Forcing Communism - isn't it wrong to force people?

[GWF]

I know this will sound odd, since I am a Commie, but isn't it wrong to enforce communism on people who don't want it? Look at Russia under Stalin, The former DDR. The people hated the gouvernement. But if you stand for 100% behind Communism it 'll work, you just cant force people, it they want to be under a capitalist regime, and become slaves to the system, fine! But they 'll be sorry later and will have a longing to the honesty of the communist regimes. (Whitout weird Stasi and KGB meseurs and stuff) Hower the CIA and FBI are the same.

[Xvall]

We don't plan on forcing communism. If we establish a communist society, people can leave if they want. That's their decision, and we have no intention to make it a prison.

[GWF]

That's all I needed to hear!

[Supermodel]

Che's position on this is that people would either logically become communists or could be persuaded that it was the right way to commune sociaty. When offered a job on the condition that he joined the guatemalan communist party, he declined because that was absolutely the wrong way to get anyone to join the movement.

[Capitalist Imperial]

it they want to be under a capitalist regime, and become slaves to the system, fine! But they 'll be sorry later and will have a longing to the honesty of the communist regimes. (Whitout weird Stasi and KGB meseurs and stuff) Hower the CIA and FBI are the same.


LOL, slaves?? Capitalists do what they want, when they want. There is no limit to our success or standard of living. We get information from diverse sources. We can speak out against the government. We have freedom of speech, religion, privacy,and assembly

Communists must do what the government says, when the government says it. You can't leave the country, Your career will be what the state says, your mediocre-at-best standard of living will be controlled by the state, and information is dispersed only by the state-controlled media... no freedom of speech, no freedom to assemble, no freedom of religion, no right to privacy.

So who, sir, are the slaves???

[Moskitto]

In my last life, people learned things by reading things. Ah well.

I think I might change my Rosa Luxemburg Quote to a John Ball quote. But I might get banned from the board for having a quote by a priest and a Christian evangelist on a left wing board. Ah well.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 8:17 pm on June 17, 2002
We don't plan on forcing communism. If we establish a communist society, people can leave if they want. That's their decision, and we have no intention to make it a prison.


again, easier said than done

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Moskitto on 9:13 pm on June 17, 2002
In my last life, people learned things by reading things. Ah well.



Was that comment for me, Mosquito? If it was, what should I read that will convince me that what I empiricly I observed for the last 50 years of history is wrong???

[vox]

LOL, slaves?? Capitalists do what they want, when they want. There is no limit to our success or standard of living. We get information from diverse sources. We can speak out against the government. We have freedom of speech, religion, privacy,and assembly

Communists must do what the government says, when the government says it. You can't leave the country, Your career will be what the state says, your mediocre-at-best standard of living will be controlled by the state, and information is dispersed only by the state-controlled media... no freedom of speech, no freedom to assemble, no freedom of religion, no right to privacy.

So who, sir, are the slaves???


Are you arguing against communism or against the authoritarian collectivism of Lenin/Stalin? You have to choose, you know. You really can't have it both ways.

vox (knows more than you do)

[Moskitto]

I refer oneself to Vox's post.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from vox on 9:55 pm on June 17, 2002


Are you arguing against communism or against the authoritarian collectivism of Lenin/Stalin? You have to choose, you know. You really can't have it both ways.

vox (knows more than you do)

I am arguing against the system, so far called "communism", as it hs been employed and practicced by a number of countries since the early 20th century. If your use of "communism" refers to the theoretical utopian system proposed by Marx that has not even approached feasibility let alone application in reality, then no, I am not arguing against that. That system sounds pretty good, in theory.

Then again, so do flying cars.

[James]

And whats wrong with flying cars?

[Capitalist Imperial]

It was an allusion to theoretically good ideas that were supposed to have existed by now, but have yet to be actually employed in reality.

[James]

It was an allusion to theoretically good ideas that were supposed to have existed by now, but have yet to be actually employed in reality.

...you never know what our governments have developed...

