Ban stalinists , maoists and hoxhaists

[nvm]

I wrote this as a joke to anther forum and an admin moved it to learning.
Ok people it was a joke!
hahaahahah
i hate stalinists, maoists but i dont think they should be banned.
We'll just exile them after the revolution...






Revleft has a strict anti-fascist policy.
What is the difference between Red- Fascism and white fascism then?
Why aren't proponents of Stalin , Mao etc kicked out from this forum?
Stalin purged hundreds of thousands of political opponents , sent gay people to 5 years in prison , purged all those who had a different opinion and committed the most horrible crimes. Mao also killed directly or indirectly millions, had a thought police and was against workers democracy?
Why then shouldn't we ban them just as we ban fascists ?
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/f/f4/Holodomor2.jpg/180px-Holodomor2.jpg<---------Holodomor


http://www.barrybrumfield.com/prophecy/end_times/images/starving_man.jpgGreat Chinese Famine

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

most people like and know stalinists and maoists in real life. though i have never met a hoxhaist.

but if you talk to them, most want the same as the rest of us and really go about denying the worst atrocities that the rest of us accept happen.

but, they are not facists. you know, in china mao's people fought imperialists, in europe the best of the best in the anti facist resistance was the communists (stalinists).

they might be stupid in some areas, but they are hearty and awesome in other areas.

you need to meet a fascist in real life and then meet a maoist/stalinist. they are just nothing alike at all.

plus, revleft is a pluralist left wing forum, not a trotskyist or anarchist only forum. so they wont ever be banned.

[bezdomni]

This is garbage. If anything, we should ban you for perpetuating anti-communist propaganda.

Anyway, you aren't even taking Trotsky's position on Stalin (and his heir's position on Mao). It is untrotskyist to claim that Stalin is a "red fascist", you should try studying Trotsky before you run around calling yourself a follower of his ideology and make foolish threads like this that are more consistent with anarchism or bourgeois liberalism at best.

I am not going to respond to your bullshit attacks on soviet and chinese socialism, and instead suggest that you read a fucking book before you spew shit like this. Stalin and Mao didn't "kill millions" as the bourgeoisie (and fascists, whcih is where most of this shit comes from in the first place) like to say, although some shit happened that was no good.

Find a Marxist-Leninist or Maoist that defends the "murder of 100 million people" or whatever nonsensical statistic you'd like to throw at them, and I'll eat my hat.

EDIT: Also note that over 20 million soviet workers and soldiers died as a result of the nazi occupation, and Stalin's leadership played a significant role in the defeat of fascism. To equate Stalin to Hitler is an outrageous tactic of the bourgeoisie, and you should feel very stupid for suggesting it.

[spartan]

I used to say ban them as well but i have grown out of that.

Yes i disagree with them on many things but what would really be the point in banning them?

"They are Fascist" you will say and yes they have authoritarian tendencies, but they have Socialist authoritarian tendencies not Fascist authoritarian tendencies (Thats a very big difference).

Your usage of the word "Fascist" to describe these people is wrong as there is absolutely no relation to economic Fascism (Which is what really defines Fascism for me) by these people and the historical states that they supported.

Also those pictures are of natural disasters which as far as i know werent deliberately started (Though perhaps not helped by accidental poor decision making) by any of those countries respective Socialist governments (Where is the evidence to prove this claim of deliberate killing?).

[nvm]

It is untrotskyist to claim that Stalin is a "red fascist", you should try studying Trotsky
well in his book the revolution betrayed Trotsky associated Stalin with fascism.
Indeed , banning factions in the party , purging people with different ideas (who were still communist) and with the use of secret police killing or exiling thousands he can be considered a fascist

[AGITprop]

Didn't the KMT slaughter the CPC?

...how very communist.

But then again, I don't know much about it and would be willing to discuss more once I did more research.

[thejambo1]

i dont think you can ban them or class them as fascists, pretty stupid really. i have little in common with maoists and stalinists but see their points of view.

