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abbielives!
7th April 2008, 05:46
The best damn analysis of primitivism I have ever read:



Civilization and its Latest Discontents
Review Article:
Against His-story, Against Leviathan! by Fredy Perlman (Detroit: Black & Red, 1983).
from Aufheben #4 (1995)

"I'm born in a certain age which has certain instruments of production and certain kinds of knowledge; I have the possibility to combine my ability with my knowledge, and can use the socially available means of production as instruments with which to realize an individual or collective project."
R. Gregoire & F. Perlman, 1969[1]
Civilization is under attack. A new critical current has emerged in recent years, united by an antagonism towards all tendencies that seem to include 'progress' as part of their programme. Perlman's book, described in the AK Distribution 1993 Catalogue as "One of the most significant and influential anarchic texts of the last few decades" (p. 30), is one of the key texts in this 'primitivist' current. In the U.S.A. and this country, it is in anarchist circles - particularly amongst those engaged in eco-struggles - that primitivism has become particularly popular. But Perlman used to be a Marxist (see the quote above), and he contributed usefully to the development of a libertarian version of Marx's theory for a number of years. The wholesale abandonment of Marx in favour of primitivism has touched the non-Leninist revolutionary milieu in this country too, with the recent conversion of Wildcat(UK)[2] to the anti-civilization position.
One direction that the primitivist current points in is the need to develop a critique of technology. This is something the old left cannot grasp, and is one of the reasons why it is unable to connect properly with tendencies toward communism. According to most varieties of leftism, technological progress and therefore economic growth will be of universal benefit so long as they are planned rationally; what prevents the full and rational development of the forces of production is the irrationality of the capitalist market. All this is reflected in the way leftists relate to the new struggles over technological 'progress', such as the anti-roads movement. Thus, while opportunists like the SWP treat these new struggles as valid only because they might be fertile grounds for recruitment to the 'real' struggle, leftists who are more openly traditional on this issue - such as the RCP - repeat the old claim that what the proles really want is more and better roads (so we can all get to work on time, perhaps!): a modern infrastructure is necessary for growth, and an expanding economy necessarily makes for a better quality of life.
The old project of simply taking over existing means of production was the creation of an era before capital had so thoroughly invested its own subjectivity in technology, design and the labour process. The technology that promises to liberate us in fact enslaves us by regulating our activities in and through work and leisure; machines and factories pollute our environments and destroy our bodies; their products offer us the image of real life instead of its substance. Now, more than ever, it is often more appropriate to smash existing means of production than merely manage them differently. We must therefore go beyond leftist notions of the neutrality of technology and problematize their definitions of progress.
The current anti-roads movement offers an example of a practical critique of progress - that is, one which contests dominant definitions of progress through physically disrupting their implementation. As we argued in our last issue, struggles such as that over the M11 link road in north-east London should be understood as part of the class struggle. This is often despite the ideas of those taking part, some of which echo Perlman's ideological critique of progress. In contrast to the practical critique, the ideological critique actively hinders an adequate critique of capitalism. Thus Perlman rejects unwanted leftist notions only through a retreat into a form of romantic quasi-anarchism which is unable to grasp the movement necessary to abolish capital. Given that Perlman is only one voice, however, the present article will use a review of his book as a springboard for a critique of other expressions of the new primitivist current.
The case against 'progress'
Perlman's book begins by distinguishing between a state of nature (harmony between humanity and the rest of nature) and civilization. Civilization began, not because everyone wanted to improve their conditions of existence, not because of 'material conditions', but because a small group of people imposed it on everyone else. Perlman traces the origin of civilization to the Sumerians, who, he says, felt obliged to build waterworks to ensure a regular supply of water. The Sumerians invested power to direct the building of the waterworks in one individual, who eventually became a powerful expert elite and then a warrior elite - the first ruling class, in effect. Under the direction of their ruling class, the Sumerians then waged war on their neighbours, eventually enslaving them. The rest of Perlman's book is taken up with the rest of world history, comprising the evolution of - and resistance to - various types of Leviathan (the name, taken from Hobbes, which Perlman uses for civilization, class society or the state), each of which takes in human beings as its living energy, is animated by them, and excretes them out as it decays, only to be replaced by yet another Leviathan. Leviathans fight with each other, but the winner is always Leviathan. Given that the opposition is between Leviathan and the oppressed majority, the differences between types of class society can therefore be largely glossed over.
Perlman appears to agree with Marx that what distinguishes civilization from primitive communism is the development of the means of production, which enabled surplus labour and thus the existence of a parasitic non-productive class. But the book challenges the traditional Marxist view by suggesting that in primitive communism there were already 'surpluses'.[3] If there was no problem with means of subsistence, then there could be no need to develop the means of production. The emergence of civilization is therefore comparable with the 'fall' from the Garden of Eden.
However, Perlman's claim that the ancient Sumerians felt obliged to introduce technological innovation suggests that primitive communism wasn't always so idyllic after all: the place where they were living was 'hellish'; they were intent on 'farming a jungle'; in the rainy season the floods carried off both their crops and their houses, while in the dry season their plants dried up and died.[4] This might suggest that population growth forced people to live in marginal lands, away from any surpluses. It also seems to conflict with Perlman's repeated claim that material conditions were not responsible for the development of technology and thus civilization; if lack of a regular water supply isn't a material condition, then what is? Similarly, the material condition of a growing population isn't discussed.[5] The social relations Perlman describes which accompany the new technology seem to be rather arbitrary. Much (the whole of history, in fact) seems to hinge on the decision made by the 'wise' [sic] Sumerian elders to appoint 'a strong young man' to be the 'supervisor' of the waterworks project. (So is chance to blame rather than the small minority?)
The writings of John Zerzan, such as his collection of essays Elements of Refusal,[6] seems to take Perlman's general argument further (back). Zerzan's writings are not orthodoxy within the new primitivist current, but they have been important in the American primitivist and eco-anarchist scenes in setting agendas for debate on issues such as agriculture. The whole problem in Zerzan's view may be summarized as follows: symbolization set in motion the series of horrors that is civilization's trajectory. Symbolization led to ideas of time, number, art and language which in turn led to agriculture. Religion gets the blame as well, being carried by language, and being one of the prime culprits for agriculture: food production is "at base ... a religious activity" (p. 70). But why is agriculture so bad? According to Zerzan, "captivity itself and every form of enslavement has agriculture as its progenitor or model" (p. 75). Therefore while Perlman might have wanted to defend existing primitive communities against encroaching capitalist development, Zerzan sees anyone using agriculture as already alienated and therefore not worth saving: even most tribal types wouldn't be pure enough for him. Similarly, permaculture is an aspiration of many primitivists, but, within Zerzan's vision, this too would be part of the problem since it is a method of production. His later work[7] has even dismissed hunter-gathering - since hunting leads to symbolism (and all the rest).
It might be easy to dismiss many of Perlman's and Zerzan's arguments as just half-baked idealism. They are not particularly original, and indeed might be said to be no more than vulgarizations of the ideas of Camatte (see below); if we are interested in theory, it might therefore be more appropriate to develop a critique of his work rather than theirs. However, Camatte is far less well known and far less influential than either Perlman or Zerzan. The fact that their ideas are becoming something of a material force - in the form of an increasing number of people engaged in struggle espousing primitivism - means that we have to take them seriously in their own right.
The modern context of primitivism
Ideas of a golden age and a rejection of civilization are nothing new. The Romantic Movement in bourgeois philosophy began with Rousseau, who eulogized unmediated relations with 'nature' and characterized 'industry' as evil. (Perlman quotes Rousseau approvingly.) But why has this old idea become so popular now?
It would seem no coincidence that anti-civilization ideas have blossomed in particular in the U.S.A. It is easy to see how such ideas can take hold in a place where there is still a recognizable wilderness which is currently being destroyed by production. The U.S.A. differs from Europe also in the fact that it lacks the long history of struggle that characterizes the transition from feudalism to capitalism (and the making of the proletariat). Instead, it has had the wholesale imposition of capitalism on indigenous cultures - a real genocide. Moreover, in recent years, the U.S.A. has also differed from Europe in the extent of the defeat of proletarian struggle over there.
Defeat brings pessimism, and when the current radical movement is on the decline, it may be easier to be radical about the past than to be radical in a practical way in the present.[8] In the biography of Perlman, we can trace a movement from hope in the proletariat as the liberatory force to a turn to nature and the past in the context of defeat. As a Marxist, Perlman was caught up in the events of 1968, where he discovered the texts and ideas of the Situationist International, anarchism and the Spanish Revolution, and council communism. Afterwards, however, on moving to the U.S.A., "[t]he shrinking arena for meaningful political activity in the early '70s led Fredy to see himself as less of an 'activist' and more as a rememberer."[9] Perlman's development is closely linked with that of Jacques Camatte, sometime comrade of the Italian left-communist Bordiga. Camatte broke with left-communist organizations partly due to his recognition of the need to go beyond their (objectivist) perspective and rethink Marx on the basis of the radical promise offered by such texts as the 'Results of the Immediate Process of Production'(The 'missing sixth chapter' of Capital, vol. I), the Grundrisse, and the 1844 Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts. However, Camatte eventually concluded that capital was in fact all powerful; given this, the proletariat offered no hope and the only option for humanity was to run away and escape somehow.