[RGacky3]

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL, slaves?? Capitalists do what they want, when they want. There is no limit to our success or standard of living. We get information from diverse sources. We can speak out against the government. We have freedom of speech, religion, privacy,and assembly

Communists must do what the government says, when the government says it. You can't leave the country, Your career will be what the state says, your mediocre-at-best standard of living will be controlled by the state, and information is dispersed only by the state-controlled media... no freedom of speech, no freedom to assemble, no freedom of religion, no right to privacy.

So who, sir, are the slaves??? "

Capitalist Imperial.........under a capitalist economy, you are bound as a slave to your employer, sure you can leave when ever you want, but you also have to feed your family, thus you can't leave. You can't choose your job, becouse if people choose their jobs, their would be no strawberry pickers, and if you tell me that they have low paying jobs becouse they are lazy, you are the most ignorant fucker ever, and you should die. ANY ONE WHO SAYS THAT POOR WORKERS ARE POOR BECOUSE THEY ARE LAZY SHOULD DIE PAINFULLY AT MY HANDS I WILL TOURTURE AND SLOUGHTER YOU AND I WILL ENJOY EVERY BIT OF IT.
CI, I hate you, why don't you die, go hang yourself

[Conghaileach]

As Don Marquis said, "When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him whose."

[Conghaileach]

Shit, it was in my sig.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CiaranB on 11:03 pm on June 17, 2002
As Don Marquis said, "When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him whose."


Typical liberal fare, credit everyone but the actual entrepeneur for his/her success. Thats right, everyone that is born in the USA, or I guess all capitalists in general, are handed a $5 million check when they turn 18. That is how it works. No hard work, no great ideas, no 18 hour days at small mom/pop businessed to get them off the ground. No, we are all rich from inherintences and dumb luck. Yep, yessiree, we force people into labor with a gun to their head, and get rich of them, yep. We don't give the average citizen a chance to start his own business, nope, we force him to take an hourly wage and work for us. Only those who win the "business" lottery are allowed to start their own enterprise in the USA. Thats how it works, uhuh.

[vox]

CI,

As I stated in a post to SM, not everyone can be an owner, some have to be workers. How would you solve the problem of a worker not being paid enough to afford rent?

vox

[Capitalist Imperial]

I agree, vox, but with capitalism you get to chose which you do, and even small-capacity American business owners could be considered self-contained "workers". Providing a good/service to the community for a return. Most americans in the labor market are happy to be on the clock or salary roll as it is usually a good standard of living.

[Mazdak]

Communism should be forced
How can we be hipocrites!! dont we have "missionares" forcing religion on people. We have nationalism being forced on Americans (or people from the US) in the form of this "love it or leave" it propoganda. We literally forced people to become capitalist during our 1950's withchunts when being communist meant losing your job.

So how can we not justify forcing capitalism on the ignorant masses??? Most people think Hitler is COMMUNIST(at least in the US) !!! People will never accept communism unless they have a gun pointed at their heads. Only those who are far less narrowminded even try to understand it.

[Michael De Panama]

Those who believe that communism should be forced do not trust the strength of communism as an ideology enough to believe that communism is actually the right way. These fools are weak-minded shames to the movement.

It's interesting that you compare the enforcement of communism to the enforcement of religion in missionaries. Most commies believe that "religion is the opiate of the masses". It was the enforcement of religion that led to the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the genocide of the Native American people, and Nazi Germany. It's interesting that you compare it to American nationalism, as we commies passionately despise American nationalism. If you can justify American nationalism, why even bother associating with the commies? The sheer fact that you compare the two proves your hypocracy.

[Hattori Hanzo]

true communism can't exist unless the workers want it

[Conghaileach]

from Capitalist Imperial
Most americans in the labor market are happy to be on the clock or salary roll as it is usually a good standard of living.Usually a good standard of living? In the U$, 40% of the population (roughly 100 million people) live on the poverty line. Possibly even more since the county's economic slide after Dubya took over.

The richest 1% own more than the poorest 90%. I suppose that rich people are all hard workers and the destitute are all lazy bums?

[vox]

"I agree, vox, but with capitalism you get to chose which you do, and even small-capacity American business owners could be considered self-contained "workers". Providing a good/service to the community for a return. Most americans in the labor market are happy to be on the clock or salary roll as it is usually a good standard of living."