[spartan]

well in his book the revolution betrayed Trotsky associated Stalin with fascism.
Indeed , banning factions in the party , purging people with different ideas (who were still communist) and with the use of secret police killing or exiling thousands he can be considered a fascist

I have no doubt that Trotsky probably did say these things but calling Hoxhaists/Maoists/Stalinists Fascists isnt right as to be Fascist you have to have the relation to Fascist economics, and centrally planned economies under the control of a Bureaucracy isnt related to Fascism (Corporatism, National Syndicalism, etc) as far as i, and my limited knowledge on these subjects, know.

Perhaps "authoritarian" or "Totalitarian" would be a better word to use for some of the actions of the people that the Hoxhaists/Maoists/Stalinists support and the way that they ruled, but otherwise you are, like many leftists, abusing the word "Fascist" to fit to anything that has/shows authoritarian tendencies which is wrong as "authoritarian" and "Totalitarian" already cover that one.

[TC]

Trotsky murdered thousands at kronstadt, so clearly you're a fascist. :p

[Jazzratt]

Trotsky murdered thousands at kronstadt, so clearly you're a fascist. :p

This thread has been won.

[Aurora]

This is total rubbish.

Comrade i suggest you read "Fascism: what it is and how to fight it" by trotsky, pretty self explanatory title http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm infact the first line is "Liberals and even most of those who consider themselves Marxists are guilty of using the world fascist very loosely today."

[AGITprop]

Trotsky murdered thousands at kronstadt, so clearly you're a fascist. :p

Lies, this has been refuted.

Trotsky turned the lugubrious sailors into partying machines,but they just couldn't deal with it because anarchists have less fun; so they all died.

party like a trot...
party like a trot-star :)

[Panda Tse Tung]

This is total rubbish.

Comrade i suggest you read "Fascism: what it is and how to fight it" by trotsky, pretty self explanatory title http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm infact the first line is "Liberals and even most of those who consider themselves Marxists are guilty of using the world fascist very loosely today."

Yeah, one of his phew works that actually was useful to my ideological development.

[Dros]

Revleft has a strict anti-fascist policy.
What is the difference between Red- Fascism and white fascism then?
Why aren't proponents of Stalin , Mao etc kicked out from this forum?
Stalin purged hundreds of thousands of political opponents , sent gay people to 5 years in prison , purged all those who had a different opinion and committed the most horrible crimes. Mao also killed directly or indirectly millions, had a thought police and was against workers democracy?
Why then shouldn't we ban them just as we ban fascists ?
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/f/f4/Holodomor2.jpg/180px-Holodomor2.jpg<---------Holodomor


http://www.barrybrumfield.com/prophecy/end_times/images/starving_man.jpgGreat Chinese Famine

Right. The Holomdor and the famine in China were the faults of the Stalinists. They seized power and then suddenly out of shear maliciousness they decided to cause a famine. It's not like there had been famines in Eastern Europe and in China for millenia. Oh wait...

Really that is a total load of bullshit. Go read a book. Have you ever actually read anything by Trotsky or about Fascism?

Speaking of books and fascists, I'd recommend Muss Russland Hunger? by the Nazi Historian who falsified documents to create the anti-Communist MYTH of the "Holodomor."

It pisses me off when "leftists" post anti-Communist garbage worthy of Reagan...

... no study, no right to speak.

[Dimentio]

Why did I decide to move this to theory?

I was actually inclined to move this to the trashcan, but as this thread reveals so many fault understandings of marxism, fascism, stalinism and trotskyism, I thought it might be suitable to move it here, so that the initiator of the thread could be educated.

[Herman]

Try banning the so called "stalinists", maoists and hoxhaists. You'll find out how unpopular such a notion is.

[RHIZOMES]

What's with all these morons who confuse the term "fascism" with "totalitarianism"?

It's like me confusing a pie with milk because milk is an essential ingredient of pie.


Lies, this has been refuted.

Trotsky turned the lugubrious sailors into partying machines,but they just couldn't deal with it because anarchists have less fun; so they all died.

party like a trot...
party like a trot-star :)

Do you see why we need Chit-Chat now?

[Rosa Provokateur]

Heres an idea... how about nobody ban anybody and we carry on peacefully and freely with eachother? Just a thought.

[Prairie Fire]

Well obviously this thread is just routine "ban the Stalinists" by a gung ho new poster, and I am quite appreciative that a united front (especially other Trotskyists,) opposed this individual.

You're good people.

On an un-related note, something substantial did emerge from this forum:
Spartan:


Your usage of the word "Fascist" to describe these people is wrong as there is absolutely no relation to economic Fascism (Which is what really defines Fascism for me) by these people and the historical states that they supported.



Enver Hoxha! I have commented previously on Spartans turn to Honecker being good for him, as hist stances have changed dramatically, but can it be that Spartan finally understands what Fascism is? I don't believe it!

Bravo!

[Kitskits]

Banning marxist-leninists from a community would reveal it's anarcho-trot dominance so it's a bad thing. Hahahaha j/k

Before calling Stalin a fascist you should

A) Learn what fascism is
B) Read about Stalin from marxist-leninist sources, and not fascistoid bourgeoisie sources

The thing that you accuse Stalin of is the main source of your knowledge about what Stalin 'was'. That's why this is so bullshit

[Rosa Provokateur]

Well obviously this thread is just routine "ban the Stalinists" by a gung ho new poster, and I am quite appreciative that a united front (especially other Trotskyists,) opposed this individual.

You're good people.

Dont get me wrong, I'm against hoaxism as much as I am against any other philosophy thats got somebodys name in it. The point though is that nobody deserves being censored, I wouldnt want anybody doing it to me so I dont let anybody do it to anybody else.

[Kitskits]

I'm against hoaxism as much as I am against any other philosophy thats got somebodys name in it.

Do you seriously believe that? This is ultra-idealistic.

[RedAnarchist]

All three of them are valid revolutionary leftism ideaologies and I therefore would not support any ban on those who subscribe to them.

[quevivafidel]

I'm not a Stalinist and even less a Hoxhaist, but I do think many of Stalin's positions were worthy and he did fight fascism, so he does have some merits, but I do agree that he was totalitarian. Maoism is very different from Stalinism since it is based on the idea that peasants are the revolutionary class. I don't see how their theories are fascist.

Also, just because someone agrees with i.e. Mao's political philosophy and calls themselves a "Maoist" or a "Stalinist," etc doesn't necessarily mean that they're supportive of everything they do...or at least I would hope not since that would be a hero-worship.

[Marsella]

Revleft has a strict anti-fascist policy.
What is the difference between Red- Fascism and white fascism then?
Why aren't proponents of Stalin , Mao etc kicked out from this forum?
Stalin purged hundreds of thousands of political opponents , sent gay people to 5 years in prison , purged all those who had a different opinion and committed the most horrible crimes. Mao also killed directly or indirectly millions, had a thought police and was against workers democracy?
Why then shouldn't we ban them just as we ban fascists ?
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/f/f4/Holodomor2.jpg/180px-Holodomor2.jpg<---------Holodomor


http://www.barrybrumfield.com/prophecy/end_times/images/starving_man.jpgGreat Chinese Famine

What the fuck?!

Where did you get those images from? I am fairly sure I have seen the last picture before, and vaguely remember it being somewhere in Africa.

That would make sense because it is a black man.

And I checked out where that second image is from:

http://www.barrybrumfield.com

A Christian site!

And the first image is from conservapedia! :scared:

Seriously, you need to present far better 'arguments' than this. Stalin's USSR was/is one of the most misrepresented areas of history. There are numerous reasons to criticise it but don't trust these sorts of sources. Shit.

Hoxhaists will laugh at you, and rightfully so.

[rouchambeau]

Why then shouldn't we ban them just as we ban fascists ?
Because the actions have nothing to do with the ideologies in question.

[Keyser]

Dont get me wrong, I'm against hoaxism as much as I am against any other philosophy thats got somebodys name in it.


Then you should change your own political tite of 'Christian-Anarchist'.

Christianity gets it's name after Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

[chegitz guevara]

Doesn't this thread belong in chit-chat, with all the other dick-measuring contests?

[Rosa Provokateur]

Then you should change your own political tite of 'Christian-Anarchist'.

Christianity gets it's name after Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Christ (which is a title and not a part of his name) is an Anglicization of the Greek term for Messiah (χριστός, from the verb χρίω "to anoint"), and literally means "anointed one."

[RedAnarchist]

Doesn't this thread belong in chit-chat, with all the other dick-measuring contests?

I agree.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Right. The Holomdor and the famine in China were the faults of the Stalinists. They seized power and then suddenly out of shear maliciousness they decided to cause a famine. It's not like there had been famines in Eastern Europe and in China for millenia. Oh wait...
^ Win.

I love it when anti-communists talk about conditions in stalinist states and pull them completely out of historical context.

Also, did you know that people living in the Soviet Union in the 1920s didn't have access to televisions, cell phones, microwave ovens, the internet, the contraceptive pill, or even antibiotics? OMG SHOCK HORROR!!!

(hint for the historically challenged: none of those things had been invented yet)

[AGITprop]

Heres an idea... how about nobody ban anybody and we carry on peacefully and freely with eachother? Just a thought.

Might as well pat the capitalists on the back as well...

:glare:

[AGITprop]

Christ (which is a title and not a part of his name) is an Anglicization of the Greek term for Messiah (χριστός, from the verb χρίω "to anoint"), and literally means "anointed one."

Keyser,
I do believe the newbie has owned you.
:crying:

Better luck next time.

[Unicorn]

This thread is BS. All people who represent major Marxist currents deserve a right to post here.

[Zeus the Moose]

Howabout we just ban everyone? That could solve the problem. ;)

[RedAnarchist]

Howabout we just ban everyone? That could solve the problem. ;)

Everyone who isn't RedAnarchist that is. That guy is the best and should never be banned.;)

[The New Manifesto]

well in his book the revolution betrayed Trotsky associated Stalin with fascism.
Indeed , banning factions in the party , purging people with different ideas (who were still communist) and with the use of secret police killing or exiling thousands he can be considered a fascist
Oh the irony?:laugh:

[Dros]

Oh the irony?:laugh:

I know! It's hilarious because they don't see it. :lol:

[redSHARP]

i dont know enough about stalinism or maoism to pass judgement (thank god for the learning forum and wikipedia!) but i do know that some groups lose their way (all groups do, it is natural), but that is ok, revolutions and politics is all about evolution and developing ideas. remember no one is perfect! so we just cant ban them, that would be unfair and against the principles of a united leftist front.

[RedHal]

i dont know enough about stalinism or maoism to pass judgement (thank god for the learning forum and wikipedia!) but i do know that some groups lose their way (all groups do, it is natural), but that is ok, revolutions and politics is all about evolution and developing ideas. remember no one is perfect! so we just cant ban them, that would be unfair and against the principles of a united leftist front.

don't take wikipedia sersioulsy when it comes to political issues, that place is as anti communists as it gets. First it's creator is an Ayn Rand devotee, second wikipedia can be edited by anyone with internet access so basically majority from the 1st world and middle-upper class 3rd worlders who are anti communists.
In the Mao Wiki entry, several citations are lifted from Jung Chang's book "Mao the untold story", and that book has already been discredited

[Random Precision]

Revleft has a strict anti-fascist policy.
What is the difference between Red- Fascism and white fascism then?
Why aren't proponents of Stalin , Mao etc kicked out from this forum?
Stalin purged hundreds of thousands of political opponents , sent gay people to 5 years in prison , purged all those who had a different opinion and committed the most horrible crimes. Mao also killed directly or indirectly millions, had a thought police and was against workers democracy?
Why then shouldn't we ban them just as we ban fascists ?
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/f/f4/Holodomor2.jpg/180px-Holodomor2.jpg<---------Holodomor


http://www.barrybrumfield.com/prophecy/end_times/images/starving_man.jpgGreat Chinese Famine

Shut the fuck up, you idiot liberal.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

There is no such thing as a "red fascist." Fascism is a reaction to a red movement.

Furthermore, I'll echo what others have said: consult sources that weren't written by British secret intelligence officers. Why are you using conservapedia and barrybrumfield for information? The last image doesn't even portray an Asian. Research Stalin and Mao for yourself before accepting mass culture propaganda.

[careyprice31]

This post summs up what i think.

"I'm not a Stalinist and even less a Hoxhaist, but I do think many of Stalin's positions were worthy and he did fight fascism, so he does have some merits, but I do agree that he was totalitarian. Maoism is very different from Stalinism since it is based on the idea that peasants are the revolutionary class. I don't see how their theories are fascist.

Also, just because someone agrees with i.e. Mao's political philosophy and calls themselves a "Maoist" or a "Stalinist," etc doesn't necessarily mean that they're supportive of everything they do...or at least I would hope not since that would be a hero-worship."


and just because I think of some people, like Walter Duranty, as something akin to holocaust deniers because he denied the famine of 1932-1933 does not mean i will support bannage of stlinists and so on. Although I do not think loving Stalin helps the cause any, in fact it will turn people off from Marxism, most people equate it with oppression and the USSR anyway, Stalinists/hoxhaists/maoists do help to educate people about leftist ideas in their own way.

[Dimentio]

This thread is BS. All people who represent major Marxist currents deserve a right to post here.

CRAP (http://communistrevolutionaryactionparty.blogspot.com)?

[Unicorn]

CRAP (http://communistrevolutionaryactionparty.blogspot.com)?
"National Bolsheviks" are actually Fascists, not real Marxists.

[Red October]

Banning Stalinists won't get that icepick out.

Just kidding.


In all seriousness, this kind of sectarianism has no place on revleft. This isn't a forum for trots and anarchists (many of whom would argue trotsky was authoritarian too), it's a forum for all revolutionary leftists. I personally think Stalinism/Maoism/Hoxhaism/etc is shit, but excluding them would mean excluding a very large portion of the revolutionary left. I'm not very happy with Marxism-Leninism being so dominant in many parts of the world instead of Anarchism, but like or not, these people are out there and it's silly not to engage with them. If you want to talk to trots, join the Trotskyist usergroup and stay there where the evil Stalinists can't get to you.

[Keyser]

Christ (which is a title and not a part of his name) is an Anglicization of the Greek term for Messiah (χριστός, from the verb χρίω "to anoint"), and literally means "anointed one."


A pedantic and pointless fact.

Christ, be it his title or his name refers to Jesus the individual, whether as the 'son of god' or the man who came to Earth to 'cleanse' us of our 'sins'.

Also, you state your opposition to the idea of naming a system of thought after one person and in Marx's case, a real person who did exist and their is evidence to prove his past existence, unlike Jesus or your 'god'.

I find it strange that you seem to think naming a system of thought after one person (Marx) is something you are "against", yet have no problem with people putting their blind and irrational faith in a non-existent spirit who apparently created the universe and humankind (with no evidence or proof of this) and the teachings of some renegade Jewish mystic, again Jesus's existence has yet to be proven.

You are "against" Marxism, despite the fact that Marxists do not 'worship' him, just that we consider his theories and analysis to be relevant to human society, it's evolution and the way it works.

Yet you have no problem belonging to a cult (Christianity) that claims to have an answer for everything, including the origins of the universe, despite the complete lack of evidence your cult fails to provide). Add to that that your cult does propagate the idea that a failure to live by the word and the letter of the laws of your 'god', will earn these 'sinners' an eternity in hell with no means of escape from this torment.

Christianity, like all other religions is the highest form of any cult of personality.


Keyser,

I do believe the newbie has owned you.
:crying:

Better luck next time.

I don't think so.