communism, but, much more fervently, people's differences in their INTERPERTATION of communism. Which I suppose is just as, if not even more, dangerous. If you're talking a system of government which is going to function succesfully under the control of any given country's MILLIONS of citizens, it's paramount to have at least someone behind the wheel in control who knows what they're doing. This is one of communism's major paradoxes, I think. Because according to your idealogy, there isn't. And when there is, you have disaster, ie Stalin. But maybe I'm unenlightened here, explain if you can.

Mazdak (good name):

I am fully aware how lucky I am. Though maybe not as much as you think.....don't be so quick to judge.

Guerrilaradio:

Big ups. (Pick up the new "Taking Back Sunday" album. Great emo. Also, if you haven't heard them yet, pick up anything by "Mineral" or "Cap'n Jazz". Good stuff). (Though probably counterrevolutionary).

El Che:

Obviously we're not on the same page here. So then explain to me (in plain english, this isn't a thesis paper) what you DO believe in.

And, as a personal favor, analyze this: If the communists were ever to storm our shores and take over the US (God forbid), I want to know: would I be allowed to publish ANYTHING I wished- that an editor would deem worthy of being published? ANYTHING? Even if the goverment head-shrinkers found it to be, in their "eyes", subversive? You know, for the greater good of the State? Would I be allowed to make and show publicly ANY FILM I made here? Because I know for a fact that in China, North Korea, Cuba, ect., I wouldn't. And that's fucked up. On a sweat-shop-caliber-level. Using these specific examples, I'm serious, explain.

Finally, RGacky:

How am I a slave? Slaves are supposed to be miserable, aren't they? Hence the negative connotation.
Now, I'm not an ambient ray of pure sunshine (sort of a cynic, actually) but I, in know way, consider myself to be shackled by anyone. I wouldn't say fuck you to my boss-why? because he's a nice guy. Why should I? Do you know something I don't? oh wait, how could you? YOU'VE NEVER MET HIM. And if I wanted to find another job, I would. But I don't. Know why? Because I LIKE the one I have. Huh, damndest thing you ever heard a "slave" say, I bet.

And ANOTHER THING, if you're such a fucking expert on me and my life, why don't you explain to me why I keep getting these goddamn ear infections? You figured out I'm a slave, Sherlock, and, through what can be described as nothing short of absolute brilliance, came to the earth-shattering conclusion, that, I, do indeed, as a matter of fact, as a living, breathing, functioning human being, need to EAT (definetely on the cutting edge of modern comtemporary speculation there, Gack; courageous of you), now explain why my ears keep getting itchy and I wake up in the morning dizzy?

Because this sucks, and your clairavoyance makes you peerlessly suited to solve this case more than anyone on the planet.

-Sincerely AK

And lastly, it's one thing about communists, you sure do have a nasty habit of judging men by the size of their bank accounts, rather than the content of their......
well, you know.

good night

(Edited by American Kid at 5:51 am on June 27, 2002)

(Edited by American Kid at 5:54 am on June 27, 2002)

peaccenicked

27th June 2002, 06:04

America is not a target for foriegn communists, that was cold war nonsense. Communist want a democraric America where wealth is fairly distributed. The class differences in the USA are huge.
We dont believe in state own ownership of the means of communication but community ownership. This means that corporate voices are replaced with the breadth of the community. Any organisation religious, trade union political have equal rights to space and free distribution, with the right to refuse 'junk mail'. Even if it is the leading Party.

guerrillaradio

27th June 2002, 15:02

Quote: from Apache on 4:32 am on June 27, 2002
Do you know the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
ONE LESS drunken Irishman!

I don't blame you for being an idiot, you do live in Ireland. Were your relatives too dumb to escape during the potato famine?

Stupid fucking idiot. Can't reply with fact so you use stereotypical "jokes" instead and comments with racist connortations?? If you don't have anything worth saying, then don't say anything at all...

My Brother works for a large communications company that contract to factories in China.
They regularly make inspections to see that the Chinese are not employing child or slave labor. They have busted the Chinese subsidiaries many times for violations. Their contract has that provision spelled out in it and they have fined the Chinese Government some serious dollars.