That's all well and good, but it doesn't really answer the question. Also, it's quite US-centric, isn't it? After all, a lot of Latin Americans aren't too pleased with the amount of their wage or the lifestyle it affords them.

Barbara Ehrenreich did an informal test, taking low-wage jobs and declaring the experiment a success if she could afford rent at the end of the month. She wasn't able to. You can read about it in Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America, which is a quick read. She also brings up the point about the poor competing with the rich in the rent market, and how the poor don't stand a chance (San Francisco and Minneapolis are two good examples of this).

So, the question remains: what do you propose to do with people who work full-time but can't afford to live?

vox

[Guest]

This is Capitalist Fighter....
CerianB those are THE most absurd figures i have ever come across. Are you listening to what you are saying???? You think 40% of Americans live under the poverty line? And 1% of the population own more than 90%. Seriously dude that is just utterly stupid.

[Hattori Hanzo]

come on CF, he probably just made a mistake.

oh, and it may as well be 1% and 90%, because the other 9% would be middle class

[Guest]

There is a difference between making a mistake and blatantly lying and convoluting the truth. In my eyes that is exactly what happened. I'm not going to deny that there are poor people in the U.S., in fact just under 1/4 in America live under the poverty line, but stretching out to make it sound as if America is a failure is absurd. I'm sure you if examine similar figures in Cuba you will see that Castro and his henchmen own 90% of the wealth in Cuba, the tourists account of 9% and the population for appoximatelyh 1%. That is going by that logic.

[Guest]

Also Hattori the middle class make up the most of the most populous class in all capitalist countries so i'd think they would own more than the figure you gave them in accordance to wealth. There isn't wage disparity to that large degree! (At least i'd hope not hehe ;))

[Hattori Hanzo]

the name's Hanzo (in Japan we do surname first) and i was referring to unindustrialized countries, so i'll give you credit for this one ;)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 3:00 am on June 18, 2002
Communism should be forced
How can we be hipocrites!! dont we have "missionares" forcing religion on people. We have nationalism being forced on Americans (or people from the US) in the form of this "love it or leave" it propoganda. We literally forced people to become capitalist during our 1950's withchunts when being communist meant losing your job.

So how can we not justify forcing capitalism on the ignorant masses??? Most people think Hitler is COMMUNIST(at least in the US) !!! People will never accept communism unless they have a gun pointed at their heads. Only those who are far less narrowminded even try to understand it.


Actually, after 9/11 there was a surge in patriotism in the form of t-shirts, bumper stickers, and some ameri-centric TV commercials, but that is about it, hardly "forced nationalism".

And the vst majority of Americans Understand that hitler was a Nazi, not a communist.

Don't underestimate Americans. It is our people that made the USA the most powerful empire in history.

[Hattori Hanzo]

CI, come on, almoist all the children in my school think I am a nazi because i am leftist!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CiaranB on 11:55 am on June 18, 2002

from Capitalist Imperial
Most americans in the labor market are happy to be on the clock or salary roll as it is usually a good standard of living.Usually a good standard of living? In the U$, 40% of the population (roughly 100 million people) live on the poverty line. Possibly even more since the county's economic slide after Dubya took over.

The richest 1% own more than the poorest 90%. I suppose that rich people are all hard workers and the destitute are all lazy bums?


That statistic is laughable!!! Can you cite your source please? 40%? Almost 1/2? What country do you live in? It can't be the USA, because if you actually lived here, then you would not have even wasted peoples time with this post!!! And what is "below the poverty line" anyway? Forty percent!!!!! LOL, LOL, c'mon,man, at least be realistic with your claims.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Danm CI, life must be great for u

[Capitalist Imperial]

I am american middle class, and I appreciate my standard of living. But that has nothing to do with commies just posting bad, inflated statistics that have absolutely no foundation at all, painting the USA in a much worse light than it deserves.

[Hattori Hanzo]

it's not about america, just about the countries it's raped globally

[Mazdak]

Well, i am american middle class too, and i still see people living in poverty. And Exactly as Hattori Hanzo said, its the foreign policy

[Conghaileach]

This is Capitalist Fighter....
CerianB those are THE most absurd figures i have ever come across. Are you listening to what you are saying???? You think 40% of Americans live under the poverty line? And 1% of the population own more than 90%. Seriously dude that is just utterly stupid.
You're right about the 1%/90%. That's not true for the U$ - it's actually true for the world as a whole: the richest 1% of people in the world own more than the poorest 90%.