In the case of Zerzan, his early work romanticizes proletarian spontaneity; on the basis of his observations of apparently new expressions of resistance in the form of worker sabotage and absenteeism, he pronounced this to be the future of class struggle.[10] In the early 1980s, the recession threw millions out of work. We might take this as the vindication of his critics' predictions about the transience of these forms of the revolt against work as viable expressions of the class struggle; for in the face of widespread unemployment how could workers commit sabotage or go absent? But instead of recognizing the setbacks to the struggle as a whole, Zerzan saw in the new unemployment figures the 'collapse' of capitalism and the 'vitality' of the revolt against work. For those who were still in jobs, work intensity increased during this period. To Zerzan, however, the most important thing, was a decline of the work-ethic. Zerzan also dismissed strikes (successful or otherwise) as being cathartic charades. His focus on attitudes allowed the perilous state of the proletariat as a movement to be overlooked.
Zerzan's unrealistic optimism is merely the flipside of the pessimism that comes with defeat.[11] But holding on to such ideas - substituting the simple negation of civilization for the determinate negation of capitalism - is not only a reflection of pessimism with current movements; it also functions to prevent adherents from connecting with these movements. The ultimate test of the primitivists' case might be its usefulness in struggles. Primitivists say they don't want to 'simply' go back (maybe they want to go back in a more 'complex' way - in a tardis, perhaps), but neither do they say much about what we should be doing now; and Perlman and Zerzan give few examples of collective struggles that seem to them to point in the right direction.[12] In the past, Perlman and Zerzan made contributions to revolutionary struggle; but whatever useful contributions Zerzan may make now do not particularly seem to flow from his theory.
For the modern primitivist, the despair of failing to locate the future in the present, and of failing to counteract the pervasiveness of production, may leave no alternative but principled suicide (possibly in the service of a bombing mission against one or other manifestation of the 'mega-machine'), or resignation before Leviathan's irresistible progress, and a search for an individual solution. Although primitivists see capital as a social relation, they seem to have lost the sense that it is a process of class struggle, not just an imposition by a powerful oppressor. Since, in their account, all praxis is alienated, how can proletarian praxis possibly offer the way out? So, for example, George Bradford, writing in Fifth Estate,[13] argues that all we can hope to do is maintain human decency, affirm moral coherence and defend 'human personhood', and hope that others do the same.
History produces its own questioners
The argument that the turn to primitivism reflects the limits of the class struggle at the present time has certain consequences for the coherence of the primitivist position. To say that primitives necessarily resisted civilization may be to project on to them the primitivist's own desires - specifically, her own antipathy to technology and 'civilized' (i.e. class) society. Primitives very likely were not conscious of their way of life as a possibility or choice in the way the modern primitivist is, and therefore would not have valued it in the same way that we might, and may not necessarily have resisted the development of the productive forces. The desire to transcend civilization seems itself to be a product of class society; the rosy view of pre-history is itself a creation of history.
The issue touches upon the definition of 'human nature'. In confronting this, we find two sorts of position in the writings of primitivists. Firstly, consistent with Marx's approach, some acknowledge that human needs and desires are indeed historical products.[14] But, for the logically pure primitivist, this is problematic because such needs and desires would therefore be an effect of the very thing they are trying to overcome; these needs would be part of history and civilization, and therefore alienated. (Recall the traditional leftist view that capitalism holds back our needs for technological progress; to the primitivist, needs like these would be part of the problem.)
Given this, primitivists often imply instead that the human needs and desires to which civilization is antithetical are ahistorical or suprahistorical.[15] Perlman says nothing explicit in his book about the precise features of this ahistorical human nature he seems to be positing, except that he "take[s] it for granted that resistance is the natural human response to dehumanization" (p. 184). The rest, we can assume, is simply the negative of his account of civilization: non-hierarchical, non-working and so on.
Again, an ahistorical 'human nature' argument against capital ('civilization', 'government' etc.) is not a new one, and we don't have to re-invent the dialectical wheel to argue against it. In fact, we can turn to some of Perlman's own work for a pretty good counter-argument. In his Introduction to Rubin's Essays on Marx's Theory of Value,[16] Perlman discusses Feuerbach's conception of human nature. As Perlman says, for Feuerbach the human essence is something isolated, unhistorical and therefore abstract. The great leap in theory beyond the bourgeois idealists made by Marx was to argue against this that "the human essence is no abstraction inherent in each single individual. In its reality it is the ensemble of the social relations." (p. 122).[17]
By contrast, then, the later Perlman makes a huge leap backwards in theory to rediscover old, bourgeois notions which define human nature in terms of certain negative desires located within each individual.[18] Similarly, Zerzan counterposes 'alienation' (be it through hierarchy, agriculture or wage labour) to an asocial humanity. His more promising early writing on absenteeism and sabotage was flawed by his inability to recognize the limits of struggle that does not become collective.[19] His more recent work centres on a critique of language, that aspect of human life which, probably more than any other, allows us to share and therefore makes us social beings.
Primitivists' conception of the essential ontological opposition as being between history (civilization) and an abstract human nature, instead of between two historically-contingent sets of interests (capital versus the proletariat), means that their critique tends to be merely a moral one. For example, as his widow and biographer states, Perlman argues that the trail-blazers of civilization did have other choices.[20] In Worker-Student Action Committees, a similarly voluntaristic theme works as a useful critique of the limits of the practice of those taking part in the events in Paris in May 1968: 'Subjectively they thought they were revolutionaries because they thought a revolution was taking place ... They were not going to initiate this process; they were going to follow the wave wherever it pushed them.' (p. 82). But, in the absence of a proper recognition of the logical-historical drives and constraints of particular modes of production, Perlman's primitivism represents the degeneration of a non-objectivist version of Marxism into a version of the anarchist critique of power, with all its obvious weaknesses: "These leaders were just bad or stupid people!' Similarly, in the case of Zerzan, language is said to have arisen not so that people could co-operate with each other, but 'for the purpose of lying" (Elements of Refusal, p. 27). So we must blame, not class interests, but people's moral failings![21]
Whose progress is it anyway?
Primitivists say little about variations and changes in climate in pre-historic times. In certain times and places, there may well have been societies like the idyll described by Perlman; but it is equally likely that other situations were nightmarish. All primitive societies relied completely on the benevolence of nature, something which could easily change; and changes in climatic conditions could wipe out thousands.
Bound up with the primitivist view of pre-history as an ideal state is the rigid distinction they draw between nature and human productive activity. What makes us human are the set of 'first order mediations' between humanity and nature: our needs, the natural world around us, our power to create, and so on. To be human is to be creative. Through 'second order mediations', these basic qualities of existence are themselves mediated by relationships - of power, alienation, exploitation and so on - between classes. Zerzan idealizes a golden age before humanity became distinct from nature only because he conflates human creative activity per se with alienated creative activity; to him, any human creative activity - any activity which affects the rest of nature - is already saturated with exploitation and alienation.
What the anti-civilization position overlooks, therefore, is the mutual constitution of humanity and (the rest of) nature: humans are part of nature, and it is their nature to humanize nature. Nature and humanity are co-defining parts of a single moving totality; both are therefore subject to change and change each other. Changes in the world may lead to new social relations among human beings - relations which may involve a different relation to that world, a different praxis and technology (such as when the Iron Age developed out of climatic changes). We are products of nature, but we also create ourselves through our own activity in shaping the world that we inhabit. While it is certainly true that to privilege 'humanity' in any of these changes may be to damage the very environment we need to live, to privilege 'the natural world' by viewing all our activity as an assault on it may be to damage humanity.
If the change from pre-history to agriculture and other innovations wasn't necessarily alienating - if the latter weren't by their nature imposed within and through social relations of domination - then the whole historical opposition Perlman and Zerzan set up between progress and its popular resistance is thrown into doubt. Evidence from history suggests that progress is by no means necessarily the expression of the powerful; rather the powerful were sometimes indifferent to progress, and the powerless were sometimes the ones who contributed to it.[22]
In Antiquity, particularly in Greek society, there was technological stagnation rather than progress. The surplus product of slave labour was used for innovations only in the sphere of civic society and the intellectual realm. Manual labour, and therefore innovations in production, were associated in the minds of the Greek ruling class with loss of liberty. Although the Romans introduced more technical developments, these were largely confined to the material improvement of cities (e.g., central heating) and the armed forces (e.g., roads) rather than the forces of production. In both cases, military conquest was preferred to economic advance through the forces of production.
In the feudal period, both lords and peasants had reasons to bring innovations to agriculture to increase production. The growing desires for amenities and luxuries in the aristocratic class as a whole, particularly from about the year 1000 onwards, motivated an expansion of supply from the countryside. Hence the introduction of the water-mill and the spread of viticulture. The peasants were motivated to create and satisfy new needs by the particular parameters of the feudal mode of production, which tied the peasant to only a certain weekly toll and fixed number of days to work: the rest of the time was their own, and could be used to improve their quality of life. Hence more and more villages came to possess forges for local production of iron tools; cereal cultivation spread; and the quality and quantity of production on the peasants' own plots increased.
