Pictures off the dead in jenin - don't go on this if you've

[James]

www.iacenter.org/jenin_photos.htm

If you find the first page gross, DO NOT GO ON PAGE 2.

James

(p.s. I don't recomend that everyone goes on here, especially the younger members.)

[Thine Stalin]

I recieved emails from Fathi Tobail part of the PLO front, he told me to forward, but damn, they're such huge attachments! Anyway, they were pretty horrible too, I got a few political cartoons from him, if anyone wants me to forward emails from him to me to you, please tell me your email. He appreciates supporters world wide. So.. if you want any, just send me a email asking. But beware, they kill your inbox so you'll want to delete after you see them.

[Felicia]

Oh my god. I have never seen anything so desturbing in my life. Isn't this supposed to be what we are fighting against? Against torture and injustice? Many of the pictures where of children, what sort of sick bastird would do something like this. I think that I'm getting extremely angry right now, I have to go. Did the U$ support these actions? If so I say we should print these images and post them around Washington, to show the people what their gov't is condoning. :(

[James]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/mid...000/1963214.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1963000/1963214.stm)

think thats the url where i got this upcoming article from;

UN abandons Jenin probe


Houses were reduced to rubble in the army offensive

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has confirmed that he intends to disband the planned fact-finding mission into what happened at the Jenin refugee camp during the recent Israeli offensive.
The move follows days of wrangling and delays to the mission after Israel raised a series of objections to its mandate.

Jenin
Israel: Says it killed 52 people, mainly gunmen, in pitched battles, losing 23 of its own soldiers
Palestinians: Say hundreds of civilians were massacred
British military expert: Believes Israel's casualty estimate closer to the truth but detects evidence of other war crimes

The Palestinians allege that a massacre took place at the camp during the week-long assault there - something Israel denies.

In a letter to the 15-member body, Kofi Annan said he intended to disband the UN mission on Thursday. The letter was delivered as the Council began to discuss the issue.

With US backing, the Council had already appointed former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari to lead the 20-member mission. He and his team had gathered in Geneva waiting to be given the go-ahead.

Truth unknown

Announcing the decision Mr Annan said he regretted that abandoning the mission meant "the long shadow cast by recent events in the Jenin refugee camp will remain."

He also warned that with the situation in the West Bank constantly changing, "it will become more and more difficult to establish with any confidence or accuracy the recent events that took place there".


Sharon insists Israel has nothing to hide


When the plan for the mission was first mooted Israel had welcomed the idea, insisting it had nothing to hide.

But there was soon a change of heart, with Israel demanding changes in both the team's make-up and terms of reference.

Speaking on ABC television's "Nightline" on Wednesday Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon rejected allegations that his government were trying to hide a massacre.

"We do not have anything to hide. The Israeli armed forces have got very high values," he said.

Bias accusations

He also accused the UN of anti-Israeli bias. "I never saw that the United Nations was so determined to send fact-finding commission to other places," he said.

"They didn't send to see what happened in the Passover Eve when 28 people were killed," he added, referring to a suicide bombing in the Israeli city of Netanya.


Israel claims Jenin was a hotbed of terrorist activity


In Washington, the Bush administration expressed regret over the abandoning of the mission.

"The US and other UN Security Council members worked to facilitate an agreement concerning Secretary-General Annan's initiative. We regret that it did not work out," said Sean McCormack, spokesman for the White House National Security Council.

[James]

We do not have anything to hide

The why did he block the UN?

Why, more importantly, did the UN not go in there?

If this had happened in Iraq, Syria, etc etc the UN would have jumped in there. But not with israel. Double standards suck.

[Supermodel]

James, I'm sitting here with tears streaming down my face.

[Fires of History]

James,

Thank you for that. Every single person I know online will get this link. No wonder Israel didn't want the UN investigating Jenin.

Nothing to see here, nothing to see. Yeah right. Israel is going to do everything they can to stop the world from seeing what is really going on. He he he, but that's not working as they planned :)

May the Palestinians have their own military soon.

