Have there been any Communist Governments that have NOT kill

[Apache]

Have there been any Communist Governments that have NOT killed their own people?
I was just wondering. Out of all of the efforts to create a workers paradise, why do communist governments (or governments that call themselves communist) always seen to revert to wholesale oppression?

If communism is such a great idea, why do you have to oppress people to get them to conform?

(Edited by Apache at 6:00 pm on June 20, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Ha! because peopel are generaly ignorant/intolerant sheep who dont like change. There is always some form of counterrevolution. And Whats wrong with killing Drug dealers, mafia, and murderers?

[Vide]

Originally posted by Apache:

"Have there been any Communist Governments..."

Nope.

[Apache]

And Whats wrong with killing Drug dealers, mafia, and murderers?

That sounds like a good idea to me. But I was referring to the average run-of-the-mil political dissent.

[Vide]

And Whats wrong with killing Drug dealers, mafia, and murderers?

Then you'd be a murderer and would be forced to kill yourself according to your own stupid policy.

[Apache]

Quote: from Vide on 6:27 pm on June 20, 2002
And Whats wrong with killing Drug dealers, mafia, and murderers?

Then you'd be a murderer and would be forced to kill yourself according to your own stupid policy.

Is that the best YOU can do?
You pathetic weasel!

[Guest]

Have their been any capitalist governments that have not killed their own people?

Very few communist countries had "mass killings" I am sure all killed criminals through the death penalty, etc.

What is the point of this thread apache?

[Vide]

Is that the best YOU can do?
You pathetic weasel!


Eh?

[Vide]

Have their been any capitalist governments that have not killed their own people?

Very few communist countries had "mass killings" I am sure all killed criminals through the death penalty, etc.

What is the point of this thread apache?


See:
Russian and Soviet gulags, Pol Pot and the Cambodian Genocide, Stalin and the Ukrainian Genocide, Mao and the Great Leap Forward, etc.

[Apache]

OK Vide, I will pose the question another way.
Have there been any communist governments that have not oppressed their own people?

BTW: You also forgot to include: North Korea, Viet Nam, Cuba, Angola, Mozambambique...

[Vide]

OK Apache, I will pose the question another way.
Have there been any communist governments?

or better yet:

Have there been any governments that have not oppressed their own people?

Enjoy.

[Apache]

I guess it depends on what you want to call oppression.
Would you call Sweden or Canada oppressive governments?
All governments prosecute criminals, is that oppression?

[Vide]

I'm honestly not sure about Sweden, don't know much about it.

As for Canada, Think back to World War II. Does the internment of all Japanese citizens and the splitting up of their families by the government sound like fair and equitable treatment? If I were a Japanese-Canadian citizen in the 40's, i'd certainly feel oppressed.

[Apache]

Perhaps I'm ill-informed, but I was unaware that Canada did that.
In any event that was 60 years ago.

[Vide]

In any event it happened, regardless of the poor nature of your education. Well, there goes that argument. Another one bites the dust.

[Apache]

Quote: from Vide on 7:35 pm on June 20, 2002
In any event it happened, regardless of the poor nature of your education. Well, there goes that argument. Another one bites the dust.

Don't flatter yourself by overstating your case. From what I can gather, this only occurred in BC, and was still infinitely more humane to what the Japanese meted out to civilian populations.
Once again are saying that ALL governments are oppressive?
I have a feeling, except for some narrow areas of political thought, my education is superior to yours.

[Vide]

Ahh Infinitely more humane than someone's else's oppression? I suppose it's justified then, in your mind.

I am saying that all governments have historically been oppressive.

[Kez]

i dont india has been oppresive

Basically all capitalist govt are oppresive in that they exploit the workers of all they have in their favour. IT is most clear to see so.
However, in terms of deaths, the US govt has killed millions of other peoples citizens.
Why would US govt kill its workers when it can work them to death while making a profit

[Hayduke]

Quote: from Apache on 6:58 am on June 21, 2002
Have there been any Communist Governments that have NOT killed their own people?
I was just wondering. Out of all of the efforts to create a workers paradise, why do communist governments (or governments that call themselves communist) always seen to revert to wholesale oppression?

If communism is such a great idea, why do you have to oppress people to get them to conform?