The key to understanding the massive growth in productivity in the feudal period, however, was the recurrent rent struggles between peasants and landowners. Disputes over land, initiated by either pole of the feudal relationship, motivated occupation and colonization of new lands in the form of reclamation of heaths, swampland and forests for agricultural purposes. It was a continual class struggle that drove the economy forward.
Primitivism, by suggesting that the initiators of progress are always the ruling class, projects features of capitalism back into the past - as do most bourgeois theories. Previous class societies were based largely on a settled level of technology; in such societies technological change may have been resisted by the ruling classes since it might have upset settled relations of dominance. Capitalism is the only mode of production based on constantly revolutionizing technology and the means of production.
Moreover, characterizing capitalism as simply the rule of technology or the 'mega-machine' fetishizes fixed capital as a prime mover, thereby losing sight of the struggle behind the shape of the means of production. Progress within capitalism is characteristically the result of capital responding to forms of resistance. For example, in the shift to Taylorist production methods, the variables that the management scientists were having to deal with were not merely technical factors but the awkwardness and power of the workforce; this could best be controlled and harnessed as variable capital (so the scientists thought) by physically separating the job of work into its component parts and the workers along the production line so they were unable to fraternize. One of the next steps in improving output was the introduction of the 'human relations' approach, putting a human face on the factory, which was forced upon capital by worker resistance (in the form of absenteeism and sabotage) to the starkness of pure Taylorism.
Thus, we might understand progress in the forces of production not as the absolute imposition of the will of one class over another, but as the result of the class contradiction itself. If progress is in an important sense a compromise, a result of conflict - both between classes and between competing capitals - then some of its effects might be positive. We might hate capitalism, but most of us can think of capitalist technologies we'd like to keep to meet our present and future needs (though not as commodities, of course) - be it mountain bikes, light bulbs or word processors. This is consistent with our immediate experience of modern capitalism, which isn't simply imposed upon us monolithically, but has to reflect our own wishes in some way. After all, isn't the essence of the spectacle the recuperation of the multiplicity of our own desires? Therefore it is not some abstract progress which we want to abolish, but the contradictory progress we get in class society. The process of communism entails the reappropriation and radical, critical transformation of that created within the alienated social relations of capitalism. To hold that the problem is essentially technology itself is a mystification; human instruments are not out of our control within capitalism because they are instruments (any more than our own hands are necessarily out of our control), but because they are the instruments of capital - and therefore of reified, second-order mediations.
Given all this, the argument by Wildcat[23] - that IF the productive forces need to be developed to a sufficient degree to make communism possible, and IF these forces are not developed sufficiently now, THEN revolutionaries might have to support their further development - applies only to Marxist objectivism rather than to the version of Marx's project we are trying to develop. At any time, the revolutionary supports the opposition to capital (and, by extension, takes the side of any communist tendency in any class society). Actions by the opposition to capital can force concessions from capital, making further successful resistance possible both subjectively (confidence, ideas of possibility etc.) and objectively (pushing capital beyond itself, weakening its mechanisms of control etc.). 'Progress' often describes the deferment of this revolutionary process, as the mode of production is forced to change its form: look at the way the class compromise of the post-war settlement entailed the development of new production and accumulation methods in the form of Fordism. In their attack on progress, Wildcat mistake the shadows for the substance of the fight.
Good and bad Marx
Perlman and Camatte certainly knew their Marx, and developed their early, more promising, revolutionary theory through a confrontation with him. But Against His-story and much of Zerzan's work recommend no such constructive confrontation; rather they encourage a simplistic and dismissive attitude by characterizing Marx as merely a nineteenth century advocate of progress. From that perspective, any apparently radical critique of Marx is welcomed, including that of postmodernist scumbags like Baudrillard. (The Mirror of Production, a book by the media darling and recuperator of situationist ideas, which groups Marx with the rest of the 'modernist' has-beens, is promoted in the primitivist-influenced Fifth Estate periodical.)
A critique of Marx and Marxism is certainly necessary, but primitivism (like postmodernism) is merely the ideologization of such a critique. The anti-civilization position is not just a necessary attack on leftism, but a counter-productive attack on everything in Marx. In defending some version of Marx against primitivism, we certainly need to acknowledge the problems in attempting to separate from some of its own consequences a theory which sought not merely to interpret the world but to change it. However, some of the primitivist critics seem to simply fit Marx up rather than attempt to understand some of the limitations of his theory. For example, Zerzan's critique of Marx claims to link Marx's practice with the supposed problems of this theory. But the critique consists almost entirely of a list of Marx's personal shortcomings and says virtually nothing about his theory.[24]
At least Wildcat bother to dig out some quotes from Marx, which they then use as evidence in a critique of (their reading of) Marx's theory. From the Grundrisse, they find a quote to show that Marx thought that capitalist progress and thus alienation was a necessary step to the full development of the individual;[25] and from the Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy they quote Marx's well-known statement declaring that the development of the productive forces is the precondition for communism.[26] These kinds of theoretical statements they link to Marx's failings in practice, in particular his support for the American Civil War. In response, we might pick out a dozen more quotes from different texts by Marx - or even from the same texts Wildcat draw upon - to show the importance he placed on proletarian subjectivity and self-activity; and we might link these with his important and innovatory contributions to revolutionary practice, such as his support for the Silesian uprising and the Paris Commune.
But a mere selection (or even an aggregation) of quotes from Marx is not an analysis. If we think there is anything useful in Marx's work, we could try to locate his limits and contradictions in their historical context rather than in the person of Marx in abstraction.[27] As Debord argued, Marx's limits and contradictions reflect those of the workers' movement of the time. The economistic element in Marx's theory - exemplified in writings such as Capital - was merely one facet of his project as a whole. When the struggle appeared to be at its most promising, the totality and hence the subjective came to the fore in Marx's theory (as in the case of the overall content and direction of the Grundrisse); but in the face of setbacks Marx was reduced to scientistic justifications. It was also important rhetorically, of course, to foresee the inevitability of the communist revolution in the maturation of capitalism (as in The Communist Manifesto, for example). Understanding Marx this way allows us to critically develop his revolutionary theory in the direction of communism rather than leading us simply to dump it as a whole uncritically.[28]
In an important sense, Marx was simply describing his observation that the development of the forces of production in the end brought communism closer through the proletarianization of the population. It is also true that at times he was an advocate of such development. But the main point is that such advocacy of capitalist progress does not flow from his theoretical premises in the clear cut way the primitivists would have us believe. Productivism is one trajectory from his work; this is the one taken up by the Soviet Marxists and other objectivists in their narrow, scientistic reading. But, taking his project as a whole, Marx's theory also points to the active negation of capital through thoroughgoing class struggle on all fronts.
Theory, history and future
In approaches to history, there is an important difference between looking to it for a communist ideal and attempting to understand why previous communist tendencies have failed - and thus why we have more chance than the Luddites, millenarian peasants, classical workers' movement etc. But in order to go beyond these previous tendencies, we also need to interrogate the present and the future. What new developments in technology call forth new unities within the working class? Do changes to the means of communication enable those engaged in struggles to understand and act more effectively upon their global significance?
To grasp present trends, we need more than the radical anthropology offered by primitivists. We need theory that allows us to understand the historical specificity of struggles. Capitalism is the most dynamic of class societies; the proletariat is the only revolutionary class that seeks to abolish itself and all classes. There are therefore many features of the present epoch of class struggle that are lost in the simple gloss 'civilization'. In order to struggle effectively, to understand the possible directions of struggles and the limits of particular ideologies within struggles, we need to develop - not reject - the categories Marx derived to grasp the capital relation and the process of its negation.
'Primitivism' is itself a product of a particular period of capitalist history. The same setbacks that have encouraged postmodernism among radicals in the academic realm have helped produce primitivism in circles of activists. One merely describes 'the end of History', the other actively calls for such an end; both are an inverted form of liberal idealism which reject the traditional liberal faith in capitalist progress.
However, if primitivism was, like postmodernism, simply a complacent expression by well-paid academics of the defeat of industrial class struggles then we wouldn't bother giving it space in these pages. All of us are forced to make a response to increased pollution and environmental destruction brought about by the growth of the alien power that is capital; primitivism is, at best, an attempt to engage in struggles around these kind of issues. The alarming and compelling new appearance of the fundamental problematic of alienation, in the form of world-wide environmental destruction for profit, has encouraged new forms of resistance (particularly in the U.S.A.), and these new forms seek ideas. Marxism, identified with the old forms (of both capital and its resistance), is seen to fail in the eyes of this new wave of resisters - hence the appeal of a radical alternative, such as primitivism. But the problem of primitivism lies in a flawed diagnosis of the problem of Marxism: the essential problem in Marx and Marxism is not the belief in progress, but objectivism.[29] A revolutionary theory adequate to the struggle needed at the present time must therefore start with a critique of the objectivism of previous revolutionary theories.[30]