Big fucking deal. So one corporation which has factories in one country has used fines. What about the hundreds of others of corporations from your lovely country then?? And how likely is it that these "provisions" you loosely speak of are on a humane level?? Maybe your brother's company demands that they should only work 17hrs a day or something...

AK - not being an expert on emo, I am unable to share with you. I'm more a metalhead. However, I have lots of friends into Jimmyeatworld, Rival Schools and the other big emo bands (this is the UK dude, it's yet to really take off here)...

marxistdisciple

27th June 2002, 18:20

This discussion has degraded a great deal...can't people just have factual debates instead of resorting to their own opionated, stupid, rhetoric?
Yes, sure some companies have fined contractors for violating certain rights. Nike did it when they came under great pressure. People wanted them to double the wages in their sweatshops. They gave a 25% rise to some of the workers. Bear in mind these people earnt about 30 cents an hour, and worked 14 hour days. So a double in pay, they'd still be getting paid 60 cents an hour! The rise in pay would have cost Nike $25 million to achieve, that's peanuts to a multinational like them. So as always, in an economy that values profit over people, they didn't do it. Many companies pay the sweatshop workers even less. The living wage in China would be less than a dollar an hour, somewhere between 80 and 90 cents. For a company that makes billions how can they even argue against paying livable wages? It's purely about money, that's the only issue. The reason they move to places like china is only to save money right? I mean they could easily regulate conditions in the US, isn't that why they move the companies, to benefit from lax labour laws/cheap wages??

Apache: People in here have been banned for racist comments. It's not funny, shut up. you are a living, talking, walking billboard for right wing capitalist virtues, and sometimes you are funny, when you come out with absurd comments, it is really amusing. Racism isn't, so shut up about the Irish, or any other group of people you want to generalise.

IzmSchism

27th June 2002, 20:25

let Apache poke fun, AS Long as it is mockery you are trying to achieve, and not pure hatred and ignorance, if so, let him dig his own grave and we will begin to see him for what he truly is.

American Kid

27th June 2002, 20:35

Yo, yo, yo.

Hey, I'm still here, and I'm waiting for my replies. Anxiously. It's like Christmas over here.

-AK

RGacky3

27th June 2002, 23:24

American Kid I respect your intellgence, your much smarter than most cappies, infact than many people on this site. When I say "slave" I don't mean shackles and chains, its slavery in a more subtle way, I know you like you boss and he's a nice guy, but most employees are to their employes tools for making money. If you decided to just leave your job, and find a better paying one, could you? Perhaps after time, but for the most part you can, you rely on your employer for your pay, your source of income relys on him, in this way you are "a slave". Please tell me if I missed out anything

Capitalist Imperial

27th June 2002, 23:29

Quote: from RGacky3 on 11:24 pm on June 27, 2002
American Kid I respect your intellgence, your much smarter than most cappies, infact than many people on this site. When I say "slave" I don't mean shackles and chains, its slavery in a more subtle way, I know you like you boss and he's a nice guy, but most employees are to their employes tools for making money. If you decided to just leave your job, and find a better paying one, could you? Perhaps after time, but for the most part you can, you rely on your employer for your pay, your source of income relys on him, in this way you are "a slave". Please tell me if I missed out anything

Changing jobs in the US is quite easy ith a little effort

RGacky3

27th June 2002, 23:31

You say rich people deserve their money. I lived in mexico for 2 years, most of my friends their are poor proletariats. Tell a person that works on some one elses farm 10 hours a day, every day, lives in a 2 room concrete lump of shit, has a family of 4, and bearly feeds them, tell him that he deserves this. Now tell a person who owns a company, orders people around, affords this company becouse his parents were rich, retires at 45, spends most his time playing gilf, tell him he deserves to be rich. Its hard to tell either of them, becouse they don't deserve it, capitalism is unjust my friend.

Capitalist Imperial

28th June 2002, 00:04

Life is sometimes unjust, and so is communism. But in capitalism, you get controlof your own destiny, and an opportunity to seekjustice for yourself. Communism offers no such outlet.

RGacky3

28th June 2002, 00:09

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:04 am on June 28, 2002
Life is sometimes unjust, and so is communism. But in capitalism, you get controlof your own destiny, and an opportunity to seekjustice for yourself. Communism offers no such outlet.