[Xvall]

Yeah, James. That's stuffs just annoying.. Unfortunately, you get used to pictures like those. This in now how I expected my life to be at age fifteen, but whatever. Yes, it is important for people to see those. Unfortunately thay can't get it through their THICK skulls that Israel is NOT a land of freedom and sincerity. They don't get the point that people ARE being killed in this, and the idiots in charge aren't doing a thing abot it.

[James]

am i being thanked or told off?

[James]

i repeat, for those who are reading this and havn't loaded the link up yet (or what ever). DON'T GO ON SECOND PAGE.

[James]

1312 Palestinians killed (Shuhada) by HDIP
September 28th 2000 and 26th March 2002

Month # %
2001 -
1 Sep 28th - Oct 27th 140 10.7
2 Oct 28th - Nov 27th 127 9.7
3 Nov 28th - Dec 27th 65 5.0
4 Dec 28th - Jan 27th 25 1.9
5 Jan 28th - Feb 27th 29 2.2
6 Feb 28th - Mar 27th 24 1.8
7 Mar 28th - Apr 27th 46 3.5
8 Apr 28th - May 27th 62 4.7
9 May 28th - Jun 27th 30 2.3
10 Jun 28th - Jul 27th 38 2.9
11 Jul 28th - Aug 27th 58 4.4
12 Aug 28th - Sep 27th 65 5.0
13 Sep 28th - Oct 27th 97 7.4
14 Oct 28th - Nov 27th 54 4.1
15 Nov 28th - Dec 27th 76 5.8
- 2002
16 Dec 28th - Jan 27th 38
2.9

17
Jan 28th - Feb 27th 90 6.9
18
Feb 28th - March 26th 248 18.9
Total
1312
100.0




Age Distribution
# %
15 yrs old or younger 155 11.7
16 - 18 yrs 139 10.6
19 - 29 yrs 673 51.3
30 - 39 yrs 175 13.3
40 - 49 yrs 68 5.2
50+ years 73 5.6



Sex # %
Male 1243 94.7
female 66 5.0



Immediate Cause of Death # %
Live ammunition* 796 60.7
Shelling** 303 22.9
Rubber-coated metal bullets 3 0.2
Prevention of medical treatment 36 2.7
Tear gas 10 0.2
Other*** 136 10.4

* Includes 5.56mm (223 caliber) bullets, 7.02mm bullets, 9mm bullets, 50 caliber bullets, 500mmbullets, 800mm bullets.
* * Includes tank fire, bombs, missiles from helicopter, and F-16.
* * * Includes explosions, being hit by car or stabbed, or having a heart attack after being attacked.

Site of Body Injury* # %
Head and neck (Including 10 from behind) 337 25.7
Chest (Including 24 from behind) 240 18.6
Abdomen 62
4.8
All over body 513 39.1
Lower limb 8 0.6
Unknown/unspecified 93 7.2

* Includes deaths from shelling, live ammunition, and rubber-coated bullets.

Perpetrators # %
Israeli soldiers 1122 85.9
Israeli settlers 45 3.5
Israeli police / citizens 26 2.0
Other 97 7.4



# %
Civilian 1101 83.9
Member of Palestinian National Security Forces 211 16.1

[Needssomeconvincing]

That stuff is really sick.

[marxistdisciple]

The are the most disgusting pictures I have seen in my life....what kind of people can deny these things happening?? These are evil, evil people...

[Xvall]

I'm not yelling at ya James. People need to see these, instead of living in this dream world "everyone will bo alright" state..

[guerrillaradio]

They are truly disturbing. However, I feel I must ask where the evidence that these are Palestinians in Jenin is. The camera does lie, and it is quite possible that they have been twisted. I still feel that a full investigation of Jenin is required plus some kinda restraint exercised on (rather than by) the Israelis. How that is to be achieved is beyond me though...

[anti machine]

THAT PISSES THE FUCKING SHIT OUTTA ME! My god, i wanna kill somebody for that! Is no one being held responsible for this?!? Every last one of those mother fuckers that did that deserve death. My god, lining them up and then shooting them one by one? Someone needs to DO something about this!

