Capitalism aways existed myth

[Psy]

Why does so many people still believed that capitalism existed all the way back to tribes? When ever I challenge this, so many people don't even have a logical definition of capitalism on top of that have a pathetic understanding of ancient history.

Their logic is:
Property existed in hunter&gather tribes, anything with property = capitalism thus capitalism always existed.

Meaning in their head, since a hunter owned the carcass of their kill this was capitalism.

This is annoying as now one has to booth explain that in hunter and gather societies the hunter only got the choice part of the carcass as did influencial members of the tribe. Then you have to explain capitalism doesn't mean property but is a relationship to production based on class, where one class owns the means of production but doesn't work while the other is exact opposite in they don't own the means of production but work it.

Then explain hunter and gathers societies were not capitalist societies as the hunter was not working for a wage but for a chunk of the end product (in the case of the hunter food), where his surplus went to the rest of the village.

It seem the vast majority people that support capitalism does so under shear ignorance of what capitalism is.

[bezdomni]

Capitalism requires industrialization and the production line, which is obviously a fairly recent dynamic.

No intelligent person, regardless of political ideology, would make that claim.

[chegitz guevara]

If capitalism were honest about itself, people wouldn't put up with it, would they?

[Psy]

Capitalism requires industrialization and the production line, which is obviously a fairly recent dynamic.

No intelligent person, regardless of political ideology, would make that claim.
They do, you have people claiming God created capitalism when he created Adam and Eve and has existed since the beginning of man. They of course state capitalism simply means the ability to own property and anti-capitalists are those against the ability to own property.

[chegitz guevara]

Capitalism requires industrialization and the production line, which is obviously a fairly recent dynamic.

No intelligent person, regardless of political ideology, would make that claim.

You don't interact with real people much, do you?

[Marsella]

I've never met anyone who claimed that capitalism has always existed. :confused:

[Black Cross]

You don't interact with real people much, do you?

He did say "intelligent" people. He wasn't saying that morons would never make these claims.

[shorelinetrance]

Jesus, why bother with imbeciles like that, if someone said that to me i would just facepalm and slowly back away and hope stupidity isn't as contagious as everyone says it is.

[Luís Henrique]

Capitalism requires industrialization and the production line, which is obviously a fairly recent dynamic.

Erm, no, it requires total separation between workers and means of production, something that is achieved in pre-industrial manufacture.


No intelligent person, regardless of political ideology, would make that claim.

I hope they wouldn't, but they really do. Even if it isn't in a blunt way, people generally read capitalist categories back into pre-capitalist societies.

Luís Henrique

[shorelinetrance]

Erm, no, it requires total separation between workers and means of production, something that is achieved in pre-industrial manufacture.

I think you misunderstood what he meant by "recent".

[Psy]

Jesus, why bother with imbeciles like that, if someone said that to me i would just facepalm and slowly back away and hope stupidity isn't as contagious as everyone says it is.

The school system propagates this crap, so they are educated imbeciles :)

[shorelinetrance]

The school system propagates this crap, so they are educated imbeciles :)

obviously, current eduction is just another means to keep the docile masses from even thinking about questioning the way things "are", i was looking through a highschool textbook and they said cuba and china were a communist state (:rolleyes:) also western education system is basic indoctrination into a capitalist system, insert human into free school = profit for the capital, it's really rather ingenious.

[Red_or_Dead]

i was looking through a highschool textbook and they said cuba and china were a communist state

Yeah, the term "communist state" is really being thrown around waaaay too much. Specialy for something that cannot even exist.

But, in any case, I agree with what others have said. Strange that even cappies themselves dont know what they are in favour of.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I think people who make this claim are referencing civilization, and mistake capitalism for being the same thing as markets.

[Psy]

Yeah, the term "communist state" is really being thrown around waaaay too much. Specialy for something that cannot even exist.

But, in any case, I agree with what others have said. Strange that even cappies themselves dont know what they are in favour of.


I think it is in purpose, by defining capitalism as property they make communism anti-property, suggesting the shortages in the USSR was on purpose because we don't want people to have stuff.

This is another myth I run across that is perpetuated by the school system, quote the Communist manifesto that communism doesn't deprive anyone the power to appropriate the products of society, all it does is deprive the power to subjugate labor of others through such appropriation and they act like I'm the stupid one since of course the educational system has to have a better grasp of what communism is then the communist manifesto :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Do you live in the US by a chance?

[Red_or_Dead]

I think it is in purpose, by defining capitalism as property they make communism anti-property, suggesting the shortages in the USSR was on purpose because we don't want people to have stuff.