[1] Worker-Student Action Committees (http://www.geocities.com/%7Ejohngray/peractil.htm) (Detroit: Black & Red), p. 85.

[2] Wildcat, 17, Spring 1994.

[3] The argument is based on M. Sahlins's Stone Age Economics (London: Tavistock, 1974), which suggests that stone age types had 'what they wanted' in abundance.

[4] Against His-story, p. 18.

[5] If 'overpopulation' by human beings is seen as the problem, the solution might be to call for the annihilation of 99.99% of the human race to return the other 0.01% to the state of nature, a rather problematic conclusion for someone who is supposed to be on the side of the human race against Leviathan: for, after all, who will decide who should make up the privileged 0.01%?

[6] J. Zerzan, Elements of Refusal (Seattle: Left Bank Books, 1988).

[7] J. Zerzan, Future Primitive and other Essays (New York: Autonomedia, 1994).

[8] The historians E.P. Thompson, Eric Hobsbawm and Christopher Hill are prime examples of people who, because of the separation of past from present, are/were able to pursue a revolutionary historiography within academia alongside a merely reformist political practice.

[9] Lorraine Perlman, Having Little, Being Much: A Chronicle of Fredy Perlman's Fifty Years (Detroit: Black & Red, 1989), p. 91.

[10] See The Refusal of Work (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2379/row.htm), Echanges et Mouvement (1979).

[10] Wildcat's position too seems to be tied up with a pessimism that comes from the low point of the struggle: 'it is difficult at present to see how the New World Order of Madonna and MacDonald's [sic] contains its own negation' (Wildcat, 17, p. 16). The all-or-nothing approach that is characteristic of varieties of ultra-leftism swings fixedly from unreasonable optimism to despair; when resistance is strong, it seems to make sense to see the proletariat as attempting always to express spontaneous revolutionary tendencies, which are hampered only by leftism and the unions. But when the resistance is defeated, there seems to be nothing left - hence the appeal of a diametrically opposite extreme position.

[12] In the same way, Rousseau was aware that his moral critique of civilization did not point to any practical solution.

[13] 'The Triumph of Capital', Fifth Estate (http://www.fifthestate.org/), Spring 1992.

[14] "Needs are created by human society, along with the means to satisfy them." (Wildcat, 17, p. 16).

[15] Freud argued that the essence of civilization was the sublimation of (socially unacceptable) pre-existing drives. In seeing an opposition between civilization and the full and unadulterated expression of human desires, Perlman and Zerzan agree with Freud; the only difference is that Freud thought much of civilization was good. S. Freud (1930) 'Civilization and its Discontents' in A. Dickson ed., Pelican Freud Library 12 (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1985).

[16] I.I. Rubin (1928) Essays on Marx's Theory of Value (http://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/rubin/), trans. M. Samardzija & F. Perlman, (Detroit: Black & Red, 1972).

[17] Marx, 'Theses on Feuerbach', in C. Arthur ed., The German Ideology (Student Edition), (London: Lawrence & Wishart, 1974).

[18] An example of the drive to expand civilization and the productive forces being located in the psychology of individuals rather than in the totality of social relations comes in Against His-story when Perlman attributes the conquest of primitives by Europeans to the latter's 'resentment' of those who seem to be free (p. 267).

[19] See the debate in The Refusal of Work (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2379/row.htm).

[20] L. Perlman, op. cit.

[21] The moral undertone in the critique of civilization resonates with the puritanically moral conceptions of human needs held by many eco-anarchist types, who tell their comrades that the latter 'don't really need' some of the things they desire, and who attempt to specify to them 'all the things we really need' - usually a spartan list reflecting historically-contingent notions of 'biological necessities'.

[22] Descriptions based on Perry Anderson, Passages from Antiquity to Feudalism (London: NLB, 1974).

[23] Wildcat, 17, p. 11.

[24] 'The Practical Marx' (1979) in Elements of Refusal. The style seems typical of Zerzan whose articles are frequently made up of a collection of quotes and empirical snippets with little analysis.

[25] Wildcat, 17, p. 24.

[26] Ibid., pp. 9-10.

[27] The irony of Zerzan's pseudo-critique is that he could find legitimate reason for making a valid criticism of Marx simply by opening Volume I of Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/) where the Luddites are dismissed as 'reactionary'. Marx contradicts himself in the 'missing sixth chapter' of the same volume ('Results of the Immediate Process of Production' (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/index.htm)) by characterizing technology not as a neutral object but as the very agent of the worker's alienation and therefore a proper target of rational class hatred.

[28] On this point of developing Marx using Marx's method, see G. Debord, The Society of the Spectacle (http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/), (London: Practical Paradise Publications, 1967), A. Negri, Marx beyond Marx, (New York: Autonomedia, 1994) and F.C. Shortall, The Incomplete Marx (http://www.endpage.com/Archives/Subversive_Texts/OddBooks/) (Aldershot: Avebury, 1994). It is true that the question of ecology which concerns primitivists remains neglected even in these relatively recent developments. Again, however, it is only by understanding the historical context of this neglect in Marx and others that we might develop revolutionary theory instead of merely counterposing it to an ecological approach.

[29] The primitivist George Bradford suggests that the only way that capital and the mega-machine will be destroyed is through the weight of their own complexity - in other words through an objective process of decline. A mere critique of 'progress' is an inadequate critique of objectivism (and hence an inadequate grasp of the subjective) and so reproduces further objectivism.

[30] See 'Decadence' (http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_4_dec3.html) article in this issue and Aufheben 2 (http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/2.html) and 3 (http://www.prole.info/texts/%3CA%20href=)

http://www.prole.info/texts/civilization.html

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th April 2008, 17:15
Nobody gives a shit.

Jazzratt
7th April 2008, 19:39
Who signed these nutters out of their asylums?

Ultra-Violence
8th April 2008, 23:07
^^^^
AHAHAHAH good shit here


Primitivist NEED TO GET THE FUCK OF THE PLANET!


but on a seroius not this is a problem especaily in america you got a bunch of dumb ass kids and people who want to blow shit up and free animals very bad for the rest of us who are trying to make a diff. and i blame alot of it on the anarcho punk scene with the whole animal liberation front what the hell is that!