[Xvall]

Calm down.. I don't know if they were shot.. It's not Nazi Germany, yet.. They seemed to have been detained, although it is a probability that they were shot.. Then again, no one knew what Hitler was doing..

[Guest]

Not convincing. They definitely do not prove that a massacre was committed in Jenin. These photos seemed to be posted with a bias. Why not show the results of the homocide bombings? If they did show the damage that the PLO and Hamas has done to Israel, would your hearts still bleed for the dead?
Remember, the areas afflicted by the Israeli army are strong holds for the resistance movement which attempts to send suicide bombers into Israel, on a daily basis. If the people of Palestine would quit supporting leaders who support terrorism, then the Israelis would cease military operations. Arafat needs to be ousted, and replaced by a leader is more concerned with the peace process. Recall, that the Palestinians have targeted Israeli civilians. Do you expect them to sit back and let an opposing force over run them? The Israelis could lay that entire area to waste. They have shown great restaint in their operations by not sending in F-15's to dismantle what's left of the Palestinian infrastructure. Why haven't they killed Arafat, they have had ample opportunity?

[James]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60

That site has the airial photos of the area wasted by the soldiers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the pics have lied a bit, but this shit is happening. Babies on BOTH sides are dying.

Its pointless pointing the blame at the palastinians. And its all tired out the old, "the people of Palestine would quit supporting leaders who support terrorism, then the Israelis would cease military operations"

All i was posting was what happened in jenin.

These actions would have angered people to blow themselves up...etc etc
= a cycle of hate.

James

[Guest]

Hey James,

Have you read my rebuttal of anarchist philosophy under "Totalitarianism"? I wrote it for you specifically, after you referred me to an anarchist web site. Have you started reading "The Federalist Paper's"?

[James]

i hadn't, i'll go read your post now...

"Have you started reading "The Federalist Paper's"?"

huh?

[Guest]

Hey, how can you deny that? it is like denying the holocaust. But i'm sure you say Stalin killed like 40 million people right?

I heard that the Israelis claim that the Palestinians put lots of dead bodies there to make it look like a massacre!!

Are they running out of excuses or what?

[Guest]

Where is the proof? Arafat, himself, has denied that there was a massacre. Many U.S. diplomats have also visited the site and stated that it is consistent with a fire fight, not a mass murder. The U.N. has also dropped the inquiry. You are buying into Palestinian propaganda, which is crude and only accepted by the weakest minds. I sure don't see the evidence in those pictures.

[Goldfinger]

If George Bush has seen these pictures, but still don't react, he must be a psycopat. But they are very intelligent, and Bush isn't, so most likely he doesn't know what's going on.

You can't judge a place you've never been to, but it seems you can have part of the population murdered. :confused:

[Lefty]

i just vomited. I recall Drake put up pictures like these once, and one was of a girl, maybe 8, with 3/4 of a head. And she looked like my sister. I can say that was the moment i became opposed to the U.S. bombing in Afghanistan, and everywhere, and the U.S. in generall. I am now sickened at the world... Ugh

[Apache]

Is this a contest about who can produce the most disturbing pictures?
Take a look at the suicide bombings carried out by your Palestinian heroes.

What, actually, are the possible futures for the Palestinians? I think the following list is exhaustive.

1. An independent state, under Arafat or someone just as thuggish.
2. Military occupation by Israel.
3. Re-incorporation into a Jordanian-Palestinian nation.
4. Some sort of U.N. trusteeship.
5. Expulsion from the West Bank and Gaza, those territories then incorporated into Israel.

Number 1 is what we are all supposed to want. I don't want it, and I can't see why anyone else would, either. Except Palestinians, I suppose: If they yearn to be ruled by amoral hoodlums (as, according to polls, they apparently do), I suppose they have some theoretical right to see their wishes fulfilled — but why should the rest of us allow it to happen, given the dangers to us? Number 2 might work for a time, but the Israelis would eventually get fed up with it, and then we'd move on to one of the other options. Number 3 would get us back to the pseudo-stability of pre-1967, but is deeply unpopular with Jordanians — and look what happened in 1967! Number 4 undoubtedly has the UNRWA bureaucrats drooling, but as with number 1, it's hard to see what's in it for the rest of us. Aren't we handing over enough of our money in welfare payments to our own people?