(Edited by Apache at 6:00 pm on June 20, 2002)


Apache,

Let me tell you how I see the communist countrys you refer to.
Countries like Vietnam, Korea were all started by groups of people to gain alot of wealth at the top. They were called communist, but they werent. You really think that these countries represent communism. Then I think you should start reading Marx and get a better idea of this.

The only country that in my view has come close to good communism is Cuba. The problem is the embargo.
You dont give communism a change to develop, a change to be succesfull.

About the killings, do I have to tell you about all the towns that our big hero Bush has destroyed with his hunt for terrorist ?
First destroy a whole village and then drop some food packs.
The people lost their home but at least they had butter.

Look at your own system first before you start fighting against ours.

Blind fool.

[PunkRawker677]

Great post DDAY!! You summed up most of what i wanted to say, but i got some other things i would like to say.

"From what I can gather, this only occurred in BC, and was still infinitely more humane to what the Japanese meted out to civilian populations. "

I think two atomic bombs on two cities out weighs any measure of cruelty commited by the Japanese to Americans..

You also refered to Cuba as a site of Mass Murders.. There was no mass murders in Cuba with Communist Castro, there sure as hell were during Capitalist batista's reign.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 5:06 pm on June 21, 2002
i dont india has been oppresive

Basically all capitalist govt are oppresive in that they exploit the workers of all they have in their favour. IT is most clear to see so.
However, in terms of deaths, the US govt has killed millions of other peoples citizens.
Why would US govt kill its workers when it can work them to death while making a profit


??? The US has the longest life expectancy on earth, and we are not "worked to death". We have a very good standard of living and a good amount of leisure time.

[Moskitto]

From what i've seen elsewhere, you can narrow down the definition of a democracy so that it only includes 2 countries. The USA and Switzerland.

And Iceland has the longest life expectancy, not the USA. Japan's is also longer than the US.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Yeah, I believe that, we have a lot of pollution here, and we eat pretty bad, and have alcohol/drug probs. And we are often under some stress. Maybe our life expectancy isn't as high as I thought. But our standard of living is good anbd we have good leisure time.

[IzmSchism]