CI, I hate you, why don't you die, go hang yourself,

CONTROL YOUR DESTINY, I think not, go tell that to a campesino (mexican farm worker), or a sweatshop worker, or any other proletariat, many people cannot afford collage and cannot get scholarships becouse they have to work while going to school. Bougouise pays their kids into collage, and gets them a good job. It is an inevitable fact, In capitalism the poor get poorer, the rich get richer, and the poor can't do anything about that.

RGacky3

28th June 2002, 00:09

man in the red suit

28th June 2002, 00:17

AK, you have to keep in mind that just because some of the burgeoisie are good people, that doesn't mean that they should be entitled to make million dollar bonuses for practically doing nothing while the proletariot works only for enough money to pay bills and put food on the table. I like your speach however I don't agree with you.
You must understand that Marx's work was not to give the proletariots a "shoulder to cry on." Marxism was a revolutionary action. You must keep in mind that during the time of Marx, the proletariot was much worse off than you are now. Since the evolution of the middle class, the exploited have given up anydesire to fight their opressors. Capitalism is more oppressive than it appears. The middle class just chose to except it while the communists fight. Lower middle class is bad but peverty is worse. Many are in poverty and have lost their jobs as a result of capitalism. The objective of communism is simply to abolish modern class society. Through this, the proletariot has more of a chance to succeed. Under capitalism, the burgeoisie uses the rock, holding down the opressed, to further himself up the corporate ladder. the proletariot like yourself is exploited because it furthers the position of the exploiting class. It appears to me that you have "accepted your fate" while we choose to fight against it. I guess, for somebody like yourself, you could argue that we are all unhappy and spend our time *****ing about things that are not underour control. I see it as a quest. I believe that socialism is the answer to all our problems. i discovered this only through seeing other countries. I don't know if you have been to another country besides Amerika in your life, but it can make one change their mind. Before I had visited another country, I was a very right wing capitalist. Then I visited Mexico. mexico was a perfect example for how capitalism can tear a man apart while only furthering another's success. i saw people living in boxes while others walk around in suits. Then I went to Sweded and Norway. i saw how harmonious and happily the people there lived. Everyone enjoys the same technology that we have here, regardless of what you've heard. Everyone is relaxed and there are no homeless people.
There are no worries, everyone who can't find a job is given one by the government. the government even supports for you and will give you a house to live in. There is virtually no crime. Everyone leaves their doors unlocked because nobody is afraid of getting robbed by an underpriveldged person who must steal to support himself. Everyone has great living standards and are able to but nescesities and luxuries. In America, some have it all, some have a little bit and some have none. This is why I am not particularly fond of this country. I believe all hard workers are entitled to something. Not just those who get to sit in big lounge chairs and smoke cigars. I am a firm in "equal liability of all to labour" You capitlaists, have always used the "doctors vs farmers" argument but that doesn't mean a thing to me. I know that is not what you are arguing, but I wanted to bring it to your attention. Anyone who works, has a unique and important role in contributing to society. Nobody nesescarily contributes a great deal more than any other. It is in my opinion that we are all deserving, and not just the elite few.

i would also like to adress you concern on freedom of speech. I agree with peaccenicked, that you are confusing Marxism with Stalinism. Communism exists in ohter places besides soviet Russia. You cannot simply look at every single mistake that Russia has made and blame it on communism. You must look at the other countries as well and you must recognize the benefits and how they outnumber the disadvatages of socialism.

Those are my thoughts. Your turn.

Capitalist Imperial

28th June 2002, 00:23

Poor immigrants rise to success and greatness every day in the USA, so it does happen, sir. And if they did not work at sweatshops or farms, what is the alternative? If anything, sweatshops are the best thing going, or they would do something else, right?

I love you too, gacky

RGacky3

28th June 2002, 00:23

I AM norwegen, I go there almost every winter or summer, I know what MITRS is talking about, its true, its almost a utopia there.

Capitalist Imperial

28th June 2002, 00:29

Norway? Almost Utopian? C'mon,man, who are you kidding?

pastradamus

28th June 2002, 03:57

Quote: from Apache on 4:32 am on June 27, 20

Do you know the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
ONE LESS drunken Irishman!