Oh, and the 40% of U$ citizens being on the poverty line is true.

[Conghaileach]

from Capitalist Imperial
And what is "below the poverty line" anyway?The poverty line is the salary that's needed in order to be able to pay the bills, eat, and send the kids to school.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CiaranB on 6:38 pm on June 18, 2002


Oh, and the 40% of U$ citizens being on the poverty line is true.


No, CirianB, its not. It is absolutely not. What country are you from and where did you pull out this statistic?

[Hattori Hanzo]

CI you are full of shit. what is the % then?

[Capitalist Imperial]

How am I full of it? I live here in the USA, I see it every day. The poverty line is probably about 15%.

[Hattori Hanzo]

what's your source?

sorry if i get out of hand, but i can get into these converations sometimes ;)

[jimr]

he doesnt have a source, he probably just lives in a good area, and looks about and see everyone prosperiing just as he does. He does not see, or does not want to see the areas of America where the poor are the majority.

I am not insulting you CI i am just making an assumption, please feel free to correct me if im wrong.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Actually, its closer to 11%, a record low!!!

Here is my source:

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/20...1/cb01-158.html (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2001/cb01-158.html)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Now what?

[Hattori Hanzo]

I stand corrected

[Capitalist Imperial]

I appreciate your open-mindedness. Where is CiaranB now?

Are you a japaneze national? I would think that japaneze citizens would tend to be among the most pro-capitalist people on earth! It has been a very successful system for Japan!

[Hattori Hanzo]

it is very successful in japan, but we the economy is now in a slump (it has been for a long time)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Capitalism has economic slumps, but it is cyclical, it will rebound and be strong again, and even our slumps provide for a better standard than communism. Japan is strong, and your economy will soon rebound.

[jimr]

It has only been so strong becaus America has pumped in money to keep the market alive. The same can be said for German led europe. Without these markets America would flounder and Capitalism would be exposed as the fraud it is.

[Hattori Hanzo]

i heard some thing about america not being as strong as they make it seem in the NYSE, that they lie a little bit...

[Capitalist Imperial]

America is keeping these markets alive, not vice versa. Japan and germany in the 2nd 1/2of the century are american prodigies, and are among our strongest allies and trade partners, but if these countries folded, the USA would definately survive The US relies on no one for survival, we have investments in a number of countries, and we could be effected by their dissovle, but it would not be an issue of survival. The US could legitimately survive as isolationist.

[Hattori Hanzo]

the US couldn't survive isolated. trust me. the us use the world as a crutch

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 8:21 pm on June 18, 2002
the US couldn't survive isolated. trust me. the us use the world as a crutch

Trust me, we could. We have the technology, industry, and resources to exist as isolationists. The world economy depends on the US much more than the US depends on the world. We have more wealth than the rest of the world combined.

[Mazdak]

The US followed this "isolationist" policy for quite some time (only in theory) in the first half of the century and the most of the 18th and 19th centuries.

And even though it could survive isolated, it would eventually become stagnant. Look at China and Japan from the 17th through 19th centuries.. Sure they survived, but with what? they still used swords and outdated techniques. Americans tend to be arrogant like this. they think they have the greatest nation and could defeat everything else on the planet.

Sure america can become isolationist, but for how long??

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:01 pm on June 18, 2002
The US followed this "isolationist" policy for quite some time (only in theory) in the first half of the century and the most of the 18th and 19th centuries.

And even though it could survive isolated, it would eventually become stagnant. Look at China and Japan from the 17th through 19th centuries.. Sure they survived, but with what? they still used swords and outdated techniques. Americans tend to be arrogant like this. they think they have the greatest nation and could defeat everything else on the planet.

Sure america can become isolationist, but for how long??

We are the greatest nation and we can defeat everything else on the planet.

[Mazdak]

OK??? So??? The Chinese Empire could defeat every other world power for over a thousand years, but when they stopped dealing wiht outsiders. they were no longer the most powerful were they???