Kropotesta
8th April 2008, 23:20
^^^^
AHAHAHAH good shit here


Primitivist NEED TO GET THE FUCK OF THE PLANET!


but on a seroius not this is a problem especaily in america you got a bunch of dumb ass kids and people who want to blow shit up and free animals very bad for the rest of us who are trying to make a diff. and i blame alot of it on the anarcho punk scene with the whole animal liberation front what the hell is that!
i listen and dress anarcho punk and also support the ALF, does this make me a primmie? :rolleyes:
and don't know about you but from where I am ALF action and anarchism aren't really confused between them.

mykittyhasaboner
8th April 2008, 23:55
i listen and dress anarcho punk and also support the ALF, does this make me a primmie? :rolleyes:
and don't know about you but from where I am ALF action and anarchism aren't really confused between them.
no it does not. the anarcho punk scene/veganism/animal liberation front has nothing to do with advocating primitivism. theres nothing "reactionary" or "primitivist" about respecting animals and nature.

Bud Struggle
9th April 2008, 02:09
theres nothing "reactionary" or "primitivist" about respecting animals and nature.


I don't know.

Do you feel that all life on earth is "equal?" Or do you see humans as beings completely apart from the other animals?

mykittyhasaboner
9th April 2008, 02:49
I don't know.

Do you feel that all life on earth is "equal?" Or do you see humans as beings completely apart from the other animals? i see all life as equal

Bright Banana Beard
9th April 2008, 02:53
I don't know.

Do you feel that all life on earth is "equal?" Or do you see humans as beings completely apart from the other animals?

The thing is, we not going to worship animal. We can treat them better but we decide to stick with "good old" traditional "time."

If they feel pain, we can find a way to quickly kill them without making a pain signal appears. Sadly, the production is still too slow to make humane trap, but at least it growing and we should embrace to respect life instead of making fun of them just because they don't come with it.

Joby
9th April 2008, 03:11
i see all life as equal

Really? The weeds growing in your lawn are equal to your neighbor?

abbielives!
9th April 2008, 03:33
Why is a CRITIQUE of primitivism in opposing ideologies?:confused:

Ultra-Violence
9th April 2008, 23:09
i listen and dress anarcho punk and also support the ALF, does this make me a primmie? :rolleyes:
and don't know about you but from where I am ALF action and anarchism aren't really confused between them.


ALF for all i know can fucking die! its fucking insulting! and i'll tell you why! fucking 2 million people in prison in america the biggest prison population made up mostly of colored people majority being black males and Fucking ALF and ELF fucking go burn down cottages in the moutains and Free animals from labs how fuckig revolutionary! go free the people in prison! they need to be freed! go fucking blow up bill gates house or something! pretty pathetic and were im from all these god dang crusty kids will throw themselves infront of a bus for a god dang cat but when it comes down for the people their nowhere to found!

Kropotesta
10th April 2008, 10:25
ALF for all i know can fucking die! its fucking insulting! and i'll tell you why! fucking 2 million people in prison in america the biggest prison population made up mostly of colored people majority being black males and Fucking ALF and ELF fucking go burn down cottages in the moutains and Free animals from labs how fuckig revolutionary! go free the people in prison! they need to be freed! go fucking blow up bill gates house or something! pretty pathetic and were im from all these god dang crusty kids will throw themselves infront of a bus for a god dang cat but when it comes down for the people their nowhere to found!
hahahahaha you have no fucking idea about the ALF

Black Dagger
10th April 2008, 12:37
Moved to politics.

Trystan
10th April 2008, 12:59
Nobody gives a shit.

That's a very convincing critique.

Ultra-Violence
10th April 2008, 16:38
hahahahaha you have no fucking idea about the ALF


please tell me whats their to know? i seen thier vidoes and all that crap they try to kill vivsectors and send bombs to thier house etc...PATHETIC!
trust me ive been surronded by to many dang crusties not to know

Kropotesta
10th April 2008, 16:45
please tell me whats their to know? i seen thier vidoes and all that crap they try to kill vivsectors and send bombs to thier house etc...PATHETIC!
trust me ive been surronded by to many dang crusties not to know
no. your assumption that animal liberationists are all crusties is PATHETIC! as is your previous statement that all anarchists are pretty much posho's. Alot of participants of ALF action are dedicated activists.

No, I don't trust your agrument as you've allegedy been around "many dang crusties". Do you think that your the only person who has? Even so, why are you so against ALF action? The actions taken are anti-capitalist and uses of direct action, which anarchists advocate.

Ultra-Violence
11th April 2008, 02:57
Becuase Its A Fucking Insult To Me And Any Other Fucking Person Of Color!

How Dare You Put Animals Before People!

Go Free The People In Prison!
Go Fuckin Assasinate Corpate Bosses!

Theirs Nothing Anarchist About Alf!

black magick hustla
11th April 2008, 08:51
every time ALF liberates an animal i am going to eat another cow

you fucking granola eating hippies

Module
11th April 2008, 09:33
no it does not. the anarcho punk scene/veganism/animal liberation front has nothing to do with advocating primitivism. theres nothing "reactionary" or "primitivist" about respecting animals and nature.
There is something reactionary and primitivist about putting the needs of human beings behind the 'needs' of animals and the environment.
Animals and the environment should be seen as a resource to be used by human beings to make their lives better, for food, technological advancement, etc. In my opinion, anybody that doesn't allow that to happen is in opposition to free human and technological progress.
And in my opinion, animal "liberationists" are in that way reactionary.

BobKKKindle$
11th April 2008, 10:01
i see all life as equalWho says? You? If all life is equal then, given the choice between eating two chickens and killing a human being, it would be ethical to choose the latter, because the second course of action would minimize the loss of life. Is that something you would support? If you don't support it, then you are inconsistent with your belief that all life is equal.

Animals have no value beyond the utility they give the human race. Animals can be used in many ways to improve the lives of humans. We should seek to exploit Animals in as many ways as possible.

For example, the advances in medicine that have been made through the use of animals as test subjects - if we adopted the deep-ecologist position and decided that it is wrong to use animals in this way, we would not have been able to develop medicines such as the treatment for leprosy, and the potential for future medical discoveries would be limited.


If they feel pain, we can find a way to quickly kill them without making a pain signal appearsWhy should we try and avoid causing pain? What does it matter if animals feel pain? They don't have any rights, they exist to be used by us.

ckaihatsu
11th April 2008, 10:26
There is something reactionary and primitivist about putting the needs of human beings behind the 'needs' of animals and the environment.

Animals and the environment should be seen as a resource to be used by human beings to make their lives better, for food, technological advancement, etc. In my opinion, anybody that doesn't allow that to happen is in opposition to free human and technological progress.

And in my opinion, animal "liberationists" are in that way reactionary.


Here's the tricky part -- animals fall somewhere between humans and inanimate property, in terms of value. It's really a gray area, and very complicated.

I don't mind eating meat, and I do, but I also know that people could live perfectly fine lives without eating meat or using animal products at all.

I benefit from the scientific research done on animals, but at the same time I know that not all uses of animals in labs are legitimate ones, and that research suffers from all the problems of any other industry under capitalism -- exploitation of resources (animals), waste, bureaucracy, etc.

Of course I'd rather see the liberation of people before that of animals, but you can't just write off animals as simply "resources", the way inanimate objects or property are. The mirror test would demonstrate self-awareness and sentience, for higher mammals, and some would argue that all forms of animal life deserve respect, and therefore rescuing from indefensible, abusive situations.

I can't defend every animal rescue, either -- it's very much a case-by-case kind of thing. It practically behooves us to have a separate criminal justice system for every case of disputed animal caging, something I doubt the capitalist government would spring for.

So does that mean that we should be on the side of the property owners and support the prosecution of those who engage in direct action to rescue sentient life forms under questionable treatment?


Chris



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BobKKKindle$
11th April 2008, 10:36
Here's the tricky part -- animals fall somewhere between humans and inanimate property, in terms of value. It's really a gray area, and very complicated.Wrong - Animals are ethically equivalent to a lump of coal, or to any other resource that can be exploited by humans. We should take care to ensure that certain species do not become extinct - but only because these species pose benefits for humans, and so we would suffer as a result of extinction, not because they possess value that is independent of us.


The mirror test would demonstrate self-awareness and sentience
Why should these behavioral features be used as criteria for determining whether something should be accorded rights?