Andorra: 83.47 1
Macau: 81.69 2
San Marino: 81.23 3
Japan: 80.80 4
Singapore: 80.17 5
Australia: 79.87 6
Guernsey: 79.78 7
Switzerland: 79.73 8
Sweden: 79.71 9
Hong Kong: 79.67 10
Canada: 79.56 11
Iceland: 79.52 12
Italy: 79.14 13
Gibraltar: 79.09 14
Cayman Islands: 79.03 15
Monaco: 78.98 16
Liechtenstein: 78.95 17
Spain: 78.93 18
France: 78.90 19
Norway: 78.79 20
Israel: 78.71 21
Jersey: 78.63 22
Faroe Islands: 78.59 23
Greece: 78.59 24
Aruba: 78.52 25
Netherlands: 78.43 26
Martinique: 78.41 27
Virgin Islands: 78.27 28
Malta: 78.10 29
Montserrat: 78.03 30
New Zealand: 77.99 31
Belgium: 77.96 32
Guam: 77.94 33
Austria: 77.84 34
United Kingdom: 77.82 35
Saint Pierre and Miquelon: 77.77 36
Man, Isle of: 77.64 37
Germany: 77.61 38
Finland: 77.58 39
Jordan: 77.53 40
Luxembourg: 77.30 41
United States: 77.26 42
Guadeloupe: 77.16 43
Bermuda: 77.12 44
Saint Helena: 77.01 45
Ireland: 76.99 46
Cyprus: 76.89 47
Denmark: 76.72 48
Taiwan: 76.54 49
Cuba: 76.41 50
Anguilla: 76.31 51
French Guiana: 76.30 52
Kuwait: 76.27 53
Costa Rica: 76.02 54
Chile: 75.94 55
Portugal: 75.94 56
Puerto Rico: 75.76 57
Northern Mariana Islands: 75.74 58
Panama: 75.68 59
Libya: 75.65 60
British Virgin Islands: 75.64 61
Uruguay: 75.44 62
Jamaica: 75.42 63
American Samoa: 75.32 64
Argentina: 75.26 65
Slovenia: 75.08 66
French Polynesia: 75.01 67
Netherlands Antilles: 74.94 68
Czech Republic: 74.73 69
Korea, South: 74.65 70
United Arab Emirates: 74.29 71
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav 74.02 72
Slovakia: 73.97 73
Paraguay: 73.92 74
Tunisia: 73.92 75
Croatia: 73.90 76
Brunei: 73.82 77
Dominica: 73.60 78
Turks and Caicos Islands: 73.52 79
Yugoslavia: 73.50 80
Dominican Republic: 73.44 81
Poland: 73.42 82
Venezuela: 73.31 83
Barbados: 73.25 84
Bahrain: 73.20 85
New Caledonia: 73.02 86
Reunion: 72.93 87
Qatar: 72.62 88
Saint Lucia: 72.57 89
Saint Vincent and the Grenadin 72.56 90
West Bank: 72.28 91
Sri Lanka: 72.09 92
Oman: 72.04 93
Albania: 71.83 94
Mexico: 71.76 95
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 71.75 96
Hungary: 71.63 97
Suriname: 71.63 98
China: 71.62 99
Solomon Islands: 71.55 100
Lebanon: 71.52 101
Ecuador: 71.33 102
Mauritius: 71.25 103
Turkey: 71.24 104
Bulgaria: 71.20 105
Belize: 71.19 106
Malaysia: 71.11 107
Korea, North: 71.02 108
Gaza Strip: 71.01 109
Saint Kitts and Nevis: 71.01 110
Antigua and Barbuda: 70.74 111
Seychelles: 70.69 112
Colombia: 70.57 113
Bahamas, The: 70.46 114
Peru: 70.30 115
Romania: 70.16 116
El Salvador: 70.03 117
Algeria: 69.95 118
Iran: 69.95 119
Estonia: 69.73 120
Vietnam: 69.56 121
Samoa: 69.50 122
Morocco: 69.43 123
Honduras: 69.35 124
Lithuania: 69.25 125
Cape Verde: 69.21 126
Nicaragua: 69.05 127
Palau: 68.89 128
Thailand: 68.86 129
Syria: 68.77 130
Latvia: 68.70 131
Greenland: 68.37 132
Indonesia: 68.27 133
Trinidad and Tobago: 68.27 134
Fiji: 68.25 135
Tonga: 68.25 136
Belarus: 68.14 137
Saudi Arabia: 68.09 138
Philippines: 67.80 139
Russia: 67.34 140
Iraq: 66.95 141
Tuvalu: 66.65 142
Guatemala: 66.51 143
Armenia: 66.49 144
Ukraine: 66.15 145
Marshall Islands: 65.84 146
Sao Tome and Principe: 65.59 147
Moldova: 64.60 148
Georgia: 64.57 149
Grenada: 64.52 150
Mongolia: 64.26 151
Tajikistan: 64.18 152
Bolivia: 64.06 153
Uzbekistan: 63.81 154
World: 63.79 155
Egypt: 63.69 156
Kyrgyzstan: 63.46 157
Papua New Guinea: 63.46 158
Guyana: 63.31 159
Kazakhstan: 63.29 160
Brazil: 63.24 161
Azerbaijan: 62.96 162
India: 62.86 163
Maldives: 62.56 164
Senegal: 62.56 165
Pakistan: 61.45 166
Nauru: 61.20 167
Turkmenistan: 61.00 168
Vanuatu: 60.95 169
Bangladesh: 60.54 170
Comoros: 60.41 171
Yemen: 60.21 172
Kiribati: 60.16 173
Mayotte: 59.83 174
Nepal: 58.22 175
Ghana: 57.24 176
Sudan: 56.94 177
Cambodia: 56.82 178
Eritrea: 56.18 179
Madagascar: 55.35 180
Burma: 55.16 181
Cameroon: 54.59 182
Togo: 54.35 183
Equatorial Guinea: 53.95 184
Gambia, The: 53.59 185
Laos: 53.48 186
Bhutan: 52.79 187
Tanzania: 51.98 188
Liberia: 51.41 189
Djibouti: 51.21 190
Mauritania: 51.14 191
Nigeria: 51.07 192
Chad: 50.88 193
Benin: 49.94 194
Gabon: 49.59 195
Guinea-Bissau: 49.42 196
Haiti: 49.38 197
Congo, Democratic Republic of 48.94 198
Lesotho: 48.84 199
South Africa: 48.09 200
Congo, Republic of the: 47.57 201
Kenya: 47.49 202
Mali: 47.02 203
Somalia: 46.60 204
Burkina Faso: 46.41 205
Afghanistan: 46.24 206
Burundi: 46.06 207
Guinea: 45.91 208
Sierra Leone: 45.60 209
Cote d'Ivoire: 44.93 210
Ethiopia: 44.68 211
Central African Republic: 43.80 212
Uganda: 43.37 213
Niger: 41.59 214
Namibia: 40.62 215
Rwanda: 38.99 216
Swaziland: 38.62 217
Angola: 38.59 218
Zambia: 37.29 219
Botswana: 37.13 220
Zimbabwe: 37.13 221
Malawi: 37.08 222
Mozambique: 36.45 223