[Capitalist Imperial]

hmmmmm....ok, obviously the USA couldn't survive as a nation and still maintain world power, I got carried away in my patriotism.

[Guest]

from Capitalist Imperial
Here is my source:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2001/cb01-158.htmlThey source you use is erroneous. It claims that the poverty threshold for a family of five (two parents + three children) is $20,550. How many people seriously think that a five-person family can get by on less that $21,000 a year? There are lone people who could barely get by on this kind of money.

[Capitalist Imperial]

It can be done. Besides, if you make 20k/ year, whose responsibility is it if you have 5 kids??? The states? No, its whoever pumped out 5 kids on 20k/ year.

[Mazdak]

I am afraid to say it, but i agree with Cappie imperial, it is not the states fault you had five kids.

But that means nothing, 20,550 is barely enough to afford a car and with the huge amount of taxes we pay, it is probably less

[Guest]

I never said it was the state's fault, but this report has seriously downplayed the amount it takes a family to survive, meaning that the proverty rate is presented as lower that what it actually is.

[Mazdak]

Ok, which proves this isnt the great free paradise most immigrants and americans think it is

[Michael De Panama]

I would not deny that this is the most free country in the world. This, of course, is at the expense of the rest of the world. The major motivation for seeking out life in America is American oppression outside. That's the whole reason I'm here. I certainly wouldn't be proud about something like that. "Yeah, God bless America! If you don't like it, get out! And go work in some overheated textile factory we so graciously put out there so that I can wrap my fatass in a brand new sweater."

[Mazdak]

Well put.

I have a good life in the US(material wise) but it is the foreign policy and lies of the government that change me

[Guest]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 2:09 am on June 20, 2002
I would not deny that this is the most free country in the world. This, of course, is at the expense of the rest of the world. The major motivation for seeking out life in America is American oppression outside. That's the whole reason I'm here. I certainly wouldn't be proud about something like that. "Yeah, God bless America! If you don't like it, get out! And go work in some overheated textile factory we so graciously put out there so that I can wrap my fatass in a brand new sweater."


This is CI...

Most of the countries that the US "oppresses" were around before the US, so whose responsibility is it that these countries never pulled up their own bootstraps as they were being surpassed by an ambtious empire?

[Guest]

Quote: from Mazdak on 1:29 am on June 20, 2002
Ok, which proves this isnt the great free paradise most immigrants and americans think it is


Actually, I think it is quite free and as close as an average person can get to paradise as far as opportunity and standard of living goes.

If the US was not such a great, free paradise, then I think immigrants would have got the word out back to their home countries about 10 years ago. But, yet, they keep coming, thousands every day. Something must be going right!

Also, a 20k salary is plenty enough to finance a modest automobile.

[Guest]

...word back to their home country 100 years ago, I meant

[marxistdisciple]

*CI casts whip down....*CRACK!*

"Who's fault is it that we oppress you?!?!"

"Ours master!"

"Who's the best and the biggest?!?"

*hears chants of "USA! USA! USA!"

The US supresses these countries economically. They could turn communist, but we all know what happens when a government chooses a political system the US doesn't like. Bang Bang you're dead, CIA shot you in the head.

The US are the bullies, they make everything their business, they get involved in wars purely for profit, and revell in pride when the people from the countries they are opressing change sides and flee to the ranks of the opressors. Just like a playground bully.

It's almost childlike in fact. They take so much pride for being the "biggest" and the "best." but then pretend they are all sensitive to everyone's needs, and didn't do anything wrong. The US wants to be the mediator and the opressor at the same time, it wants to ruin a country economically and then send it aid afterwards to feed it's starving children. It wants to crush a communist country, and then say "look they are running to the USA, we must be better!"

[Mazdak]

Guest- immigrants thought this country was gonna be the greatest thing with golden streets etc. I would come to the USA if i had known that too!

[dailydivet]

The best part about the U.S. situation is, look how far we've gone under a mixed economy! We aren't even fully capitalistic! If we were, our Big Brother would be limited much, much more. We would have a police force, a courts system, and a military (only for retaliatory purposes). Less (physical) involvement in the world altogether and more trading. Since government has a monopoly on the legal use of force, smaller government would mean less abuse of force.

