"Libertarian Marxism"

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm just wondering, do we have any self-described libertarian Marxists on this board? Or is left communism basically the same thing?

Also, what would be some good things to read if I wanted to know more about this subject?

[Sickle-A]

While I'm not a libertarian Marxist myself, I think libcom.org has some good reading material...

[Dean]

I'm just wondering, do we have any self-described libertarian Marxists on this board? Or is left communism basically the same thing?

Also, what would be some good things to read if I wanted to know more about this subject?

Marxism is inherently libertarian. In any case, "Man For Himself" is a great left-libertarian piece.

[MarxSchmarx]

Marxism is inherently libertarian.

Please elaborate.

[Marsella]

I'm just wondering, do we have any self-described libertarian Marxists on this board? Or is left communism basically the same thing?

Also, what would be some good things to read if I wanted to know more about this subject?

Left communism is not libertarian communism.

Left communism is characterised by particular stances on unions, parliamentarianism and self-determination struggles...

Libertarian communism has more to do with the nature of the state (if any) in a post-revolutionary society.

But they do mix somewhat, or rather the person has left communist and libertarianism views.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Left communism is not libertarian communism.

Left communism is characterised by particular stances on unions, parliamentarianism and self-determination struggles...

Libertarian communism has more to do with the nature of the state (if any) in a post-revolutionary society.

But they do mix somewhat, or rather the person has left communist and libertarianism views.

I knew that left communism is not libertarian communism (AKA anarchism, for all intents and purposes).

I was just wondering if libertarian Marxism (from my understanding, something like what Pannekoek endorsed) is similar to "Left Communism". (Like the group of the same name on this site.)

[Dean]

Please elaborate.
Marxism seeks the abolition of all oppression, and the destruction of the state. This is the only coherant stance one can take for libertarianism, and it is reflected in Marxist views.

[The Douche]

I knew that left communism is not libertarian communism (AKA anarchism, for all intents and purposes).

I was just wondering if libertarian Marxism (from my understanding, something like what Pannekoek endorsed) is similar to "Left Communism". (Like the group of the same name on this site.)

I would say libertarian marxism includes council communism (the Pannekoek and Luxemburg styles), autonomist marxism, and possibly Bordigism.

I would also be willing to generalise that all libertarian marxists are left communists, but not all left communists are libertarian marxists.

[Marsella]

I would also be willing to generalise that all libertarian marxists are left communists, but not all left communists are libertarian marxists.

That's what I was trying to say earlier, but in a less eloquent way. :)

[Devrim]

That's what I was trying to say earlier, but in a less eloquent way. :)

Actually, I think that you were much clearer and much more correct.


I would say libertarian marxism includes council communism (the Pannekoek and Luxemburg styles), autonomist marxism, and possibly Bordigism.

Pannekoek would have disdained the term 'libertarian Marxism'. I don't know much about the Autonomists, but with the Bordigists you must be joking:

http://www.international-communist-party.org/BasicTexts/WhatDist.htm#Return%20to%20revolutionary%20Totalit arianism

Basically, the idea of 'libertarian Marxism' is an anarchist invention as a term for Marxists that they like.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I was just wondering if libertarian Marxism (from my understanding, something like what Pannekoek endorsed) is similar to "Left Communism". (Like the group of the same name on this site.)

Pannekoek was a left communist. He was a member of a left communist party, the KAPD. He was not a 'libertarian Marxist' unless as pointed out above, you are an anarchist trying to lay claim to some of his ideas.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

I would say libertarian marxism includes council communism (the Pannekoek and Luxemburg styles), autonomist marxism, and possibly Bordigism.

Bordigists proudly consider themselves anti-democratic... :glare:

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I would also be willing to generalise that all libertarian marxists are left communists, but not all left communists are libertarian marxists.

I consider myself a libertarian marxist (and this has nothing to do with anarchism, which isn't even libertarian itself), and by absolutely no means a left-communist.

(btw, "libertarian marxist" is anyone who wants to be a "libertarian marxist"; but a left-communist is someone who is organised in a left-communist organisation.)

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

Bordigists proudly consider themselves anti-democratic... :glare:

Luís Henrique


In what concerns us as marxists, to hell with Democracy, to hell with the state!

-Bordiga :)

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Why have neither of you posted in our RevMarx thread on Bordiga? :(

[Djehuti]

I would not call myself a libertarian marxist, because I am not. I am an autonomist marxist (if I have to define myself beyond just "marxist" or "communist"), and inflenced by council communism and individuals such as Rosa Luxemburg.

I don't like the word "libertarian".

[Os Cangaceiros]

Pannekoek was a left communist. He was a member of a left communist party, the KAPD. He was not a 'libertarian Marxist' unless as pointed out above, you are an anarchist trying to lay claim to some of his ideas.

Devrim

I'm not trying to be subversive, here. All I'm doing is asking a question...

[Devrim]

Sorry that wasn't a "you" as in you. It was a "you" as in one. It wasn't aimed at you specifically. It was more of a general comment.

Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

I consider myself a libertarian marxist (and this has nothing to do with anarchism, which isn't even libertarian itself), and by absolutely no means a left-communist.

(btw, "libertarian marxist" is anyone who wants to be a "libertarian marxist"; but a left-communist is someone who is organised in a left-communist organisation.)

Luís Henrique

Could you elaborate on this, please.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ He said he was a "Luxemburgist."

[PRC-UTE]

^^^ He said he was a "Luxemburgist."

I recall. But I wanted to understand what Libertarian Marxist means.

[Luís Henrique]

I recall. But I wanted to understand what Libertarian Marxist means.

Someone who rejects the authoritarian deviations tied to Kautsky, Bernstein, and Lenin?

It's a loose term, in no way comparable to "Trotskyist" or "left-communist".

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Tied to Kautsky? He was a parliamentary reductionist!

Lenin? I think you got the wrong guy here. The Russian guy you're looking for is PLEKHANOV (and if you actually read our RevMarx thread on Bordiga, you'll have seen DrFreeman09's quote of Engels' reaction to that "poor man's Kautsky").

[Luís Henrique]

^^^ Tied to Kautsky? He was a parliamentary reductionist!

Maybe. Few things are more authoritarian, internally, than a good old-fashioned Social-Democratic party...


Lenin? I think you got the wrong guy here. The Russian guy you're looking for is PLEKHANOV

No; Plekhanov's sins apart, it's Lenin who's tied to "What is to be Done", democratic centralism, and the conditions for admission into the III International.

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ In regards to democratic centralism, could you please at least read my article submission on "unity in action"? I think you've got a caricature of Lenin.

[MarxSchmarx]

Marxism seeks the abolition of all oppression, and the destruction of the state. This is the only coherant stance one can take for libertarianism, and it is reflected in Marxist views.

Well, the ENDS might be libertarian, but the methods are generally agreed to not be so. In most readings, until statelessness is achieved, "individual rights" exist only at the mercy of the ruling class (proletarian or otherwise). Moreover, it OK to treat individuals as means to ends (e.g., conscription in the people's army). I don't think this is particularly libertarian, whatever they might say about their goals.