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View Full Version : 'We Were Better Off Under the Russians' - Posted here by pub



Angie
15th June 2002, 05:26
"We were better off under the Russians: the Afghan locals aren't happy."
-- Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020617-260745,00.html). Generally accepted as a right-wing, pro-Capitalist media source.


The Afghan commander laughed at the way the Americans were going about their work. U.S. troops, he said, were obsessed with finding caches of Taliban documents to help track down their fugitive enemies. The commander's friend explained the mirth by pulling out his own identification card: a small passport-like book made by the Taliban and authorized with a Taliban stamp. It was issued April 16, long after the fall of that regime. It's a legitimate document, and the man isn't an enemy—the local government doesn't have money for stationery, so decrees and papers are still being printed on leftover Taliban stock.

That's one, tiny example of how every encounter, from simple visa checks to complicated special ops, is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding, confusions and, in military parlance, snafus. Take the raid on the village of Band Taimore, 80 kilometers west of Kandahar. On the night of May 24, helicopters raining machine-gun fire descended onto the village wheat fields. The mission was a success. U.S. forces killed Haji Bajet, 70, a supporter of Taliban leader Mullah Omar since 1994, who also had links with Akhter Mohammed Usmani, the probable heir to the still-fugitive Omar.

But it wasn't a whistle-clean success—if such a thing is imaginable in Afghanistan—and in the raid's aftermath, anti-U.S. sentiment is rising around strategically important Kandahar.

During the raid, 55 men were taken prisoner. A week later, all but five were released and allowed to return home. When the men were being rounded up, according to villagers, American soldiers bound and shoved the village women. That was an affront. Naibo, a middle-aged mother with cropped black hair, hands and feet scored from years of labor, says troops used plastic handcuffs to tie her hands and a torn turban to gag her. "I felt certain they were going to kill me," she says. "I was whispering the prayer before dying from the Koran." Other women made similar claims. A villager produces his daughter Maba, 7, to act out how she says she was bound. "If they touch our women again we must ask ourselves why are we alive," says Shir Mohammed Stad. "We will have no choice but to fight back."

But it is the death of a child the Americans never even saw that has really galvanized the village. When little Zarghunah woke shortly after midnight on May 24, the roars of choppers and their machine guns frightened her. The six-year-old ran from the outdoor platform where her family was sleeping on the warm summer night. Zarghunah, still half-asleep, stumbled across the uneven ground of the family compound, forgetting about the open well. Her father found her later, nearly 12 meters down the shaft, her body broken, wet and lifeless. Zarghunah loved red dresses and a grown farm dog she called Puppy. "She was the laughter of our house," says her mother.

About 600 people have lodged complaints about the incident. "They are responsible for this loss of life and must answer for it," says a Kandahar police official of the American forces. A gathering of Muslim clerics across the border in Quetta, Pakistan, last week condemned the U.S. and called for retribution. The raid—a necessary one by U.S. calculations—has been added by Afghans to the other, larger accidents during the American campaign: the bombing of a wedding party in December in Paktia, the slaughter of 21 friendly Afghan troops in Uruzgan in January, and the killing of three Afghan soldiers near Gardez the day after the Band Taimore prisoners were freed. Even pro-U.S. figures are worried about public reaction to the accidents. "If America continues to make mistakes, the people will resist," says Khan Mohammed, Kandahar military chief and one of the most powerful warlords in the region. "Only two or three more and their patience will break." Afghans are famously hospitable. But history shows they don't take kindly to invaders or foreign forces that stay too long. The Americans may be wearing out their welcome. As one villager in Band Taimore mutters: "We were better off under the Russians."

Guest
15th June 2002, 14:34
Anti-American Propaganda!

If these accusations were true and such things did occur on a regular basis, some red diaper doper baby associated press agent would sneak in a camcorder and capture such incidents. The reason that I am seeing these things only in print is due to the fact that they are probably not true. Yes it really pulls at my heart strings, but I am capable of spotting bullshit when I see it. I have read many other claims similar, but have never seen one documented by video. Don't tell me these journalists do not have cameras. Don't tell me that the only reason such videos are not viewed is due to capitalist ownership of the T.V. networks. Anyone could post a streaming video or picture on the internet to collaborate such horrible events. Yes friends we do have enemies within our borders. They seem to be a large majority of the press, and the lawyers who would represent men like Jose and Musaui, and don't forget the communists.