About the poor workers in text-tile factories: why do they do it? If it's so bad, why don't they just go back to their primitive methods of self-sustenance farming? Our corporations don't hold guns to anyone's head; that is from our Big Brother (which is a result of inflated government control through a mixed economy, not Laissez-faire Capitalism).

About immigrants and poverty: what about all the Catholics, Irish, Hmong, Vietnamese, Japanese, Indian, and Scandanavians who came near the birth of our country and became very successful? They were also escaping persecution, but they found a home in the U.S. and rose from poverty. Even some who were enslaved (Africans) eventually were freed (by the Capitalistic North) and now play a large part in our nation. Those who are poor can achieve, or else I've got no chance ;).

[Conghaileach]

"I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime."
Albert Einstein, 1947

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:17 am on June 21, 2002
Guest- immigrants thought this country was gonna be the greatest thing with golden streets etc. I would come to the USA if i had known that too!


Mazdak, immigration been happening for over 200 years!!! If immigrants were really disappointed in the US, wouldn't word have gotten out now? We are still #1 in immigration! Something must be going right.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CiaranB on 7:50 pm on June 21, 2002
"I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime."
Albert Einstein, 1947

Einstein was an anomoly, he doesn't represent most people. Besides, he was a math/physics genious, not a genius in everything.

[Conghaileach]

from Capitalist Imperial
We are still #1 in immigration! Something must be going right.As I' sure you know, CI, people spend what little money they have getting into America. This means they have no money left to try to get back out.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CiaranB on 8:01 pm on June 21, 2002

from Capitalist Imperial
We are still #1 in immigration! Something must be going right.As I' sure you know, CI, people spend what little money they have getting into America. This means they have no money left to try to get back out.

That is not always true. Besides, very few want to get back out anyway. Saving enough for a plane ticket home isn't that hard, especially in the US.

[Mazdak]

What about the migrant workers who work for less than minimum wage? They barely have enough to survive let along afford plane tickets.

How are we not holding a gun to one's head- it's called taxes. U have to pay them

[GWF]

Quote: from marxistdisciple on 9:12 pm on June 20, 2002
*CI casts whip down....*CRACK!*

"Who's fault is it that we oppress you?!?!"

"Ours master!"

"Who's the best and the biggest?!?"

*hears chants of "USA! USA! USA!"

The US supresses these countries economically. They could turn communist, but we all know what happens when a government chooses a political system the US doesn't like. Bang Bang you're dead, CIA shot you in the head.

The US are the bullies, they make everything their business, they get involved in wars purely for profit, and revell in pride when the people from the countries they are opressing change sides and flee to the ranks of the opressors. Just like a playground bully.

It's almost childlike in fact. They take so much pride for being the "biggest" and the "best." but then pretend they are all sensitive to everyone's needs, and didn't do anything wrong. The US wants to be the mediator and the opressor at the same time, it wants to ruin a country economically and then send it aid afterwards to feed it's starving children. It wants to crush a communist country, and then say "look they are running to the USA, we must be better!"






I agree totally with you!!

[GWF]

Quote: from marxistdisciple on 9:12 pm on June 20, 2002
The US supresses these countries economically. They could turn communist, but we all know what happens when a government chooses a political system the US doesn't like. Bang Bang you're dead, CIA shot you in the head.

The US are the bullies, they make everything their business, they get involved in wars purely for profit, and revell in pride when the people from the countries they are opressing change sides and flee to the ranks of the opressors. Just like a playground bully.

It's almost childlike in fact. They take so much pride for being the "biggest" and the "best." but then pretend they are all sensitive to everyone's needs, and didn't do anything wrong. The US wants to be the mediator and the opressor at the same time, it wants to ruin a country economically and then send it aid afterwards to feed it's starving children. It wants to crush a communist country, and then say "look they are running to the USA, we must be better!"






I agree totally with you!!