Purpose... Maybe. But I think it has more to do with mere ignorance, fueled by the situation (real or percieved) in former (or the ones still existing) "communist" states. I dont think that there really is any purpose to it.


This is another myth I run across that is perpetuated by the school system, quote the Communist manifesto that communism doesn't deprive anyone the power to appropriate the products of society, all it does is deprive the power to subjugate labor of others through such appropriation and they act like I'm the stupid one since of course the educational system has to have a better grasp of what communism is then the communist manifesto :rolleyes:

Heh, how typical can it get?


One thing that I come across is mixing private property with personal. I guess that the myth of us not wanting anyone to have anything comes from there.

[Psy]

Do you live in the US by a chance?
Canada actually but I know a lot of Americans, the Canadian educational system is no better in describing Capitalism or Communism.

[Psy]

Purpose... Maybe. But I think it has more to do with mere ignorance, fueled by the situation (real or percieved) in former (or the ones still existing) "communist" states. I dont think that there really is any purpose to it.

It is not even the so called "communist" states, when I was in High School and there were going into feudalism they completely left out class conflict. They talked like all these classes existed in a vacume from each other. They focused on what Monarchs did acting like everything that happened in these feudal orders revolved around them, making them appear more like a simple dictatorship.

I also remeber them going into deep detail about how democratic ancient Athens was while being able to completely omit slavery existed in Athens and the slaves didn't get vote.




One thing that I come across is mixing private property with personal. I guess that the myth of us not wanting anyone to have anything comes from there.

Yhea but again this myth is perpetuated by schools, that describe capitalist economist along the lines of personal property (saying the factory is owned by the capitalist just like how you own your TV)

[Fedorov]

The school system propagates this crap, so they are educated imbeciles http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif

I'm currently a senior in a US high school and and I am lucky enough to get a very intelligent teacher that just got a doctorate and has a solid understanding of marxism. The vast majority of people are politically ignorant and sadly the same goes for teachers. Just out of curiosity what grade are you in, because from my experience the least intelligent pedagogues are found in middle school.

[Psy]

I'm currently a senior in a US high school and and I am lucky enough to get a very intelligent teacher that just got a doctorate and has a solid understanding of marxism. The vast majority of people are politically ignorant and sadly the same goes for teachers. Just out of curiosity what grade are you in, because from my experience the least intelligent pedagogues are found in middle school.

Actually I'm in the work force and yes the ignorance clings to some even after school. This causes a clash between the cynical, radical and ignorant worker.

The ignorant worker thinks hard work and determination will pay off, that aspire to be management and think they have a decent shot at it. The cynical worker doesn't believe in anything, they understand they are exploited but are also cynical toward radical ideas thus cynical toward radical workers.

[Fedorov]

The ignorant worker thinks hard work and determination will pay off, that aspire to be management and think they have a decent shot at it. The cynical worker doesn't believe in anything, they understand they are exploited but are also cynical toward radical ideas thus cynical toward radical workers.

Thats a bit of an oversimplification on the matter. I think that everyone realizes that the current system has flaws but are either well off enough or distracted by other things such as media. Religion was called the opiate of the masses for a reason and now I think media has usurped that role. Quite frankly most people have an apathy for the system and others and this leads them to keep on living ignorant.

[Psy]

Thats a bit of an oversimplification on the matter. I think that everyone realizes that the current system has flaws but are either well off enough or distracted by other things such as media. Religion was called the opiate of the masses for a reason and now I think media has usurped that role. Quite frankly most people have an apathy for the system and others and this leads them to keep on living ignorant.
You have to remeber workers do have time to reflect the plight during their breaks, this is usually when workers hear about gossip regarding their workplace.

Yet since the vast majority are cynical, they don't do anything as they are cynical to ideas of change as well.

[Red_or_Dead]

It is not even the so called "communist" states, when I was in High School and there were going into feudalism they completely left out class conflict. They talked like all these classes existed in a vacume from each other. They focused on what Monarchs did acting like everything that happened in these feudal orders revolved around them, making them appear more like a simple dictatorship.


Thats strange. We were told a great deal about feudalism (within the history of our nation), and I think it was pretty much what it should be. Like how landlords overtaxed peasants so they could fight one another, then the peasnt revolts ect. Even tho the phrase "class struggle" was never mentioned, the subject was touched upon many times.

That was a few years ago, tho, and I guess thats one of the remnants of socialism that (thank goodness) still persist in our textbooks.


I also remeber them going into deep detail about how democratic ancient Athens was while being able to completely omit slavery existed in Athens and the slaves didn't get vote.