So does that mean that we should be on the side of the property owners and support the prosecution of those who engage in direct action to rescue sentient life forms under questionable treatment?These extremists would commit similar attacks in a socialist society, and so I see no reason to try and defend them against prosecution - even if we don't support the bourgeois apparatus.


I benefit from the scientific research done on animals, but at the same time I know that not all uses of animals in labs are legitimate ones,

Who determines what a "legitimate" use is?

ckaihatsu
11th April 2008, 11:23
Wrong - Animals are ethically equivalent to a lump of coal, or to any other resource that can be exploited by humans. We should take care to ensure that certain species do not become extinct - but only because these species pose benefits for humans, and so we would suffer as a result of extinction, not because they possess value that is independent of us.


Bob,

In strictly economic terms I would agree with you. The problem is that animals, as I'm sure you very well know, are not strictly economic items. Every day people interact with them and have found them to be intelligent, responsive, emotional, historical, and so on. I saw a documentary about Koko the gorilla, and she -- because of the attention given and relationship built -- has developed a vocabulary of scores of words, and has no trouble expressing herself and interacting meaningfully with her caregiver.

In considering primates and other higher mammals one could even go so far as to make the argument that the only differences between us and them are strictly cultural. Given the proper "education" we might even be able to give animals independent lives *and* integrate them meaningfully into the economy -- (!!!)

So -- it is too crude to consider them in strictly economic terms when we can see their *cognitive*, *affective*, and *psychomotor* abilities (Bloom's Taxonomy) in the roles of pets, and possibly much more, depending on acculturation.



Why should these behavioral features be used as criteria for determining whether something should be accorded rights?


The mirror test is no trivial test -- higher cognitively abled animals will instantly recognize themselves in a mirror, and will use it as a tool, the way we do. There's a dropoff from there, where lower-abilitied animals will *not* recognize themselves, or perhaps not at first, and they will have to adjust to understand what they're looking at. Does this make sense?



These extremists would commit similar attacks in a socialist society, and so I see no reason to try and defend them against prosecution - even if we don't support the bourgeois apparatus.


Well, I'd imagine a society in a transitional socialist mode would have an improved, more enlightened, humane policy toward the treatment of animals than the current capitalist one does. Perhaps we should figure out what that policy would be, exactly.

As socialists we would be neutral, at most, regarding private property rights, correct? In other words if someone happened to trespass on the grounds of a business we could care less about that. We wouldn't be yelling, "Trespass! Trespass!", even if the bourgeoisie did.

So I understand your neutrality in terms of the prosecution of the animal rights / extreme activist, but you would also be neutral towards the claims of the other side, the private property owner, as well, correct?



Who determines what a "legitimate" use is?


Exactly. As things are animals *are* considered synonymous with private property, and as we know, we as socialists do not support the concept or practice of private property. I don't mean to suggest that we need to take up isolated campaigns against land claims, but I do mean to say that we're politically indifferent to claims to private property, especially those that benefit the already wealthy.

During and after a revolution we would hopefully re-evaluate the status of animals in relation to private property.

BobKKKindle$
11th April 2008, 12:04
The mirror test is no trivial test -- higher cognitively abled animals will instantly recognize themselves in a mirror, and will use it as a tool, the way we do. There's a dropoff from there, where lower-abilitied animals will *not* recognize themselves, or perhaps not at first, and they will have to adjust to understand what they're looking at. Does this make sense?


I understand and am familiar with the test you describe - but you haven't explained why beings that are sentient should be accorded rights. Why is it that sentience is so important, that we face a moral obligation to protect the welfare of sentient beings? Does this mean we can treat non-sentient beings in whatever way we want? Why do you select sentience above other criteria which would be used to grant rights, such as the ability to feel pain?

ckaihatsu
11th April 2008, 17:20
Well, that's why it's a gray area -- I'm not attached to the sentience thing as a hard-and-fast rule -- I'm just pointing out that animals are somewhere between inanimate objects / property and human beings when it comes to value.

I suppose we could say that wherever animals are pressed into service they become more valuable, as we do as well as laborers, while their use for meat and other resources brings them down, relatively speaking, closer to vegetation and other raw materials....

cyu
11th April 2008, 23:37
Morality. What is moral? Who decides?

I think the concept of morality developed as a result of cooperative evolution. The more the people in your society cooperate, the better its chances of survival, and the systems of morality is then passed down to future generations.

As far as non-humans go, the question of morality will probably be decided by how much of a threat they are if they don't cooperate with us, and how much of a benefit they would be if they did cooperate with us.

Since the animals on this planet don't pose major threats to us, human society hasn't had the need to fit them much into our systems of morality. But say some race of aliens from outer space came along, and we could either blow each other up fighting for domination or engage in sharing of information, then these aliens will probably have a bigger role in the human concept of morality.

black magick hustla
12th April 2008, 00:18
The whole concern for "animals' well-being" is nothing more than an urbanite/sburbanite phenomenon. Villagers who live near nature do not feel "guilty" for hunting or eating animals. Vegans, ALF hippies, and other sorts of granola eating windbags are ironically more alienated from nature than everyone else.

ckaihatsu
12th April 2008, 02:27
> Portable, Congregational Religions

> Portable religions were a third innovation that shaped subsequent human history as profoundly as bureaucratic government and alphabetic writing have done. Religions had previously been local. Each people's gods were believed to protect (and punish) those who worshipped them.

[...]

> Judaism and Zoroastrianism were universal, portable religions, worshipping a just, stern God whose jurisdiction extended over the whole earth. Both also relied on revealed, sacred scriptures to define a moral code for believers. Mutual support and peaceable behavior toward strangers were other important aspects of the new faiths.

> In subsequent centuries, urban dwellers, and particularly poor, marginal persons, found that authoritative religious guidance, shared faith, and mutual support among congregations of believers could substitute for the tight-knit custom of village existence (within which the rural majority continued to live) and give meaning and value to ordinary lives, despite daily contact with uncaring strangers. Such religious congregations, in turn, helped to stabilize urban society by making its inherent inequality and insecurity more tolerable.

> J.R. McNeill & William McNeill, _The Human Web -- A Bird's-Eye View of World History_, pp. 60-61

ckaihatsu
12th April 2008, 21:21
I can't defend every animal rescue, either -- it's very much a case-by-case kind of thing. It practically behooves us to have a separate criminal justice system for every case of disputed animal caging, something I doubt the capitalist government would spring for.


NOTE: Just wanted to issue a clarification here -- in my previous post I did not mean to imply that the capitalist criminal justice system is really about criminals or justice -- I understand that it's a tool of oppression used against people of color and the poor, while wealthy white males are virtually insulated from it.


Chris





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Cencus
13th April 2008, 01:54
The whole concern for "animals' well-being" is nothing more than an urbanite/sburbanite phenomenon.

Funnily enough when I used to be a hunt sab, long time back, many of the local villagers would offer us support as long as we were out of sight of the hunt/hunt supporters. Surveys done before the the fox hunting ban in the U.K. showed a fair amount of support in rural areas.

I certainly don't agree that we should put animals above humans, hell I'm on 5 different medications to keep me going, but I think we should where possible reduce animal suffering. That doesn't mean forced vegetarianism, I like my meat.

It's an emotive issue that gets folks on both sides going, but to me it's a case that I don't like to see anything suffer, but they way we are now that suffering is neccessary to a degree.

Dunno if that lot makes sense :)

Keyser
16th April 2008, 17:19
I have made a post on my views and criticism of green anarchism, of both the primitivist and deep ecology variants, in another thread titled Green Anarchism in the Learning forum.


Green anarchism is made up of two different, yet at times, complementary schools of thought, deep green/ecology and primitivism.

Both are reactionary, socially regressive, anti-working class and petty bourgeois and in primitivism, outright misanthropic in their theory and practice.

Green anarchism is anti-working class for the reason that unlike class struggle anarchism, such as anarcho-communism or anarcho-syndicalism, it is anti-collectivist and promotes a form of hyper-individualism in promoting the actions of a few activists working on a very narrow set of issues and politics over class based politics, a class based struggle of an oppressed class (the working class) against the exploiting class (the bourgeoisie) and rejects a materialistic analysis of society and class struggles in favour of romantisizing the 'heroism' of a few individuals who are wholly detached and isolated from the working class, their struggles and their concerns. This in part can be explained by the fact that both schools of thought of green anarchism are primarily the manifestation of either petty bourgeois or outright bourgeois outlooks on society and the problems facing society.