[dailydivet]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:38 am on June 22, 2002

How are we not holding a gun to one's head- it's called taxes. U have to pay them


Yes, which is why I didn't say GOVERNMENT, I said CORPORATIONS don't hold a gun to anyone's head. If you don't want a small salary, then move elsewhere for another job, or starve. In our "mixed economy" Government (Big Brother) has mandated taxes. In a Laissez-faire economy, there would be no mandated taxes. Apparently many on this board ASSUME that the United States is a Capitalistic country; well, not totally we aren't. And Big Brother is just Big enough to screw around with things (minimum wage laws, taxes, antitrust legislation, political clout, imperialism).


They barely have enough to survive let along afford plane tickets.

Yes, and where are these millions, or thousands, or even hundreds of immigrants who want to leave? Why do they risk their LIVES coming from Cuba? Why do they jump barbed fences from Mexico? And then, why do they get a job, start families? Or get on welfare? I'm sure it is because they are dying to get out! Right? Even though, they could just run to Mexico or Canada; I'm sure they really WANT to leave, but I'M preventing them, right?

[Guest]

Divet, are you implying that minimum wage and antitrust laws do more harm than good? If so, why?

[Mazdak]

Divet, are you saying that mexican migrant workers live well in the US? It is ignorance that brings them here, and then they are trapped. IF YOU CANT AFFORD TO FEED YOUR FAMILY, HOW CAN YOU AFFORD PLANE TICKETS? once again, i say this.

[man in the red suit]

Mexico is already capitalist, and those who risk their lives hoppin over fences in Cuba etc etc, just want money. Most of them are also criminals. Nobody risks their lives anymore either. Castro lets anyone leave Cuba now, as long as the government is previously informed of the person's desire to leave the country.
I went to Cuba, regardless of how "hard" everyone says it is to go there. Everyone is very nice, and on top of that, I never heard one complaint about Castro or his regime. I also didn't see any of Castro's death squad coming to kill us. No. Those who want to leave, want money. Those who stay, are law abiding citizens who don't need money to make them happy. Not all of the people who moved from Cuba were criminals. Some of them just wanted to see their families in America and others, as I said, just wanted money. There may be a controled media in Cuba, but I never heard any Cubans complaining. Maybe it is just because I went to Havana and never actually saw what Castro was "hiding" from me, but I don't think that's the case.

As for forcing communism, I don't think it is right. I don't believ in "exporting" the revolution. Those who need communism, will revolt themselves. Nobody needs the help of the soviet union or China. Let communists be communist, socialists be socialists, and capitalists be capitalists. Although capitalism is bad, it has its place in history. I think that it is ALMOST needed to create a balance. I canno imagine the whole world as being communist. I think communism is only good for countries that don't have a middle class. Those who are being exploited in a worse manner than the average American. We need to destroy the social gaps in America but not establish communism here. Commuism would only make things worse, as much as I hate to admit it. The other countries of the world lke Mexico, Hungary, Yugoslavia, El Salvador, etc etc. need it more than us. A country with a bad economy and where people are exploited, is where communism is needed. Commuism is not something that can be forced on people. Those who want it can get it. Those who don't want it, won't get it. It is as simple as that. This is just my opinion. If you don't agree, I don't care.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 4:37 am on June 23, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Yes, but without all its sweatshops and minimum wage workers /child labor, the US economy would suffer drastically and people would eventually become poverty stricken and have to revolt. Oh, and exporting? then would you approve of rebels asking for aid from communist countries? If the rebellion appears as if it is about to be anihilated, why not help it survive?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 10:11 pm on June 23, 2002
Yes, but without all its sweatshops and minimum wage workers /child labor, the US economy would suffer drastically and people would eventually become poverty stricken and have to revolt. Oh, and exporting? then would you approve of rebels asking for aid from communist countries? If the rebellion appears as if it is about to be anihilated, why not help it survive?

This is not true, U.S. use of 3rd world labor is a relatively recent development in American Economics, and it is a grand fallacy to assume the U.S.A. is Economically dependent on it.

[Moskitto]

How recent is recent?

[Mazdak]

Recent? We had child labor IN THIS COUNTRY in the 19th century, now we are a bit better, once we force a country to have "freedom" we have all our companies set up nice little sweatshops in them (nike, etc.) It has been going on since the first days of this blasted nations existence