Which leaves us with number 5: expulsion. I am starting to think that this might be the best option. I'm not the only one, either. Here is Dick Armey, Republican leader in the U.S. House of Representatives, talking to Chris Matthews on Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Well, just to repeat, you believe that the Palestinians who are now living on the West Bank should get out of there?

Rep. ARMEY: Yes.

When I say "the best option," I don't mean "best for the Palestinians". I don't think they have any good options. Being Arabs, they are incapable of constructing a rational polity, so their future is probably hopeless whatever happens. Their options are the ones I listed above: to be ruled by gangsters, or Israelis, or Jordanians, or welfare bureaucrats. Or to go live somewhere else, under the gentle rule of their brother Arabs. Would expulsion be hard on the Palestinians? I suppose it would. Would it be any harder than options 1 thru 4? I doubt it. Do I really give a flying falafel one way or the other? No, not really.

[Guest]

I'm seen pictures like this before. It hurts me every time I see them. I can only feel sad...and pissed off that people are still BLOWING and SHOOTING each other up in the name of religion...and whatever else. Defense is one thing...but these pictures are showing childen and women...

IN WAR, NOBODY WINS!

But lets keep in mind that both sides are committing murder here over religion, and politics! These pictures should illustrate to us that WAR is evil!

[James]

Hey Apache, i'm no taking sides, because both have done really bad things.

However both sides are getting civillians murdered, inoocent civilians. Be it an Israeli or palestinian.

However, you won't see much on the news in the west or anything about palestinians being killed, because the media is so biased. All i was doing was evening it out etc.

In my own opinion, palestian should be given its own state, etc etc etc. I'm sure Arafat will die soon, then this will be possible. But only if Sharon gets out of power too.

[Apache]

James, I agree wholeheartedly that war and suffering is about as bad as it can get on this planet.
We also need to realize that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority have been used by the entire Arab community in that region as a means for the destruction of the state of Israel. Now that they realize that objective can not be achieved with military force, they have switched tactics to one of terror. This is what is fueling the atrocities that we see in these pictures.
Everybody is forgetting that the PLO was created in 1964, three years BEFORE the west bank and the Gaza strip were lost to Israel in wars of aggression that the Arab countries started.
Everybody is also forgetting the atrocities that were committed by the Jordanian government against the "Palestinians" in 1970. This was due to Arafat's efforts to destabilize the country of Jordan in an attempt to seize power.
Next, the PLO takes up residence in Lebanon and fuels a civil war that claims over 100,000 lives on both sides and ultimately allows Syria to turn Lebanon into a puppet government with another 20,000 dead since they took power in that country.
I don't see Sharon as an alter boy but he will look like one when Benjamin Netanyahu wins the next election.
Jordan, Egypt and Syria created this monster, it is time they paid the price to put it back into its cage.

[IrishRepublican]

James thank you for supplying me with that link because we're talking about all this United Nations Declaration Of Human Rights shit.. my teacher are making them out to be heros..

But with pictures like that you can expose the unite nations... they just stood back and to nothing, didnt they?

The world thinks they are there to protet and serve, personnaly i think its set up to protect white people.

[Apache]

Quote: from IrishRepublican on 5:02 am on June 23, 2002
But with pictures like that you can expose the unite nations... they just stood back and to nothing, didn't they?

The world thinks they are there to protect and serve, personally i think its set up to protect white people.

The UN just bent over backwards to protect all of the "White People" in Northern Ireland, didn't they?
The UN also did a great job of preventing the PLO from turning Jenin in to a bomb factory for terrorists.

[James]

James thank you for supplying me with that link because we're talking about all this United Nations Declaration Of Human Rights shit.. my teacher are making them out to be heros..

No problem mate, also look into how they can be classed as being terrorists in Iraq, in that whole oil for food thing or what ever its called. Basically the simplist of things arn't allowed into iraq, they argue that they could be used in bombs, but really, how can one of the biggest apperances on the list of "withheld" items be used in a bomb (a wheel barrow). They state of iraq has declined to one of the highest literate rates etc to the lowest, and its infant mortality rates, death rate, age of death etc etc has increased.