Anyone who has interacted with the likes of green anarchist groups such as Earth First (I am speaking of their British section based on personal experience) will see very few, if any in some cases, evidence of working class support for their groups or working class members.

There are two reasons for this:

Green anarchist groups tend not to either recruit or gain the support of working class people and if they do it is sporadic and never on the basis of mobilising or organising the workers as a class that wages a militant struggle against the rule of capital. This is because, as I have already stated above, green anarchism and it's theory does not acknowledge that there is even a class struggle and they do not consider the working class to be the revolutionary class, the only class able to abolish the rule of capital. The fact that green anarchist groups tend to be made up primarily of petty bourgeois or lumpen ('lifestlye anarchists' who choose unemployment and refuse to involve themselves with the working class or society) individuals is the materialistic explanation for the reactionary and anti-working class ideology and theory that forms and guides all green anarchist groups.

Another reason, again one could say it also forms a materialistic explanation to this, is that the working class would not improve their lot nor would they be liberated by either the methods and theories of politics that green anarchism advocates nor would they actually be better off in a post-capitalist green anarchist society, as with the rest of society, their quality of life would be reduced on a dramatic basis, this is especially true of primitivism.

The working class, either conscienciously or unconscienciously, correctly sees that their material class interests cannot be served by green anarchism in the struggle against capital and that the type of society that green anarchism aspires to is one that they would not wish to be a part of.

Earth First is a good example of the common trait of anti-human feeling and misanthropy that seems to be inherent in the whole edifice of the green anarchist movement.

Below is a quote by a leading member of Earth First, David Foreman:

Quote:
"The worst thing we could do in Ethiopia is to give aid [to the starving children]--the best thing would be to just let nature seek its own balance, to let people there just starve."


Below is a quote by another deep green misanthropist and a biologist at the University of Texas, Eric Pianka:

Quote:
"We’re no better than bacteria! Things are gonna get better after the collapse, because we won’t be able to decimate the Earth so much, I actually think the world will be much better when there’s only 10 or 20 percent of us left."

In all his other lectures and seminars, Eric Pianka has made a name for himself amongst green anarchism, misanthropy and the acedemic community by consistently calling for the extermination of 90% of the human race and has praised the Ebola virus when it broke out in the Congo (formerly Zaire) in 1995.

Should primitivists and the misanthropic section of the deep ecology movement ever have their nightmare scenario put into practice, we would witness a genocide on a proporption that would supercede all other genocides in human history, including the Nazi holocaust, for the death toll would run into the billions, most likely above the five billion mark.

This deep and inherent hatred of humans by primitivists and some deep ecologists is a natural formulation and one could say a logical conclusion to the ideologies of both schools of thought of green anarchism.

One common trait by green anarchists is to reject rationalism and science, to reject logic and material analysis. Green anarchists replace rationalism, science, logic and material analysis with mysticism and a retarded worship of 'nature'. The countless references to 'Mother Earth', the 'Earth Goddess' and the allure of all things 'wild' is a reflection of this retarded mysticism that green anarchists propagate.

Inanimate entities such as the Earth and ecosystems and unquantifiable and abstract notions such as nature are given the mysticsm that is usually conferred to gods and deities by green anarchism. Nature and the earth are to be either worshiped or feared and not understood through rational analysis or science, goes the line of thought that green anarchism propagates.

No doubt the logic of this retarded ideal sees human beings as a plague or an infestation of parasites that feeds and sucks of the life of 'Mother Earth' or 'Mother Nature'. Like the anti-semitism of the Nazi's (who saw the Jewish people as a 'parasitic plague') the end result of green anarchism is to rid the earth of this 'plague' or humans and like the Nazi's in relation to the Jews, that means a genocide.

Whether each and every individual member of the green anarchist movement supports this bloody conclusion or not is completely irrelevant as material conditions and the demands of the theory and ideology of green anarchism will lead to such a bloody and murderous conclusion.

Like other socially regressive, reactionary, anti-emancipatory and anti-working class ideologies, be it fascism, racism, nationalism, religious fundamentalism or tribalism, green anarchism seeks to turn the clock back of human progress and like all the other reactionary ideologies, it hates progress and opposes any and allattempts by human beings and human societies to improve and evolve.

On a final note, I wholly oppose all forms and all schools of thought of green anarchism.

It is a thoroughly reactionary and regressive trend that will never oppose capitalism or challenge the power and status of capitalism and should it ever have the opportunity to put it's horrific and anti-human ideas into practice, society will only ever regress into barbarism and the lowest froms of human existence.

Green anarchists are no friends of the working class or the revolutionary struggle, they are not my comrades, they sit on the side of the class enemy and like the bourgeoisie, they must be opposed and crushed.

Keyser
16th April 2008, 18:38
i listen and dress anarcho punk


That has nothing to do with politics at all.

Those people that define themselves and their politics by their sense of dress, the music they listen to, how much they consume or if they take drugs, in short those who measure their politics by their lifestyle, are lifestylists and sadly lifestylism seems rather widespread amongst supposed revolutionaries.

In the class struggle, the only thing that counts is your relationship to the means of production and which side you take, either the side of of the bourgeoisie or the working class.



and also support the ALF, does this make me a primmie?


Whether the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) is a primitivist organisation or not is the topic for another thread.

What I do not doubt is that there are primitivists within the ranks of the ALF.

Not necessarily, but it does make you a misanthrope as the ALF and it's ideology is essentially one of anti-humanism and the elevation of inferior animal species and nature to the same level as humans, sometimes elevating animals and nature above humans.


and don't know about you but from where I am ALF action and anarchism aren't really confused between them.

Then you have no idea on what class struggle anarchism is.

Class struggle anarchism (anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism) are revolutionary and progressive and even though I am not an anarchist myself and have my disagreements with and criticisms of class struggle anarchists, I do consider them to be a progressive force and comrades in the class struggle agasinst the rule of the bourgeoisie and capital.

The ALF, like the ELF, Earth First, primitivism, Crimthinc and post-leftist anarchism are all trends of a petty bourgeois nature that reject the working class and the class struggle, thus they cannot oppose the rule of capital and the bourgeoisie and their rejection of the working class and the concept of class struggle means that they thus negate revolutionary social change.

The rise of this reactionary and anti-working class trend in the anarchist movement is in part a reflection of the wider crisis that the revolutionary left and the working class now finds itself in this era of intense political and social reaction and a era of a very low ebb in the class struggle.

In times of intense reaction the working class movement and the revolutionary left will themselves fall victim to ideas and theories that are bourgeois or petty bourgeois in nautre and thus retard and regress progressive and revolutionary politics.


no it does not. the anarcho punk scene/veganism/animal liberation front has nothing to do with advocating primitivism.

Maybe not but the ALF will include primitivists within it's ranks and at times deep green/green anarchists will overlap with primitivists, given that both are reactionary and hold to certain degrees misanthropic views.


theres nothing "reactionary" or "primitivist" about respecting animals and nature.

This is not whatthe ALF is about, it elevates animals to exactly the same level as humans. They are very serious about that and they would would really consider that at times humans should be either killed or should suffer in order to 'protect' animals.

They are reactionary in the extreme.


i see all life as equal

All humans are equal, but to extend that view to all lifeforms actually condemns the whole idea of human equality to accomodate the reactionary view that a dog or a fly have equal right to life and freedom from suffering as much as a human being.


hahahahaha you have no fucking idea about the ALF

Maybe Unicorn does not have a good knowledge of the ALF, but a lot of people do and they know of it's reactionary, thuggish and misanthropic nature.


no. your assumption that animal liberationists are all crusties is PATHETIC!

I actually agree with you here.

Crusties are generally drugged out, unwashed, incompetent and usually cannot organise or challenge anything.

The ALF are hardened thugs with a good track record of violent attacks against innocent people.

A comparison with the likes of Loyalist paramilitary gangs or Combat18 would actually be a more fitting comparison.


Alot of participants of ALF action are dedicated activists.

A wholly irrelevant point.

Being a "dedicated activist" is something that can equally apply to reactionary and bourgeois individuals as much as it can apply to progressive revolutionaries.

I am sure that the rank and file of the Nazi Party or the rank and file of Al-Qaeda are "dedicated activists", it means nothing.

