Ramón Mercader - Hero of the Soviet Union?

[Unicorn]

Mercader was the person who murdered Trotsky and spent 20 years in a Mexican prison. My understanding is that the Soviets contended that he was a disgruntled follower of Trotsky.

If this was the case why he was awarded the prestigious "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal after he traveled to the USSR in 1960? Or was he an assassin sent by Stalin? In that case it shouldn't be appropriate to give him the title either.

A bio, a pic and his grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8249680

[Comrade Rage]

Mercader was the person who murdered Trotsky and spent 20 years in a Mexican prison. My understanding is that the Soviets contended that he was a disgruntled follower of Trotsky.

If this was the case why he was awarded the prestigious "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal after he traveled to the USSR in 1960?Because...the brave heroic duty he paid to humanity on August 21, 1940. When he swung that pick, he swung it for all of humanity.

Anyone who does such a beautiful thing must be rewarded. Regardless of his past crimes.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Because he was, in fact, an NKVD agent. :(

[Unicorn, I know you're a soft-Stalinist, but at least you're learning the bitter truths regarding the already-revisionist nature of the post-Lenin regime and the hollow criticisms of Trotsky and his followers.]

[Comrade Rage]

^^^ Because he was, in fact, an NKVD agent. :(Do you have conspiracy theories for everything? There has never been any proof that he was part of the N K V D.


[Unicorn, I know you're a soft-Stalinist, but at least you're learning the bitter truths regarding the already-revisionist nature of the post-Lenin regime and the hollow criticisms of Trotsky and his followers.]
'Soft-Stalinist'?:rolleyes:

[Intelligitimate]

Sudoplatov said he personally oversaw the operation to get rid of Trotsky in his memoirs. The idea he was a disgruntled Trotskyist doesn't really have much evidence to it, but other people disbelieve some of the other stuff Sudoplatov claims, such as his statements accusing Fermi, Bohr, and Oppenheimer of espionage.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Do you have conspiracy theories for everything? There has never been any proof that he was part of the N K V D.

'Soft-Stalinist'?:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader

His mother was awarded the Order of Lenin shortly afterwards by the grossly revisionist tyrant himself as part of his inter-revisionist blood feud.

I'm still waiting for your "seering critique." ;)



And yes, Unicorn is still a "soft-Stalinist." All that stuff about the USSR having achieved "socialism" - even of the technocratic type like what Bordiga had in mind - is bullocks.

[Comrade Rage]

Sudoplatov said he personally oversaw the operation to get rid of Trotsky in his memoirs. The idea he was a disgruntled Trotskyist doesn't really have much evidence to it, but other people disbelieve some of the other stuff Sudoplatov claims.I do as well.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader)
Whoa... if Wikipedia says it, it HAS to be true.:D
You've really got me by the balls.:laugh:

His mother was awarded the Order of Lenin shortly afterwards by the grossly revisionist tyrant himself as part of his inter-revisionist blood feud.Everyone related to that shining example of humanity deserved the Order of Lenin.:)


I'm still waiting for your "seering critique." ;)Be patient.

[Comrade Rage]

And yes, Unicorn is still a "soft-Stalinist." All that stuff about the USSR having achieved "socialism" - even of the technocratic type like what Bordiga had in mind - is bullocks.Actually that 'bullocks' is accepted by 85% of the Communist movement. (Hoxhaists, Maoists, and ":ohmy:EVIL STALINISTS:ohmy:")

NO SOUP FOR YOU!http://www.revleft.com/vb/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Intelligitimate]

Simply disbelieving Sudoplatov isn't enough. If you could actually give some reasons why Sudoplatov, who was head of the NKVD's foreign department, would make it up, that would be interesting. Other scholars have done so for his claims about Soviet espionage, and I guess in a way this also hurts his credibility on other things he says, but I personally don't see any reason to disbelieve him. He also provides valuable testimony regarding Trotskyist collaboration with the Nazis, which is independently confirmed by the Nazis.

[Unicorn]

And yes, Unicorn is still a "soft-Stalinist." All that stuff about the USSR having achieved "socialism" - even of the technocratic type like what Bordiga had in mind - is bullocks.
Well, basically I see the Stalinist period as a sad period in the history of the USSR when the construction of socialism was interrupted by Stalin's cult of personality. The USSR did not achieve socialism under Lenin (when the Soviet people was still building socialism) or Stalin (when progress was nearly halted).

The general consensus among Soviet Marxist-Leninists in the 1970s was that the USSR had achieved "developed socialism" or "mature socialism". The USSR had then the best living standard, public services and social security in the history of mankind. I blame mostly Gorbachev as an individual for the eventual collapse of the system.

[Red October]

Ramon Mercader was also the first person to post trot jokes in chit-chat.

What good did it do to kill Trotsky anyway?

[Redmau5]

He must have been a fucking shit assassin. After he hit Trotsky on the head, Trotsky still managed to get up and wrestle Mercader to the ground.


Actually that 'bullocks' is accepted by 85% of the Communist movement.

Can I see your source for this assertion?

[Intelligitimate]

Uh, the usual account is that Trotsky let out a loud scream and his guards rushed to his aid. This and the wiki article is the first I've read of Trotsky wrestling with Mercader.

[Axel1917]

Mercader was the person who murdered Trotsky and spent 20 years in a Mexican prison. My understanding is that the Soviets contended that he was a disgruntled follower of Trotsky.

If this was the case why he was awarded the prestigious "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal after he traveled to the USSR in 1960? Or was he an assassin sent by Stalin? In that case it shouldn't be appropriate to give him the title either.

A bio, a pic and his grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8249680

Mercader was obviously an assassin sent by Stalin to silence the best defender of the October Revolution. The USSR could have claimed all kinds of things, but then again, such sources are some of the least reliable out there.

People can be killed, but ideas cannot. With the bankruptcy of Stalinism and the sell outs of the Stalinist leaders to capitalism revealed by history, the "theory" of socialism in one country has been exposed once and for all as unscientific and anti-Marxist. The continuing conditions in the Third World and the necessity of internationalism clearly vindicate the theory of permanent revolution.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ No - they vindicate the theory of bourgeois-free revolutionary democracy. However, there is a place for "permanent revolution," and that is discussed in the Theory thread "Trots and others..."

[Wanted Man]

Can I see your source for this assertion?
There is no source, but it's not a very crazy idea. It's only crazy if you count every organization claiming to be "communist" equally, or if you limit yourself to the Anglosphere. But if you consider the mass supported communist parties in southern Europe, Russia and the former eastern bloc, it's quite easy to get a majority. Almost all of those parties believe that the USSR was socialist, and enjoy the support of millions of people. 10-15 European communist parties carry a lot more weight than hundreds of European and American trotskyist, maoist and hoxhaist groups.

Of course, some nuance is needed. These parties have mass working class support, it's not as if every one of them will have that opinion of the USSR. It's just the party line to defend the best traditions of the communist movement. They concern themselves with the labour movement, not with having endless historical debates. Real communist parties are not historical reenactment clubs or LARP groups with little congresses, purges and power struggles.

http://www.pcp.pt/english/photos/foto6.jpg
Pictured above: a communist party.

http://www.proline.nl/expiatio/gevecht.jpg
Pictured above: not a communist party.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

:D

[Awful Reality]

'Soft-Stalinist'?:rolleyes:

That is, a Stalinist with Erectile Dysfunction. Sort of like Hoxha:laugh:

[Herman]

There is no source, but it's not a very crazy idea. It's only crazy if you count every organization claiming to be "communist" equally, or if you limit yourself to the Anglosphere. But if you consider the mass supported communist parties in southern Europe, Russia and the former eastern bloc, it's quite easy to get a majority. Almost all of those parties believe that the USSR was socialist, and enjoy the support of millions of people. 10-15 European communist parties carry a lot more weight than hundreds of European and American trotskyist, maoist and hoxhaist groups.

Of course, some nuance is needed. These parties have mass working class support, it's not as if every one of them will have that opinion of the USSR. It's just the party line to defend the best traditions of the communist movement. They concern themselves with the labour movement, not with having endless historical debates. Real communist parties are not historical reenactment clubs or LARP groups with little congresses, purges and power struggles.

http://www.pcp.pt/english/photos/foto6.jpg
Pictured above: a communist party.

http://www.proline.nl/expiatio/gevecht.jpg
Pictured above: not a communist party.

The last picture, I believe, is a LARP session. That means Live Action Role-Playing.

[Red October]

http://www.proline.nl/expiatio/gevecht.jpg
Pictured above: not a communist party.

How did you get pics of the RCP's last congress?:D

[BOZG]

Because...the brave heroic duty he paid to humanity on August 21, 1940. When he swung that pick, he swung it for all of humanity.

Anyone who does such a beautiful thing must be rewarded. Regardless of his past crimes.

But the favourite arguments of Stalinists against Trotsky is that he, along with his followers and their organisations were entirely irrelevant and would never play a significant role on the left. If that's true, than how exactly was it a heroic duty paid to humanity?

[luxemburg89]

Whether he was a hero for the Soviet Union or not is irrelevant. In my highly insignificant, but egotistical and self-inflated, opinion anyone who is a hero of the Soviet Union is by no means necessarily a hero of the left. Mercader was a ****, I'm no Trotskyist but I recognise what good the man did (and the obvious bad), and I believe his murder was an attack on Socialism in general. Furthermore anyone who kills anyone in cold blood is terrible, let alone brutally with an ice-pick. It is his brutality that sets him apart from other assassins. Mercader is no hero and deserved everything he got, apart from the Hero award obviously.