All because stuff can be used in "bombs". Yeah, like wheat...


they just stood back and to nothing


Israel said no to the UN, so what could they do? entering by force would have split the union and many world relations.



The world thinks they are there to protet and serve, personnaly i think its set up to protect white people.

I support the idea of an EU, but i don't support alot of the shit that happens in the reality one.

I'd say that they do try and serve the masses, but their first priority is the people living in EU states...and political ties.

(Edited by James at 8:28 pm on June 23, 2002)

[James]

Oh yeah, appache, i must state that i agreed with alot of what you said;


James, I agree wholeheartedly that war and suffering is about as bad as it can get on this planet.
We also need to realize that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority have been used by the entire Arab community in that region as a means for the destruction of the state of Israel. Now that they realize that objective can not be achieved with military force, they have switched tactics to one of terror. This is what is fueling the atrocities that we see in these pictures.
Everybody is forgetting that the PLO was created in 1964, three years BEFORE the west bank and the Gaza strip were lost to Israel in wars of aggression that the Arab countries started.
Everybody is also forgetting the atrocities that were committed by the Jordanian government against the "Palestinians" in 1970. This was due to Arafat's efforts to destabilize the country of Jordan in an attempt to seize power.
Next, the PLO takes up residence in Lebanon and fuels a civil war that claims over 100,000 lives on both sides and ultimately allows Syria to turn Lebanon into a puppet government with another 20,000 dead since they took power in that country.
I don't see Sharon as an alter boy but he will look like one when Benjamin Netanyahu wins the next election.
Jordan, Egypt and Syria created this monster, it is time they paid the price to put it back into its cage.

Of course there are little bits that i don't agree with, but on the whole i agree. But you must ask, what other options are open to the palestinians? They are denied the right to return to their home (which brakes UN law), and are treated like lower people.

But i think that groups should be stopped in this sense. An agreemnet should be made, but alas, an agreement was made between Arafat and the old leader of (whats that group called...) but israeli agents assassinated the guy.

Both leaders need to be ousted.

[James]

EU Slams U.S. Threat to World War Crimes Court


BRUSSELS - The European Union has attacked United States efforts to undermine a global war crimes court which came into existence in April despite Washington's opposition.

In a statement issued after a meeting in Luxembourg late on Monday, EU foreign ministers severely criticized the draft American Servicemembers' Protection Act, which seeks to guarantee that U.S. soldiers could never face trial before the International Criminal Court.

The 15-nation bloc expressed concern that the bill, being considered by Congress, would restrict U.S. participation in U.N. peacekeeping operations, prohibit the transfer of evidence to the court and bar U.S. military assistance to parties to the tribunal.

"These provisions could seriously undermine the work of the ICC," they said.

"The Council is particularly concerned about the current provision authorizing the President to use all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any person who is being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the ICC, including on the territory of EU member states."

The new court, which has yet to sit, will be based in The Hague. Created by a U.N. treaty negotiated in Rome in 1998, it is meant to try the most heinous war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity.

The United States voted against the court's statute, largely because it wanted exemptions for its own personnel and demanded that the U.N. Security Council determine who should or should not be prosecuted in the tribunal.

Former President Bill Clinton signed the statute shortly before leaving office in January 2001, but the Republican administration of President Bush withdrew that signature and has vowed to oppose the court.

In its latest move, the Bush administration is trying to get the U.N. Security Council to exclude all peacekeeping operations from the tribunal's jurisdiction, diplomats in New York said on Monday.

Copyright 2002 Reuters Ltd

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0618-04.htm


(Edited by James at 8:46 pm on June 23, 2002)

[James]

and that my friends is why the EU ROCKS!!!

[Apache]

Oh yeah, appache, i must state that i agreed with alot of what you said;
You may want to edit that before they cancel your membership. :)
Ultimately there will have to be some form of separation between these two people.
I also don't believe that Mossad agents took out Yitzhak Rabin. If they were going to kill anyone it would have been Ehud Barak. He is the right's worst nightmare.

[Apache]

Quote: from James on 12:48 pm on June 23, 2002
and that my friends is why the EU ROCKS!!!

The real reason is that The US does not want the excuse of "War Crime" to be used by countries that have a grudge against The US (most people here for example) to settle scores.
In example of "real" war crimes, the US has dealt with our soldiers in the past.
If you wanted to be really cynical, you could say that we are doing this to avoid prosecution for some really horrendous things that we have in store for other people.
This argument is pretty silly too. If we are going to go totally evil and commit some serious cases of genocide, would we care about a "war crimes" tribunal?
No way, if we are genocidal maniacs.

[James]

the fact is, we all have to be equal. What makes the U$ so special that they become above the law? Thats why i think that article is good.

Also i suppose i'm a strong supporter of the EU because as soon as the coutries that have applied, join, we will have a similar out put as the U$, thus making the U$ not such a super power. In my personal opinion, i think that the U$ is old fashioned, it came about big time during the 20's etc. Its methods are old, and its had its time. I think the EU will take its place as superpower, and will make a far better job of it, it being far more democratic and multi cultured.

[Apache]

It is not really a case of the US being above the law. It is more along the lines that we don't want the law perverted to twist our arm to serve an unrelated agenda.

[James]

I can see where you are coming from, but i don't think you understand me.

America must follow the rules. Like everyone else.

Otherwise whats the point in being friendly with them if they are just going to treat us like shit?

[Apache]

Quote: from James on 1:46 pm on June 23, 2002
I can see where you are coming from, but i don't think you understand me.

America must follow the rules. Like everyone else.

Otherwise whats the point in being friendly with them if they are just going to treat us like shit?
Contrary to popular belief on this BBS, the US usually does about the same job of following the rules as any Western European country.
I really don't see us brutalizing Canada or The UK or using Mexico as a chemical weapons lab or threatening to use nukes on Sweden.
Really, if we are so wicked and wanted to start-***** slapping other countries around, there is little to stop us.
The United States is a favorite Bogey-Man for most of the rest of the world. It is easy for a leader to explain away really bad or corrupt government policies by blaming The US and not taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm not saying that we are Sunday school teachers but we are far from Godzilla either.
If you notice, it is the MOST screwed up countries with the most oppressive regimes, that scream the loudest.
And no, we did not install most of them either.

[Stormin Norman]

The U.S. is a sovreign nation. It is the first nation since the Greeks to implement democratic rule. Our experiment with freedom has shown the rest of the world what is possible. The U.N. has no legal right to rule on laws that govern the U.S.. Any of our leaders who advocate world government should be deemed enemies of the state, since by allowing the United Nations to usurp power in U.S. jurisdiction is an act which remains unconstitutional. Our constitution and Bill of Rights are sacred documents that guarantee the right of the people, especially when it comes to governing the affairs within our own borders and in making foreign policy. Expunge the U.N. from the world it subjugates the right of sovreign nations to govern themselves. It is Hitler's wet dream for world domination

[James]

Expunge the U.N. from the world it subjugates the right of sovreign nations to govern themselves. It is Hitler's wet dream for world domination

Sinse the EU was formed there has been no wars between its members. This is good surely. Its not world domination, its putting countries closer together.

[Apache]

Quote: from James on 1:08 am on June 24, 2002

Expunge the U.N. from the world it subjugates the right of sovreign nations to govern themselves. It is Hitler's wet dream for world domination

Sinse the EU was formed there has been no wars between its members. This is good surely. Its not world domination, its putting countries closer together.

I think that had MUCH more to do with The US and The USSR keeping their client staes in-line and behaving well.

[Reuben]

apache, i suppose that guatamala 1954, chile 1973, the us backing of Batista, America training gurrillas to fight the democratic sandanista was America showing its democratic example to the rest of the world.

[James]

I think that had MUCH more to do with The US and The USSR keeping their client staes in-line and behaving well.

ahem, i said between its members. Meaing no wars in europe.