As far as Athens go, they are being thrown around today as the begining of democracy and everything, as if the whole western world has in some way or another started there, disregarding the fact that the western world was a feudal-theocratic shithole less than 200 years ago, and that Athens werent all that democratic either.


Quite frankly most people have an apathy for the system and others and this leads them to keep on living ignorant.

I think that apathy is one of the greatest enemies that we face today. To many people watch politics as if it were a sport, where you just pick your team and vote for them every four years.

[Psy]

Thats strange. We were told a great deal about feudalism (within the history of our nation), and I think it was pretty much what it should be. Like how landlords overtaxed peasants so they could fight one another, then the peasnt revolts ect. Even tho the phrase "class struggle" was never mentioned, the subject was touched upon many times.

The school system seemed more gear toward teaching trivialities, thus teaching the feudal class hierarchy is important, teaching how the classes interacted with each other was seen as important.



As far as Athens go, they are being thrown around today as the begining of democracy and everything, as if the whole western world has in some way or another started there, disregarding the fact that the western world was a feudal-theocratic shithole less than 200 years ago, and that Athens werent all that democratic either.

Hell, they talked like Athens was some kind of democratic commune in a world of backward ignorance, yet when we got to the the Paris commune they talked like they were just misguided rabble, and didn't paint the French revolution in a positive light either, ie the novel Scarlet Pimpernel being required reading. Yes the school system painted the French aristocracy as the good guys of the French revolution.

[Fedorov]

Hell, they talked like Athens was some kind of democratic commune in a world of backward ignorance, yet when we got to the the Paris commune they talked like they were just misguided rabble, and didn't paint the French revolution in a positive light either, ie the novel Scarlet Pimpernel being required reading. Yes the school system painted the French aristocracy as the good guys of the French revolution. http://img.revleft.com/revleft/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1119049)

It is a way of showing how the American revolution is superior. Of course its easy to buy that they ended up chopping everyones heads off due to an inherent flaw in their constitution or plainly not being American enough. Its less an attack on marxism than some of the other thought that developed parallel to "Americanism". On the other note I think Monty Python made a funny sketch on the Pimpernel (making fun of him). Its rather reminiscent of the old Tsarists that still exist in New York, at least their kids.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Why does so many people still believed that capitalism existed all the way back to tribes? When ever I challenge this, so many people don't even have a logical definition of capitalism on top of that have a pathetic understanding of ancient history.

Their logic is:
Property existed in hunter&gather tribes, anything with property = capitalism thus capitalism always existed.

Meaning in their head, since a hunter owned the carcass of their kill this was capitalism.

This is annoying as now one has to booth explain that in hunter and gather societies the hunter only got the choice part of the carcass as did influencial members of the tribe. Then you have to explain capitalism doesn't mean property but is a relationship to production based on class, where one class owns the means of production but doesn't work while the other is exact opposite in they don't own the means of production but work it.

Then explain hunter and gathers societies were not capitalist societies as the hunter was not working for a wage but for a chunk of the end product (in the case of the hunter food), where his surplus went to the rest of the village.

It seem the vast majority people that support capitalism does so under shear ignorance of what capitalism is.

Your use of the hunter-gatherer analogy is excellent, I'm a fan of the hunter-gatherers myself so well-done.

[Psy]

It is a way of showing how the American revolution is superior. Of course its easy to buy that they ended up chopping everyones heads off due to an inherent flaw in their constitution or plainly not being American enough. Its less an attack on marxism than some of the other thought that developed parallel to "Americanism". On the other note I think Monty Python made a funny sketch on the Pimpernel (making fun of him). Its rather reminiscent of the old Tsarists that still exist in New York, at least their kids.

Well where do you think the institutionalized education fits in the class system? It is a branch of the government and the curriculum is decided not by teachers but managers very close to to the government. Schools are in the pay of the ruling class so it not far fetched to see the school system as a mouth piece for the ruling class.

I think the ruling class simply doesn't want paint any mass movement in a positive light, the US revolution is safe as it was a bourgeoisie revolution with key figures being land owners (except Thomas Paine that mostly get footnote treatment).

[Fedorov]

Well where do you think the institutionalized education fits in the class system? It is a branch of the government and the curriculum is decided not by teachers but managers very close to to the government. Schools are in the pay of the ruling class so it not far fetched to see the school system as a mouth piece for the ruling class.

I think the ruling class simply doesn't want paint any mass movement in a positive light, the US revolution is safe as it was a bourgeoisie revolution with key figures being land owners (except Thomas Paine that mostly get footnote treatment). http://img.revleft.com/revleft/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1119653)

Nothing that I don't really disagree with. :) Its debunked!