Oh, and capalitize your master's name when you type it.
It should read: America.

I don't blame you for being an idiot, you do live in Ireland. Were your relatives too dumb to escape during the potato famine?

So Im an idiot an I? If the mesure of an idiot is ur racist views,than I dont know what that makes u! u cant even reply to my point,cuz u know u cant beat an Irishman when it comes to politics.

And im gonna push for a ban if ur gonna keep up this racist conduct.Use ur head man! and stop using insults!

Contrarian

28th June 2002, 04:20

American Kid: You live the easy life. Try existing for more than a year in an African or Vietnamese hovel working 18 hours a day for $1 a shift. No one cares about your sad story, you're no charity case. You don't know the meaning of poor.

Pepo

28th June 2002, 10:10

Ok, you American Kid,

I've read some parts of what you have written here and I must leave here some points. It seems to me too egocentric from you that you come with your personal problems. For what have you started this thema?
Personally I'm interested to denounce and discuss themas about mainly the injustice and the lie from our Capitalist World.

You talk about freedom and I ask you where is the freedom? Do you forget that balck people in the States are still descriminated, do you forget that Communist people in the States are still not tolerated? Have you an ideia from how much information was forbiden to come out in the States?
In Europe happen that TV reports were shown and in the U.S they were forbiden.

So, what are you talking about?
Don't look to the mistakes of Socialism in USSR but look to the dream of achieving the New Man thought by Che. Maybe you will say that is Utopic but the truth is that is possible to achive it.
If you want a fare society, a real democratic system where all the people will have their voice and the same conditions, them you must be Socialist. There is no other way.
Ok, the way Socialim is applied was not always in the best way, but Socialism is a dream wich takes generations of our society until it will be built, it's a process, a learning process.

Go to the mountain, take some nice books and read a little, maybe you will learn some new interesting things, then maybe you can come here and discuss more interesting themas, because I believe that nobody here is interested in personal sad stories.

I almost got tears in my eyes.

American Kid

28th June 2002, 14:05

Um.............yeah..........

Personal problems.......Do me a personal favor, Pele and/or Contrarian, when pointing out specific quotations from my posts, highlight them. Because I would love to defend myself (confident I could), but you see I'm left with vaguely referential paraphrasing on your part, and basically I've no idea what the fuck either of you is talking about.

Personal problems......did I get drunk and log in, ranting about my ex girlfriend and the new guy in her life who's banging her? Did I log in drunk and rant about the woefully pathetic balance on my last bank stub? Seriously, drop me a freekin' bone here, because Peepoo, I don't have a clue what your's or your buddie Contrarian's exact beef with me is. And the sad fact of the matter here is, if you guys do not wish to express yourselves, no one else is gonna do it for you. And the rest of us will never be able to figure out what great thoughts are bouncing around inside those great minds of yours. Except yourselves, my friends.......... And to me, that's the definition of tragic. You gotta open up. Don't hog all that innovation to yourselves.

That wouldn't be very socialist of you either, comrades.

You talk about freedom and I ask you STILL, my questions toward censorship in a socialist or communist society; and STILL NO ONE has replied. I DO talk of freedom. You whine about racism against the balck (sic) people and intolerance toward communists. I wasn't aware racism was a national problem coming to it's end at the borders of the United States. I wonder then what this static is that's been going on in other countries like Germany and South Africa in the past. And let's not just stop there. How about modern contemporary racism in general, that exists in the whole world: Ireland, England, Canada, Panama, France, Norway.....yes my young padawan, people contain within themselves the capacity to discriminate and prejudge across the globe. After all, we're all equal, aren't we? I talk of freedom, ie if I disagree with the work orders assigned me by my government, I'm not tossed in a pit for being reactionary. If I want to read a book by JD Salinger, I'm not thrown in a pit for being reactionary. If I want to assemble a protest to speak out against something the "powers that be" did, I won't be thrown in a pit for being reactionary. And LISTEN, I'm sick of all this Russia shit. You think China is some fuckin' paradise? If I went to China tomorrow and handed out pamphlets, they'd throw me in a pit. Or run me over in a tank.