[Moskitto]

Yeah, Iceland isn't really going to have as much pollution as the US since Iceland get's all it's electricity from geothermal sources rather than fossil fuels.

The UN recently ranked Canada as the best place to live with Norway second and the US third.

I always thought that in the US people would have less leisure time because there's supposedly a stronger work ethos in the US than in Europe so people tend to work longer hours.

(Edited by Moskitto at 9:05 pm on June 21, 2002)

[ILoveShrub]

The truth is Apache, you can't please everybody. Someone is always going to feel oppressed. Right now in the "free country of America" our rights are being stolen. America was one of the last countries to outlaw slavery. It oppressed all civil rights movements, such as the African America, Womens, Gay and Lesbian, Student, A. I. M., and more. So to answer your question, someone will always be oppressed. I have read of a cuban who complained of the lack of free speech. But he also said that it was a necessary oppression to keep what the people of cuba wanted. And that was and is obviosly socialism.

[Guest]

An estimated 80 million people dead as a result of communism, does not outweigh the oppression that the U.S. has caused. You look at all the statving countries out there in the world. The U.S. did it. They did it by not giving the world the shirt off its back. They did it by not giving away all of their resources. They did it by failing to sink to the level of communist countries. They did it by providing a standard of living the exceeded what the rest of the world knew at that time. If the U.S. had never created such a just society all of these arguments would be mute points. The rest of the oppressed world would not have understood the implications of their own suffering. There would not have been any yardstick to measure such things and they would have remained happy as slaves and plebes. Now that the western world has generated a free society all other humans look to it and must face the plight of their existence. Blaim the U.S. for showing people what they long for, but refusing to give it away. Blaim the U.S. for enhancing the market system that allows people to acquire goods at minimal duress. They are the ones who have corrupted the world with their trinkets. They are the ones who made life easier and more efficient. I would rather live in a mud hut and drink dirty water than to exist in a world that allows people the capacity to determine their own existence. The land belongs to the trees, and we humans must march into our graves in order to provide them with the compost they need in order to survive.

Garbage! Rubbish!

Every government that has ever called itself socialist or communist does in fact accurately reflect the unlying theory. Marxism is Stalinism and not far of from the purest for of socialism, which was implemented by the NAZI party. If you subscribe to American liberalism, communism, or socialism; then I highly suggest that you do climb into your own graves, because this is precisely what is asked of those who live under such a system.

[Michael De Panama]

Apache, all "communist" governments that have existed thus far have had a class system and, therefore, and not good representations of what we are trying to achieve. In fact, they can not truly be considered "communist". They have all been closer to fascism or feudalism. I do agree than a totalitarian communist government can be ten times worse than anything capitalism can string out.

[Mazdak]

Much of the totalitarian aspect was spawned becasue of the pressures facing communist countries. Almost every single communist country has had a counterevolution and expects US aid to rebels and dissidents.

Vox- ??? How is executing scum and rif raf a bad thing? If you kill, (by actual murder or drug selling or something else like it), you are killed through hard labor. And you deserve it. Why would it be so wrong to punish someone giving them the punishment that fits the crime ( and eye for an eye/tooth for a tooth)
I dont see that kind of government as being evil and oppressive for killing chil murderers. Would you want to live in a place where mass murderers would live happily after spending 10 years in prison?

[Ernest Everhard]

hey d day, you don't have a system.

[Apache]

Quote: from Mazdak on 6:05 pm on June 21, 2002
Much of the totalitarian aspect was spawned becasue of the pressures facing communist countries. Almost every single communist country has had a counterevolution and expects US aid to rebels and dissidents.

So by that argument, Pinochet just did what he had to do? And he ONLY had to kill less than 3,200 people.
Perhaps he could give humanitarian lessons to Castro?