RedCeltic
15th June 2002, 15:20
Yes Time Magazine is such an anti-American publication... isn't it?

Guest
15th June 2002, 15:43
It would appear that they ran a story with that kind of angle.

Guest
15th June 2002, 15:49
It just goes to show you how liberal professors have destroyed the minds of the unthinking.

peaccenicked
15th June 2002, 16:20
Time magazine liberal professors.
Are you saying a liberal professor did the interview?
You dont even seem to have a mind that can be destroyed.

Guest
15th June 2002, 16:54
No, I am speaking about the percentage of liberals who teach liberal arts classes. The figure is roughly 90%. When idealistic individuals decide the reason they want to aspire to be journalist is to 'make a difference in the world' rather than to document the truth, can produce a dastardly result. People who will not leave their opinions aside when involved in investigative journalism. You, my friend, are always the one to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than make a descent rebuttal to my arguments. Who is lacking a mind?

Angie
17th June 2002, 13:16
Examples of professors from areas of Universities that aren't Humanitarian-focused. The "disease" is everywhere, Right-Wingers. Perhaps it's best if you just avoid University altogether - the whole idea of getting some intelligence is just far too scary.

"[The American flag is] a symbol of terrorism and death and fear and destruction and oppression."
-- Professor of Physics, Uni of Massachusetts-Amherst.

(a)"The ultimate responsibility lies with the rulers of this country, the capitalist ruling class of this country."
(B)"American imperialism is responsible for this terrorist attack."
-- Mathematics instructor at City University of New York teach-in.

"The United States policies towards the region, especially over the past 10 years (have) engendered serious grievances. Our actions were looking to much of the Arab and Muslim public opinion like a re-edition of 9th centure imperialism."
-- Professor of Government, Uni of Texas-Austin.

"Any country (for your information, the united states), that...
- refuses to join the world court, for fears of cases against U.S. officials;
- refuses to sign the international pact against biological weapons;
- Vetos in the U.N Security Council a motion to send peacekeepers to Israel-Palestine;
- refuses to fun for birth control information abroad;
- refuses to abolish the death penalty;
- spends so little money on foreign aid (less than Denmark for goodness sake!);
- refuses to sign the international pact against land mines;
- is the biggest weapons seller in the world - to third world countries;
... is a terrorist nation and should be treated as such. I am ashamed to be an American."
-- Professor of Biology, Claremont McKenna.

Look what one of the top Universities in America, are up to! Just think - those people are going to be running this country in a few years, or lecturing those people who will be.

"We should build bridges and relationships, not simply bombs and walls."
-- Speaker at Harvard Law School.

"What do we want? Peace! When do we want it? Now!"
-- Chant at Harvard rally, Sept 20, 2001.

"[I deplore those] who are deploying rhetoric and deploying troops without thinking before they speak."
-- Harvard lecturer.

"War is also Terrorism."
-- Harvard sign.

And here's just a couple more, because I thought they were kind of cute, not to mention pointing out more of the view of some amongst America's intellectual elite:

"What you have to look at is the underlying reasons. Poverty breads resentment and resentment breeds anger."
-- Ivy League student.

"To declare war, in this case, is a dangerous use of metaphoric language: it dignifies terrorist acts and implies a war with terrorists could end with a peace treaty. We must resist calls for revenge or retaliation."
-- MIT Professor.

Source: "Defending Civilisation", American Council of Trustees and Alumni. Founded by Lynn Cheney.

A mere scattering of some 115 documented comments made by university professors right across America. Scary stuff, us Left-Wingers.

So. If the top universities (and quite a large number of "lesser" universities, too) are teaching millions of people each year to hate war, and to care for others instead of just themselves, then does that mean it's best just not to be educated?

Perhaps we should set up some more redneck trailer parks, so that the Right-Wingers can all live in close proximity to each other, enjoying the lessening support system while it lasts.

:biggrin:

Capitalist Imperial
17th June 2002, 21:33
[quote]Quote: from Angie on 1:16 pm on June 17, 2002
Examples of professors from areas of Universities that aren't Humanitarian-focused. The "disease" is everywhere, Right-Wingers. Perhaps it's best if you just avoid University altogether - the whole idea of getting some intelligence is just far too scary.

:biggrin:[/
quote]

How dogmatic!!!

Those professors are just as bleeding heart as professors at liberal-art colleges. I don't think being a professor of math or physics gives you credibility in worls politics!!!

Capitalist Imperial
17th June 2002, 21:38
Quote: from Angie on 1:16 pm on June 17, 2002
]
(B)"American imperialism is responsible for this terrorist attack."
-- Mathematics instructor at City University of New York teach-in.




I would expect your stupid, ignorant, self righteouus bleeding heart to accept such utter B.S. as this. Unfortunately, this is typical fare for asinine liberals. It is unbelievable.

dailydivet
21st June 2002, 06:07
Imperialism and Capitalism (Laissez-faire) are not synonomous: http://www.capitalism.org/faq/isolationist.htm.

Time, known to be right-wing? Time seems very middle of the road and objective to me (of course with the avid left-wingers in here, who knows? I suppose unless you are killing in the name of "public good" you are automatically right-wing).

I also think that a distinction needs to be made. Capitalism is not in favor of Big Brother (see Anti-Trust legislation) therefore when our government does stupid-ass stuff (Vietnam and others) it is not the fault of Capitalism. We are in a Mixed Economy, no Laissez-faire Capitalism. In a ME, the Big Brother has more control, therefore more latitude in what happens. So, just because I support Capitalism (Laissez-faire) does not mean I condone every single action of our ME govt. (much as I would assume not all soc/comm. supported every action in their respective countries).

You think that in a Laissez-faire system big corporations would waste money on a war unless it was needed to defend themselves? Hell no! (an upside to greed? who knows!) Why would "greedy" corporations waste so much for no gain? They wouldn't, therefore any non-real (War on Drugs, War on Crime, War on Poverty) or non-beneficial war is most likely a product of the American Big Brother (which I often despise as well).

If I have to hear all the whines (which are accurate) that "true" socialism/communism has never been practiced, then I want to here the cries that "true" Laissez-faire Capitalism has never been practiced. Just for future reference.

And yes, American Professors are very, very left-wing. On all issues: political, economic, social, and legal. Stupid idiot hippies, apparently "idealism" is now the only qualification for being a teacher.

RedCeltic
21st June 2002, 16:37
dailydivet :

I think your Avatar is causing a Network Password box to pop up.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:38 am on June 21, 2002)

marxistdisciple
21st June 2002, 17:33
Geeze I hate that "bleeding heart liberal" cliche. If anyone is well educated in the USA you would think it was university professors. People wave around terms like "liberal" and "hippie" as insults when they are too dumb to think of anything constructive to say. I don't agree with time being a "middle of the road, subjective paper" it is owned by time warner, and anything owned by a giant conglomerate is likely to be slightly tainted by money lust.

Right wingers are usually the people who act all tough about problems, depriving themselves of any empathy for the individuals invloved. This is the complete opposite to liberals who have aparently too much empathy. Right wingers believe in enterprise and business, and are almost always reassuringly numb to human feelings. You should do the political compass thing to see your real position though (www.politicalcompass.org)

"You think that in a Laissez-faire system big corporations would waste money on a war unless it was needed to defend themselves? Hell no!"
War is good for the economy, it makes arms manufacturers money. If you have a slipping economy the most certain thing you can do to recover it is start a war.

I think you are right about not all evils being caused by capitalism, after all greed is a perfectly human trait. It is however fueld by a political system that recognises it as a virtue.
I for one dislike the principals of capitalism, and what it is based on. If you don't base a political system on ideology to start off with, how do you expect it to miracously develop a conscience? The idea of communism is that it is based fundamentally on ethics of labour and need, capitalism on the other hand is based on the ideal of profit. Profit of course is an inanimate, non-human, entirely scientific entity, which has nothing to do with people's needs or wants.

Guest
22nd June 2002, 16:23
Divet, change your avatar, we need to login to see it.

dailydivet
22nd June 2002, 22:12
Sorry about the Avatar problem, it has been fixed.

Stormin Norman
22nd June 2002, 22:40
Daily Divet,

Trust me, I know the feeling, for I too am a laisse fair kind of guy. It is the political system that is corrupting the market, not the market that is corrupting politics.

Angie,

Thanks for demonstrating my point. Lynn Cheney is alright. I am glad someone is documenting the ridiculous things being said in colleges everywhere.

Angie
24th June 2002, 13:49
Whatever you reckon. :)