Defend that. Or how about that beautiful oasis North Korea? I mean, it's probably a nice place to go and enjoy a meal, but- oh, wait, there isn't any food. The govenrment's too busy spending money on bombs. ATOMIC bombs. Start answering my fucking questions before you go rolling your eyes and condescend me guys, go back and at least have the decency to read ENTIRELY the posts that your expert minds are able to so effortlessly dissect with "surgical precision".

And what the FUCK is a "thema"?

And decipher this sentence for me, Pepsi, because I have a friend who speaks German, a friend who speaks Swahili, and a friend who's dyslexic, and it doesn't make sense to any of us:

"In Europe happen that TV reports were shown and in the US they were forbidden....."

Right.........Now, are you talking media censorship? Fine. Then give examples...........:)

Well maybe we are on the same page asthecitally here, we just have a language (or a SEMANTIC, if you will) conflict. So I'll end with this:

Confused are you when do think I don't agree but many happen we will continue later. Not over will happen.

Respond to my comments but don't fucking patronize me.

-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 2:15 pm on June 28, 2002)

IzmSchism

28th June 2002, 20:21

Quote: from American Kid on 2:05 pm on June 28, 2002
You talk about freedom and I ask you STILL, my questions toward censorship in a socialist or communist society; and STILL NO ONE has replied. I DO talk of freedom. You whine about racism against the balck (sic) people and intolerance toward communists. I wasn't aware racism was a national problem coming to it's end at the borders of the United States. I wonder then what this static is that's been going on in other countries like Germany and South Africa in the past. And let's not just stop there. How about modern contemporary racism in general, that exists in the whole world: Ireland, England, Canada, Panama, France, Norway.....yes my young padawan, people contain within themselves the capacity to discriminate and prejudge across the globe. After all, we're all equal, aren't we? I talk of freedom, ie if I disagree with the work orders assigned me by my government, I'm not tossed in a pit for being reactionary. If I want to read a book by JD Salinger, I'm not thrown in a pit for being reactionary. If I want to assemble a protest to speak out against something the "powers that be" did, I won't be thrown in a pit for being reactionary. And LISTEN, I'm sick of all this Russia shit. You think China is some fuckin' paradise? If I went to China tomorrow and handed out pamphlets, they'd throw me in a pit. Or run me over in a tank.

(Edited by American Kid at 2:15 pm on June 28, 2002)

freedom of speech is good, I agree with you.

American Kid

28th June 2002, 21:42

Then we agree to agree.

Izm Schizm's okay with me. Seriously. Some of you other guys though..........

-AK

American Kid

28th June 2002, 21:43

Also, to my bud in the red suit......coming soon:

My REPLY........Dun-Dun-Dunnn!!!!!!!!!!

-AK

marxistdisciple

28th June 2002, 22:10

hey AK, some people are trying to post sensible replies, and some people are arguing over silly things :)

I agree that under whatever political system there should be no censorship of free speech. People should be able to say whatever they feel, and I don't like marx's/lenin's take on keeping out the bougeouis. they would not by definition exist anymore, and the ricest would move to countries where capitalism was still in power. I think people need to understand that communism could only work as an international ideal (or at least most of the western nations), otherwise the differeing socio-economic principals would create the kind of divides we already have today. Some countries can work their way out of poverty with capitalism, south korea is a good example. Unfortunately, a lot of countries are forced into the dark ages by being the lapdogs of western industry. In economic principal, there is no reason to help third world poverty, it helps us get cheap labour for industry. Unfortuately, with incresingly economically focussed governments, they aren't exactly pushing the humanity aspect that most people think is important. Capitalism can work, but only at the expense of humanity. That is of course the choice we all have to make. As marx stated, all political systems will end at some point....and so will capitalism. A market economy cannot go on forever, it is too wasteful....it relies on ever cheaper overproduction, and ever expanding companies. The stock market is an entirely irational assessment of company growth.

If you were to move to a sort of state between socialism and capitalism...say parecon, or a similar system, that might ease the transition to a more social political structure. this kind of change would be possible in modern years, as the duistrust in corporations grows. It hasn't really been this intense since the 30s, and I think it took a world war for the US to get out of that depression.

So either we make necessary changes to the current system, and remove the profit driven stock market that either damages the economy or makes it grow unrealistically - or we end up in the trap of boom and bust which makes capitalism fail. There must always be a depression - that is the problem. You can only grow with new markets - what if there is no new markets to sell to?

peaccenicked

29th June 2002, 03:40

When comes to freedom of speech. I would not mind at all corporate voices being aired as long as the
was no corporate power.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:45 am on June 29, 2002)

abstractmentality

29th June 2002, 04:08

AK,
in response to the freedom of speech issue, i agree with you completely, freedom of speech is a necessity. However, as pointed out by chomsky, many things are not censored in nationalized newspapers by "the powers," rather things are censored by the head of the national newspapers. things are known by most of these columnist, but are not allowed to be written and published, especially during times as now. the publication of many dissenting facts and opinions are not published simply because their is a general preconception what is to be published in, say, the new york times, and what is not to be published. in chomsky's eyes, that is worse than a sponsered censorship, since its not enforced, but is rather understood.
or something to that effect, im in a rush right now.

RGacky3

29th June 2002, 04:21

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:29 am on June 28, 2002
Norway? Almost Utopian? C'mon,man, who are you kidding?

C'mon, man how many times have you been there? How many relatives to you have there

CI, I hate you, why don't you die, go hang yourself,

peaccenicked

29th June 2002, 04:43

'Perfect' Norway http://manila.djh.dk/norway02

American Kid

29th June 2002, 07:01

Um, Gacky.

You're a nice guy. Even though we are undoubtedly on polar opposites of the political spectrum, you're still definetely okay in my book. I base this on the quality of the arguments in your posts in response to mine, and the way in which they are written (not to get too "professory" on you). And thank you for the nice things you said about me earlier.

If you weren't being sarcastic...................:)

But seriously, you seem cool enough. I will admit I know next to nothing about Norway. Although I've heard only the best things and would like to visit someday. My maternal grandmother's mother was from Finland so I've always had a sort of interest in Scandanavia, but anyway-------------It seems like a nice place. On an MTV show called "Road Rules" a few years back there was a castmember from there and he seemed to be the nicest fucking guy ever, so.....

BUT, anyway, the point is, you're a good guy. Um, how to say this.........please..... stop attempting to dupe the imperialist cappie into suicide?, it just.........isn't becoming of someone.........who's.......I don't know. It's sort of unpleasant and just brings everyone down:)

So, that's it. I'm going to bed.

Good night and God bless everyone.

-AK

RGacky3

2nd July 2002, 01:02

We'll AK, I think your a cool guy as well. only CI, well he's way too cappie, way too american, way too imperialistic. Way to influenced by U$ propeganda, and his posts piss me off. any thanks peaccenicked for the link, I liked it a lot. And no AK, I was'nt being sarcastic, you are very intelligent.

CI-go take a suicide pill

man in the red suit

2nd July 2002, 01:41

Ak, you have to understand that you are talking to Nomar. He does this every day in school. He told our math teacher to hang herself and he said he told some preps that he would bury their family in a steel box and set them on fire. nomar has been known to get violent at times. It is just his way of showing his love.

and I still look forward to hearing your response. I want
to whine and ***** some more at you. Thanx a lot. I'll be waiting to hear counter-revolutionary thoughts. toodles.

-Iraqy

American Kid

2nd July 2002, 02:48

Nomar..................Nomar Garciaparra? You see I'm from the "Boston-area" shall we say, and I'm a Red Sox fan. Nomar Garciaparra is the shortstop for the Sox. And he's an All Star. No bullshit, he was just selected for the team. He may not be Renaldo, but he's definetely one of MY sports heroes. BTW, if there's any degenerate Yankees fans inflitrating this board, I'll have you know I'll meet you with chain on Nargle Brittlar anytime.

So........Nomar doesn't sound Norwegian........Nomar Garciaparra's name is his father's backwards: "Ramon".

"Hey, Kid, get to the fucking point!"

Okay, okay. So Man...................Man oh Man..........The big, bad Red Man..........................in a suit..............

"One baby to another says, 'I'm ready to Drain You.....'"

Well, we agree. Sort of. Yes, some rich people are okay. However, let's say I "live by the water", I don't want to give away my home because I'm afraid some psycho lunatic revolutionary like Pepo will come and kill me in my sleep, but let's say I "live by the water". There's a particular bar down the street. It's called "Baxter's". Well me and my friends call it "Bastards." Because it's literally ON THE OCEAN and you can sail your boat up to THE DOCK outside and enter that way. It's sort of disgusting. If you go there, you're rich. In fact you're so wealthy it's obscene. I've been there a few times and found it easy to blend in. Obivoulsy from the outside you can't tell someone's poor. Unless they're wearing a white wife-beater with ketchup stains and holes or something. But I remember standing around, mingling with the boursgoise motherfuckers, and thinking, "You motherfuckers........I grew up on subsidized housing........what makes you think you're so special........." I thnk I even walked home that night. I did. I got fuckin' bored and left.

However I'm sure on the walk home, I passed by some homeless people. And some of them I know. Well not all of them personally. But I know some of them through association. I grew up poor, not Bolivian poor or Mexican poor, but I've had my lights turned off before, a lot, and it's scary as hell, but anyway so you get to know people on skid row that way too. And I know, for a fact, this isn't speculation, I'm not going to get into it, because it'll take a novel, but THEY HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS. Some mental, which is unfortunate. Some with substances, not as unfortunate. These people are sleazy. I KNOW SOME OF THEM PERSONALLY. TRUST ME. They're not good people. They will take advantage of you. It's happened to me. They care only about themselves and feeding their addiction. Granted, they are "sick". I'm not a psychologist, but I've seen it, so.....I know most of the people here politically want to believe that everyone is equal and deserves equal treatment; but they don't. You reap what you sow. You make your bed. You lie in it. When you spend the rent and light bill money on drugs and alchohol, you don't have one at all. It's called responsiblilty and being an adult. With all the welfare programs in this country, and other organizations, you have to be a real deadbeat to end up without a fucking roof on your head. You don't need to an Einstien. Or an Engels, I suppose........

In America at least, for people with drug issues, there are COUNTLESS programs to help people. And the fact is most of these people have hopped from one to other COUNTLESS times. It's sad. And it doesn't feel good to walk by someone in that state, but I do what I can in this world, and you just cannot help someone if they won't help themselves. Just look at your friend Cobain.

I don't mean to criticize Marx as much as I probably do. I'll admit, the first time I GRASPED the concept of dialectism, it made my fucking head explode. I think he was a genius. But his ideas are dangerous, and to try to take away people's religion, or from the rich what they feel they deserve, and you have trouble. Revolution, I think, in America, isn't an option.

And some rich do deserve what they have. Most do.

Except those fucking trust fund bastards. But I believe even they are just a fact of life. I take comfort in the fact that kids who are born with everything in the world handed to them, not having to work a day in their lives, have been some of the most empty, spiritually and emotionally vacant people I've met. They're aimless, passionless people. Wealth isn't the blessing you'd imagine I suppose. And I don't admire or look up to them at all.

And yes, I have "accepted my fate" and I think a doctor who goes to school for 12 years and whose job it is to SAVE LIVES, should get more than a farmer who sits on a tractor. Ouch............I know :)

I can't help it. It's how I was raised. I'm an American. I pay taxes. My grandfather fought in the war. I honestly love my country, despite how fucked up it is. And it is, I know. But you love it anyway. Like family. I'll equate my situation to Gen. Lee during the Civil War (a man who's greatness just barely supercedes mine) (right.......). He wasn't for slavery, but he was from Virginia. He didn't believe in his home state's politics wholeheartedly, downright disagreed with some. But it was his home and he was a soldier. So he fought for it. To this day, no one remember Lee as, "that fucking cocksucker with his wip and chains.......that southern fried fruck, I hate Lee, he sucks....". He's actually kind of revered still. Why? Because he carried himself............with integrity.

Okay so there it is. WUT?

til next time guys,

THE KID--------------------------------

(Edited by American Kid at 2:53 am on July 2, 2002)

(Edited by American Kid at 2:55 am on July 2, 2002)