Again this is a common trait amongst post-leftist 'anarchists' such as the ALF, they ignore politics and theory and simply measure everything according to activism and action and it is typical of their petty bourgeois outlook, they have rejected the class struggle and the working class and thus they instead celebrate individual acts of direct action and at times terrorism as 'heroic' by small bands of isolated individuals.

It is the politics of petty bourgeois reaction, not working class liberation and revolution.


Even so, why are you so against ALF action?

Because the ALF is a band of thugs that reject the working class and their class struggle aginst the rule of capital and instead carry out acts of violence against innocent people in defence of a misanthropic and anti-human crusade of animal 'rights'.


The actions taken are anti-capitalist

They are not anti-capitalist in the progressive sense.

To overthrow capitalism, that task can only be done by the organisation of the working class for revolution to overthrow their class enemy, the bourgeoisie.

Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, the Dalai Lama, the Khmer Rogue, primitivists etc all make arguements against capitalism.

But what do they want to replace it with?

Certainly not a socialist or communist society with the hegmony of the working class in struggle and the complete freedom of all people from exploitation and a true equality of all humans to live in a world of plenty and comfort.

Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, the Dalai Lama and other fundamentalists want to go back to a feudal theocratic despotism based on a serfdom or slave based economy.

Pol Pot himself demonstrated what type of anti-capitalism the Khmer Rogue stood for, a rural based slave state of mass terror.

Primitivists wish to go back to the era of barbaric tribes that existed before the rise of agricultural societies.

These are all anti-capitalists only in the sense that they are anti-modernist and anti-progress, they are thus reactionary.

Capitalism is way more preferable to all people, the working class included, if the choice is between capitalism or some serf or slave based feudal despotism or a stone age society, then capitalism is so much more progressive.

Communists, socialists and class struggle anarchists simply have the task of going along the path of progress to destroy capitalism and create a socialist or communist society of freedom and human equality.



and uses of direct action, which anarchists advocate


Direct action is simply a tactic that can be used by any political ideologies or group, it is not simply the preserve of revolutionaries or the class struggle.

Direct action can be used for progressive or reactionary causes.

chegitz guevara
16th April 2008, 19:44
I understand and am familiar with the test you describe - but you haven't explained why beings that are sentient should be accorded rights. Why is it that sentience is so important, that we face a moral obligation to protect the welfare of sentient beings? Does this mean we can treat non-sentient beings in whatever way we want? Why do you select sentience above other criteria which would be used to grant rights, such as the ability to feel pain?

Well hell, why should we grant rights to humans then? Why shouldn't we see them solely as means to be exploited by other humans and to be be discarded when they are no longer useful?

Human rights and rights for animals arise from the same place, human capacity for sympathy and empathy with other living beings. We can recognize in others a kindred spirit, and realize that they would not want to be treated in a way that degrades them, hurts them, etc. Now, for the most part, humans are able to communicate this easily to one another, i.e., don't taze me, bro. So if the other human doesn't speak my language, I'm free to ignore his rights? Animals can communicate their wants and needs. They try not to be hurt and will fight back if they have to.

I do not, however, non-human animals shouldn't have the same rights as humans. I'm not about to privilege any amount of chickens lives over a single human life. Neither, on the other hand, do I think we should be torturing them for our own amusement. Cock fighting is immoral. We ought not support it just because it gives some humans pleasure, and to hell with the roosters' well being.

Kropotesta
16th April 2008, 21:02
That has nothing to do with politics at all.

Those people that define themselves and their politics by their sense of dress, the music they listen to, how much they consume or if they take drugs, in short those who measure their politics by their lifestyle, are lifestylists and sadly lifestylism seems rather widespread amongst supposed revolutionaries.

In the class struggle, the only thing that counts is your relationship to the means of production and which side you take, either the side of of the bourgeoisie or the working class.

Good one mate, I was being sarcastic. I do actually know that clothes and music don't set out political ideas and beliefs.




Whether the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) is a primitivist organisation or not is the topic for another thread.

What I do not doubt is that there are primitivists within the ranks of the ALF.
OK....you do know that the ALF isn't an organisation?


Not necessarily, but it does make you a misanthrope as the ALF and it's ideology is essentially one of anti-humanism and the elevation of inferior animal species and nature to the same level as humans, sometimes elevating animals and nature above humans.
no, ALF does not put animals above humans but instead show that animals have their own lives.



Then you have no idea on what class struggle anarchism is.

Class struggle anarchism (anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism) are revolutionary and progressive and even though I am not an anarchist myself and have my disagreements with and criticisms of class struggle anarchists, I do consider them to be a progressive force and comrades in the class struggle agasinst the rule of the bourgeoisie and capital.


The ALF, like the ELF, Earth First, primitivism, Crimthinc and post-leftist anarchism are all trends of a petty bourgeois nature that reject the working class and the class struggle, thus they cannot oppose the rule of capital and the bourgeoisie and their rejection of the working class and the concept of class struggle means that they thus negate revolutionary social change.

how does that mean I don't no what class struggle anarchism is? haha
You know what? ALF and ELF ain't organisations but do have people committing such actions committed to the class struggle.



Maybe not but the ALF will include primitivists within it's ranks and at times deep green/green anarchists will overlap with primitivists, given that both are reactionary and hold to certain degrees misanthropic views.
Again, ALF is NOT an organisation. At least know what you're on about.
Misanthropic? ALFers don't necssarily hate humans.




This is not whatthe ALF is about, it elevates animals to exactly the same level as humans. They are very serious about that and they would would really consider that at times humans should be either killed or should suffer in order to 'protect' animals.

They are reactionary in the extreme.
If you actually knew your stuff, then you'd know that anything that harms a person in the process isn't considered ALF.




All humans are equal, but to extend that view to all lifeforms actually condemns the whole idea of human equality to accomodate the reactionary view that a dog or a fly have equal right to life and freedom from suffering as much as a human being.
reactionary is somewhat of a buzz word for you, ain't it?




Maybe Unicorn does not have a good knowledge of the ALF, but a lot of people do and they know of it's reactionary, thuggish and misanthropic nature.
well you can also add yourself to that list then with Unicorn.





Crusties are generally drugged out, unwashed, incompetent and usually cannot organise or challenge anything.

The ALF are hardened thugs with a good track record of violent attacks against innocent people.

A comparison with the likes of Loyalist paramilitary gangs or Combat18 would actually be a more fitting comparison.
do you actually like being wrong?




A wholly irrelevant point.

Being a "dedicated activist" is something that can equally apply to reactionary and bourgeois individuals as much as it can apply to progressive revolutionaries.

I am sure that the rank and file of the Nazi Party or the rank and file of Al-Qaeda are "dedicated activists", it means nothing.

Again this is a common trait amongst post-leftist 'anarchists' such as the ALF, they ignore politics and theory and simply measure everything according to activism and action and it is typical of their petty bourgeois outlook, they have rejected the class struggle and the working class and thus they instead celebrate individual acts of direct action and at times terrorism as 'heroic' by small bands of isolated individuals.

It is the politics of petty bourgeois reaction, not working class liberation and revolution.
ok....the ALF aren't an anarchist group. Ignore politics and theory? you're pretty ignorant right? you can commit ALF action and be a class struggler.
By dedicated activists, I was speaking of class struggle activists. I thought would be self-explanatory beens we're on a class struggle forum but appartently not.



Because the ALF is a band of thugs that reject the working class and their class struggle aginst the rule of capital and instead carry out acts of violence against innocent people in defence of a misanthropic and anti-human crusade of animal 'rights'.
are you actually working class yourself? just asking.
and yet again wrong. ALF action is not an anti-human crusade and the suggestion that it is, is pretty moronic.



These are all anti-capitalists only in the sense that they are anti-modernist and anti-progress, they are thus reactionary.

Capitalism is way more preferable to all people, the working class included, if the choice is between capitalism or some serf or slave based feudal despotism or a stone age society, then capitalism is so much more progressive.

they are anti-capitalist in the way they want to get rid of capitalism.
Also you'll find that a fair few primmies consider themselves primitive anarchist communist-esque, which existed in the stone age, opposed to these "barbaic tribes" you appear to be speaking about.




Direct action is simply a tactic that can be used by any political ideologies or group, it is not simply the preserve of revolutionaries or the class struggle.

Direct action can be used for progressive or reactionary causes.
wow! really!? :rolleyes: